Guild Wars 2

Here’s the deal:

If you want power, you sacrifice survivability.
If you want condi or bunker, you can basically have both of them at the same time. This is not at all balanced.

What’s even more imbalanced is that they reduced the damage output of power builds across the board (by reducing crit damage), while condition skills are both extremely easy to stack and always have tankier builds available than power builds do.

What’s the worst thing, however, is that there are many professions that can make an unbeatable 1v1 bunker now. That means there is no counter to them and no amount of fair play will beat them. This is an imbalanced build in any profession. In PVP, even if the bunker can’t kill you, they still hold the point indefinitely. This is an unfair advantage for anyone using bunker builds.

This is why thief is lower and lower on the sPVP ladder: it can’t kill any bunker builds and it has no good bunker builds of its own.

Ele has received a new anti-power/crit (basically anti-thief) skill and it is loving it. Ele can now bunker as good as everyone else, never having to do anything meaningful to avoid damage and simply tanking 1v1 without ever dying.

Here’s another problem: Those bunkers outheal all 1v1 damage because heals are TOO STRONG for those bunkers. They should not be able to outheal all damage in a 1v1, even vs a high dps build/profession. This is a broken mechanic and needs to be fixed.

Most people who play pvp play bunkers/condi builds. Anet claims that their goal is to expand diversity, but every time power/dps gets nerfed and bunkers become easier and stronger, the meta becomes even MORE polarized…towards bunkers/condition builds. Any profession that doesn’t have any good ones (e.g. thief) is left out.

I spent a few hours learning engi and basically copied someone else’s build, and it just doesn’t ever DIE in 1v1. I’m not a good engi player, it’s just a broken build. So are other bunker condi builds for other professions. The new ele trait allowing no crits has similar potential, rangers have had and continue to have builds that are virtually unkillable in 1v1, warriors continue to outheal all 1v1 damage (partly because damage was decreased more than hs was nerfed), mesmers seemingly have access to more confusion than ever before (as well as easier access to a bigger variety of conditions thanks to the krait runes) and the whole result is that the game has NEVER been more unbalanced.

Condition damage, as one person said, scales far too strongly against any kind of lower HP profession or build, and now it’s easier than ever to stack a huge number of different conditions on an enemy. Why would anyone bother playing a power build anymore, unless they want to be at a huge disadvantage?

I do not understand why power/crit damage is the target of nerfing when conditions and their constant association with high vit/toughness builds (now easier and more available than in any previous patches) are already stronger. It’s like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Of course, thief gets the worst of it, and they got three nerfs this time besides a huge dps nerf. Not that any of them were deserved, but that has never mattered. What really matters is that people who complain about thief being OP (because they are bad players) get satisfaction.

It has been the case since Necro’s starting getting buffed. Theres no defense against Condi, literally speaking. In most MMO’s I’ve played, there’s been Physical Attack and Magical Attack, Physical Defense, and Magical Defense.

But in GW2, It’s Power and Condi / Toughness and Vitality. Which makes sense, this leaves classes with low HP high Toughness weaker to Condi and Lower Toughness and higher HP stronger to Condi. But this is not how it’s played out in GW2. What I find is condi clears are a must have, forcing people to choose or sacrifice. Some classes have condi clears in weapon skills, those are great and some classes do not, those are not great.

Moral of my post is there should be Condi defense, just like there is Physical defense, that way low HP high toughness classes can defend against condi while still being viable to solo the condi player.

Littlefeather.8623:

It has been the case since Necro’s starting getting buffed. Theres no defense against Condi, literally speaking. In most MMO’s I’ve played, there’s been Physical Attack and Magical Attack, Physical Defense, and Magical Defense.

But in GW2, It’s Power and Condi / Toughness and Vitality. Which makes sense, this leaves classes with low HP high Toughness weaker to Condi and Lower Toughness and higher HP stronger to Condi. But this is not how it’s played out in GW2. What I find is condi clears are a must have, forcing people to choose or sacrifice. Some classes have condi clears in weapon skills, those are great and some classes do not, those are not great.

Moral of my post is there should be Condi defense, just like there is Physical defense, that way low HP high toughness classes can defend against condi while still being viable to solo the condi player.

“It has been the case since Necro’s starting getting buffed.”

the only “buff” to necro’s was dumbfire, which lead to several necro skills being nerfed and ultimately dumbfire was also nerfed.

so please tell me about those buffs.

Brando.1374:

Littlefeather.8623:

It has been the case since Necro’s starting getting buffed. Theres no defense against Condi, literally speaking. In most MMO’s I’ve played, there’s been Physical Attack and Magical Attack, Physical Defense, and Magical Defense.

But in GW2, It’s Power and Condi / Toughness and Vitality. Which makes sense, this leaves classes with low HP high Toughness weaker to Condi and Lower Toughness and higher HP stronger to Condi. But this is not how it’s played out in GW2. What I find is condi clears are a must have, forcing people to choose or sacrifice. Some classes have condi clears in weapon skills, those are great and some classes do not, those are not great.

Moral of my post is there should be Condi defense, just like there is Physical defense, that way low HP high toughness classes can defend against condi while still being viable to solo the condi player.

“It has been the case since Necro’s starting getting buffed.”

the only “buff” to necro’s was dumbfire, which lead to several necro skills being nerfed and ultimately dumbfire was also nerfed.

so please tell me about those buffs.

I apologize if it seemed I made an attack about Necros, that was not my point though. This game has lacked a real defense against Condis though, it did not start creeping its head until Necro / Condi Meta starting taking over.

My point is though that there is a defense against Physical damage, but why not Condi damage? Some classes honestly do not offer enough condi clears. And then there is the argument about foods/sigils/runes. Thats great, but why should a physical attack player be pigeoned into using those when the Condi players do not have to due to their high Vit/Toughness/weapon/skill condi clears?

Thats a question I have always had…

condi clear and hp counter condi dmg what r u talking about no counters

Keira Ferland.5619:

condi clear and hp counter condi dmg what r u talking about no counters

Condi clears are not even across the board my friend, some classes have more than others, and HP is not even across the board either. That is what I am talking about.

Littlefeather.8623:

Keira Ferland.5619:

condi clear and hp counter condi dmg what r u talking about no counters

Condi clears are not even across the board my friend, some classes have more than others, and HP is not even across the board either. That is what I am talking about.

those who cant handle conditions well have the option to stealth/blink/teleport/rush away and reset/find someone their build can beat.

A guardian does not have the option to do any one of those in PvP friend, except rush away, but a crippled/chilled guardian with a few K HP trying to run away from a Necro is not going to happen. This is just one situation, but I hope you get the idea.

I understand that most people would be appalled if there was actual Condition defense, I have brought this up before a very long time ago and got blasted, the same way I get blasted with Condi’s while I try to solo roam or PvP 1v1. Just my two cents that GW2 should introduce Condition defense.

Littlefeather.8623:

A guardian does not have the option to do any one of those in PvP friend, except rush away, but a crippled/chilled guardian with a few K HP trying to run away from a Necro is not going to happen. This is just one situation, but I hope you get the idea.

a bunker guard should be able to stalemate a condi class. Not necessarily win but he wont die.

Brando.1374:

Littlefeather.8623:

A guardian does not have the option to do any one of those in PvP friend, except rush away, but a crippled/chilled guardian with a few K HP trying to run away from a Necro is not going to happen. This is just one situation, but I hope you get the idea.

a bunker guard should be able to stalemate a condi class. Not necessarily win but he wont die.

Not every guardian is a Bunker, and not every guardian wants to be support. I guess if Im a guardian I either choose bunker or support…seems legit

Littlefeather.8623:

Brando.1374:

Littlefeather.8623:

A guardian does not have the option to do any one of those in PvP friend, except rush away, but a crippled/chilled guardian with a few K HP trying to run away from a Necro is not going to happen. This is just one situation, but I hope you get the idea.

a bunker guard should be able to stalemate a condi class. Not necessarily win but he wont die.

Not every guardian is a Bunker, and not every guardian wants to be support. I guess if Im a guardian I either choose bunker or support…seems legit

it actually is legit. you need to choose your build and know your weakness. a condi necro has limited access to stab and only a few stun breaks on 50+s cd. we are very easy to stun lock and shut down.

so it all about what you choose to do with your class.

Brando.1374:

Littlefeather.8623:

Brando.1374:

Littlefeather.8623:

A guardian does not have the option to do any one of those in PvP friend, except rush away, but a crippled/chilled guardian with a few K HP trying to run away from a Necro is not going to happen. This is just one situation, but I hope you get the idea.

a bunker guard should be able to stalemate a condi class. Not necessarily win but he wont die.

Not every guardian is a Bunker, and not every guardian wants to be support. I guess if Im a guardian I either choose bunker or support…seems legit

it actually is legit. you need to choose your build and know your weakness. a condi necro has limited access to stab and only a few stun breaks on 50+s cd. we are very easy to stun lock and shut down.

so it all about what you choose to do with your class.

I should not have brought Necro into this thread. My only point is there is not a lot of incentive to have high toughness in the world of Condi damage. There is an incentive to have high HP though. Unfortunately some classes do not have high HP.

Littlefeather.8623:

Brando.1374:

Littlefeather.8623:

Brando.1374:

Littlefeather.8623:

A guardian does not have the option to do any one of those in PvP friend, except rush away, but a crippled/chilled guardian with a few K HP trying to run away from a Necro is not going to happen. This is just one situation, but I hope you get the idea.

a bunker guard should be able to stalemate a condi class. Not necessarily win but he wont die.

Not every guardian is a Bunker, and not every guardian wants to be support. I guess if Im a guardian I either choose bunker or support…seems legit

it actually is legit. you need to choose your build and know your weakness. a condi necro has limited access to stab and only a few stun breaks on 50+s cd. we are very easy to stun lock and shut down.

so it all about what you choose to do with your class.

I should not have brought Necro into this thread. My only point is there is not a lot of incentive to have high toughness in the world of Condi damage. There is an incentive to have high HP though. Unfortunately some classes do not have high HP.

but those who dont have high hp have skills that help keep their low hp up. ele and guard come to mind.

If you want power, you sacrifice survivability.
If you want condi or bunker, you can basically have both of them at the same time. This is not at all balanced.

you can’t make a direct contrast in your first point and then add some word like ‘virtually’ or ‘basically’ to the second. condi players by default use rabid or dire and those that use dire at tanky in general but not necessarily bunker. you can’t be bunker by being tanky alone, you need heals/regen/etc – something more than just toughness and vitality.

that aside, you make points, but you are talking to a brick wall. i believe these changes are set in stone and will eventually be the downfall of this game.

Actually on topic:

Condition clears are a placebo that do not actually do anything but prolong the inevitable. As long as conditions can be applied via AA (necro scepter) they will always be spammable and condi will always be king. I would be fine with increasing the physical damage of condition applying skills while reducing condition damage across the board. That way, if ur using dire you’re kitten compared to a condi build using full carrion or something that actually has power. Either way, if they nerf one thing something else will become the new meta and ppl will cry about that and the cycle continues. This game is, by design, made to be min/maxed and have nothing but cheese builds running around, and nothing will change that.

Conditions should not even exist as a viable build. They should be few and far between. They should be supplemental to physical damage and not viable on their own. i.e. a power-based warrior using impale should (and it does) add some DoT damage to their target in addition to physical damage.. but it shouldn’t be possible to have a build that is solely dedicated to using these DoT skills.

So what I am reading here is
“I don’t want to build to counter conditions, so they need to be nerfed. I know they can be countered, but nerf them so I do not need to counter them.”

This way I can make a new thread and complain about a lack of build diversity, after they remove an entire 1/2 of the damage types at my dmeand. To suit little old me. The rest of the players be danged.

dancingmonkey.4902:

So what I am reading here is
“I don’t want to build to counter conditions, so they need to be nerfed. I know they can be countered, but nerf them so I do not need to counter them.”

This way I can make a new thread and complain about a lack of build diversity, after they remove an entire 1/2 of the damage types at my dmeand. To suit little old me. The rest of the players be danged.

its more like “I have a build that can counter physical damage but I get wrecked by conditions!! Nerf conditions so I dont have to worry about dying or change my build to accommodate both play styles!”

Some professions have NO effective counter for condition spam, including thief and, to some degree, Mesmer. They have limited useful condition removal and just can’t clear conditions nearly as fast as they get them. Thief is worst off because of a tiny health pool.

What I see in MOST cases in pvp now are bunkers, condi spammers, and some combination of those two things. A power/crit player is rare (besides thieves), and they are ALWAYS the easiest to kill. Always. They can’t clear condis fast enough and melt if I use an engi, and they can’t take the damage if I use thief. That’s why hardly anyone plays them.

This is not build diversity. Conditions ARE the meta, with bunkers/tanks being the main presentation of this since some kind of increased durability inevitably comes with condition damage stats.

Form.8741:

Some professions have NO effective counter for condition spam, including thief and, to some degree, Mesmer. They have limited useful condition removal and just can’t clear conditions nearly as fast as they get them. Thief is worst off because of a tiny health pool.
.

Oh no sir..

A thief can stealth and remove conditions, heal and remove conditions AND get into stealth, use sigil’s to transfer a condition, or shadow step away and remove conditions

Hell if a thief want’s to, they can jump in and out of stealth and not worry about conditions.

A mesmer is also the same just with clones
I fought a necro in Spvp who signet of spited me, I stealthed with torch and removed a condition, blinked away and cleared the rest.

Guess who got the rest of the necro marks?
The clones….

Oh and did I mention the awesome regen/aegis/prot I get oh so easily?

That isn’t even my final form..
A mesmer can trait to have great condition removal and high stealth/phantasm uptime.
But you lose out on PU
That sacrifice must be made though if you want to deal with the condition meta

There are not but’s to this..
If conditions give you trouble, build to counter them
I did and I am a MESMER!

Pretty much, every profession has a choice:

1. Strong condition defense
2. Strong direct damage defense
3. strong offense

Pick 2.

However, this is extremely simplified. Other than stacking toughness and spamming Protection, everything that limits direct damage is equally as effective against conditions. In addition, it is possible to have offense, and both kinds of defense, but not being as effective at any of them as one who actually made a choice.

So, if you can manage “strong offense” and “strong active defense”, you manage a build where you handle just about everything well.

Thieves are pretty much free kills to my engineer with its insane condi dmg, but as soon as I go up against a hambow warrior I feel my dmg sucks.

Maybe if they took necros and warriors out of the clouds with their high healthbars and slightly increased the hp of thieves, guardians and elementalists they could make conditions far more balanced.

Necros would need a complete overhaul if their base health got lowered. Health is their only actual defense, since they lack dodges, invulnerabilities, blocks, evades, and immunities entirely.

I main Engineer, I have some of the crappiest condition removal in the game. When I build completely for damage, even in a condition build, I know I am going to have trouble against conditions due to it being my weakness. But instead of complaining, I made a bunker build, and now I fear nothing.

@OP, I can’t believe someone is really complaining about bunkers now. Not even condition bunkers, but straight out can’t kill anything at all bunkers. Maybe some people got tired of being destroyed by all the constant 7k-14k crits out there, or being pummeled by a barrage of conditions. Bunker builds do just what they are intended to do, they survive, that’s it. If a bunker can’t even survive a 1v1, then what is the point of even making a bunker build.

Problem with everyone is they want the one build that dominates everything and loses to nothing and they come to the forums to throw a fit every time someone kills them. And please, consolidate all of your complaints into one thread at least instead of making a new thread on an old topic over and over and over again.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Necros would need a complete overhaul if their base health got lowered. Health is their only actual defense, since they lack dodges, invulnerabilities, blocks, evades, and immunities entirely.

Adjusting health of classes is a big change, I would see no problem with necros receiving other mitigation methods. I’m mostly fine with things as they are currently though, but it does make it impossible to scale dmg in a healthy way when the base hp difference between low and high hp is 8k

For the sake of boredom I stacked some vit in pvp on my necro.

Ghostwolf.9863:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Necros would need a complete overhaul if their base health got lowered. Health is their only actual defense, since they lack dodges, invulnerabilities, blocks, evades, and immunities entirely.

Adjusting health of classes is a big change, I would see no problem with necros receiving other mitigation methods. I’m mostly fine with things as they are currently though, but it does make it impossible to scale dmg in a healthy way when the base hp difference between low and high hp is 8k

For the sake of boredom I stacked some vit in pvp on my necro.

Hit Plague and take a screenshot of that number. It get’s funnier.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ghostwolf.9863:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Necros would need a complete overhaul if their base health got lowered. Health is their only actual defense, since they lack dodges, invulnerabilities, blocks, evades, and immunities entirely.

Adjusting health of classes is a big change, I would see no problem with necros receiving other mitigation methods. I’m mostly fine with things as they are currently though, but it does make it impossible to scale dmg in a healthy way when the base hp difference between low and high hp is 8k

For the sake of boredom I stacked some vit in pvp on my necro.

Hit Plague and take a screenshot of that number. It get’s funnier.

And then you remember that there’s no way a Necro can refill that huge healthpool outside of leaving combat and it gets sad again

Seriously though, Necro’s biggest weaknesses are control abilities, lack of mobility and lack of scaling damage mitigation. We have the HP but we have no sustain or disengage, Necros in a fight are always running out of time, kind of funny for what should be the attrition class.

Those are some pretty big weaknesses, the trade-off comes in the form of high CC and damage condition application, independent of spec.

Spicyhash.7605:

Condition clears are a placebo that do not actually do anything but prolong the inevitable. As long as conditions can be applied via AA (necro scepter) they will always be spammable and condi will always be king. I would be fine with increasing the physical damage of condition applying skills while reducing condition damage across the board. That way, if ur using dire you’re kitten compared to a condi build using full carrion or something that actually has power. Either way, if they nerf one thing something else will become the new meta and ppl will cry about that and the cycle continues. This game is, by design, made to be min/maxed and have nothing but cheese builds running around, and nothing will change that.

Conditions should not even exist as a viable build. They should be few and far between. They should be supplemental to physical damage and not viable on their own. i.e. a power-based warrior using impale should (and it does) add some DoT damage to their target in addition to physical damage.. but it shouldn’t be possible to have a build that is solely dedicated to using these DoT skills.

Without Condis, toughness/prot stacking becomes even more ridiculous.

If anything, Dire gear should be Vit/Tough primary and Condi secondary, if you want to try neutering it. Make them primarily tanky with supplementary condition damage, not all of the possible condition damage with supplementary tanky.

But that aside, saying condition clears do nothing but extend the inevitable is like saying dodges do nothing but extend the inevitable. A well-timed clear can win you the fight. A wrongly timed clear can lose you the fight. Sound kind of like dodge? Because it kind of is. Only you can also dodge condi application.

The scepter auto damage is OK for an auto attack, but it’s only spectacular if it gets other rune/sigil procs with it. It’s unmitigated pressure, sure, but it doesn’t ball nearly as hard as people think. They’re just used to it proccing Dhuumfire, which WAS too much damage for an auto.

Anyway, if they truly wanted Vitality to be a counter to condis, then base healing should scale with Vitality, such that health regen/heals do a % of your total health. Your heal already scales with your Toughness considering each hit point is worth more, but Vitality gets none of that, and the rate of incoming damage vs. the rate of heals means you only really survive longer by the amount of extra health you get from Vitality in many cases (except Necro, who get more LF based on Vit, so it’s actually a stat worth considering more defensively). It always felt lackluster to me.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ghostwolf.9863:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Necros would need a complete overhaul if their base health got lowered. Health is their only actual defense, since they lack dodges, invulnerabilities, blocks, evades, and immunities entirely.

Adjusting health of classes is a big change, I would see no problem with necros receiving other mitigation methods. I’m mostly fine with things as they are currently though, but it does make it impossible to scale dmg in a healthy way when the base hp difference between low and high hp is 8k

For the sake of boredom I stacked some vit in pvp on my necro.

Hit Plague and take a screenshot of that number. It get’s funnier.

And then you remember that there’s no way a Necro can refill that huge healthpool outside of leaving combat and it gets sad again

Seriously though, Necro’s biggest weaknesses are control abilities, lack of mobility and lack of scaling damage mitigation. We have the HP but we have no sustain or disengage, Necros in a fight are always running out of time, kind of funny for what should be the attrition class.

Those are some pretty big weaknesses, the trade-off comes in the form of high CC and damage condition application, independent of spec.

With Parasitic Contagion or Unholy Sanctuary, you can now.

You do realize Unholy Sanctuary is only equivalent to the Regeneration boon, right? A Clerics build may get back 1k hp with an entire bar of death shroud in an actual fight.

I run a support guardian with a build designed ENTIRELY to cleanse conditions.

Ironically I can face multiple berserkers at the time but a single proper terrormancer will make me kitten bricks.

Pleurodesed.7625:

I run a support guardian with a build designed ENTIRELY to cleanse conditions.

Ironically I can face multiple berserkers at the time but a single proper terrormancer will make me kitten bricks.

Thats the way it should be ideally.

Berserker should counter condi
Condi counter bunker
Bunker counter zerker

roamzero.9486:

Pleurodesed.7625:

I run a support guardian with a build designed ENTIRELY to cleanse conditions.

Ironically I can face multiple berserkers at the time but a single proper terrormancer will make me kitten bricks.

Thats the way it should be ideally.

Berserker should counter condi
Condi counter bunker
Bunker counter zerker

Yeah but right now berzerkers get the shaft from both bunkers and condi

No, they didn’t get the shaft. It is just completely irrational in my opinion, to conclude that a zerker build should trump a condition build by default alone.

Why would you expect a build focused on damage, meaning with traits/skills built for DPS and not cleansing, while sacrificing all the health pool for DPS…….It is extremely simple minded in my opinion to assume that the three main meta builds are the only ways to go. Actually, I think building to the meta is sure indicator of a lack if skill and originality in a player. Heck, half the time if you use unique builds or builds outside of the meta, all of the meta band wagoners do not have the slightest clue how to react when they encounter you. Thus making their death relatively uncomplicated to bring to passing for them.

The problem isn’t zerkers, bunker, or condition builds, the problem is that there are enough players in the community that are stupid enough to think those are the only three build styles, or that following the meta means something. Got to love folks who actually think jumping off a bridge is the right thing to do, simply because every other clown is doing it.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Anyway, if they truly wanted Vitality to be a counter to condis, then base healing should scale with Vitality, such that health regen/heals do a % of your total health. Your heal already scales with your Toughness considering each hit point is worth more, but Vitality gets none of that, and the rate of incoming damage vs. the rate of heals means you only really survive longer by the amount of extra health you get from Vitality in many cases (except Necro, who get more LF based on Vit, so it’s actually a stat worth considering more defensively). It always felt lackluster to me.

that suggestion would ruin toughness as a stat. Toughness would be worth nothing since the only advanatge it had was that against power builds their healing scales. Vitality on the other hand had the andvantages that:
-it increases hit points* armor the most on any class (except necro where they are an almost equal). So without healing vitality defends you more against power damage.
-it works against both power and conditions

So removing the only adavantage of toughness is not a good idea.

dancingmonkey.4902:

No, they didn’t get the shaft. It is just completely irrational in my opinion, to conclude that a zerker build should trump a condition build.

Why would you expect a build focused on damage, meaning with traits/skills built for DPS and not cleansing, while sacrificing all the health pool for DPS…….It is extremely simple minded in my opinion to assume that the three main meta builds are the only ways to go. Actually, I think building to the meta is sure indicator of a lack if skill and originality in a player. Heck, half the time if you use unique builds or builds outside of the meta, all of the meta band wagoners do not have the slightest clue how to react when they encounter you. Thus making their death relatively uncomplicated to bring to passing for them.

The problem isn’t zerkers, bunker, or condition builds, the problem is that there are enough players in the community that are stupid enough to think those are the only three build styles, or that following the meta means something. Got to love folks who actually think jumping off a bridge is the right thing to do, simply because every other clown is doing it.

Gee there sure are lot’s of game modes for all that diversity, the games aren’t totally based around keeping bunkers on points and having an OP solo class with bunker capabilities (coff engi) to get the far node, people go for most effective builds for the job not “it’s not that bad , it works sometimes”…

Im a wvw player. I see things a little diferent. I prefer large scale fights. Condi bunkers there are jokes. In 1v1 they eat me. If the enemy have 5-10 roamers whos always hunt solo players that hurts a lot but this is a IRL ractic. Guerilla fights are the part of the war since people kill people

I don’t have any issues with condition classes in WvW … on any of my classes really…

People get so angry when they die to conditions…. probably the same feeling i get with stealth spam thieves or warriors with unmatchable mobility running away from every fight.

Before the Dhummfire patch there were no issues with conditions….?

I can’t help but see these threads and think, ‘Sigh, another DPS meta player who’s turned towards bashing conditions now that ferocity has been introduced’.

There was never any discussion about condition damage being “OP” up until there was a “threat” to DPS builds. (In the OP’s case, he’s clearly a thief who’s had his jimmies rustled now that they’re no longer top dog in pvp).

The simple fact of the matter is this:

When DPS is the meta, people cry “OP!”

When condition-based builds suddenly become meta, even after being balanced since the start of the game, people cry “OP!”

It’s truly pathetic. There is one type of player who wants their cake and eat it, and that’s those who are currently QQing about conditions. What you’re basically telling everyone is “I don’t like it that my build is no longer da bestest evar so YOU SHOULD BE NERFED TOO!!”.

While you have valid points, I would love to know what this new ele bunker build using Stone Heart actually is…

According to condi > bunker > zerker > condi…

Then what the hell defeats condibunkers?
What’s the proper way to defeat one of those engineers with apothecary gear which unload 2398479832 condis on you and then just explode their healing turrets a thousand times in water fields?

Pleurodesed.7625:

According to condi > bunker > zerker > condi…

Then what the hell defeats condibunkers?
What’s the proper way to defeat one of those engineers with apothecary gear which unload 2398479832 condis on you and then just explode their healing turrets a thousand times in water fields?

Use electricity, they receive more damage after they used water fields from lightning and stuff, cuz they are wet^^

no seriously, I don’t see the issue:

In WvW: kill them from a distance. It can be done.

In PvP: Push/pull/knockback/fear them from the point and cap it. It can be done. Their condi pressure is also very weak.

My success rate doing so is about 50/50 (didn’t measure exactly but I think that’s about right), so it seems to me at least fairly balanced.

It is too often the case that we find OP what we do not have as a class strength.
I play both an thief and an engineer. Both are effective against each other.
Frankly, as a thief, I worry far more about the condi engineer than a bunker.

Several things hurt the bunker engineer.
1) His heals have a pretty long setup save bombs and regeneration which your burst can easily get thru. So you simply want to keep him from being able to fire off much. Basilisk poison is wonderful for the role as is CND and just backstab, stealth, reset.
Wear him out.

2) The bunker engineer can be thrown all over the place having almost no stability. When pushed all over the place I lose precious time I need to get those big heals off and eventually that is what will kill me.

3) Attack the turrets, not me first. A bunker engineer (most builds not all) tend to rely on turret healing. The second you see it go down, kill it. That will even up the fight if you can before the engineer overcharges and picks it up.

4) The engineer can handle A burst plus lots of sustain condition, but it struggles with multiple bursts given how its real benefit is multiple small heals (backpack, mists, e-gun, etc) Hit me from stealth to make me blow a lot of heals then burst me again from stealth before the reset timers. If you have the block from tool kit you may need a 3rd reset but realize the engineer should still have a lot of cooldownss to deal with.

5) Condition load the engineer. Sure as a thief that is hard, but it doesn’t make the engie hard to 1v1. Just harder for your class.

Far more devastating is not the bunker engineer but the decap engineer who will throw you around like a ping pong ball.

Melandru runes and food can effectively totally defeat condition damage in wvw. Pvp needs a better way to reduce duration tho.

One thing I’m going to say here is that if it’s one condition class it’s manageable when you build for decent condition cleanse, if it’s more then one then you’re screwed no matter what unless they’re really bad. Vitality is not a true counter/mitigation to conditions as many people suggest, and if you compare it to toughness here’s the thing it only effects direct damage, and vitality also effects direct damage too, ssince you have to hit them more to take off however many more hit pointss they have. Another thing with toughnesss too is if you stack it with protection, or applying weakness you severely reduce the damage, and you have things like block and dodge that affects direct damage a lot more then condition damage which sticks when you apply it..

I’ve realized it when i was roaming around in WvW, even with 22k HP, passive active condition removal(Purity sigil), smite condition, and full cleanse (CoP) I got burned down so quickly even with with help from guards in a camp. When you have a ranger who can effectively stack bleeds easily and fast with shortbow and sharpening stone, and a engineer who can practically overload you with every condition in the book aside from torment(in wvw). It doesn’t matter how much Vitality you have you’re going to die. I know for sure i could live longer against two zerker warriors or Zerker guardians and even phantasm mesmers (Because I know i could dodge the key damaging attacks) Though against conditons there’s no way to skillfully combat it, condition removals only go so far, and when you’ve expended them all(timing when to remove a large stack of bleeds or burning) you’re out of options to mitigate condition damage. As for Spvp, It’s easy and just as fast to apply bars full of conditions then it is to remove them.

Condition damage now, it might be a bit meh in zergs but in small skirmishes and such, it dominates. Condition damage ignores armor, and the only means to really soften it comes from Runes, or traits, or just straight up removing them. – Condition Duration is scarce unless you specifically run Melandru runes but even then it’s really the only -condition duration that helps soften the total damage received. Unless you wvw then you you have Lemongrasss which is countered by Koi Cakes/Rare Veggie pizza. With the sigil change, durations got buffed significantly, as well as application(sigil change makes it easier to have more damaging conditions), so this further buffs the strength of these types of builds.

I think condition damage might be more bearable if there was a stat like toughness for it that you had to put stat points in. However many points of the stat you have in it works likes toughness and gives you a percentage of -condition duration. A stat combo that might use this can be a 4 stat combo with the stat for -condition duration. . It would be whatever primary stat, the minor stats having less then the usual amount than a 3 stat combo. I don’t want to say a three stat because if you look at Giver’s armor yeah….but it’s stll up there for thought.

If this were to happen I would think some fixes to traits that give -condition duration like Leg Mods, Dogged March, etc would need to be brought down slightly (33%->25%) so you aren’t practically immune to large amounts of soft CC 100% of the time.

Another Idea I think would be good is if there were runes that gave a significantly stronger -condition duration that effects only 1 or 2 specific conditions(Look at how the runes for offensive conditions are). This would help balance things out for power players and hybrid specs so condition isn’t completely dominant.

Littlefeather.8623:

I understand that most people would be appalled if there was actual Condition defense, I have brought this up before a very long time ago and got blasted, the same way I get blasted with Condi’s while I try to solo roam or PvP 1v1. Just my two cents that GW2 should introduce Condition defense.

Well I use -40% condition duration food + -20% condition duration from Runes. Conditions are a joke for me.

So what your saying Lucentfir, is that it is no different then if multiple opponents attack you with control based builds, and your stun breakers cannot keep up with stun tactics from multiple attackers and are defeated.

You know what should happen? Reduce the necessity to take 5 Condi clears for a shot at beating a condition build. Essentially, increase the amount of conditions removed on Condi clears across the board, or cause specific weapon skills to remove certain conditions (aside from the standard immob/chill/cripple removals – ones that clear damaging conditions).

They should be reducing access to conditions some of these classes have. Warrior, Engineer, Necromancer, Mesmer all have just a bit too much when it comes to conditions.

Necromancer – Remove Burning
Engineer – Remove Confusion
Mesmer – Remove Burning
Warrior – Remove Torment

They shouldn’t have SO many conditions that are not only easily to apply but on low cool downs making condition removals rather useless most of the time.

Viking Jorun.5413:

You know what should happen? Reduce the necessity to take 5 Condi clears for a shot at beating a condition build. Essentially, increase the amount of conditions removed on Condi clears across the board, or cause specific weapon skills to remove certain conditions (aside from the standard immob/chill/cripple removals – ones that clear damaging conditions).

This right here is the best thing I have read in this entire thread. Couldn’t agree more, when with new gearing options classes can apply/stack 3 different conditions on autoattack (not that every/any class would go that route), and most condition application is effortless, spammable, and on a very low cooldown.

As an anecdote, I think a good baseline for condi clearing is the engineers turret heal. Being able to remove 2 conditions every 15 seconds seems like a very fair baseline. Condition builds can still load up the condis while the heal/cleanse is on cooldown and deal decent damage, while the engi isn’t totally screwed by all of the different condition sources a single class can bring.

Ultimately it should be balanced around that baseline, with certain classes thematically getting different options revolving around that baseline (multiple smaller cleanses on lower cooldowns, or multiple big cleanses on large cooldowns).

Rangers also now have the perfect amount of condition removal and removal options, as another anecdote, although it may not be spread on the traitlines that compliment certain peoples ideal builds.

So +1

I still think this is a PvP problem, not a game-wide problem. Conquest as a game mode promotes and enhances bunker / AoE builds just by the way you are forced to fight in a tiny little circle, making the whole idea of this game being about position and movement useless. Defensive mechanics like stealth, teleports and mobility in general are weak in such a setup making other defences like armour and straight up bunking appear better than they are. And then with the AoE nature of lots of condi builds (necros, engis, hambow, etc) the problems of fighting on a circle again enhance those attacks artificially.

In WvW roaming (the other game mode were 1v1s are common) you dont see the bunker / condi spam you do in PvP. Necros are much rarer, hambows warriors are extremely rare, condi mesmers are seen but not as often as phantasm mesmers. Sure, there are plenty of condition roaming builds, but they dont dominate, and full on bunkering is really not that commonluy seen.