Guild Wars 2

Please redo the stat of toughness and separate from armour.

Increasing toughness cause more damage absorption, including condition damages.

NOOOOOOOOOO, do you even realize how this will ruin the game even more? Let me explain, if I’m using a condi build, I tend to have lots of toughness with stats like dire, celestial, rabid etc. If it reduces condi dmg, then everyone would just build condi because you can tank everything and do dmg. Games would be boring as kitten cause no one ever dies. Right now celestial users (meta) already take forever to kill, no more buffs pls.

Why?

15charsss

If Toughness reduced condition damage, Knight’s becomes the best gear set in the game for PvP. Decent damage, but the highest damage reduction.

Conditions right now are the counter to armor-stacking builds. Make Toughness effective against them and you literally would have one build to rule them all.

Then they could get rid of condi removal too. That would be balanced. /sarcasm

IchigoHatake.5098:

NOOOOOOOOOO, do you even realize how this will ruin the game even more? Let me explain, if I’m using a condi build, I tend to have lots of toughness with stats like dire, celestial, rabid etc. If it reduces condi dmg, then everyone would just build condi because you can tank everything and do dmg. Games would be boring as kitten cause no one ever dies. Right now celestial users (meta) already take forever to kill, no more buffs pls.

As the stat of toughness have to redo, the stat of gears have to change too. All gears should be high damage but low toughness and vice versa.

Now, the whole forum is crying every class is OP because different kind of damages are too over. It can’t be solved by skill balance without end. Only introducing new toughness stat can solve the problem.

Guyver.1426:

IchigoHatake.5098:

NOOOOOOOOOO, do you even realize how this will ruin the game even more? Let me explain, if I’m using a condi build, I tend to have lots of toughness with stats like dire, celestial, rabid etc. If it reduces condi dmg, then everyone would just build condi because you can tank everything and do dmg. Games would be boring as kitten cause no one ever dies. Right now celestial users (meta) already take forever to kill, no more buffs pls.

As the stat of toughness have to redo, the stat of gears have to change too. All gears should be high damage but low toughness and vice versa.

Now, the whole forum is crying every class is OP because different kind of damages are too over. It can be solved by skill balance without end. Only introducing new toughness stat can solve the problem.

No…
You then have a game where everyone is basically a tank. If you have problems with conditions. bring removal…

0/10 Thread

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If Toughness reduced condition damage, Knight’s becomes the best gear set in the game for PvP. Decent damage, but the highest damage reduction.

Conditions right now are the counter to armor-stacking builds. Make Toughness effective against them and you literally would have one build to rule them all.

What he said, and I’m agreeing with him as someone who dislikes the current condi-meta.

What they need to do, is to make toughness scale better against DPS, especially at higher levels in PVE. Monsters in PVE do not respect the rules, and deal damage that almost negates the point of having toughness and armor to begin with. That is why so many don’t bother with toughness.

Another reason is that aggro design is messed up. Monsters specifically go after the player with the highest toughness, and not the player dealing the most damage. This directly negates the point of having high toughness to begin with. You bring toughness to reduce damage, not increase damage. The aggro system in GW2 makes no sense.

The problem is that right now Vitality and Healing Power are too weak. Making Toughness stronger is doing the opposite of helping them.

Make those two stronger, specifically versus conditions?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

What they need to do, is to make toughness scale better against DPS, especially at higher levels in PVE. Monsters in PVE do not respect the rules, and deal damage that almost negates the point of having toughness and armor to begin with. That is why so many don’t bother with toughness.

Another reason is that aggro design is messed up. Monsters specifically go after the player with the highest toughness, and not the player dealing the most damage. This directly negates the point of having high toughness to begin with. You bring toughness to reduce damage, not increase damage. The aggro system in GW2 makes no sense.

I’m agree with you to bring back toughness into pve environment, for diversity of trait, gears and tactics.

Guyver.1426:

As the stat of toughness have to redo, the stat of gears have to change too. All gears should be high damage but low toughness and vice versa.

Now, the whole forum is crying every class is OP because different kind of damages are too over. It can’t be solved by skill balance without end. Only introducing new toughness stat can solve the problem.

Your idea will cut 50% of the already limited build diversity out of the game instantly. No change, buff, nerf, or any adjustment of any kind will ever come close to even remotely swing down the QQ about builds, skills, or profession’s being OP. That is just a simple fact of every multiplayer game forums that will always exist. This is a very bad proposal, and I hope you come to understand why.

Toughness is fine as it is. Problem is the way people think stats do work. Going conditions allows you to be tanky and do lots of damage. And please, guys – its a matter of FACT they do too much damage in too short time for their tankyness. Keep equations out of the way, they simply dont reflect what happens in real environment. And thats what matters. There´s a reason why smallscale is dominated by conditions.

So Guyver is right in some part. Its not toughness which is in need of a change. Its condition damage. Reduce their damage, make them able to crit in order to force a conditioner to be squishy for the amount of damage he can dish out. Or introduce more frequently usable cleanses and update existing ones to account for the stupidly increased amount of conditions flying around including the new one.

Vitality itself ain´t a counter for conditions because vitality also has to cover direct damage. Also, if you stack vitality, you have to forgo damage output, which in turn means you won´t bring down any bunker or condition tank. The current system is flawed.

TheBandicoot.5294:

Toughness is fine as it is. Problem is the way people think stats do work. Going conditions allows you to be tanky and do lots of damage. And please, guys – its a matter of FACT they do too much damage in too short time for their tankyness. Keep equations out of the way, they simply dont reflect what happens in real environment. And thats what matters. There´s a reason why smallscale is dominated by conditions.

So Guyver is right in some part. Its not toughness which is in need of a change. Its condition damage. Reduce their damage, make them able to crit in order to force a conditioner to be squishy for the amount of damage he can dish out. Or introduce more frequently usable cleanses and update existing ones to account for the stupidly increased amount of conditions flying around including the new one.

Vitality itself ain´t a counter for conditions because vitality also has to cover direct damage. Also, if you stack vitality, you have to forgo damage output, which in turn means you won´t bring down any bunker or condition tank. The current system is flawed.

Just saying, but if the math doesn’t back you up, then it’s not a “matter of fact.” Math is literally as factual as you can possibly get.

What’s the goal of this? To nerf condition damage or to level the playing field for power and condition builds?

If the goal is to simply level the playing field, would removing ferocity do it? If every class did a base 50% crit damage like now and could increase it to 80% via traits with select few classes (like thief) being given another trait to increase it to an additional 20% this would make it so power had only 2 stats to draw from against a condi’s 1 (though arguably 2) stats.

If the solution is to simply nerf condition damage, wouldn’t it be easier to start smaller? Like just having protection and weakness reduce condition damage (they don’t currently, right?)? Or, using the same idea above by doing away with crit damage, you could reduce condition damage across the board by 30% and simply allow them to crit.

Would these scenarios work at all?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

TheBandicoot.5294:

Toughness is fine as it is. Problem is the way people think stats do work. Going conditions allows you to be tanky and do lots of damage. And please, guys – its a matter of FACT they do too much damage in too short time for their tankyness. Keep equations out of the way, they simply dont reflect what happens in real environment. And thats what matters. There´s a reason why smallscale is dominated by conditions.

So Guyver is right in some part. Its not toughness which is in need of a change. Its condition damage. Reduce their damage, make them able to crit in order to force a conditioner to be squishy for the amount of damage he can dish out. Or introduce more frequently usable cleanses and update existing ones to account for the stupidly increased amount of conditions flying around including the new one.

Vitality itself ain´t a counter for conditions because vitality also has to cover direct damage. Also, if you stack vitality, you have to forgo damage output, which in turn means you won´t bring down any bunker or condition tank. The current system is flawed.

Just saying, but if the math doesn’t back you up, then it’s not a “matter of fact.” Math is literally as factual as you can possibly get.

Exacly. If your going to make claims, and let’s not dance around it, a claim is all that it is, you owe it to yourself to support with favt. Otherwise you should have the awareness to know you will be written off imediately. Particularly when many many others have argued the opposite side of the argument and solidly proven you wrong as far as u am concerned.

This is a terrible terrible idea. We already have enough tankiness in PVP and PVE.

Currently you have Vit to rise your HP and Tou to rise your armor, you have invulnerability/block/dodge to counter direct damage, and cond cleanse for conditions.

If you changed Tou to not rise armor, how would you rise it? Heavy classes would have more advantage over the rest.

Belzebu.3912:

Currently you have Vit to rise your HP and Tou to rise your armor, you have invulnerability/block/dodge to counter direct all damage, and cond cleanse for conditions.

If you changed Tou to not rise armor, how would you rise it? Heavy classes would have more advantage over the rest.

Fixed that for you

Belzebu.3912:

Currently you have Vit to rise your HP and Tou to rise your armor, you have invulnerability/block/dodge to counter direct damage, and cond cleanse for conditions.

If you changed Tou to not rise armor, how would you rise it? Heavy classes would have more advantage over the rest.

Are you suggesting that no invulnerability to condition application exist, or that dodging and blocking attacks does not prevent them from being applied?

Actually I just missed that, dodge sure is a counter to everything, some invulnerability only prevent new conditions, but the ones on you will still be there causing damage, same with block.
But the idea is that there are passive and active defenses for both direct and condition damage, the suggested change would remove the passive direct damage defense (toughness) and nothing to replace it.

Wait what? What should i prove which is not already proven? look around! Why are so many people playing condition tanks when they´re so inferior according to your math? Its because the are not inferior. Its because they are effective vs bunkers and zerkers.

I dont need math to understand that. I invested about 3k hours into roaming and dueling. Math doesnt do kitten in such a volatile environment because its just theory, but the active combat throws way too many unknown variables into the mix. Just to be clear – i´d have to research it first. But after so long time playing i guess i can pretty much use my existing experience as an argument.

When you even see guardians (!) go condition damage, then you know somethign is seriously wrong in the balance of power vs conditions.

The system is flawed in its entirety. While Conditions are inferior to power in big group compositions and group PvE content, they get more and more effective the smaller the composition is. That needs to be changed. Smallscale conditions have to be nerfed while zerging conditioners need help. Making conditions rely on precision and critical damage won´t fix the latter. but it would balance them in 5v5 and below.

TheBandicoot.5294:

Wait what? What should i prove which is not already proven? look around! Why are so many people playing condition tanks when they´re so inferior according to your math? Its because the are not inferior. Its because they are effective vs bunkers and zerkers.

I dont need math to understand that. I invested about 3k hours into roaming and dueling. Math doesnt do kitten in such a volatile environment because its just theory, but the active combat throws way too many unknown variables into the mix. Just to be clear – i´d have to research it first. But after so long time playing i guess i can pretty much use my existing experience as an argument.

When you even see guardians (!) go condition damage, then you know somethign is seriously wrong in the balance of power vs conditions.

The system is flawed in its entirety. While Conditions are inferior to power in big group compositions and group PvE content, they get more and more effective the smaller the composition is. That needs to be changed. Smallscale conditions have to be nerfed while zerging conditioners need help. Making conditions rely on precision and critical damage won´t fix the latter. but it would balance them in 5v5 and below.

Are they? In the last 15 PvP matches I’ve played, there has been one, I repeat one condition build that I’ve run into out of all players on both teams. Out of 136 players, only one was running a condition build.

Roaming in WvW, I’ve run into maybe three condition builds out of 50+ roamers

They are very, very much in the minority. You do not have “condition tanks running everywhere.”

You see Guardians running conditions because they can, not because it’s good. People don’t know how to deal with a condition guardian because they never fight them. The success of that build relies on its opponents inexperience, not its own ability.

And it’s a computer program. Absolutely everything can be calculated (and is, that’s how the game works). What cannot happen is predictions.

I just want to point out that these are the same few guys on this forum to be against any measure on curbing condition builds. To say they are not biased, is a lie.

It is impossible to tell whether it is OPed if toughness affect conditions without knowing how much affect it is going to be.

With that said, conditional meta is not so much of an issue now, as Anet buffed some of power build to be even more OPed.

bigmonto.4215:

I just want to point out that these are the same few guys on this forum to be against any measure on curbing condition builds. To say they are not biased, is a lie.

It is impossible to tell whether it is OPed if toughness affect conditions without knowing how much affect it is going to be.

With that said, conditional meta is not so much of an issue now, as Anet buffed some of power build to be even more OPed.

We’re not against the curbing of condition builds; we just don’t believe there is a problem with them that requires curbing. Many players (including all of them that compete in tourneys) deal with condition builds just fine. I’ve never had issues dealing with condition builds, and I’ll readily admit to not being that great. The fact you bring up “the condition meta” means you are probably one of those players who hasn’t figured this out, because the condition meta never existed.

TheBandicoot.5294:

Wait what? What should i prove which is not already proven? look around! Why are so many people playing condition tanks when they´re so inferior according to your math? Its because the are not inferior. Its because they are effective vs bunkers and zerkers.

I dont need math to understand that. I invested about 3k hours into roaming and dueling. Math doesnt do kitten in such a volatile environment because its just theory, but the active combat throws way too many unknown variables into the mix. Just to be clear – i´d have to research it first. But after so long time playing i guess i can pretty much use my existing experience as an argument.

When you even see guardians (!) go condition damage, then you know somethign is seriously wrong in the balance of power vs conditions.

The system is flawed in its entirety. While Conditions are inferior to power in big group compositions and group PvE content, they get more and more effective the smaller the composition is. That needs to be changed. Smallscale conditions have to be nerfed while zerging conditioners need help. Making conditions rely on precision and critical damage won´t fix the latter. but it would balance them in 5v5 and below.

Similarly, generations of human s proclaimed the sun revolved around the earth based on their life times of experience. Math proved other wise.

No one is claiming conditions are not stronger in very small scale situations. We are simply suggesting they are not as strong as you claim. This is based on a combination of things. Our experiences. Reasonably presented math on the matter in the form of damage out put comparisons. As well as videos made to present how direct damage is superior when used correctly.

Your the one who came to the thread and started throwing the term “fact” around. In my opinion, the fact that you made an effort to avoid presenting any actual information to support your suggestion, is in itself, very strong evidence to counter your point. We have previously had this discussions. Please feel free to look up the previous discussion threads with break down of our opinions, the videos, and the math behind it. If you still disagree, then we simply have various opinions in this area. I simply feel myself and other present a better case then you do.

So you want me to back up something which cannot be backed up by math with math? Again. Math is a helping point, but nothing you can use to absolutely prove or bust when talking PvP.
There are enough threads going on on the matter, and its always, ALWAYS a select number of people who literally force all others to use some stupid theoretical calculation where calculations are utterly pointless. maybe the term " fact" wasn´t correct, but if you insist on math i guess you´re capable of understanding that math is nothing to base arguments on when talking small scale roaming or general PvP. So – i challenge you to bring me the math backing up YOUR point then. I may not be capable of it, but if you are, okay, go on, show me your numbers. And then i´ll tell you why numbers are bullkitten in this regard. it doesnt need a genius to understand that a soldier statted character would lose against a dire statted character when the soldier statted character even struggeles to barely stay alive using zerker stats. Against conditions toughness is of no use, and the vitality only keeps you a bit longer alive while you deal even less damage.

Also, have a look at some of the very same threads spread over various forum sections.

No. It has been very solidly proven that soldiers gear build are very capable of out damaging dire build. As well that when built properly with cleansing, they will often win 1v1 battles with skilled players. It is fairly common knowledge amount those who participated in the previous discussion. It is broken down there in video series and explained well and the math is laid out. All of which are more then you are presenting.

As was mentioned by a previous poster, your the one using the word “fact”, while avoiding presenting any. Some posters offered a good suggestion to look the info up. You admit to going off of your experience and feeling. Perhaps it would serve you well to be open minded and review the fact. If you chose to maintain your opinion, you are more then entitled to do so. It simply seems to me some folks are trying to educate you on another perspective and you are being abrasives in return.

But you do agree that toughness does not need a Chang right?

You want us to do calculations? Okay. What’s the target? Ranger or Engineer would be best, as they have mid-tier armor and health. I’ll do the comparisons against Zerker, Clerics, and Knight’s Exotic gear to show the variance.

Now, which profession should I use for the Dire and Soldier’s builds? Same profession both times. Gear tier will be identical.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

bigmonto.4215:

I just want to point out that these are the same few guys on this forum to be against any measure on curbing condition builds. To say they are not biased, is a lie.

It is impossible to tell whether it is OPed if toughness affect conditions without knowing how much affect it is going to be.

With that said, conditional meta is not so much of an issue now, as Anet buffed some of power build to be even more OPed.

We’re not against the curbing of condition builds; we just don’t believe there is a problem with them that requires curbing. Many players (including all of them that compete in tourneys) deal with condition builds just fine. I’ve never had issues dealing with condition builds, and I’ll readily admit to not being that great. The fact you bring up “the condition meta” means you are probably one of those players who hasn’t figured this out, because the condition meta never existed.

I don’t know what game you are playing. But condition bunker meta exists, and I use one myself. Yes it is not much of meta in PvE, tPvP, or Wvw zerg, but any type of pvp solo play or roaming, it does exist, and it is very unbalanced.

Now you can argue that the game isn’t balanced on these modes, but some people only enjoying playing these modes, and condition meta is very game breaking. But these days most of the fotm players move to Power Ranger, you have fewer conditional users around, and the condition meta is less of an issue after the patch.

bigmonto.4215:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

bigmonto.4215:

I just want to point out that these are the same few guys on this forum to be against any measure on curbing condition builds. To say they are not biased, is a lie.

It is impossible to tell whether it is OPed if toughness affect conditions without knowing how much affect it is going to be.

With that said, conditional meta is not so much of an issue now, as Anet buffed some of power build to be even more OPed.

We’re not against the curbing of condition builds; we just don’t believe there is a problem with them that requires curbing. Many players (including all of them that compete in tourneys) deal with condition builds just fine. I’ve never had issues dealing with condition builds, and I’ll readily admit to not being that great. The fact you bring up “the condition meta” means you are probably one of those players who hasn’t figured this out, because the condition meta never existed.

I don’t know what game you are playing. But condition bunker meta exists, and I use one myself. Yes it is not much of meta in PvE, tPvP, or Wvw zerg, but any type of pvp solo play or roaming, it does exist, and it is very unbalanced.

Now you can argue that the game isn’t balanced on these modes, but some people only enjoying playing these modes, and condition meta is very game breaking. But these days most of the fotm players move to Power Ranger, you have fewer conditional users around, and the condition meta is less of an issue after the patch.

I contend that it does not exist. A number of reasons why:

1. In all game modes, I have observed condition builds to be in the small minority. This is much more easily seen in TPvP where the top end results are well documented, but even in solo-que and hotjoin, condition builds are not even present in about half of the games I’ve played, let alone being everywhere. This has been consistent since launch, save for a one-month period (Dhuumfire patch).

2. In any game mode where your team is essentially random (solo-que and hotjoins), a meta cannot truly exist. There may be things more common than others, but no meta can form due to no composition planning being possible. Metagames are the results of deliberate thought, not random assignment. It’s like talking about the ARAM meta in League of Legends. You don’t really have anything to go off of.

3. Even during the short period where condition builds were on the majority of teams, condition builds still always made up less than half of the organized teams. Most teams ran just one Necro (because when Dhuumfire came out, everything else was outclassed for conditions) and everyone else was Power spec.

4. WvW roaming is dominated primarily by thieves, warriors, and rangers right now with a decent helping of mesmers and eles. P/D thieves are far less common than Dagger/X thieves, Warriors are a huge mixed bag, but most run Greatsword (mobility) or Longbow (because CI+ Combustive Shot is still dumb) or both (in which case, they’re not the most effective). Rangers are almost all Power due to Longbow, Greatsword, and Sword being their best roaming weapons right now. Eles don’t have great condition builds, so most run celestial Might stacking. Mesmers are the only common roamers that are usually using condition builds. Note that the two most notorious condition classes; engineers and necros, are both nearly absent from the roaming scene.

bigmonto.4215:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

bigmonto.4215:

I just want to point out that these are the same few guys on this forum to be against any measure on curbing condition builds. To say they are not biased, is a lie.

It is impossible to tell whether it is OPed if toughness affect conditions without knowing how much affect it is going to be.

With that said, conditional meta is not so much of an issue now, as Anet buffed some of power build to be even more OPed.

We’re not against the curbing of condition builds; we just don’t believe there is a problem with them that requires curbing. Many players (including all of them that compete in tourneys) deal with condition builds just fine. I’ve never had issues dealing with condition builds, and I’ll readily admit to not being that great. The fact you bring up “the condition meta” means you are probably one of those players who hasn’t figured this out, because the condition meta never existed.

I don’t know what game you are playing. But condition bunker meta exists, and I use one myself. Yes it is not much of meta in PvE, tPvP, or Wvw zerg, but any type of pvp solo play or roaming, it does exist, and it is very unbalanced.

Now you can argue that the game isn’t balanced on these modes, but some people only enjoying playing these modes, and condition meta is very game breaking. But these days most of the fotm players move to Power Ranger, you have fewer conditional users around, and the condition meta is less of an issue after the patch.

No one appears to be suggesting there is no mini condi bunker meta. I believe sone claimed it was a definitive “fact” that the do too much damage.

Yes, they should redo it. If you are a warrior with 3000 or more in toughness, your toon should let out a blood curdling scream and roll around on the ground when set on fire. It would be like a knockdown! :-)

Conditions are the counter to toughness. It is fine the way it is. Healing, vitality, and traits are the counter to conditions.

if it has been very solidly proven that Soldier´s outdmages Dire´s in their respective builds, where is that proof? Link please.

Dranor, you obviously are either very lucky or your matchups did not turn into condition wars yet. I play on Kodash, and when i roam, at least 50% of opposing players seem to run condition builds. Almost all Engineers, Mesmers and Necros run condition builds. Half the amount of Eles run celestial or pure condition builds. Half the amount of thieves i run into are P/D condition. Most rangers now switched to LB zerker now, but previously there were a lot of condi regen bunks running around. Warriors i see are increasingly often using x/shield LB celestial. Only guardians are the ones who almost completly forego the option of conditions. But there were some dueling in Obsidian Sanctum.

COnditions need a serious reword, and no, Archon, healing and vitality aren´t the counter for conditions because they have to cover direct damage as well. Conditions would be hard countered if vitality actually reduced condition damage just like toughness reduces direct damage. Would be a great idea indeed. Eitehr that, or we simply need more cleanses. There´s way too few. Toughness itself should be left as is, though.

TheBandicoot.5294:

COnditions need a serious reword, and no, Archon, healing and vitality aren´t the counter for conditions because they have to cover direct damage as well. Conditions would be hard countered if vitality actually reduced condition damage just like toughness reduces direct damage. Would be a great idea indeed. Eitehr that, or we simply need more cleanses. There´s way too few. Toughness itself should be left as is, though.

I can see why you feel that way, because an experienced condition dealer will eventually overpower opponents healing and drain their health pool. While a max toughness build can completely negate an opponents direct damage. Glass cannon and max toughness builds will usually get melted because of their unbalanced approach to combat. The hard counter to condition builds is actually running a balanced build with control skills.

Glass cannon builds have pathetic healing and vitality, so can be condition spiked faster than they can direct damage spike an opponent. Bunker builds invest too much in toughness which is completely wasted against a condition master. Max condition damage builds are risky, because they can be countered with control skills and usually have abysmal condition removal themselves.

Edit: Vitality and healing power are the direct counter to condition damage. The fact that they also take part in negating direct damage is irrelevant as to their effectiveness at negating condition damage.

Thebandicoot it sounds to me like you need to adjust your build to counter more conditions. The problem I often see, is that everyone often falls into the mentality that it is all about damage and do not invest wisely in defense in these areas. What builds are you using? What builds give you the most difficulty fighting against? With a little information we can offer you some guidance and help you solve your difficulty with winning fights.

The biggest problem you have, as I see it, is that you appear to want to push the discussion in the direction of 1v1 in WvW. That is the last place that any balance changes need to be focused on.

To be fair guys, conditions absolutely need a serious rework.

Why Anet would implement them in the way they did knowing they wouldn’t have the computing power to let more than one condition user deal damage on a boss target in PVE I have no idea.

Ehecatl.9172:

To be fair guys, conditions absolutely need a serious rework.

Why Anet would implement them in the way they did knowing they wouldn’t have the computing power to let more than one condition user deal damage on a boss target in PVE I have no idea.

For PvE purposes exclusively, I agree. But that has nothing to do with toughness. Your getting a bit off topic in that regard.

Of course, dancingmonkey, exactly that needs to be done. I have to adjust more for conditioners. But the problem is – i can´t. Even when combining:

Shadow´s Embrace (1 condition every 3 seconds of stealth)
Pain Reaction (cleanse Burn, Bleed, Poison below 75% @ 30 seconds CD)
Hide in Shadows (Heal skill @ 30 seconds CD, cleanses Burn, Bleed, Poison)
Runes of the Lyssa (transforms 5 conditions every 45 seconds using Basilisk Venom) Sigil of Purity (cleanses 1 condition on critical hit @ 10 seconds CD)
Sigil of Generosity (transfers 1 condition on critical hit @ 9 seconds CD)
Signet of Agility (cleanses 1 condition on 30 second CD, 24 when traited)
Shadow Step (cleanses 3 conditions on 50 second CD, 40 seconds when traited
Infiltrators Return (cleanses one condition for total cost of 5 initiative)

Problem is that this kind of build is not able to kill anything while being vulnerable to various auto-procs (looking at you, Incendiary Powder etc) because of only getting a few hits between stealth frames.
Of course i mean smallscale and 1on1s – thats what i wrote in my very first post. Even the usual 5v5 sPvP match has various 1on1s you simply cannot win when you face a equally skilled condition tank while playing a power build (thief here, obviously). And in this very metagame – smallscale, roaming, 1on1s up to 5on5s – conditions are too strong as long as they allow you to soak that much direct damage just because of stat independence (condi damage only really needs one single stat). Sure, conditions need more time to do their magic than direct damage does. But not that much. The underlying problem is that this kind of builds is way too forgiving thanks to the unavoidable nature of auto procs and the mass of conditions being able to be dropped on you while maintaining either insane presure or insane self sustain.

So to answer the question – any conditioner gives me a hard time (besides condi ranger – thanks to steal i have acces to sufficient condition removal and can win by outskilling them).

You keep using the term “you” can’t win, implying the rest of us have the same problem you do. You really do a disservice to the situation when you presume to speak for everyone. That is not the case. It seems more of us here are speaking from the perspective of players who have no issues handling the situation. Perhaps it is an adjustment in your play that you need to make?

If you’re running all of those things, it is definitely a playstyle adjustment you need. Using your cleansing more effectively is certainly possible and you can get away with less than half of what you claim you are using. On my condition necro, I’ve had significant difficulty against theives only running Shadow’s Embrace and Hide in Shadows because they knew exactly when to use them. Of course, a lot of other theives I just melted rapidly because they used them improperly.

The very biggest piece of advice I can give you actually applies to all condition builds: You do not have to be totally condition free to win! In fact, letting some conditions tick is a smart move. However, you need to figure out when that’s okay on your own, because it shifts dramatically with the fight. In general, though, it’s not worth blowing removal on 7 or fewer stacks of bleeds, as that amounts to auto-attack damage. They’ll come back.

I keep using the term " you" because i see it every other day inside Obsidian Sanctum or when roaming open world. Again, talking 1v1 here. And i dont mean just me. Our roaming and dueling community is just as upset with the meta as i am.

Thanks for the tips though, Drarnor. I´ll try to soak some advice of that, but the very first thing that comes to mind is the horrible lottery you play when using condition removes. It happens more often then not that my shadowstep removes cripple, weakness and poison when i have burning, confusion and bleeds on me as well. The same applies to the one-condition-removes.

Of course i have to make adjustments to my playstyle. Constantly. Read my signature, there its written :P
But i have come to a fullstop when facing condition builds. For 9 months now i have to run from equally skilled condition egnineers, mesmers and necros. And i tried various build / weapon compositions. I know i have to get better, but in the current meta it seems impossible for me. While my profession keeps getting nerf after nerf, lol.

TheBandicoot.5294:

I keep using the term " you" because i see it every other day inside Obsidian Sanctum or when roaming open world. Again, talking 1v1 here. And i dont mean just me. Our roaming and dueling community is just as upset with the meta as i am.

Thanks for the tips though, Drarnor. I´ll try to soak some advice of that, but the very first thing that comes to mind is the horrible lottery you play when using condition removes. It happens more often then not that my shadowstep removes cripple, weakness and poison when i have burning, confusion and bleeds on me as well. The same applies to the one-condition-removes.

Of course i have to make adjustments to my playstyle. Constantly. Read my signature, there its written :P
But i have come to a fullstop when facing condition builds. For 9 months now i have to run from equally skilled condition egnineers, mesmers and necros. And i tried various build / weapon compositions. I know i have to get better, but in the current meta it seems impossible for me. While my profession keeps getting nerf after nerf, lol.

Hey its this guy again

The guy who does not run points in shadow arts and wonders why he keeps getting melted by conditions

Things do not change much huh

I run 4 points in SA just because of condition spammers like you, Narkodx. It just doesnt help that much.

TheBandicoot.5294:

I run 4 points in SA just because of condition spammers like you, Narkodx. It just doesnt help that much.

You finally learned your lesson congrats! I also run D/P power thief since the beginning of time in WvW roaming – I still destroy everything including condi builds

Pro Tip – Try 6 points – shadows rejuv does wonders against DoTs

TheBandicoot.5294:

I keep using the term " you" because i see it every other day inside Obsidian Sanctum or when roaming open world. Again, talking 1v1 here. And i dont mean just me. Our roaming and dueling community is just as upset with the meta as i am.

Then let them speak for themselves if you don’t mind. I am sure they are capable human being, able to share their own opinions. I know I find it hard to take posters seriously when they presume they have the right to put word in other players mouths.

I agree with what my necro friend says. Although I have leveled all of the professions in predominantly WvW, and spent a solid amount of time to learn them, I main an engineer. The profession notorious for having the least access to condition clears, and stated by the devs to be designed to be weak to conditions. I play a power build as an engineer, and I tend to have no more difficulty dealing with condi builds then power builds, regardless of the situation. As it appears you main a thief, might I suggest creating a thread in the thief’s sub forum, and ask the community there for some thoughts on fighting condi builds.

You can also declare all out war on conditions with Melandru runes… They work better than they look because partial seconds of condition damage are completely negated.

conditions suck

Archon.6480:

You can also declare all out war on conditions with Melandru runes… They work better than they look because partial seconds of condition damage are completely negated.

Heck, I’d consider Melandru runes for the stun reduction. They’re a very, very solid rune set.

No to effecting condition damage, but I’d say let it have cc reduction in small amounts.

Posted this a long time ago actually, I think I suggested something like per 100 armor reduce cc duration by 1% so 2,000 armor had 20% reduction. Reason I say armor is heavy classes should feel more bulky but in the event you invest a lot into toughness you would get some help to stay on your toes. Reason being vitality works against conditions and power, toughness only works against power. I don’t want the same thing since conditions already have skills dedicated to removing them (some however severely lacking), but toughness needs a dual function to counter with.

In comparison, vitality is far stronger to take over toughness if you have the choice of 1 or the other but not both. I’d say toughness needs something to incentivize it’s position in builds but not in the form of condition reduction.