Shatter changes?
Why change ileap back?, the old version had the worlds kittentiest pathing AI, which as you said is part of the problem, seems rather contradictory to me.
but otherwise i mostly agree with you.
The mere fact that you’re asking to revert the iLeap bugfix before even testing how effective it is tells me you are not thinking clearly. How about we let the patch drop and do some testing before we ask for changes?
I am referring to the “bug fix” or whatever it’s called that broke Swapping on clone death.
ya.. there is no reason we cant swap to the dead clones location. “the dead corpse makes a portal” whatever rpg crap you need to add to the tool tip.
the swap needs to work consistantly.. and also you cant just blow yourself up by blurring someone who has retaliation. what good is a move that hurts you more then it hurts them.
Yes, actually, there is a perfectly good reason. Because killing the clone is part of the counterplay.
that is a garbage reason.. what is the 500 health counter play to shadowstep.. or steal.
why should mesmer have added counterplay that is not actually counter play.. noone is killing the leap clone because they have god like reactions.. they are killing it by accident or by blanketing the floor with aoe garbage..
because you say “perfectly good reason” dosent make it an actual good reason.
I do not feel like it is a “garbage” reason at all. How do they have “added” counter play? They simply added a function that is congruent with the mesmer theme of clones.
And yes, because I call it a “perfectly good reason”, in my opinion, does, very literally make it one. At least it makes it as good of a reason as your claim that it is a “garbage reason”, makes it a bad reason.
Kind of doesn’t make a lot of sense to suggest AoE is garbage, considering many of the mesmer skills work in AoEs as well. Just saying.
do you main a mesmer? or do you main necro/ele.. or are you just someoen who hops from forum to forum commenting on everything..
if you have played mesmer for any amount of time you would realize how broken the leap ability is since the patch. in most situations it does nothing because the clone dies on spawn.. not from “counter play” but just from any single skill that hits with any range of aoe.
but again.. if you do not main a mesmer.. please dont make me explain stuff to you about the profession and go back to your necro/ele forum.
do you main a mesmer? or do you main necro/ele.. or are you just someoen who hops from forum to forum commenting on everything..
Your accusatory addition to your question makes it seem like you would rather be inflammatory then have a discussion, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
I apologize if my differing opinion, offended your delicate sensibilities. I do not “main” anything. I have had all professions to 80 for a very long time. So I have a bit of experience with my opinion. The first of the year I also got my 8th commander tag so I command on all 8 of my professions. Admittedly I rarely play ele these days but I do command on my necro and mesmer a lot, mostly because everyone thing you need a warrior or guardian.
if you have played mesmer for any amount of time you would realize how broken the leap ability is since the patch. in most situations it does nothing because the clone dies on spawn.. not from “counter play” but just from any single skill that hits with any range of aoe.
I would realize that would I? Forgive me if I am a fan of requiring thought into using ones skills. I feel popping up in any ones face from a range is more valuable then you do apparently, and feel if you use it so unwisely that you get your clone killed, that you were not deserving of using it.
but again.. if you do not main a mesmer.. please dont make me explain stuff to you about the profession and go back to your necro/ele forum.
Feel free to report my post if you feel I am out of line for having my opinion.
Don’t feed the troll please people, thanks
requiring thought on using ones skills? the thought is either there is aoe around you can not use it.. or there is 0 aoe i may be able to land this..
i have played 1000s of games using sword mainhand and with the change to clone death it is so unreliable that i am unable to use it now. so. counterplay added.
the counterplay isnt.. hmm he still has 1 dodgeroll left maybe i should try to bait that out.. hmm has he used blind.. does he have condi clear. blah blah..
if a person has a passive aoe ability or just likes to put cirlces on the floor you can not get a clone to them without it dieing. it does not add thought to the weapon.. the only thought is “i wish i had a different weapon right now”
if you are running dagger for necro you can imob.. the counterplay is dodge / blind. if you are blind you can burn that blind with something else or clear it.. hwo do you clear aoe from an area as a tactic in using your weapon.
if a person has a passive aoe ability
I am curious, what passive AoE abilities are you referring to?
dodge rolling bombs out.. cleave that will kill your clone as they attack someone else.. aoe ability that is happening without aoe being thier main intent but just as a biproduct of thier normal play.
an aoe ability that does not take " requiring thought into using ones skills. "
The new iLeap should be able to make shatter easier to land.
Longer duration torment hardly address the flaw in condition shatter due to not matching its “burst” nature. You spent a good amount of time to set up only to get your torment cleansed, as oppose to power shatter that instantly strip your opponent’s hp. So to address that is probably to double the confusion and/or torment stacks applied by condition shatter. Probably need a GM trait to restrict that, such as Miam. Increase confusion damage may not be a good idea since you’re basically buffing all other builds from other classes, so shatter still seems “sub par” compare to others.
Other than that I can think of switching vigorous revelation to illusion adept by swapping with compounding power, which is more suited to phantasm build in inspiration line. This specifically helps shatter mesmer to actively generate more shatter folders after the vigor nerf. I say active because you need to shatter to get this boon, as oppose to most mesmers who get half up-time vigor after crit with critical infusion. This should bring shatter mesmer more in line with other builds.
I’m not sure about shattered conditions and restorative illusions. When considered separately the effect of those two GM traits aren’t great due to heavily investment into a traitline that doesn’t really support shatter. Maybe combine them or drop one of them into master trait. Or introduce a decent master shatter trait at inspiration traitline, because that traitline is basically all about phantasms.
(edited by NICENIKESHOE.7128)
Yeah…reverting iLeap…? No thank you…
Two ways you can use the new iLeap:
1. cast and swap the instant the clone appears
2. cast and let the clone cripple before swapping
With the old iLeap that pathing was horrible and mostly unreliable. Op I think you need to dial that back and think things through a bit….
I will agree about eh BF change… It makes no sense to be immune to incoming damage under distortion and still take damage from retal….
Yeah…reverting iLeap…? No thank you…
Two ways you can use the new iLeap:
1. cast and swap the instant the clone appears
2. cast and let the clone cripple before swappingWith the old iLeap that pathing was horrible and mostly unreliable. Op I think you need to dial that back and think things through a bit….
I will agree about eh BF change… It makes no sense to be immune to incoming damage under distortion and still take damage from retal….
I am referring to the “bug fix” or whatever it’s called that broke Swapping on clone death.
Yeah…reverting iLeap…? No thank you…
Two ways you can use the new iLeap:
1. cast and swap the instant the clone appears
2. cast and let the clone cripple before swappingWith the old iLeap that pathing was horrible and mostly unreliable. Op I think you need to dial that back and think things through a bit….
I will agree about eh BF change… It makes no sense to be immune to incoming damage under distortion and still take damage from retal….
I am referring to the “bug fix” or whatever it’s called that broke Swapping on clone death.
That’s what I mean.
I know we’ve lived with it for nearly 2 years and even I can’t even believe it’s taken so long to “fix” something that doesn’t even seen to be an issue but it’s what we got to live with now…
Plus even I don’t think it made much sense to still be able to swap when you have no clone. A good indicator of “dead is dead” would be that your illusion counter decreased…
Whether it made much sense really doesn’t matter to me nor to most players who have had to endure this change. It killed off a weapon that was on life support at high level play to begin with.
so blakdoxa… you know how the logic and physics of mesmer clone swapping work? you know the clones arent supposed to be little people you make.. they are illusions right.
why wouldnt it be just as logical that you place some method of swapping into the illusion and that item stayed where the illusion was destroyed.
but if we are going to get into claiming to know how fantasy logic works in a video game then the conversation is just nerding.
there is no reason why you wouldnt be able to swap to a dead clone.. unless you make one up and think it makes sense to you.. then fight for it on the forums.
it is a made up mechanic in a fantasy video game.. you chose how you want it to work then build the logic around that..
it feels silly to have to explain this to the “you cant swap with a clone that is dead” crew.
so blakdoxa… you know how the logic and physics of mesmer clone swapping work? you know the clones arent supposed to be little people you make.. they are illusions right.
why wouldnt it be just as logical that you place some method of swapping into the illusion and that item stayed where the illusion was destroyed.
but if we are going to get into claiming to know how fantasy logic works in a video game then the conversation is just nerding.
there is no reason why you wouldnt be able to swap to a dead clone.. unless you make one up and think it makes sense to you.. then fight for it on the forums.
it is a made up mechanic in a fantasy video game.. you chose how you want it to work then build the logic around that..
it feels silly to have to explain this to the “you cant swap with a clone that is dead” crew.
There is now “dead clone” to swap with. For one, they were never alive. Secondly they are made of “ether” and upon dieing they shatter and the ether returns to the mist. There is actually a lot of cannon lore that work against your ideology as well. So one could say “fight back at you” when it comes to saying "it feels silly to have to explain this " back at you. I do not understand why you feel it is necessary to make a back handed remark toward everyone simply because they do not see it your way.
I agree with most of the OP sentiments about shatter, but I feel the topic is way to focused on the clone death = no swap. I get how this is frustrating but I feel with the upcoming changes to I-leap this more or less justifies the functionality, also I’d rather point to that as counter play than having more of those “Hurrp I-leap has no counter play deaarrp”
Which btw I do also believe is a decent although minor buff to shatter due to reliability.
As to my opinions on OP’s suggestions
I am completely down with the Blurred frenzy nerfs being revoked, now I could be bias, but I do feel with the abundance of low risk builds running around, and the amount of base survivability built into a lot of classes including the ones that go glass justifies a retweak if not a revoke.
Placing Portal as a base class mechanic on our F5 key would actually be a great change to utility feasibility. A lot of the times players are giving up something for portal that could make or break play. I think it also opens more options for diversity if all mesmers have access to portal right off the bat. Though I could see a lot of WvW players up in arms about it, but hey if you free up a utility on mesmers bar you might bring them back into the meta! Because lets be honest the feature pack changes wont effect mesmer’s place in the meta much and we’re still only going to be seen for our portal.
I am however strait up not a fan of moving the traits in inspiration to illusions unless they all are grandmaster. Restoritive illusions, and shattered conditions, are way to strong to be taken with Illusionary persona as well as maxing the illusions tree, AND having access to domination and dueling traits. I think something would have to be given up. Although a better solution I think would be moving them both down to the Master tier, allowing for 0/4/0/4/6 builds to be viable, giving up damage and boon strip for sustain.
As for the super touchy subject that is confusion… I think the problem with confusion is that it either does it’s job to well, or not at all. I think a better solution as opposed to ramping the damage up is to keep the current functionality but add a disabling effect along side with it… I’m thinking something along the lines of Chill’s cooldown increase.
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
I am however strait up not a fan of moving the traits in inspiration to illusions unless they all are grandmaster. Restoritive illusions, and shattered conditions, are way to strong to be taken with Illusionary persona as well as maxing the illusions tree, AND having access to domination and dueling traits. I think something would have to be given up. Although a better solution I think would be moving them both down to the Master tier, allowing for 0/4/0/4/6 builds to be viable, giving up damage and boon strip for sustain.
You are too ha0rd on yourself. I was like you once, you eventually come to realize that principles are meaningless and players on other classes have no qualms whatsoever about accepting crazy buffs and benefits if it’ll personally benefit them. I also think you’re overestimating the strength of these two traits, particularly Restorative Illusions. It would be a very fair trade for something like Illusionary Elasticity, it would not be even close to displacing any Dom traits.
edit: word filter
(edited by shimmerless.4560)
As for the new iLeap change, I am against it because it represents everything that’s badly designed in GW2. Infiltrator’s Strike is a bad skill: we do not need to use it to set the standards. There should be far more skills like iLeap (and no I don’t care what the Thief’s “role” is) and far less like this or Flashing Blade and so on.
Illusionary Leap was once balanced if very buggy and it stood almost alone amongst its competitors in this. It’s a terrible shame that this balance is going the way of the dodo.
that is a garbage reason.. what is the 500 health counter play to shadowstep.. or steal.
why should mesmer have added counterplay that is not actually counter play.. noone is killing the leap clone because they have god like reactions.. they are killing it by accident or by blanketing the floor with aoe garbage..
because you say “perfectly good reason” dosent make it an actual good reason.
+1, I just hope I’ll still have the potential to dodge out of the way before I’m immobilized and shattered to death by a 6 clone + blurred frenzy burst.
I don’t see the same argument posted on other classes’ immobilizing skills, the only way you counter those projectile immobilize (or instant immobilize in guardian scepter) is through dodging (same goes for iLeap AND iSwap, except iLeap AND iSwap has 2 chances of dodging), reflecting (rarely seen) or LoS (which the new patch will most likely also make iLeap LoS restricted). Yet before the patch people think it is balanced for mesmers to have an immobilize skill with unreliable pathing (can’t adjust to z-plane and failed distance calculation) and kill-able clone (which is easier to kill the further it travels)? Spare me the hypocrisy.
I’ll be honest, on-target summon is a lazy method to address both z-plane (iLeap is guaranteed messed up if go up/down/stairs/angled hills) pathing issue and failed distance calculation that considers going around a small rock as part of the 600 range. Emphasis on the lazy part, but it does, in a way, fix the two main issues I listed above.
As for the traits, I never mentioned putting those 2 Inspiration GM traits into Illusion traitline. All I said is adept trait vigorous revelation, which specifically helps most shatter metas that traited into the Illusion traitline. Is that an insane buff? I don’t think so, because almost all mesmers can achieve half-time vigor up with critical hits anyway. Shatter mesmer also need those dodges more than normal mesmer due to shatter folder demands. So I said it before and I’ll say it again, this specifically helps shatter mesmer (NOT all mesmers) to have closer skill floor to the rest of the metas from both mesmers and non-mesmers, which I assumed is what OP wants. (Edit here: closer skill floor with other metas, not easier.)
However something needs to be done on Inspiration traitline to make it more shatter friendly. When you look at major master inspiration trait there’s absolutely nothing about shatter, and all minor inspiration traits are about phantasm. Do I even need to say the conflicting relationships between shatter and phantasm?
(edited by NICENIKESHOE.7128)
I don’t think the other immobilize/leaps are balanced at all muffin, that’s precisely my point. I’m just letting out a sigh because the Mesmer leap was the only one that was exquisitely designed and offered reasonable counterplay. I understand that a lot of players wanted this as a quick fix over waiting even more long cold years for a more comprehensive change, but it’s still a terrible shame.
Shatter needs love, but TBH the buffs we are getting and the nerfs to S/D thief and war are enough to make me at least somewhat happy for now. Unlikely to throw us back into the meta but bottom tier won’t suck as much. Fingers crossed to be a comparable trade off slot for fresh air ele. (Tho unlikely but I can dream can’t I?)
A lot of the contextual hard counters against the build still exist but if engaging is more reliable and I’m not trying to play around eviscarate every 10 seconds and pre loaded 4k+ larcenous strikes I can be satisfied with that for now.
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
(edited by Daishi.6027)
My biggest issue with Shatter is that it’s not context-free. It shouldn’t be our class mechanic in the first place.
Clone- and Phantasm-generation should be. That’s the first step. Shatter is a step after that, something you do with the illusions.
So at the core, my proposal would be:
- Make F1-F4 generation clones and phantasms. Low-CD single clone gen, high-CD 3-clone fill-me-up, medium-CD phantasm with current weapons equipped, medium-CD Phantasmal Defender (small change, see below).
- Move Shatter-effects onto the weapons instead. Each such skill is on a low-ish CD and destroys one clone or phantasm if no clones are up for a specific, weapon-fitting effect.
Phantasmal Defender
Should also combine some effects of the Disenchanter. If you get hit by a condition while the buff is up, you lose the buff for the Defender eats the condition for you. Buff is re-applied as normal, ofc.
Don’t like the traits idea OR putting portal as a 5th profession mechanic. Would be cool..but no. Portal just needs a range indicator to tell us when it’s out of range.
Aaas for the iswap-“nerf”,“bugfix” whatever. Allow me to enter the debate as someone with a good amount of understanding of game balance, mechanics,and counter play.
First off I need to explain what I swap is….because many don’t REALLy know, and it is vital to understand the skill balance wise.(I will explain what it is before iswap nerf,after I swap nerf, and my prediction of after I leap buff (will be out soon)
explanation
I swap is a VERY small aoe immobilize AND/or teleport who’s location is dictated by the ileaps clone location.
It does no damage, and has a very short range. Even if the clone is 1200 distance away swap will only teleport the mesmer EXACLY 600 distance toward the location and immobilize targets(up to 3) around the area teleported to. If no targets are in the very small aoe nothing will be immobilized.(duh)
Before Iswap nerf believe it or not the skills functionality and total effectiveness remains EXACLY the same.
For example if there are 2 instances were we use the ileap and the clone goes to a location.1 in which the clone dies on contact, and another in which it is alive. After using swap the effectiveness and functionality remains EXACLY the same with the only difference in that the mesmer is down 1 clone in one instance than the other which results in less shatter fodder. If anything it’s more effective for the clone to be alive as that gives a shatter fodder AND the clone can home in on the target due to melee ai…
Now let’s look at ileap.
I leap before the upcoming changes is a clone creation skill that also sends the clone toward the target in a leap to dictate the next skill in the chain, swap’s, location.
It does relatively no damage (only 2-10hp loss….) and applies only 1 second of cripple and 2 stacks of vuln… Overall i leap is worthless in use. It does no damage and the 1 sec cripple and only 2 stacks of vulnerability is worthless on a 12 sec cd by itself.
It also has some major limitation for a leap-type skill.
1)It can only really be used at 600 range otherwise a clone is not even created.
2)And has patching issues (fixed in next patch…hopefully)
3) does no damage on contact
4)conditions are usless when looking at duration vs uptime
Ok. Now that we understand what we looking at let’s get in to it.
I’ve been looking over the arguments of why a mesmer should not be able to use their swap skill and I can’t help but laugh. The argument that “you cant swap with a clone that does not exist” is very simply idiotic in this situation. Not because it does not make sense verbally. It most certainly does when looking at the description of the skill and its name.
However pointing out a simple flaw with wordplay is hardly a stand for “balancing” a skill in a game like this. This type of stand can only work in games such as yugioh or magic the gathering in which the descriptions of the cards are the mechanics to be interpreted and balanced thusly.
Although if you do not believe me then why are we ignoring
Thief Heart seeker which clearly states that it needs a target and yet can be used without one?
There are many others such as warriors rush which also can be used without a target. Or even better “charge” that can be used to charge away from a enemy. XD
So no, stating that “you can’t swap with a clone that’s dead” is not a very strong argument in this case.
And I find it funny that many started stating such arguments only after anet “fixed” this skill out of the blue years after release in which time period there was no such complaints about this skills functionality.
Very funny how trolls hating a certain class would make such a attack by coming out of the wood work so as to make themselves think that maybe anet would read such arguments and think their actions were just. Very funny.
Although just for fun my dear trolls. Here’s some food for thought.
if you still continue to use this stand against mesmer ileap don’t be surprised and filled with grief when your heart-seeker,charge,leap of faith,swoop,ride the lightning ect all across the class’s can’t be casted when a target is not selected
:3
It’s called karma. And hay it’s your philosophy
(edited by Chaos.3579)
Getting back to the argument however.
Overall even when calculating the new ileap teleport functionality it still has much counter ability that most other class’s do not need to worry about. In addition to it just being a week skill.
1)cant be used without a target
2) can’t be used at all when out of range
3) can easily be dodged/avoided even if the mesmer gets in range
4) does no damage whatsoever
With i swap nerf
5) can be easily avoided with simple Cleve /aoe damage…..that does not even need any thought to do as such damage is applied without even trying near 100% of the time. Making the skill very unreliable and useless…..
The i swap nerf resulted in the skill losing most if not all of its reliability even when calculating in the new ileap functionality.
And more importantly it destroyed the play style that made sword fun and unique
As well as the skill cap as now the skill needs to be spammed in order to be even remotely effective instead of timing the iswap.
Additionally the highest skill requiring mobility functionality known to the game in my mind after nearly 2 years of playing all professions was totally eliminated
The mobility skill that required
1) being in range
2) only having a teleport in the direction of were the enemy is or was.
Just had such a high demand of the player and his or her timing and creativity.
Hardly comparable to other class’s mobility leaps which can be used without a target, out of range, and in the direction away from the target.
So overall balance wise it was a idiotic nerf that totally devastated Mesmer sword playstyle and skill cap without even the slightest fix to a imbalance that existed beforehand….
The mobility use of the skill is pathetically week in comparison to other class’s, and aside from that the total effectiveness of the skill is more effective if the clone is not killed
So please explain to me what imbalance I am missing game mechanically wise?
I cant find one even if I tried pointing out the devil in the details
Because there really is none
If anything the skill should have been buffed in functionality.
Such as being able to summon the i leap clone that will leap (or teleport ) its 600 distance from the player even when out of range so it can be used as a mobility skill and eliminate that restriction (aside from needing a target) that other class’s do not need to worry about.
This entire fiasco obviously resulted from anet making a unintentional mistake which after finding out simply stated they did It on purpose in the patch notes. So as to conceal their mistake and deviate a lot of the “anet creates bugs” hate
Or someone in the balance team decided to balance actual game machanics based on their descriptions instead of trying to comprehend the effect such decisions would
Have. Most likely making such a decision without even being remotely aware of mesmer play style and functionality due to never playing one to a sufficient level.
This is my observation as someone who understand mesmer play style to a sufficient level as well as many other class’s to compare with
(edited by Chaos.3579)
Although after reading the tital i would recommend slight changes in regards to shatter functionality.
1) the buff distortion should really activate before the illusions are even shattered and have a effect based on the number of illusions active during activation before it goes on cd. Annoys me when the distortion illusions take their sweet time to shatter. Most Likely due to their target stealthing which results in a delay or worse one of the clones dying seconds after pressuring the distortion button resulting in a reduced effectiveness even though the distortion skill went on cd already seconds before the clone was destroyed.
Additionally I think for the functionality of shatters in regards to stealth targets the clones should shatter immediately at their current location if a target stealths.
Sure its nice if the clones charge were the target stealths. But it’s not nice if the clone does not shatter even though we already know the thief or stealth end target is right next to the clone in the first place.
Also a slight change in functionality to shatters conditions would also be nice.
Would be nice if the conditions were automatically removed based on the number of illusions right when the skill goes on dc and not when the clones shatter.