Guild Wars 2

Sebrent.3625:

Heck, I’m surprised Mesmer’s Mirror of Anguish hasn’t been included in here yet … you CC me and I get to automatically CC you too … I did nothing :-p

I was wondering when someone would point this out. And you are correct, the Mesmer does nothing and you are CC’d. However, currently, this is how Mirror of Anguish works. When you CC the Mesmer, BOTH the Mesmer AND the caster are CC’d. There is no “upper hand” and this is why you never see this trait in PvP. Yeah, its in that “grey area”, though.

If it actually did “reflect” the CC back to the caster, leaving the Mesmer untouched, then I would total agree that it too should not exist in PvP.

As far as your other points, with those I, as a player do not lose control of my character because of it. Yes they are passive and the wearer doesn’t have to do anything to gain a benefit from it. But my point with Nightmare runes is the “LOSING CONTROL when the enemy did nothing” aspect.

Sigil of generosity. I’m rooted … now you are instead … or some other condition.

There is an upper hand with Mirror of Anguish. You would have had a chance to gain the upperhand by CCing the Mesmer. However, instead, they have nullified it. It’s the same as if your CC hit someone with Nightmare runes and they were CC’d while you were feared.

I honestly don’t care what happens with Nightmare runes. Keep’em or get rid of them.

I just think that you’re massively overblowing their power.

On the bright side … I learned something cheesy I could play with on my Ranger time to pull out my pig for some more fun times :-p

SlimChance.6593:

As far as your other points, with those I, as a player do not lose control of my character because of it.

And if you die because of them? Then you “lost control”. Plus if you don’t die from the 2s fear on the runes, it hardly matters now, does it?

Sigil of Generosity.. I attack you, crit and transfer a condition to you. (Just like any other attack that applies a condition. I’m attacking you and apply a condition to you in my attack.) You can dodge, LOS, block do whatever to prevent the attack.

NightMare Runes.. I attack you and I’M feared. (see the difference)

Mirror of Anguish does not nullify the cc, the Mesmer is still cc’d. True, you’ve lost a cooldown, but the Mesmer did not have an advantage during the cc? Unless the mesmer had a stunbreaker, but you should also have a stunbreaker… so..

Carighan.6758:

Plus if you don’t die from the 2s fear on the runes, it hardly matters now, does it?

Its not the 2s fear the kills you, its what your enemy can do in those 2 seconds that you can’t. Again, he did nothing to gain those 2 seconds. You were feared because you attacked him.

You didn’t do anything extra for that Sigil of Generosity and it’s very different from an attack that applies a condition.

An attack that applies a condition does it without RNG (except Mesmer staff).

Engineer pistol AA will always bleed you … others will always confuse, poison, or burn you.
3rd Thief AA will always poison you.
Mesmer scepter AA will always inflict torment.

Additionally, you can’t dodge all AAs. The active defenses in this game are designed around dodging the big hits.

Lastly … you can work against someone who has this extra CC … have more CC breaks in your build.

There is counterplay to it.

Right, there is counterplay in any attack. (Well, most anyway. )

There is NO counterplay when MY attack results in ME being feared!

Just like there is no counterplay when your attack hits someone with retaliation?
Or when you attack and have confusion on you?
Or move and have torment on you?

Retaliation is almost as bad, but at least there is INDICATION/WARNING on the enemy that if I attack him, I can hurt myself. And I still have control over my character to handle it. I have options at least.

Same with Confusion and Torment, my enemy outplayed me in getting those conditions on me. I should have countered/avoided his attacks.

Nightmare Runes.. my enemy does NOTHING, and I lose control.

I’m not bashing Fear.. I’m bashing Nightmare Runes

SlimChance.6593:

Its not the 2s fear the kills you, its what your enemy can do in those 2 seconds that you can’t. Again, he did nothing to gain those 2 seconds. You were feared because you attacked him.

And if he had a rune which instead procced some damage on you, that could have killed you. I don’t see the difference, sorry.

Carighan.6758:

SlimChance.6593:

Its not the 2s fear the kills you, its what your enemy can do in those 2 seconds that you can’t. Again, he did nothing to gain those 2 seconds. You were feared because you attacked him.

And if he had a rune which instead procced some damage on you, that could have killed you. I don’t see the difference, sorry.

The difference is you can stunbreak the fear to completely counter it, but not the other runes damage lol.

This along with a bunch of passive crap simply needs icons like doom/intelligence sigils

Maybe one day

I’m sorry, this is silly. I don’t know how I got so confused….

I’ll just bring a stunbreaker for when I fear myself.

igiveup

Aw, we’re sorry that we don’t get why you magically have something against procced CC but nothing against procced damage.

What’s so bad about loss of character control? I mean really? Does it matter much whether you get feared for 2s and dealt X damage in that time or just get dealt X damage? Or burned? Or shocked? Or dotted up?

Yes, like Malafide said, runes need a nerf. Across the board, all of them. A heavy one at that.

But specifically this effect versus the others, what do you gather from nearly no one ever using them? That they’re blatantly overpowered and need a nerf? :P

SlimChance.6593:

Sebrent.3625:

Heck, I’m surprised Mesmer’s Mirror of Anguish hasn’t been included in here yet … you CC me and I get to automatically CC you too … I did nothing :-p

I was wondering when someone would point this out. And you are correct, the Mesmer does nothing and you are CC’d. However, currently, this is how Mirror of Anguish works. When you CC the Mesmer, BOTH the Mesmer AND the caster are CC’d. There is no “upper hand” and this is why you never see this trait in PvP. Yeah, its in that “grey area”, though.

If it actually did “reflect” the CC back to the caster, leaving the Mesmer untouched, then I would total agree that it too should not exist in PvP.

As far as your other points, with those I, as a player do not lose control of my character because of it. Yes they are passive and the wearer doesn’t have to do anything to gain a benefit from it. But my point with Nightmare runes is the “LOSING CONTROL when the enemy did nothing” aspect.

Bias much?

Your being particularly hypocritical here. It is irrelevant if the mesmer gets CC’d. The fact is that the opponent is CC’d and the mesmer does nothing to activate it. Justify it any way you want, but it doesn’t make it any better. Your condemning one and justifying the other. That makes it very clear that you do not want to solve the problem you proclaim exist. You simply want the aspect that effects you negatively on a personal level. You can either be okay with both existing or shun both.

SlimChance.6593:

50% chance when struck to inflict fear for 2 seconds. (Cooldown: 90 seconds)

Yes its on a 90 second cooldown, but I should NOT LOSE CONTROL of my character because of something I did and my enemy did NOTHING.

If this is ok, then where’s my “50% chance when struck to inflict STUN for 2 seconds.” or “50% chance when struck to inflict DAZE for 2 seconds” or “50% chance when struck to inflict KNOCKDOWN for 2 seconds” or…etc.

Just wondering????

stability is a thing =\.

and you can take away nightmare runes if we also get rid of might runes/sigils/celestial ammy.. etc etc etc

Yeah these runes need 100% to be removed, they’re actually worse than they used to be, if your build hinges on random hard CC then tough luck, won’t be sorry to see it go.

shimmerless.4560:

Yeah these runes need 100% to be removed, they’re actually worse than they used to be, if your build hinges on random hard CC then tough luck, won’t be sorry to see it go.

Similarly to how they need to remove traits such as defy pain and dogged March because they negate damage and soft CC without any action taken. How are you cherry picking what passive effects you are against? We have runes that create damage and poisons healing negation. On the other side we have things like healing signet and transmute, that negate damage and CC. Singling out specific passive aspects in itself, negates your own argument.

coglin.1867:

shimmerless.4560:

Yeah these runes need 100% to be removed, they’re actually worse than they used to be, if your build hinges on random hard CC then tough luck, won’t be sorry to see it go.

Similarly to how they need to remove traits such as defy pain and dogged March because they negate damage and soft CC without any action taken. How are you cherry picking what passive effects you are against? We have runes that create damage and poisons healing negation. On the other side we have things like healing signet and transmute, that negate damage and CC. Singling out specific passive aspects in itself, negates your own argument.

I’m not cherry picking anything, this thread is titled “Rune of Nightmare balance” and it is about Nightmare runes genius, and I’ve in fact said before that transmute is a horrible passive. I don’t really care what Coglin the unranked forums warrior thinks of my argument anyone else you talk to in this game who has a head on their shoulders will tell you fearlocking is lame and Nightmare runes are even lamer. They’ve been changed before because the devs acknowledged they were a problem and what they should’ve done is just removed them full stop because the design is whack at the core.

shimmerless.4560:

coglin.1867:

shimmerless.4560:

Yeah these runes need 100% to be removed, they’re actually worse than they used to be, if your build hinges on random hard CC then tough luck, won’t be sorry to see it go.

Similarly to how they need to remove traits such as defy pain and dogged March because they negate damage and soft CC without any action taken. How are you cherry picking what passive effects you are against? We have runes that create damage and poisons healing negation. On the other side we have things like healing signet and transmute, that negate damage and CC. Singling out specific passive aspects in itself, negates your own argument.

I’m not cherry picking anything, this thread is titled “Rune of Nightmare balance” and it is about Nightmare runes genius, and I’ve in fact said before that transmute is a horrible passive. I don’t really care what Coglin the unranked forums warrior thinks of my argument anyone else you talk to in this game who has a head on their shoulders will tell you fearlocking is lame and Nightmare runes are even lamer. They’ve been changed before because the devs acknowledged they were a problem and what they should’ve done is just removed them full stop because the design is whack at the core.

I can appreciate that it in the threads title. That does take away from my opinion that these runes are no better, and more so, no worse then most other runes and many traits. With that in mind, I feel a broader scope of conversation on the matter is deserved. I am of the camp that feels they simply add more flavor, as many of the other runes do. As well, it brings more context to the discussion to speak of the runes in a broader scope.

They are no worse then runes that proc poison and mitigate healing, nor are they more passive then runes that offer power and precision, or even ferocity. Because the added damage from those runes is no more negotiable then the fear proc from these runes are.

A random fear proc is a hell of a lot more potent than random poison or passive crit chance, what planet do you live on? It’s a hard CC that can be traited by one class in particular to deal damage and last upwards of 4 seconds in sPvP (longer in WvW). That is an unreal effect considering the player wearing the runes does not need to do anything or have any input whatsoever. Fear is classed as an interrupt and it can put your heal, your BV, your Mass Invis etc on an interrupted cooldown for having the temerity to attack a player in a PvP game

The reason these forums blow chunks for feedback is that you have people scrabbling away at theorycrafting and giving all these just-so answers to things they’ve never actually played nor played against.

Yeah, the only “cost” is that they’re using those runes. Many runes are crazy powerful (Malafide’s and mine point is that all runes need a heavy, heavy nerf).

So for giving you that fear, they are losing for example 7% damage + damage stats. I would argue that unless you’re a) wearing paper, b) are a zerker spec and c) do duelling no matter how little the devs support it then you’re actually losing less of the fight on that fear proc. Even against a necro, who the runes seem clearly targeted.

You know what would be worse. Having that fear on something reliable. You keep presenting it as if it’s bad to you that the fear procs automatically. It’s actually detrimental for the user, it’s part of the balance. Having it be reliable (say, proc on using elite) would make it much stronger.

shimmerless.4560:

A random fear proc is a hell of a lot more potent than random poison or passive crit chance, what planet do you live on? It’s a hard CC that can be traited by one class in particular to deal damage and last upwards of 4 seconds in sPvP (longer in WvW).

Please enlighten me how you can get a 2 second Fear, which obeys all of the normal rules of conditions, including the +100% duration cap, to longer than 4 seconds?

The reason these forums blow chunks for feedback is that you have people scrabbling away at theorycrafting and giving all these just-so answers to things they’ve never actually played nor played against.

Have you considered that maybe those of us saying the runes are fine both use and play against these and have figured out how to deal with them from both sides? I know I have. Even in PvP matches, you have multiple opportunities to fight someone using Nightmare runes, so you figure out the first time who has them and then engage them later prepared for the rune proc.

Oh, and the change regarding Mesmers wasn’t a rune change, it was a “clones don’t have runes anymore” change. Nightmare runes were just the most ubiquitous because they were found on a dungeon armor set naturally and the other dungeon sets don’t have as noticable of effects.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Have you considered that maybe those of us saying the runes are fine both use and play against these and have figured out how to deal with them from both sides?

Yes, that.
Although, kinda. I mean not many take the runes, they’re just not that strong. But I’ve been feared by them a few times. Fail to see the big use. It’s ok-ish as a Fear-Necro if you want something to annoy the HS Thief in WvW jumping you to get a fighting chance. But it costs you big time when you head into group or zerg fights and you got these runes equipped instead of something more powerful.
And that’s Fear Necro. For anyone else… well I guess same use case, anti-thief-gank, but much less reliably so.

LOL this thread is still going

What these guys are saying is that its too strong particularly on Necromancer and they do nothing and sacrifice nothing to get a nice effect eh?

How about the fact we need 8 trait points to get Terror + Master of Terror

What if I had a nice little icon on my bar that told you the Nightmare rune is ready to proc? We ok with that?

Probably not because most of you think that fear chaining is a cheap mechanic… if a Necro could not fear chain you then he would never kill you

Honestly the whole idea of “sacrifice nothing” is silly. At the very least I always give up ~10%-12% damage for not taking Runes of Strength in favour of a more PvP-centric rune. So at the very least there’s a sizeable damage loss.

Can I deal ~15% more damage (to make up for it) in the same time just because of the fear? I doubt it.
Can it rarely save my life? Well sure, but so could killing the enemy faster or pressuring them more. Or any of a myriad of other pretty strong rune effects. It seems the OP just has a sort of primal fear of auto-procs causing him to lose character control, though there’s no explanation where the phobia comes from, since other runes are clearly stronger (and as such, more frequently taken).

Here are the facts:

• People have learned to handle being feared by this and still win
• There exist other passives from traits/runes/sigils that don’t require a player to explicitly do anything … they are procs with ICDs too … but you don’t have a problem with them … despite some of them being CC as well.
• CC-locking is nothing new in this game and Nightmare Runes are often not involved at all with it. They most certainly are not necessary for it.
• CC-locking can be countered by CC-breaks and/or stability.

Your last post here can be summarized as:
“None of you agreed with me so I’m going to call it names and then try to sound like only I care about competitive PvP. I don’t like Nightmare Runes.”
… No points/facts … just immaturity.

i agree, the random proc is terrible.. so lets rework the proc like:

“Your minions now cause fear on death”
solved.. everyone happy because now you know when to expect a fear.. and you wont attack minions anyway.. why would you when you can burn trough the minion master with 2 control skills and a lot of pew pew..

bye now

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

i agree, the random proc is terrible.. so lets rework the proc like:

“Your minions now cause fear on death”
solved.. everyone happy because now you know when to expect a fear.. and you wont attack minions anyway.. why would you when you can burn trough the minion master with 2 control skills and a lot of pew pew..

bye now

I would use them on every MM build ever. Bone Minions become OP :p

That would be great for fighting melee that cleaves … it’d be like Mesmer on-clone-death traits … but even better because it’s a bloody CC and doesn’t require trait point investment.

Let’s not do that :-p

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

i agree, the random proc is terrible.. so lets rework the proc like:

“Your minions now cause fear on death”
solved.. everyone happy because now you know when to expect a fear.. and you wont attack minions anyway.. why would you when you can burn trough the minion master with 2 control skills and a lot of pew pew..

bye now

I would use them on every MM build ever. Bone Minions become OP :p

You’re thinking too small, use them with lich form. Massive fear due the 5 horrors.

I don’t care if it UP or OP, Nightmare runes and passive fears like this are unfun and hurt the pvp in this game. Mechanics like this lack counterplay and don’t really improve the experience for either player.

Maybe the current meta necro build needs things like this to survive, but justifying one terrible mechanic in order to handle a whole slew of other terrible mechanics that exist seems silly.

But that goes for all passive effects on runes, not just this one. Really, the problem is runes as a whole. They make your whole build, and that makes them way too powerful. Plus it’s not exactly easy or cheap to swap them out for something else.

@BlackBeard
Your argument is that nightmare runes offer no counterplay.

Others argument is that it offers the same level of counterplay as other passive traits/runes/sigils … in fact, more than some others that just simply do extra damage when a hit happens as opposed to this CC you can CC break in order to avoid giving your opponent a free 2s to do damage.

BlackBeard.2873:

I don’t care if it UP or OP, Nightmare runes and passive fears like this are unfun and hurt the pvp in this game. Mechanics like this lack counterplay and don’t really improve the experience for either player.

Maybe the current meta necro build needs things like this to survive, but justifying one terrible mechanic in order to handle a whole slew of other terrible mechanics that exist seems silly.

At what point do you differentiate between “bad” passive" and “okay” passive?

Reactive fear proc is bad, ok.
Reactive burn?
Passive percent damage increase under certain circumstances?
Passive health regen?
Stats in general? They’re stuff like passive damage increases, passive health increases, passive damage reductions, etc.

Where’s the cut-off? And why? And why should a RPG not be all about character power?

I think a proper way to balance “Passive play” in general should be that if there is no animation the draw back is that you get a predictable base effect that is not accumulative based on stats. That way the counter play becomes more about understanding.

This makes stacking passive builds and passive “gear” more in line being that predictability is much easier to outplay.

For example in terms of nightmare runes the proc don’t allow it to increase with condition duration have it be a strait 2 sec with a 90 sec c/d no more no less.

Boons via runes should work within the same context.

On the other hand if we do want visual effects perhaps instead of “chance on hit” what if it’s just a buff gained on the targeted bar. You know the type that says “when hit cause X effect”, maybe in terms of customization and character creation even add a visual to it, like an aura representative of the effect.

Hrm, that’s a very good idea, the reliable-effect one. Currently I feel like depending on my character’s spec and gear setup, I only have 2-3 runes to pick from anyhow, since they need to synergize in a stacking manner.

With that change, at least all effects would always be linear. It just becomes a matter of what goes well with what I want to do, then.

In many game forums discussions I’ve mentioned that instead of critical hits being RNG with a crit chance, having them be every X hits would be more skill-based.

I’d be all for changes that take away Y% chance and replace it with every X something. Lower skill levels won’t notice a difference but the higher skill levels will take advantage of the additional control they now have that was previous taken from them by RNG.

Sebrent.3625:

In many game forums discussions I’ve mentioned that instead of critical hits being RNG with a crit chance, having them be every X hits would be more skill-based.

I’d be all for changes that take away Y% chance and replace it with every X something. Lower skill levels won’t notice a difference but the higher skill levels will take advantage of the additional control they now have that was previous taken from them by RNG.

See, this is something I really wouldn’t like.
Handling a proc chance is all about player skill. It’s all about risk management, about knowing how far you can exert yourself while always having a Plan B and a reserve.

Remove that, and the fight becomes a lot easier.

We’ll have to agree to disagree there.

I have a 20% chance to proc on hit versus procs every kittens.

Over time, you’ll get the same number of procs with 20%, but sometimes it’ll be more and sometimes it’ll be less and you have no control over it.

With every kittens, you could have it proc at a particular time … perhaps as part of a rotation even.

You have more control over if/when it happens than you do with % chance.

Now, whether you prefer one or the other is something that is personal preference … but you have more control over a counter than you do a % chance.

Raven.9603:

SlimChance.6593:

You’re up against the new longbow ranger, and you outplay him, your in his face and your about to finish him off when your suddenly feared… as your feared away with your back to ranger….. Rapid Fire and your dead. Simply because you did your job and the Ranger did NOTHING!!!!

man i was agreeing with you until you made longbow ranger the antagonist.

F**k this, all rangers should now use nightmare runes.

;)

I knew that was the whole point from the second I read the OP. It wasn’t very hard to see through.

SlimChance.6593:

Sigil of Generosity.. I attack you, crit and transfer a condition to you. (Just like any other attack that applies a condition. I’m attacking you and apply a condition to you in my attack.) You can dodge, LOS, block do whatever to prevent the attack.

NightMare Runes.. I attack you and I’M feared. (see the difference)

Mirror of Anguish does not nullify the cc, the Mesmer is still cc’d. True, you’ve lost a cooldown, but the Mesmer did not have an advantage during the cc? Unless the mesmer had a stunbreaker, but you should also have a stunbreaker… so..

I Always see that as a great time for a nice Mind Wrack on my mesmer.

SlimChance.6593:

Carighan.6758:

Plus if you don’t die from the 2s fear on the runes, it hardly matters now, does it?

Its not the 2s fear the kills you, its what your enemy can do in those 2 seconds that you can’t. Again, he did nothing to gain those 2 seconds. You were feared because you attacked him.

Better get over to the Ele forums and demand Flame Barrier be removed too.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

kiwituatara.6053:

LOL. You can quadruple the duration of these runes on a ranger.

2s Fear x Moment of Clarity x Condition Duration = 8s Fear.

Slap on a shortbow and bleed from flanking.

I’ve had my fun shutting down necros and engis completely with these runes. I don’t mind seeing it nerfed.

Moment of clarity is only . Daze and stun .

And Fear. Tooltip is incorrect.

O;o really never knew.
Anet will have to check that, if its intended or not?

where is the counterplay to your stances? if running away was a counter then lich who only kills blind people would not have been nerfed into the ground.. you can always pop stability then cc a necro and that’s 2 fear procs gone in one hit

Not every skill in the game needs direct counter play. Strong combos, skills that change gameplay, heals, and big damage skills (killshot/100b/Eviscerate/Rapid fire/backstab ect.) do need to be looked at.

But a temporary defensive buff doesn’t need a hard counter unless you want to start playing rock paper sciccors.

Passives on the other hand replace the strong damage skills, and sometimes the healing, but especially the strong combos. They are not combos set up in combat, it is set up by gear/stat. This isn’t actually a bad thing But in the current there is no real distinct counter play, and I think we do need one for the health of the game.

Tim.6450:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

i agree, the random proc is terrible.. so lets rework the proc like:

“Your minions now cause fear on death”
solved.. everyone happy because now you know when to expect a fear.. and you wont attack minions anyway.. why would you when you can burn trough the minion master with 2 control skills and a lot of pew pew..

bye now

I would use them on every MM build ever. Bone Minions become OP :p

You’re thinking too small, use them with lich form. Massive fear due the 5 horrors.

shhht…. XD

Daishi.6027:

Passives on the other hand replace the strong damage skills, and sometimes the healing, but especially the strong combos. They are not combos set up in combat, it is set up by gear/stat. This isn’t actually a bad thing But in the current there is no real distinct counter play, and I think we do need one for the health of the game.

If you suspect passive A, prepare for it. Every single passive effect in the game has some form of counterplay.

In the case of Nightmare runes, it’s popping stability/Zerker stance before hitting the person (in the case of necros, best to do that and lead with hard CC to proc both Nightmare runes and Reaper’s Protection simultaneously), or having a stunbreak/instant cleanse ready in case your suspicions are correct.

I do think that Rune of Nightmare could use adjustment. When you get high condition duration, especially as a necro, it’s very easy to turn that 2 second fear into a 3.5-4 second fear- Which, as a Necro, also does a huge amount of damage.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Daishi.6027:

Passives on the other hand replace the strong damage skills, and sometimes the healing, but especially the strong combos. They are not combos set up in combat, it is set up by gear/stat. This isn’t actually a bad thing But in the current there is no real distinct counter play, and I think we do need one for the health of the game.

If you suspect passive A, prepare for it. Every single passive effect in the game has some form of counterplay.

In the case of Nightmare runes, it’s popping stability/Zerker stance before hitting the person (in the case of necros, best to do that and lead with hard CC to proc both Nightmare runes and Reaper’s Protection simultaneously), or having a stunbreak/instant cleanse ready in case your suspicions are correct.

I get what you are saying and I agree. Keeping something in reserve is what most players have to do. However how do you have any inkling of a passive existing unless you have already fought the person before? There is no problem with passive procs (as I stated on page 1) esp if they are made to be predictable.

However passive based builds don’t really have any core designed standards of counter play, and is only kept in check by context. It’s only a matter of time before we get another petting zoo meta and maybe next time we wont have hambow wont counter it >> So then all we get is nerfs and power creep buffs. <- To avoid such a thing you need proper ‘Design’.

Individual passive procs like nightmare runes having a counter is untimely a non issue tho I think it could use some work and not what I was pointing out as problematic.