Guild Wars 2

Seeing the Sigil changes has got me to thinking, are Ele and Engineer being punished due to their class mechanics? Every other class will have access to FOUR sigil slots. While 2 classes are forced to use only 2.

It kinda seems unfair. I mean this will be a bigger buff to every other class than it will be to Ele and Engineer. So i was wondering would making it so that Ele and Engineer had 4 Sigil slots make them overpowered?

What do you guys think? I personally dont think it would. They would still be limited to the same as everyone else accounting for sigil cool downs. So they wouldnt be able to spam each attunement/kit swap to gain huge bonuses or anything.

:o I like your idea

I’m an elementalist and tried out the swap for dmg build.
15/15/15/15/10 with sigils that dmg when swapping, having 4 of those would be amazing

ele/engi + on-swap sigil = win.

you’re not the victim you’re making out to be. most classes don’t swap weapons as soon as their sigil is done with cooldown. but these two are constantly swapping weapons, making on-swap sigils the best fit for the class.

i’d say it’s actually a major buff for them, actually. think about it: now that you can take your on-swap and on-crit sigils at the same time, eles and engis aren’t held back by their class mechanic.

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

:o I like your idea

I’m an elementalist and tried out the swap for dmg build.
15/15/15/15/10 with sigils that dmg when swapping, having 4 of those would be amazing

triggering 4 sigils at once, on a 9s cooldown. now THAT would be broken.

BrunoBRS.5178:

ele/engi + on-swap sigil = win.

you’re not the victim you’re making out to be. most classes don’t swap weapons as soon as their sigil is done with cooldown. but these two are constantly swapping weapons, making on-swap sigils the best fit for the class.

i’d say it’s actually a major buff for them, actually. think about it: now that you can take your on-swap and on-crit sigils at the same time, eles and engis aren’t held back by their class mechanic.

Have you heard about fast hands?

Seeing as they would be limited just like every other class with the cool downs and such each sigil has i don’t think this would be a major problem. They could add a like a Sigil slot next to the weapons on the character screen.

Or somehow make it that when either an Engineer or ele equips a weapon it is given 2 sigil slots (4 in the case of 2 handed weapons)

@Bruno – we arent swapping because of the sigils – we (ele at least) swap due to the insane cool down each attunement has) so we are forced into attunement dancing. That would not make us super powered at all. It would still have the EXACT same limits as every other class has.

So in the end it would not make us super powered. As stated we could not go from say Fire into Water, into Air and then into Earth and keep gaining benefits from sigils as they all have cool downs.

Warrior on the other hand, with the 5 second weapon swap would see a great benefit from the changed sigils.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

:o I like your idea

I’m an elementalist and tried out the swap for dmg build.
15/15/15/15/10 with sigils that dmg when swapping, having 4 of those would be amazing

triggering 4 sigils at once, on a 9s cooldown. now THAT would be broken.

Would it be much different to Warrior using Fast hands? insteand of all 4 at the same time, it would be 2 every 5 seconds. Think about it.

1 second: Get into combat, weapon swap (Hammer for example) : 2 sigils proc
6 seconds: Fast hands make the weapon swap useable.
6 seconds: swap from hammer to longbow: 2 sigils proc
11 seconds: Cool down on Hammer sigils is up.

and repeat….

BrunoBRS.5178:

ele/engi + on-swap sigil = win.

you’re not the victim you’re making out to be. most classes don’t swap weapons as soon as their sigil is done with cooldown. but these two are constantly swapping weapons, making on-swap sigils the best fit for the class.

i’d say it’s actually a major buff for them, actually. think about it: now that you can take your on-swap and on-crit sigils at the same time, eles and engis aren’t held back by their class mechanic.

They still won’t be as effective as a stacking sigil + other 3 different sigils. Also, sigil cooldowns.

Also, engineers’ kit were heavily nerfed when they made them work with sigils under the excuse of a rebalancing. Why aren’t 2-handed weapon nerfed too, since they weren’t balanced with 2 sigils as well?

BrunoBRS.5178:

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

:o I like your idea

I’m an elementalist and tried out the swap for dmg build.
15/15/15/15/10 with sigils that dmg when swapping, having 4 of those would be amazing

triggering 4 sigils at once, on a 9s cooldown. now THAT would be broken.

in fact swappin to fire for example would trigger fire blast from going to fire, then the 4 sigils then a couple of the AoE insta cast fire spells and I reckon you could do a couple thousand damage in a few seconds. Similar to the thief I guess only we have lower health and lower armor rating and no survivability mechanic like the stealth, clones and deathshroud abilities.

I understand the concern of this but I think it’s only fair to realize that Ele’s and Engineer’s get the advantage of “On Swap” sigils. An example would be the “Sigil of Energy” where an Ele would get 5 dodges automatically while a Guardian would get 3. So I think it’s ok to assume that since Ele’s/Engi’s have the advantage of “On Swap” sigil that other classes can have the advantage of “On Kill” sigils. I think the only thing up for debate would be the question that, are “On Swap” sigils equally as powerful as “On Kill” sigils. If not, then one class would definitely have the advantage with sigils over the other.

Cush.4063:

I understand the concern of this but I think it’s only fair to realize that Ele’s and Engineer’s get the advantage of “On Swap” sigils. An example would be the “Sigil of Energy” where an Ele would get 5 dodges automatically while a Guardian would get 3. So I think it’s ok to assume that since Ele’s/Engi’s have the advantage of “On Swap” sigil that other classes can have the advantage of “On Kill” sigils. I think the only thing up for debate would be the question that, are “On Swap” sigils equally as powerful as “On Kill” sigils. If not, then one class would definitely have the advantage with sigils over the other.

You forgetting that Sigil of Energy has a 9second cool down? So how would this benefit Ele and Engineer more than any other class? Seeing as it has the same cool down as every class is given with it.

On swap sigils have a cool down. Thus the benefit is not applicable when you get into it. EVERY class has the same cool down when it comes to a sigil. No one class has a benefit over another class with that in mind.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Cush.4063:

I understand the concern of this but I think it’s only fair to realize that Ele’s and Engineer’s get the advantage of “On Swap” sigils. An example would be the “Sigil of Energy” where an Ele would get 5 dodges automatically while a Guardian would get 3. So I think it’s ok to assume that since Ele’s/Engi’s have the advantage of “On Swap” sigil that other classes can have the advantage of “On Kill” sigils. I think the only thing up for debate would be the question that, are “On Swap” sigils equally as powerful as “On Kill” sigils. If not, then one class would definitely have the advantage with sigils over the other.

You forgetting that Sigil of Energy has a 9second cool down? So how would this benefit Ele and Engineer more than any other class? Seeing as it has the same cool down as every class is given with it.

On swap sigils have a cool down. Thus the benefit is not applicable when you get into it. EVERY class has the same cool down when it comes to a sigil. No one class has a benefit over another class with that in mind.

Wow, does it really? I never have seemed to notice as I feel I am always dodging constantly with it. If so, I stand corrected and I will edit my post. The thought of CD’s didn’t even cross my mind. Thanks for enlightening me. I hate being corrected. I will definitely agree with this post now.

I know this has been pointed out before, but I’d like to point it out again.

I think Elementalists are getting the short end of the stick due to the new Sigil changes, in regards to both on-kill sigils and on-swap sigils. To illustrate:

On-kill sigils:

Example A: Warrior with 2 weapon sets A and B, each set with 2 sigils. Set A has Sigil of Bloodlust and a non-on-kill sigil, Set B has two different non-on-kill sigils.

Result: This Warrior gets to build up +250 Power and still take advantage of 3 other non-on-kill sigils, 1 on set A and 2 on set B.

Example B: Elementalist with 1 weapon set A, with Sigil of Bloodlust and one other non-on-kill sigil.

Result: This Elementalist can build up +250 Power but can only take advantage of one other non-on-kill sigil.

On-swap sigils:

Example A: Warrior with 2 weapon sets A and B, with Fast Hands (15 Discipline) and 4 different on-swap sigils (sigils 1 and 2 on set A, 3 and 4 on set B.)

-0 seconds: swap to B—> 3 and 4 proc and go on 9-second CD. Weapon swap goes on 5-second CD.
-5 seconds: swap to A—> 1 and 2 proc and go on 9-second CD. Weapon swap goes on 5- second CD.
-10 seconds: swap to B—> 3 and 4 proc and go on 9-second CD. Weapon swap goes on 5-second CD.
-15 seconds: swap to A—> 1 and 2 proc and go on 9-second CD. Weapon swap goes on 5-second CD.

Works out to 2 sigil procs every 5 seconds, with the possibility of having 4 unique on-swap sigils. Requires 15 Trait points in Discipline.

Example B: Necromancer with 2 weapon sets A and B, with 4 different on-swap sigils (sigils 1 and 2 on set A, and sigils 3 and 4 on set B.) Weapon swap cooldown is 10 seconds (same for Guardians, Rangers, Mesmers, Thieves and Warriors without Fast Hands.) Initially in weapon set A.

-0 seconds: swap to B—> 3 and 4 proc and go on 9-sec CD. Weapon swap goes on 10-sec CD.
-10 seconds: swap to A—> 1 and 2 proc and go on 9-sec CD. Weapon swap goes on 10-sec CD.
-20 seconds: swap to B—> 3 and 4 proc and go on 9-sec CD. Weapon swap goes on 10-sec CD.

Works out to 2 sigil procs every 10 seconds, with the possibility of having 4 unique on-swap sigils. Requires no Trait investment.

Example C: Elementalist with 1 weapon set A, with 2 different on-swap sigils 1 and 2. 30 Arcana (swapping to another Attunement is~1 second, swapping to previous Attunement is ~9 seconds) Initially in Fire Attunement.

-0 seconds: swap to Water—> 1 and 2 proc and go on 9-second CD.
-1.5 seconds: swap to Air—> 1 and 2 still on CD, no sigil procs.
-5 seconds: swap to Earth—> 1 and 2 still on CD, no sigil procs.
-9 seconds: Fire attunement recharged, swap to Fire—> 1 and 2 proc and go on 9-second CD.

Works out to 2 sigil procs every 9 seconds, with only 2 unique on-swap sigils possible. Requires 30 Trait points in Arcana.

TL;DR:
-So an Elementalist can get more frequent on-swap sigil procs compared to other professions except for Fast Hands Warriors, BUT has to invest deep in Arcana AND can only have 2 unique Sigils.
-All other professions except Fast Hand Warriors get less frequent on-swap sigil procs (by only 1 second less, I might add) BUT can proc 4 unique Sigils, with zero Trait investment
-Fast Hands Warriors can get 4 unique on-swap sigil procs every 5 seconds for 15 Trait points in Discipline.
—-

The question is, is the ability to swap Attunements enough of a trade-off for losing access to a) more unique sigil procs in addition to on-kill boosts and b) more frequent sigil procs?

For a), I really don’t think so. If that were the case, Bloodlust stacking Eles currently would be considered OP…which is certainly not the case.
For b), I don’t think so. Elementalist skills have long individual cooldowns; I’d rather have another Sigil of Air proc than wait for Magnetic Aura to come off cooldown.

What I think should happen is Elementalists should receive a unique “on-kill-sigil-only” slot, and should be able to proc on-swap sigils every 5 seconds instead of every 9 seconds. This would synergize better with our Attunement swaps, and the fact that we can only have 2 sigils at once would balance it out.

I haven’t discussed Engineers since I haven’t really played one, but I’d imagine their case would be similar to the Elementalist.

better 1 sigil for 1 attunement.

really hope an anet person see this and at least comments on it, because either we loss an active sigil and get stat bonus, or we take stat bonus and loss that sigil slot, where as other classes don’t have to worry about it.

What they should do. Make it so every class has to have the stacking sigil on BOTH weapon sets for them to keep the buff. This would remove the bonus they get from the fact they aren’t limited to 2 Sigils like Ele and Engi. Sure they would still get 2 sigil slots versus our 1 slot but at least it would make it that little bit more fair for those of us that play ele and Engi.

Don’t hold your breath waiting for a response. These questions were being asked months ago when the sigil changes were first announced.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Cush.4063:

I understand the concern of this but I think it’s only fair to realize that Ele’s and Engineer’s get the advantage of “On Swap” sigils. An example would be the “Sigil of Energy” where an Ele would get 5 dodges automatically while a Guardian would get 3. So I think it’s ok to assume that since Ele’s/Engi’s have the advantage of “On Swap” sigil that other classes can have the advantage of “On Kill” sigils. I think the only thing up for debate would be the question that, are “On Swap” sigils equally as powerful as “On Kill” sigils. If not, then one class would definitely have the advantage with sigils over the other.

You forgetting that Sigil of Energy has a 9second cool down? So how would this benefit Ele and Engineer more than any other class? Seeing as it has the same cool down as every class is given with it.

On swap sigils have a cool down. Thus the benefit is not applicable when you get into it. EVERY class has the same cool down when it comes to a sigil. No one class has a benefit over another class with that in mind.

this.
on swap cooldown levels the playing field.
as an ele…fresh air gives me fast “on swap”…..multiple kits do the same thing on my engi………….cooldown doesn’t change.

the problem is the on kill sigils

The argument I’ve heard in favor of this upcoming change is that Elementalists are compensated for having only 2 sigils by having access to more skills and traits that proc on Attunement swap (Sunspot, Electric Discharge, Earthen Blast, Healing Ripple.)

I don’t think it’s a fair comparison:

1. You have to trait for effects to proc from Attunement swaps (at least 15 points.) Then, in order to proc those traits often, you’re forced to trait deep into Arcana to reduce Attunement swap cooldowns.

2. The procs from on-crit sigils hit harder than Sunspot or electric Discharge. Sure, the traits are guaranteed procs, but Sunspot, Earthen Blast and Healing Ripple are PBAoE while on-crit sigils can proc on ranged hits. Not to mention they’re buffing on-crit sigils to proc more reliably, so I think the sigils come out stronger, especially again since they don’t require traits to work.

3. Attunement swap is affected by Chill, while weapon swap (and therefore sigil procs for non-Eles) is not. So our “sigil” procs (the Attunement swap traits) can be slowed down, but not other classes’.

4. Our weapon skills on an individual basis are weaker than those of other classes, and tend to be on longer cooldowns, which balance out the fact that we have more of them at any one time.

We really need a response from the devs regarding these issues.

At the very least, Chill should not affect Elementalists so much more drastically than it does other classes.

Relshdan.6854:

this.
on swap cooldown levels the playing field.
as an ele…fresh air gives me fast “on swap”…..multiple kits do the same thing on my engi………….cooldown doesn’t change.

the problem is the on kill sigils

If it is true and they are going to make it so you have to keep the kill stacking Sigil on, this is just another nerf to both Ele and Engineer and the ONLY way to counter that would be to make it so that all other classes have to keep the sigil on BOTH weapon sets. Sure they would still have 2 Sigils versus our 1 sigil but i would take that over them having 3 sigils Vs our 1 sigil.

Remember that on swap sigils have 9-10second cool downs. So you can swap to kits as fast as you want, you are only going to get the proc once every 9-10seconds. It’s not just the kill sigils that are the problem, having a much more limited number of sigil slots makes having new builds or something simply isn’t possible or is made a LOT harder.

Currently my condition build relies on being able to swap out my Corruption sigil once i get 25stacks so that i have 2 condition applying Sigils to counter the low access to conditions we have. Make it so that i can only have ONE of them and it makes my build all the more weaker.

@Glenstorm.

I agree, All they have to do is equip the sigil and boom. We have to spend 15 trait points JUST to get the on swap effect and then spend even more trait points to make it so that we can actually use them every 10 seconds like everyone else.

The terrible excuse about having more skills is just silly. at anyone time we have 5 skills, just like everyone else. We are infact PUNISHED by our class mechanic due to the fact the not only are all the skills subpar they all also have insane cool downs.

Cleansing Wave – 1,300 healing and condition removed on a FORTY second cool down
Churning Earth – THIRTY second cool down, 3 second cast time = never used
Earthquake – FORTY FIVE second cool down more than FOUR times longer than Warrior version that can be traited to be even lower…

Our skills simply are on too long a cool down and not strong enough. As i have said if they are making it so that on kill sigils have to stay equipped – they should make it so that other classes need them on both weapon sets to reduce the buff they are getting from these changes when compared to Ele and Engineer

Glenstorm.4059:

The argument I’ve heard in favor of this upcoming change is that Elementalists are compensated for having only 2 sigils by having access to more skills and traits that proc on Attunement swap (Sunspot, Electric Discharge, Earthen Blast, Healing Ripple.)

The argument is actually that Eles and Engis can trigger on-swap Sigils much more consistently. And they won’t trigger them less in total either, they just have less variety.

To explain it differently:
If the two-weapons user had the same sigils on both sets of weapons, the sigil-mechanic would really favour Ele/Engi. The only balancing act is that they are limited in versatility, because those two classes are forced to kinda have that same set on “both” weapons.

Carighan.6758:

The argument is actually that Eles and Engis can trigger on-swap Sigils much more consistently. And they won’t trigger them less in total either, they just have less variety.

To explain it differently:
If the two-weapons user had the same sigils on both sets of weapons, the sigil-mechanic would really favour Ele/Engi. The only balancing act is that they are limited in versatility, because those two classes are forced to kinda have that same set on “both” weapons.

On swap Sigils have the same cool down for all classes. Ele and Engineer would not be able to proc them more than any other class. They have a 9-10second cool down no matter the class you are using.

So this means nothing. Lets not forget that ALL other classes will have FOUR sigil options. One likely taken up with a stacking Sigil – What about ele and engineer they are stuck with 2, well 1 if you include the stacking sigil that will apparently have its stacks removed if you remove the weapon.

Some are also thinking of ways to get around that – using the stacking Sigil of the Under water weapon. If this works it will be 4 Sigils Vs 2. Neither Ele or Engineer have such a bonus that this would not affect them.

So limited in what Sigils they can use, opens up options for other classes, makes it even more limited on Ele and Engineer. It makes no sense.

Carighan.6758:

Glenstorm.4059:

The argument I’ve heard in favor of this upcoming change is that Elementalists are compensated for having only 2 sigils by having access to more skills and traits that proc on Attunement swap (Sunspot, Electric Discharge, Earthen Blast, Healing Ripple.)

The argument is actually that Eles and Engis can trigger on-swap Sigils much more consistently. And they won’t trigger them less in total either, they just have less variety.

To explain it differently:
If the two-weapons user had the same sigils on both sets of weapons, the sigil-mechanic would really favour Ele/Engi. The only balancing act is that they are limited in versatility, because those two classes are forced to kinda have that same set on “both” weapons.

With that being said, there is nothing stopping other classes from using 4 dis-similar Sigils across their weapon sets. Indeed, with the lifting of GCD across sigil types and permanent bonus sigils being buffed like Sigil of Smouldering, would only encourage diversification instead of consolidation of sigils across professions.

In that scenario, Engineer and Elementalist do come out behind as they have no “off-set” to gain the benefit of those 2 extra sigils.

Right now the only solution I can think of is introducing a “ghost” off-set weapon that can accept the 2 extra sigils that provide their bonuses but that which cannot be swapped to. This will give Elementalist and Engineer the benefit of 4 sigils as it is across every other class, merely simultaneously instead of on separate weapon sets.

It is however, an inelegant solution. Upon unequipping, where would the “ghost” sigils go? Are they destroyed or returned to the player’s inventory? These are unanswered questions that may simple lead to Arenanet keeping the status quo for simplicity’s sake – and to the Engineer and Elementalist’s (relative) detriment.

My point was that on most classes, swapping blindly because of the on-swap sigils is rarely a productive thing. You want to swap when you need the other skills, not because you need the sigils to proc.

On my Engi – I can’t judge Ele too much, still levelling that one – I can easily double-tap to proc a sigil. It takes very little time really, considering that I get my original abilities back 1 GCD later.

That’s what I meant by “consistently”.

Carighan.6758:

My point was that on most classes, swapping blindly because of the on-swap sigils is rarely a productive thing. You want to swap when you need the other skills, not because you need the sigils to proc.

On my Engi – I can’t judge Ele too much, still levelling that one – I can easily double-tap to proc a sigil. It takes very little time really, considering that I get my original abilities back 1 GCD later.

That’s what I meant by “consistently”.

That’s very true in the Engineer’s case and as an above poster mentioned with Elementalist, Fresh Air will also allow procs. With that being said, the point remains that due to the new mechanics – the following scenarios will present themselves:

• 4 On-swap sigils: Fast Hands Warrior gains the most benefit. Other classes limited to 2×2 on-swap procs per 10 seconds. Engineer and Elementalist: 2 on-swap procs per 10 seconds only.
• X On-swap/on-hit sigils, Y permanent bonus/stacking sigils: Equal across classes except Engineer and Elementalist who simply have fewer sigil slots. Merely equalises 2handers with 1hander + offhanders. Classes that slot the same sigils across both weapon sets are equal to Engineer and Elementalist.
• W stacking, X On-swap sigils, Y permanent bonus sigils, Z on-hit sigils: Again, due to less overall sigil slots Engineer and Elementalist simply cannot take advantage of all 3 mechanics – merely 2 out of 3. Other classes normalised.

The challenge will be in considering whether being able to proc a cooldown-limited sigil that is on-hit or on-swap on demand consistently is inferior, equal to or better than simply being able to proc more cooldown-limited sigils. Personally, I feel that when considering the relative power increase, Engineer and Elementalist will be inferior or equal with other professions; with Warrior potentially coming out on top of everybody else running 4 on-swaps.

Having said that, being able to run, say, Battle/Energy on Engineer Rifle or Elementalist Staff will be a significant buff to both. The issue remains that other classes have the potential to get more and all of this conversation is moot until more details concerning the Sigil changes become clear. The only possible scenario I can foresee in which Engineer and Elementalist come out in relative equity with other classes is in the event that on-swap sigils are nerfed into the ground and on-hit sigils have their damage outputs decreased to the point of simply adding another auto-attack. In that scenario, permanent bonus sigils would reign supreme and in this, all professions are on relatively equal footing.

IMO it’ll be fine as long as they nerf all 2h weapon dmg by 5% (the thought being that if you have an extra slot you could just toss in a sigil of force and up the damage 5% on top of your current sigil). Ele and Eng will still be getting an extra slot on their 2h weapons, so they deserve that too.

lets make just 1 sigil and off hand sigil doesnt count. there we fixed balance.

I personally don’t find engineers and elementalists having less sigils to choose from at any one time to be that big of a problem; at least, not one that can easily be addressed without potentially huge balance concerns resulting, and concerns when it comes to practically giving them an additional sigil or two. How do you code it? Where does it go? Etc etc.

I do think there is one very big problem in the stacking stat sigils. I think everyone’s already covered why that is, though, and I don’t know how to solve it. I would say to give a trait that is similar to Master’s Bond which practically covers the role of a stacking sigil, but that would require you to actually spend traits to get it. Maybe add an elementalist/engineer exclusive sigil slot that will only accept class-specific sigils, but that still assumes that other classes would take the stacking stat sigil as well.

So yeah, lazy thought for elementalists; what if there was a trait that went something like this

Elemental Momentum: When you kill an enemy, gain 1 charge of Elemental Momentum. If you kill a player, gain 5 charges. Each charge grants 10 of a stat depending on attunement:
Fire: Power
Air: Precision
Earth: Toughness
Water: Healing Power

I think the solution Nike posed in his thread was a great idea. Allow Elementalists to be able to equip a second weapon but only switch to it while out of combat. This goes for engineers as well I suppose. This would help Ele’s and Engineer’s in 2 ways. First being the on kill sigils. It would make them viable just like any other class. And second, they/we wouldn’t have to open up inventory to change our weapons every time we’re out of combat and wish to use a different weapon for a different situation.

Engineers and elementalists are fine. Other classes get more sigils. We get more skills.
Sounds about right.

It isn’t like we have fewer ACTIVE sigils (you only get the benefit of the equipped ones). We have less ability to change out the sigils. Seems about right given we can change our action skills with kits and attunements fast.

Bombsaway.7198:

Engineers and elementalists are fine. Other classes get more sigils. We get more skills.
Sounds about right.

It isn’t like we have fewer ACTIVE sigils (you only get the benefit of the equipped ones). We have less ability to change out the sigils. Seems about right given we can change our action skills with kits and attunements fast.

For Ele. Having more skills doesnt count when they are all average in ability and insane in cool down. We need more skills DUE to the insane cool downs SO many of the weapon skills we have.

Sure we get on swap effects without them – However. Until the 15point traits are actually as strong as the Sigil version then it doesn’t really count now does it.

For Example: Earth Blast – Should have Bleeding added to it. 5 stacks. Make it so that it could not proc both this and Geomancy on entering Earth. Maybe have Sunspot, Electric Discharge and Healing Ripple buffed a bit as well and then maybe, just maybe i could live with just 2 Sigil slots.

Cush.4063:

I think the solution Nike posed in his thread was a great idea. Allow Elementalists to be able to equip a second weapon but only switch to it while out of combat. This goes for engineers as well I suppose. This would help Ele’s and Engineer’s in 2 ways. First being the on kill sigils. It would make them viable just like any other class. And second, they/we wouldn’t have to open up inventory to change our weapons every time we’re out of combat and wish to use a different weapon for a different situation.

That would be nice but I am not going to hold by breath, ele’s have been asking for out of combat switching for a long time.

Bombsaway.7198:

Engineers and elementalists are fine. Other classes get more sigils. We get more skills.
Sounds about right.

It isn’t like we have fewer ACTIVE sigils (you only get the benefit of the equipped ones). We have less ability to change out the sigils. Seems about right given we can change our action skills with kits and attunements fast.

10 skills are = to 20 skills with double the cd.
Yes we have more skills, but as they have twice to three times the cd they more or less = the 10 that other classes have, that point is moot.

With so many people in wvw running on kill stacking sigils, we can assume that after the patch every class with still have it on one of their weapons. Which then mean that ele’s and engi’s either loss a sigil slot after getting 25 stacks, making this 2 sigils on 2h patch pointless for us. Or we go with two non-stacking sigils, (and still assuming most other classes will still have one) then all other classes now have +250 X stat more then us.

Either way you look at it we end up with the short end of the stick, I still can’t see why people are arguing that it doesn’t need to be changed for ele’s and engi’s.

Stick your stacking sigils on those underwater weapons people. Make em worth something!

This was also being discussed in the engg forum: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Anet-fails-to-realize-sigil-change-hurt-engis/first#post3805862

The TL;DR for my post: The only real problem is stacking sigils since it allows professions with weapon swapping to benefit from three sigil bonuses on one weapon set, where as engineers and elementalists will only ever be able to benefit from two sets. Thus they cannot be as efficient or effective with sigils, and it does not yet appear that anything has been put into place as any sort of compensation for this

My actual post for those that want to read (split in two due to length):

The main problem I see with the way sigils will work now are stacking sigils.

For comparison, one can consider that the engineer and elementalist have two effective weapon sets, it’s just that each set is the same weapon and each weapon has the same sigils. For instance, if an engineer equips a rifle with a sigil of bloodlust and a sigil of fire, it’s like having two rifles that each have a sigil of bloodlust and a sigil of fire.

Now consider what a typical sigil configuration will be for someone that uses a stacking sigil. Out of the four sigils, one will generally be a stacking sigil, and the other three will be other things. For instance, a thief could have a set of dual daggers, one with a sigil of force and the other with a sigil of accuracy, and a shortbow that has a sigil of bloodlust and sigil of accuracy.

Thus if we compare the effective weapon sets from the examples above, we get the following:

Engg Set 1: Bloodlust + Fire
Engg Set 2: Bloodlust + Fire

Thief Set 1: Force + Accuracy
Thief Set 2: Bloodlust + Accuracy

This is significant because it shows why the engineer is disadvantaged. In general, a thief (or other profession with weapon swap) would not slot a bloodlust (or other stacking sigil) in each weapon set because it’s inefficient. They will use one set to build the stacks, after which point the stacking sigil is effectively useless. If the thief changed their daggers to have a sigil of bloodlust instead of the sigil of force, they would be sacrificing the effectiveness of that weapon set once they’ve built all their stacks.

This results from the stacking sigils providing a global balance as opposed to a weapon set specific bonus. For instance, let’s consider the thief’s weapon sets again. Although the first set uses a force and accuracy sigil, it benefits from the bloodlust sigil in the other weapon set.

So one can instead consider the thief’s actual sigils as follows:

Thief Set 1: Bloodlust + Force + Accuracy
Thief Set 2: Bloodlust + Accuracy

Since the bloodlust stacks benefit the daggers even though the sigil isn’t equipped in the daggers, it effectively allows the thief to gain three separate sigil benefits on their daggers with only two equipped.

In comparison to elementalists and engineers, they will only ever be able to gain the benefits of two sigils at anytime since the stacking sigil is essentially equipped to both their “effective weapon sets”.

This wasn’t an issue with the old system because everyone could build stacks and then swap out, meaning it was possible for engineers and elementalists to benefit from three sigil bonuses on their “effective weapon sets” (excluding the fact that two handed weapons can’t have two sigils in the old system). However, it is a disadvantage that is inherent in the engineer and elementalist now since they do not have a true weapon swap and cannot unequip the stacking weapon.

There are many aspects to consider for balance, but I don’t see why it’s reasonable to have engineers and elementalists only able to benefit from a maximum of two sigil effects, where all the other professions can benefit from three on one of their two weapon sets if they decide to use stacking sigils (those that don’t use stacking sigils will only be able to gain two sigil benefits).

Solution ideas I had were as follows:

Solution 1. Make it so that the bonus from the sigil stacks only apply if the weapon set currently wielded possesses that sigil. In the example above, this means that the thief can build bloodlust stacks with their shortbow and gain the power benefit while using the shortbow, but swapping to the daggers would prevent the bonus given from the stacks from applying. The stacks would still be there, but they would not do anything. If the thief swaps back to the shortbow, the stack bonus applies again. Alternatively, the thief could change one of the sigils in the daggers to a bloodlust sigil (i.e. replace the force sigil), in which case the stacks would apply to both weapon sets.

This is fairer because it doesn’t allow the thief to benefit from three sigil bonuses on their daggers when the engineer can only ever benefit from two sigil bonuses at any time. The logic behind this is the same reason that force sigils only apply their +5% damage to the set they are equipped in. No other kind of sigil provides a global benefit, so it would make sense for stacking sigils not to either.

Solution 2. Allow each character to have a separate global sigil slot that is different from the weapon slots. This special slot is reserved for stacking sigils only, and stacking sigils cannot be placed in the weapons like they can now. This would make it so that stacking sigils can work in tandem with other weapon sigils without having to compete with them, and allow all professions to benefit from three sigil benefits on their effective weapon sets.

Of course, this solution would have to take this into balance considerations, which it is currently not.

I feel the other sigils will be fine, the only real inherent disparity occurs with the stacking sigils.

Penguin.5197:

Stick your stacking sigils on those underwater weapons people. Make em worth something!

While this will probably work out, it is a bit silly. Plus it’s not always convenient to build stacks in this way in WvW since very little combat takes place underwater unless you’re just sitting there (or swimming there) killing mobs instead of actually having fun and playing the game.

All other classes except Elementalist and Engineer can use 3 different on-swap sigils and 1 stacking sigil. Elementalist and Engineer can only use 1 stacking sigil and 1 on-swap sigil.

I can’t see the reasoning why people say it’s fair. The number of procs becomes irrelevant when other classes can simply use more.

Kyon.9735:

All other classes except Elementalist and Engineer can use 3 different on-swap sigils and 1 stacking sigil. Elementalist and Engineer can only use 1 stacking sigil and 1 on-swap sigil.

I can’t see the reasoning why people say it’s fair. The number of procs becomes irrelevant when other classes can simply use more.

The way I look at it is that the engineer and elementalist essentially have two sets of the same sigils.

With other professions, those swap sigils only count when you swap to the weapon set that has those sigils. So if one set has a sigil of energy and the other has a sigil of battle, you only get one or the other.

With engineers and elementalists, the swap sigil will always proc on any swap (as long as it’s not on cooldown), which effectively means they have two of the same sigil on two different effective weapon sets.

It is still disadvantageous because the engineer or elementalist has less customization options when it comes to sigil choices, but they can gain the same net overall benefit since it’s like they have four sigils that are simply two sets of the same two sigils. So I don’t feel it’s as profound a handicap as people think it might be.

But stacking sigils are the exception in that professions with weapon swap can gain objectively superior benefits by using these sigils since they only have to stack them on one weapon set and not the other.

Yamsandjams is right. The best balance option is that the player gains the stacking sigil’s benefit ONLY while s/he has it equipped in the hands. Hybrid builds could get benefit from to different kind of stacking sigils. E.g: condi weapon set with Corruption and power set with Bloodlust.

Using underwater weapons for stacking is a weird solution anyway.

Your Solution #2 would be an even bigger buff to all other classes. What they should do, if they are not going to help ele and engineer in this regard – make it so that EVERY class has to have the stacking sigil equipped in BOTH weapon sets (like ele and engi will have to do) for them to get the stacks. This would actually make it totally even for EVERY class.

Penguin.5197:

Stick your stacking sigils on those underwater weapons people. Make em worth something!

Dollars to donuts, that’ll be patched.

I think the easiest most direct way to balance it out is to balance on swap sigils at 5 seconds cool down. That way even if you switch like crazy you’ll to all 4 sigils you’ll still be proccing the same number of times an ele or engie would. Think about it.

An example of a 5 second sigil would be like…sigil of battle would give 1-2 stacks of might for 10 seconds. Suppose an ele and a warrior are dueling. A warrior would at 5 seconds swap to weps and an ele would change attunement and they both gain might. At the next ten seconds the warrior would swap again for their other sigil effect on the other weapon, while an ele at the same time would just get might stacks again and so on. And if a warrior decided to put a sigil of battle on each weapon, it would still equal what an ele or engie could do.

Still no comment. Please Anet tell us why you decided that way. This is for PvE,sPvP and WvW important

actually ppl don’t understand that having 4 attunements are same profitable as 2 on other classes. ele’s are punished with insane high cooldowns

solutions how to balance sigils:
1. any 5 point minor traits in any trait line will reduce icd for sigils
2. swap weapons out of combat
3. 2 special slots for sigils, so sigils will work like weapon. ability to swap weapon sigils like other classes have to swap weapon. you still have the same weapon set, but another sigils
4. buffed sigil effect for ele/engi so like on-hit sigil will double proc at same time
5. special buff. like sigil of energy, it will not proc anymore but add +50% stamina recharge rate.
6. add active effect for att./kits. fx when you swap to fire you got 1 might, just like elemental att. trait works.

I spend 5 min for this post, so don’t blame/judge me hard. its just an example that if devs want to solve it, they ll find solution. but we still dont get any response for this problem and I think they are just dont care/dk how to fix/dont think that is a real problem.

Maybe they could buff Elemental Attunement?
I mean most ele take it as it is. They could make it so that it does something “special” for just the ele. That could be double the effect/duration of the boons given. Maybe add other boons.

Something like:

Fire – Might(3stacks) – 10 second Duration + 4 second Retal.
Water – Regen – 10 second duration + 5 second Vigor
Air – Swiftness – 10 second duration + 5second Aegis
Earth -Protection 6 second duration + 3 second Stability

Or They could buff up the 15point traits

Penguin.5197:

…
I think the easiest most direct way to balance it out is to balance on swap sigils at 5 seconds cool down.
…

And what about all classes that do not have access to a 5 seconds switch?

Easy Fix: Eles and Engis at least(if not all classes, saw that above, would be cool with it) should have 5 sec CD on On-Swap Sigils. I think this should be specifically for the 1-weapon-set classes only, but like i said, 5 second CD on on-swaps only. The rest(on crit, on kill, etc) it means less versatility(made up for by Ele/Engi large Kits), but still as much potential power, for any 2 sigil combo.
10 sec CD on On-Swap for Eng/Eles way too long though, for sure.

This way also leaves everyone else’s stuff alone, while def. NOT making the Ele’s/Engi’s OP.

Ele could be Master of Changing Gears in Battle.

Alternatively, you could allow eles and engies to have second weapon set but put it on a long cooldown (30-45-60 sec). This way you allow them to have access to multiple sigils without abusing their ability to trigger procs at will( so to speak). Idea might need some tweaking but it is a solution, kind of.

Just another nerf to ele that is already in really bad shape with no help coming in the next patch. Oh sucks for engis to but they are in a pretty good spot balance wise.

I’d like to add to this, engis and eles really are getting shafted with the stacking signet changes.

We’re the only two classes who won’t get to stack without giving up a slot.