Guild Wars 2

Do people feel like that these sigils give entirely too much for being just sigils?

Having the sigil of energy is basically the equivalent of having the vigor boon on you, permanently.

The sigil of battle makes it entirely too easy for any class for the most part to stack might.

To me, they honestly give too much and are too build defining.

Actually, I don’t have a problem with might stacking in general, in terms of the numbers, I only feel like that it just lasts too long and it is too sustained. 25 stacks shouldn’t be something that can be achieved by yourself and sustained, but by at least having 2 other people. My suggestion would be to just nerf the duration from 20 seconds to 15 seconds. This I don’t think kills might stacking builds who choose to go that route, however, still makes it very viable, it just doesn’t last for a stupidly long amount of time.

Sigil of energy to me provides too many dodges, to the point where people can almost freely waste them rather then use it at opportune times. I think making it restore a 1/3 of your endurance is fair.

Clearly, this change by itself doesn’t make other sigils that much more enticing, which is why some other sigils need to be buffed up.

I would imagine a doom sigil lasting 20 sec… NO!

No. I think it is fine. As well, I do not think it is like having vigor on you at all. I mean I see what your saying, but the sigils stack with vigor.

dancingmonkey.4902:

No. I think it is fine. As well, I do not think it is like having vigor on you at all. I mean I see what your saying, but the sigils *stack* with vigor.

I see what you are saying. But my point is, say a class has limited access to vigor, like a necro, or a warrior. This sigil pretty much circumvents this. And if a class has vigor AND this sigil, there is just too much dodging.

If I am not mistaken you get 1 dodge every 10 seconds naturally. With vigor you will get two dodges every 10 seconds. With the sigil you will get 3 dodges every 10 seconds, not including certain traits which refund you some dodging. That is literally a dodge every 3.3 seconds. Dodging shouldn’t come at such an easy of an investment.

Eh its the grand scheme of things sigils are fine. There have been complaints about fire+air combo, Doom+geomancy, Inteli+(something?) there are also many other good sigils. Obviously you can only use 2 at a time. Who is to say what is op when there are many good options.

vincecontix.1264:

Eh its the grand scheme of things sigils are fine. There have been complaints about fire+air combo, Doom+geomancy, Inteli+(something?) there are also many other good sigils. Obviously you can only use 2 at a time. Who is to say what is op when there are many good options.

And even more worst option…

Klonko.8341:

vincecontix.1264:

Eh its the grand scheme of things sigils are fine. There have been complaints about fire+air combo, Doom+geomancy, Inteli+(something?) there are also many other good sigils. Obviously you can only use 2 at a time. Who is to say what is op when there are many good options.

And even more worst option…

Your right there are some pretty bad sigils but my point was as great as battle and energy are they are not the go to sigil for everyone. Depending on your spec there might be better options.

vincecontix.1264:

Klonko.8341:

vincecontix.1264:

Eh its the grand scheme of things sigils are fine. There have been complaints about fire+air combo, Doom+geomancy, Inteli+(something?) there are also many other good sigils. Obviously you can only use 2 at a time. Who is to say what is op when there are many good options.

And even more worst option…

Your right there are some pretty bad sigils but my point was as great as battle and energy are they are not the go to sigil for everyone. Depending on your spec there might be better options.

Yeah I know

But for diversity sake, more “balanced sigil/rune” could be fun!

I would like to see a sigil that pop protection/stabitlity on swap! It would lead to some tought before swapping.

Battle is not something you may care that much for unless your purpose is to try get higher Might stacks on your own for a specific build. On their own, they can at most provide 6 stacks of Might, not that that’s bad, but.. that’s after 20 seconds if you’re able to squeeze out every skill on each weapon within practically seconds (not too smart). Energy gives you one dodge, every 10 seconds, if you swap your weapon at that time. I don’t see the reason for complaint here. Keep in mind that their ICD is 9 seconds, and weapon swaps take 10 seconds to be available in most cases. You may not want to swap then.

Battle is good for Hybrid builds

Energy is good on offsets for a dodge

Fire, Air, and Blood are good for Zerker builds

Doom is good for builds lacking poison

Intelligence is good for low crit chance builds

These are some of the most commonly used sigils. You take the ones that fit what you’re building for. Battle is weaker than Air on zerk builds. Intelligence is weak on condi builds and high crit chance builds.

Are the sigils themselves too strong? Maybe. Build combinations that become meta are due to the combined strength of sigils and the rest of the build qualities. Sigils cover pretty much every conceivable type of build, and of the ones commonly used none stand out as used in every meta build.

Could you nerf sigils to nerf meta builds? You could, but by nerfing sigils you’re impacting more than just a single meta build. If there’s a problem with a build being too strong, it’s better to keep changes isolated to things like traits, weapon skills, and utilities.

The only time I can think of it making sense to nerf sigils or even runes is when you want to diversify the viable sigils. There’s enough viable sigils currently that there is probably not a need to nerf them, but it could be done. Accuracy and Force fell by the wayside for example after the April patch went out, not that it’s a big deal that those two aren’t in play.

IMO, virtually all sigils and runes are currently contributing way too much.

To give a comparison, I’d see balanced sigils and runes which don’t overshadow your character at about these power levels:

Sigil of Energy
If above 50% Endurance when you swap to this weapon, gain 25% endurance.

Runes of Nightmare
1. 10 condition damage.
2. 5% Fear duration
3. 20 condition damage.
4. -5% incoming Fear duration.
5. 30 condition damage.
6. Fear Mastery: When you fear targets, you deal some damage to them. When you are feared, you heal some damage.

Try to survive a full sfr zergball without 3 dodges

Sigils and runes are very strong and important, they are part of the “build diversity” get used to it. Every class has the same access to it except ele and engineer which have a slight disadvantage here.

Battle and energy seem to be very strong but even if you delete those, they will get replaced and the whine starts again because blaXY is so strong in blaYX-build.

McWolfy.5924:

Try to survive a full sfr zergball without 3 dodges

Why fix the symptoms?

Kontrolle.3514:

Sigils and runes are very strong and important, they are part of the “build diversity” get used to it. Every class has the same access to it except ele and engineer which have a slight disadvantage here.

But they reduce the number of viable setups instead of adding to it, courtesy of their multiplicative interaction with the trait/item based power.

I’ve got nothing to add past my resounding NO.

I play a ton of classes, and I play against all classes. There’s nothing about these that aren’t counterable.

I use these on my ele. Just because they’re useful doesn’t mean they’re overpowered.

One gives 6 stacks of might. It’s basically the new bloodlust sigil.

The other improves skilled play by giving dodges. Promote skilled play, don’t kill it.

I dont see a problem with +4/8 classes having 30% invul uptime.

I also dont see a problem with perma passive +500 dps / +400 hps .

Carighan.6758:

IMO, virtually +all+ sigils and runes are currently contributing way too much.

To give a comparison, I’d see balanced sigils and runes which don’t overshadow your character at about these power levels:

*Sigil of Energy*
If above 50% Endurance when you swap to this weapon, gain 25% endurance.

*Runes of Nightmare*
1. 10 condition damage.
2. 5% Fear duration
3. 20 condition damage.
4. -5% incoming Fear duration.
5. 30 condition damage.
6. Fear Mastery: When you fear targets, you deal some damage to them. When you are feared, you heal some damage.

I think you are the only person that even remotely understood what I was trying to get at. I never mentioned anything about Sigil of Energy and Sigil of Battle being overpowered although it could have been inferred indirectly, which isn’t what I intended.

Sigil of Battle and Sigil of Energy I said were too "build defining" in my opinion and provide much more then they actually should to the said builds. Yes other sigils are used for sure, but that isn’t an argument for these sigils in particular giving more than they actually should. They aren’t overpowered per se, but for being sigils they have too much impact on builds and what not.

And I do agree that across the board, there are many sigils and runes that provide too much. These were just the two sigils I picked that really epitomized that.

And Mblech, I dont understand your reasoning about more dodges = more skilled play. How does that even make sense? Having more access to dodges means that you are more likely to use it when you shouldn’t.

Having less dodges = more skilled play which means that you have to time your dodges properly instead of using them so liberally. In fact with less dodging, the opponent can better gauge and time how many dodges a person has blown. With having so many dodges, this is much harder to do.

No… how can having less dodges equal more skilled play?

What would you rather see in a duel? Let’s take a D/D elementalist and a Zerk Mace/X Axe/X warrior.

If you give an ele less dodges, he’ll have no chance.. But if you give him more, he has a better shot..

Your reasoning and your logic are flawed “It can’t be skilled because if you have more, you can just waste them on nothing.” How can you base skill on the people who waste their opportunities?

A skilled person will make perfect use of their dodges. And trust me, in large fights there’s always something large coming at you that deserves a dodge.

Rather than nerf the sigils which some classes require to stand a chance. Maybe nerf the other classes over abundance of damage avoidance.

Mbelch.9028:

No... how can having less dodges equal more skilled play?

What would you rather see in a duel? Let’s take a D/D elementalist and a Zerk Mace/X Axe/X warrior.

If you give an ele less dodges, he’ll have no chance.. But if you give him more, he has a better shot..

Your reasoning and your logic are flawed "It can’t be skilled because if you have more, you can just waste them on nothing." How can you base skill on the people who waste their opportunities?

A skilled person will make perfect use of their dodges. And trust me, in large fights there’s always something large coming at you that deserves a dodge.

And what if that warrior also uses sigil of energy? Wouldn’t he have less dodges as well? Thus giving the elementalist a better chance? And if the warrior doesn’t use sigil of energy, it doesn’t have a lot of dodging capability to rely on anyway. It works both ways.

An elementalist who has more dodges doesn’t mean the level of skilled play increases. Learning how to use what you have does, however, the more you have, the more likely you are to waste it and this concept is applicable to almost anything spend real life, i.e the more money you have the more likely you are to waste that money on things that don’t necessarily benefit you (waste).

The only thing that increases is the chance for that elementalist to win. I think you mix the two up. More dodges doesn’t equal more skilled play. And as you know just because you win doesn’t necessarily mean you are skilled by any means or just because you are disadvantaged or you lose doesn’t mean you aren’t skilled. You could have 1000 dodges and that doesn’t increase the level of skilled play one bit. Increasing might stacks doesn’t increased skilled play, increasing damage doesn’t increase skilled play, etc.

I also don’t base my argument on people wasting opportunities. Truth is, even the most skilled of players "waste" opportunities. It is impossible to make "perfect" use of dodges. Having more dodges encourages more wastage, no matter if you are the best or the worst player in the game. A skilled player may "waste" it less but they are still prone to it regardless.

My logic isn’t "it can’t be skilled because it can be wasted on nothing". Please point out within my post where I said that. I said that having more access to dodging makes it more likely to waste the opportunities when given in abundance.

I just said that more dodging does not equate to more skill, I didn’t say that having more dodging can’t be skilled, a big difference. Even if I used that logic, yours would be on the extreme opposite side of that "more dodging = more skilled play".

I also pointed out as well that it also makes keeping track of dodging much more worthwhile.

Energy has been a problem since the start of the game but changing it apropos of anything else would make some classes simply non-viable. There’s just too much damage in the game to go without.

Battle Energy Fire Air Blood Doom Intelligence Strength Geomancy

How about the fact these are pretty much the only sigils used? Either nerf these or buff everything else

The disparity between these sigils and the other “niche” sigils is too high

spoj.9672:

Rather than nerf the sigils which some classes require to stand a chance. Maybe nerf the other classes over abundance of damage avoidance.

^^ This.

Please, all the vigor buffs, vigor on crit, dodging gives back endurance, evade skills, invuln skills, block skills, etc.

Those are fine…

But getting one more dodge every 10s requiring a weapon swap, THAT"S the problem…

ugh, where is my “rolling my eyes” emoticon! forum people get on that!

It’s actually worse than you realize.

Sigil of Energy is overpowered but it’s old news. Double damage sigils or damage+battle is where it’s at. #powercreep

I agree with Carighan.6758 that atm several runes/sigils affect your build/balance too much. Design wise I like the concept of runes like Citadel where they have minor effects but can be combined with traits to make them more powerful (I’m fairly sure the bomb summoned is effected by explosive traits). That’s really interesting mechanically but you never really see those build-focused runes being used because something like Strength is simply better.

Same with sigils, it’s almost never a bad idea to have Battle and Energy. Some builds are obviously better with other options but more power/condi damage and more dodges is never a bad thing. Being able to double up on Fire/Air was also probably not the best idea. I would have been satisfied if they made “on crit/hit” sigils have a separate CD from “on swap” sigils. This would mean that you couldn’t have Battle and Energy or Fire and Air on the same weapon. They could probably just disallow you from even placing them on the weapon so players can’t make the mistake of doing so.

There’s always going to be an “optimal” choice more than likely, but either the underpreformers need to be brought up or the current options everyone uses need a slight tone down. Even reducing the might gained by 1 and reducing the endurance gain by a little bit would probably keep them viable but not make them such a universal answer. The Ferocity patch lead to gear/runes/sigils being just as if not more important than your traits. Some may like that but personally I want my traits to be the meat of the build and everything else to either add to it or slightly compensate for weaknesses, not completely cover them.

and warrior is the sigil proc machine, every single warrior build relies on sigil to do most of the job, gg, because they actually do kitten damage even with zerker and cant survive without tankier amulet and traits. GG, GG.

Mbelch.9028:

No… how can having less dodges equal more skilled play?

Because you’d actually have to plan ahead instead of hopping around like a tripping bunny? :P
But ignoring that for a moment, the OP’s point is that sigils are overshadowing the character. Not that you dodge too much. Big difference. Remove the endurance gain, add it to everyone as a trait option, GM in a PVP-centric tree. Or add a signet to everyone which does that but on the healing slot so there’s some weight behind the choice.

But put the power into the character.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I want my traits to be the meat of the build and everything else to either add to it or slightly compensate for weaknesses, not completely cover them.

A build is everything, not just your Traits. It is your selected stats, down to fine tuning your exact Critical Chance, Health and so on forth. It’s your Sigils, your choice in weapons for your profession, your Runes, the combination of different Runes at that for some builds.. at least when not thinking about the all too boring sPvP and it’s limited ability to create interesting builds due to lack of customization in all of the above.

The fact that everything plays in, makes it so that you can have basically the same exact Traits and weapons do vastly different things for you, based on your other choices, such as the stats, Runes, and Sigils. That’s thanks to how the skills are designed, with a lot of them dealing conditional and physical damage. Where you place your focus is up to you. I like that.

Battle is nice, I use it currently, but I haven’t used it before recently when I wanted a bit more Might stacking on my new/altered Mesmer build. It’s the first time I’ve felt I want it in two whole years. Energy however, I have used since forever, Deceptive Evasion, that’s about it. I shouldn’t need to explain it.

@Absconditus:
Yes, and exactly that mechanic is what’s causing so many balance worries as there’s virtually no identity or reliable mechanic. You don’t have “Necromancers based on attrition” simply because “Necromancers” already fails to make sense. A DS-Zerker Necro in full PvE loadout has zip in common with a backline wells-supporter for WvW. They are completely different.

But while this might seem like a very good thing, it’s also causing a lot of issues. There’s no baseline upon which to base any balance, no expected class performance, no class identity, nothing.

And at the very least, gear should be taken more out of the equation, meaning character-class, -skill and -traits should matter more compared to sigils and runes. That at least removes some parts of the issues, also all remaining parts are class-specific and as such can then be tuned to fully differentiate the classes.

Why though? Just because you feel that way? I think your gear choices should be a huge impact to your overall build, what’s the point of gear if it’s simply thrown to the wayside and your traits completely dominate? I just simply can’t agree. I think all elements of a build should be important. If certain sigils seem too good compared to every other option, lets look to upgrade those other options rather than nerf what’s good.

Absconditus.6804:

Battle is not something you may care that much for unless your purpose is to try get higher Might stacks on your own for a specific build. On their own, they can at most provide 6 stacks of Might, not that that’s bad, but.. that’s after 20 seconds if you’re able to squeeze out every skill on each weapon within practically seconds (not too smart). Energy gives you one dodge, every 10 seconds, if you swap your weapon at that time. I don’t see the reason for complaint here. Keep in mind that their ICD is 9 seconds, and weapon swaps take 10 seconds to be available in most cases. You may not want to swap then.

Elementalists and Kit Engineers will pretty much proc these on cooldown with their regular rotations – attunement swapping and equipping/de-equipping a kit proc weapon swap sigils. Warriors can get their weapon swap time reduced to 5s, so don’t get as ‘stuck’ in one weaponset as much as other classes.

i have bias against sigil of intelligence, they allow classes with fast swaps invest more into survival where other classes have to sacrifice everything for crit tree

Jerus.4350:

Why though? Just because you feel that way?

Yes, well. I expect it’d help balance in the mid~long term.
With less variables, and more shared potential eliminated, it becomes easier to turn knobs.

Thing is that right now, everything in GW2 is meant to multiply with everything else. So if a dev increases damage by 50 somewhere, you can expect that to be 500-1000 effective damage difference in specialized builds, while it’s 0 added damage to other builds.

The variability is huge, and makes tweaking numbers terribly inefficient, as you’d always have to change stuff across the board to not over- or undernerf something. But then you affect all classes because Runes and Sigils are shared.

Would be easier to greatly reduce them in power so they can for the most part be ignored when considering numerical and mechanical balance.
It also eliminates situations where a class can provide an effect due to gear effects alone which then interacts weird with the actual class mechanics (Runes of Perplexity? :P ). Ofc you could nerf the class-interaction, but why fix the symptom instead of the cause?

But yes, TLDR, I feel there’s too many things which need tweaking to rebalance something. Remove some of the shared elements to get a better hold on per-class balance.

i’m fine with battle and energy sigils the way they are.

Eh I think currents sigils are fine all there are available to all profs and whose to say how much sigils+runes should impact your build?

So lets make a list of current best sigil options(Spvp/WvW).

Energy, Battle, Doom, Intelligence, Geomancy, Torment, Coruption, Bloodlust, Air, Fire Generosity, Bursting, Malice, Incapacitation, Force, Agony, Hydromancy, Nullification, Strength and Cleansing.

Does anyone have any other sigils they consider using depending on there build or team comp?

Carighan.6758:

Jerus.4350:

Why though? Just because you feel that way?

Yes, well. I expect it’d help balance in the mid~long term.
With less variables, and more shared potential eliminated, it becomes easier to turn knobs.

Thing is that right now, everything in GW2 is meant to multiply with everything else. So if a dev increases damage by 50 somewhere, you can expect that to be 500-1000 effective damage difference in specialized builds, while it’s 0 added damage to other builds.

The variability is huge, and makes tweaking numbers terribly inefficient, as you’d always have to change stuff across the board to not over- or undernerf something. But then you affect all classes because Runes and Sigils are shared.

Would be easier to greatly reduce them in power so they can for the most part be ignored when considering numerical and mechanical balance.
It also eliminates situations where a class can provide an effect due to gear effects alone which then interacts weird with the actual class mechanics (Runes of Perplexity? :P ). Ofc you could nerf the class-interaction, but why fix the symptom instead of the cause?

But yes, TLDR, I feel there’s too many things which need tweaking to rebalance something. Remove some of the shared elements to get a better hold on per-class balance.

It’s the problem they chose to have when they decided to give us options. These options add flavor to the game. Want to really fix balance? Remove everything b ut 1 build of warrior with 1 set of weapons/runes/sigils/weapons and have at it. Perfect balance!!!

But no, they wanted to have a more diverse game with more options and more builds and more variety. That’s specifically why I was turned off Wildstar, they simply didn’t have that flavor I was looking for, there wasn’t the interesting stuff because they really wanted to focus on balance. Too much focus on balance means less risks making cool stuff.

Yes things like Perplexity runes are a bit… hmm… should they really exist? but at the same time I rather have some stuff be OP and have them over time tweak things to try to find a balance than not have that kind of stuff at all.

I think Sigil of Battle is wrongly blamed for problems with Might stacking on certain classes. It’s always been a great sigil, no question, but it wasn’t a problem in the context of Might stacking… until a certain patch introduced Runes that made super high Might stacks a breeze to get and maintain.

Jerus.4350:

It’s the problem they chose to have when they decided to give us options. These options add flavor to the game. Want to really fix balance? Remove everything b ut 1 build of warrior with 1 set of weapons/runes/sigils/weapons and have at it. Perfect balance!!!

But no, they wanted to have a more diverse game with more options and more builds and more variety. That’s specifically why I was turned off Wildstar, they simply didn’t have that flavor I was looking for, there wasn’t the interesting stuff because they really wanted to focus on balance. Too much focus on balance means less risks making cool stuff.

Yes things like Perplexity runes are a bit… hmm… should they really exist? but at the same time I rather have some stuff be OP and have them over time tweak things to try to find a balance than not have that kind of stuff at all.

Ah don’t get me wrong, I’m of the mind that sPvP is a, sorry, stupid way to base your balance on because anyone who wants 1-versus-1 balance in a MMO really ought to log off, delete their account and re-examine their priorities when gaming.

That being said, I want overpowered stuff in the sense that classes are hugely powerful in what they do. The sigils/runes are shared power, so they are purely multipliers. They don’t really offer many options either IMO, you got spec X and class Y with weapons Z, pick sigil B and rune E. Done. There’s always a “best” with them, and you cannot tweak it per-class since well, shared.

I’d rather have classes feel overpowered.

All I can say is that personally I have 3 different ascended greatswords just with different sigils on my guardian alone. I do this because to me different situations call for different sigils and to me that’s enough to say that there are options, now are there some terrible options, absolutely, and I’d love to see more options but to do that I don’t want to nerf the ones I use, lets buff the ones people don’t use.

Jerus.4350:

and I’d love to see more options but to do that I don’t want to nerf the ones I use, lets buff the ones people don’t use.

See, I’d use the exact opposite simply because I think comparing class-effects (skill choice, weapon choice, trait choice versus shared choices (gear stats, sigils, runes), I feel the second should be weaker.

Carighan.6758:

Jerus.4350:

and I’d love to see more options but to do that I don’t want to nerf the ones I use, lets buff the ones people don’t use.

See, I’d use the exact opposite simply because I think comparing class-effects (skill choice, weapon choice, trait choice versus shared choices (gear stats, sigils, runes), I feel the second should be weaker.

That’s just a good way to kitten off a lot of people. Why lower player power when you can let it be the same? I mean power creep is bad, so you want to avoid that, but kittening off players is bad too and you want to avoid that as well.

And with that, their track record of soft handed nerfs isn’t all that great, it’s smash it into dust with the nerf bat or don’t touch it at all.

Carighan.6758:

Mbelch.9028:

No… how can having less dodges equal more skilled play?

Because you’d actually have to plan ahead instead of hopping around like a tripping bunny? :P
But ignoring that for a moment, the OP’s point is that sigils are overshadowing the character. Not that you dodge too much. Big difference. Remove the endurance gain, add it to everyone as a trait option, GM in a PVP-centric tree. Or add a signet to everyone which does that but on the healing slot so there’s some weight behind the choice.

But put the power into the character.

I think we all have different opinions on where the game should be.

When you put all the power into the character, you’re making an imbalanced situation. When you let every character access the same powerful things, you’re correcting balance by choice.

To address the bunny thing. Some people waste their dodges. That’s their problem.

I don’t. They’re super useful, and I hope my enemies have them as well.

More dodges means a higher level of speed in a fight. Some people are afraid of an increased speed. I don’t want a slower paced game.

killahmayne.9518:

Mbelch.9028:

No… how can having less dodges equal more skilled play?

What would you rather see in a duel? Let’s take a D/D elementalist and a Zerk Mace/X Axe/X warrior.

If you give an ele less dodges, he’ll have no chance.. But if you give him more, he has a better shot..

Your reasoning and your logic are flawed “It can’t be skilled because if you have more, you can just waste them on nothing.” How can you base skill on the people who waste their opportunities?

A skilled person will make perfect use of their dodges. And trust me, in large fights there’s always something large coming at you that deserves a dodge.

And what if that warrior also uses sigil of energy? Wouldn’t he have less dodges as well? Thus giving the elementalist a better chance? And if the warrior doesn’t use sigil of energy, it doesn’t have a lot of dodging capability to rely on anyway. It works both ways.

An elementalist who has more dodges doesn’t mean the level of skilled play increases. Learning how to use what you have does, however, the more you have, the more likely you are to waste it and this concept is applicable to almost anything spend real life, i.e the more money you have the more likely you are to waste that money on things that don’t necessarily benefit you (waste).

The only thing that increases is the chance for that elementalist to win. I think you mix the two up. More dodges doesn’t equal more skilled play. And as you know just because you win doesn’t necessarily mean you are skilled by any means or just because you are disadvantaged or you lose doesn’t mean you aren’t skilled. You could have 1000 dodges and that doesn’t increase the level of skilled play one bit. Increasing might stacks doesn’t increased skilled play, increasing damage doesn’t increase skilled play, etc.

I also don’t base my argument on people wasting opportunities. Truth is, even the most skilled of players “waste” opportunities. It is impossible to make “perfect” use of dodges. Having more dodges encourages more wastage, no matter if you are the best or the worst player in the game. A skilled player may “waste” it less but they are still prone to it regardless.

My logic isn’t “it can’t be skilled because it can be wasted on nothing”. Please point out within my post where I said that. I said that having more access to dodging makes it more likely to waste the opportunities when given in abundance.

I just said that more dodging does not equate to more skill, I didn’t say that having more dodging can’t be skilled, a big difference. Even if I used that logic, yours would be on the extreme opposite side of that “more dodging = more skilled play”.

I also pointed out as well that it also makes keeping track of dodging much more worthwhile.

That was too much of a response. I didn’t quite understand it all.

Let me make this simple. More dodges increases the speed of the game. I want the game to be faster paced.

If you don’t, just say so. Let’s not argue what is skilled or unskilled. It just makes people angry and all comes down to opinion.

I’m confused as to how more dodges = faster game. I would say that it is the opposite. The more dodges both players have the more drawn out the fight becomes due to how much damage they are avoiding. The more times you can evade, the less important it becomes to time them for your foe’s most powerful attacks.

Fewer dodges means that fights end more quickly because you can’t avoid as much damage.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’m confused as to how more dodges = faster game. I would say that it is the opposite. The more dodges both players have the more drawn out the fight becomes due to how much damage they are avoiding. The more times you can evade, the less important it becomes to time them for your foe’s most powerful attacks.

Fewer dodges means that fights end more quickly because you can’t avoid as much damage.

Higher APM = Faster paced.

You can have a fast paced fight that lasts an hour. That’s just a long, fast paced fight.

Mbelch.9028:

killahmayne.9518:

Mbelch.9028:

No… how can having less dodges equal more skilled play?

What would you rather see in a duel? Let’s take a D/D elementalist and a Zerk Mace/X Axe/X warrior.

If you give an ele less dodges, he’ll have no chance.. But if you give him more, he has a better shot..

Your reasoning and your logic are flawed “It can’t be skilled because if you have more, you can just waste them on nothing.” How can you base skill on the people who waste their opportunities?

A skilled person will make perfect use of their dodges. And trust me, in large fights there’s always something large coming at you that deserves a dodge.

And what if that warrior also uses sigil of energy? Wouldn’t he have less dodges as well? Thus giving the elementalist a better chance? And if the warrior doesn’t use sigil of energy, it doesn’t have a lot of dodging capability to rely on anyway. It works both ways.

An elementalist who has more dodges doesn’t mean the level of skilled play increases. Learning how to use what you have does, however, the more you have, the more likely you are to waste it and this concept is applicable to almost anything spend real life, i.e the more money you have the more likely you are to waste that money on things that don’t necessarily benefit you (waste).

The only thing that increases is the chance for that elementalist to win. I think you mix the two up. More dodges doesn’t equal more skilled play. And as you know just because you win doesn’t necessarily mean you are skilled by any means or just because you are disadvantaged or you lose doesn’t mean you aren’t skilled. You could have 1000 dodges and that doesn’t increase the level of skilled play one bit. Increasing might stacks doesn’t increased skilled play, increasing damage doesn’t increase skilled play, etc.

I also don’t base my argument on people wasting opportunities. Truth is, even the most skilled of players “waste” opportunities. It is impossible to make “perfect” use of dodges. Having more dodges encourages more wastage, no matter if you are the best or the worst player in the game. A skilled player may “waste” it less but they are still prone to it regardless.

My logic isn’t “it can’t be skilled because it can be wasted on nothing”. Please point out within my post where I said that. I said that having more access to dodging makes it more likely to waste the opportunities when given in abundance.

I just said that more dodging does not equate to more skill, I didn’t say that having more dodging can’t be skilled, a big difference. Even if I used that logic, yours would be on the extreme opposite side of that “more dodging = more skilled play”.

I also pointed out as well that it also makes keeping track of dodging much more worthwhile.

That was too much of a response. I didn’t quite understand it all.

Let me make this simple. More dodges increases the speed of the game. I want the game to be faster paced.

If you don’t, just say so. Let’s not argue what is skilled or unskilled. It just makes people angry and all comes down to opinion.

All I’m saying is more dodges doesn’t equate to more skill and that I never said that having more dodging can’t be skilled.

More dodges doesn’t increase the game speed through APM. You could have a billion APM and the game can still be slow paced, there is really no relationship there. I would also argue that it doesn’t necessarily speed up the pace of the game, or barely.

If you wanted to speed up the pace of the game, you would have to reduce the cast-times and speed up the animations of some of the skills. If you do that, then people would argue (including myself) that where is the opportunity to skillfully counterplay? Where is the opportunity to skillfully dodge a skill, or know what skill to dodge? Or knowing what skill to dodge but it being impossible to react in time. Ironically, by speeding up the pace of the game, you make the game based less off of skill and counterplay and more on random dodging or luck.

The game is already fast paced in the sense that there are a lot of instant gapclosers, instant burst combos and a lot of untelegraphed skills. Not in all cases of course but its there.