Guild Wars 2

Introduction:
This is probably more fit to be on a wvw discussion, but I thought it may relate more to profession balance issues therefore I decided to post this thread here. My thread seeks to bring attention to the recent meta shift of for the thief profession (pistol dagger condition shadow art thieves. As this is kind of long I decided to add subtitles as well as a tl:dr section at the end of this post. As a final note, I’m trying to sound like someone whose not just qqing.

Point of thread:
I seek to provide an illustration of my recent experiences when attempted to solo roam and am looking forward to any comments that experience agreement or disagreement.

Getting to the point now:
The Mesmer and Thieves are two professions that one is most likely to see the most off (practically every engagement) when solo roaming. Once you decide to roam solo in world vs world, it is imperative that you know how to handle Mesmers and theives more so than any other class. I did so by playing and leveling both professions to 80, roaming with it and experimenting with builds. It is also imperative that you understand how to read the map in order to search for contested areas, and how to avoid being ambushed by a zerg.

Solo Roaming Encounter:
As of recently, when I attempt to solo roam I constantly encounter Pistol Dagger condition thieves running 6 in shadowarts 6 in trickery I believe 2 in the first trait line for Mug trait, and condition bunker based gear. I believe the second weapon set can work with short, sword dagger or dagger pistol. On average about 90percent of my 1 vs 1 engagements are against this spec. For instance this morning was probably about 30mins of solo roaming, I met a total of 9 opponents in 1 vs 1, all of which were thieves running this same setup before I finally became frustrated and decided to do pve instead (yeah thats how you know I rage quit).

Reflection:
From my understanding, this build allows a fair bit of regen, stealth, condition application, mobility=amazing survivability. Typical rotation I believe involves: basilisks venom, auto attack to apply bleeds, pistol number3 if your opponents gets close. My counter is currently maintain a range to avoid allowing the thief to use cloak and dagger as well as pistol 3. Of course chaining ccs such as my flesh golem charge allows and fear allows me a window to apply a burst.

My Woes:
Unfortunately this method fails because my burst does not apply enough damage to actually down the theif, simultaneously the theif is able to stealth and come back with close to full health. I understand that this can be result of having the traits in shadowarts or use the heal in shadows.

Possible solution?
A possible solution for me may be increasing my burst capabilities, switching to a condition build overwhelm these type of thieves with conditions or playing minion mancer necromancer in order to to apply even more pressure and aggression perhaps forcing the thief to at least retreat or waste initiative cloak and daggering off minions.

2 vs 1 or outnumber encounters:
When I run into a 2 vs 1 90percent of the time the 2 vs 1 involves two pistol dagger condition thieves that coordinate body shot (pistol 2) to stack the immobilize. As a power necromancer roamer this usually requires that I cleanse the conditions with my heal, and run shrouded removal to cleanse additional conditions such as immobilize. However, due to the fact that pistol main hand theives do not have have an internal cooldown on immobilize it allows them to continue to stack immobolize as well as more conditions such as torment and bleed, because I am now left on cooldowns after cleansing the original conditions. 2 vs 1 engagements I use to find enjoyable, however I am now left practically helpless.

My concerns for developers based on experience (TL:DR section as well)

Therefore I have two primary concerns:
1. I would like to see an internal cooldown on body shot, to allow for leeway to allow me to actually move and potentially survive long enough to get my cooldowns or lifeforce.
2. I would like to see a change to the shadow arts trait line specifically. so that thieves are not instantly saved by going into stealth, it is like playing wack a mole, and is quite discouraging when you are winning a fight only to see them stealth and come back with full health or even worse stealth for long periods of time using smoke fields n blasts or shadow refuge if i fail to fear them out of it.

Final note challenge:
I would like to see how your solo roaming experiences have been recently to confirm if I’m just having bad luck or am I right and are 90percent of your 1 vs 1 engagements involving fighting pistol dagger condition thieves and being frustrated at the profession and current meta build. Oh ill take any suggestions for how to fight against this build as a power necro as well thanks:)

I’ve fought a total of 1 p/d thief, and that was months ago on my warrior. Eventually i just decided to run away because the fight was going no where. Maybe its just your server/time of day?

This might not turn out all that positive because you are a necromancer having issues with a condition thief. Still I understand because you are power just preparing you for what may come in this thread.

The condi burst is the beginning with steal or whenever they steal is when the highest burst is coming. I don’t know what your build is but power staff and dagger off hand should allow you to transfer back to the thief. P/D thieves are the one condi build that can handle a condition necro just because they can survive the condition transfer by going into stealth, where other condition builds usually can’t.

I don’t run power on my necro so I can’t really comment on the play style I have run the P/D thief build before and the spike is usually after the steal/cnd sneak attack, then you want to try and get in for cloak and dagger to sneak attack again trying to setup another steal condi spike.

The steal depending on trats will poison, apply confusion, and allow for shadow strike or cnd to put cover vulnerability on with sneak attack follow up out of stealth.

I wouldn’t call P/D condi a meta shift maybe just luck on your part. I have condi p/d gear and my direct damage setup for my thief and run direct damage s/d most of the time but sometimes go p/d. It’s easy and its effective but it is weak when the numbers get larger and not 1v1/1v2’s. You can down in 1v2’s but getting a stomp is hard since you don’t have cleave and usually by that time you get someone down in a 1v2 it has become a 1v3+. It’s a troll build but dangerous in small man if you run venom share on it.

My personal experience lately has been even between direct damage thieves and P/D condi thieves I see about the same for numbers. I wouldn’t call your experience a meta shift which means most thieves solo roaming in WvW on all servers favor P/D condi which I don’t think is the case.

Carpboy.7145:

I’ve fought a total of 1 p/d thief, and that was months ago on my warrior. Eventually i just decided to run away because the fight was going no where. Maybe its just your server/time of day?

i havent seen many in bronze. its a dueling / ganking build and is actually kinda useless for anything else… which makes it bad at bronze roaming

Im just curious, what makes something bad at bronze roaming, but say, good at silver or gold roaming? Is there really that big a difference in leagues?

in bronze you dont have 10 mans defending every camp so solo roaming lets you threaten objectives where in gold/silver theres just so many more people that roaming consists more of looking for other 1-5 man groups to kill

for us its like the difference between eb and the bls… you dont really run eb camps cuz theres too many people around

Got it that actually makes a lot of sense. And here i thought i was the only one who doesn’t bother taking EB camps. Sorry to derail the topic OP

well its kinda relevant, the pd trickery thief is a relative rarity in low population areas which is where we are

Power necro solo roaming runs into cheese and wants it nerfed. Sorry buddy. Not happening. It is WvW roaming. Game mode does not really exist. Honestly power necro has no reason to roam solo and complain. You have no speed. 2 Players will kill you. Any stealth player will kill you. Why are you out there. I roam with my necro too dont get me wrong but I do not take it seriously. I know for a fact I will die if there are 2+ players or if a good mesmer/thief hell even warrior can constantly reset on you. If you have an 80 mesmer and an 80 thief those are the classes you should use to solo roam seriously with. Necro belongs with friends or zerg. Necro is my main – sad but true. I just use my pretty thief.

Just delete shadow rejuv trait and prismatic understanding . That way there will be no more “cheese” builds in 1v1. ( except maybe condi shout/banner warrior but they are easy to kill as a warrior but not for other classes)

Those 2 builds PU mesmer and P/D condi thief crush about 95% of the builds in the game in 1v1 situations.

Replace PU by something useful for mesmers and shadow rejuv with something less defensive.

best way to counter them thieves – Dire Trap Ranger, Condi bunker Engi, Zerker Medi guard (teleport in their face and boom)

I hardly ever run into P/D Thieves for some reason, but I DO roam Power Necro. Despite what Narkodx says (though I see where you’re coming from), I think Power Necro can be a useful roamer, though it probably depends on tier. I’m sure Condi would be better at taking upgraded camps, but as a roamer on Fort Aspenwood, I just have to switch to my wells and combined with Deathly Perception, I can destroy all of the guards in a handful of seconds.

Yes, escaping is a tall order, and 2v1 is a tall order. They can take points from stomping you, so in the grand scheme it can potentially be a loss. Yes, you can’t really stomp at all without rolling FitG or using Plague Form, so the 2v1s you can theoretically win are limited.

But the class/build/style works really, really well against most everything the game can throw at you in a 1v1 scenario.

@OP: It’s difficult to determine exactly what build you’re running from an anecdote alone, so making suggestions for increasing burst can be rough. However, the kicker about trying to burst condi Mesmer/Thief, in my experience, is that you need to be prepared with alternate ways to maintain pressure while also being able to survive their condi pressure. The best way to survive their pressure?

Transfer it back to them.

Plague Signet is my best friend as a solo roaming Power Necro. The only reason I replace it is if I’m running with a group and want the area control/additional boon removal. Otherwise, it’s on there. Yes, we have our heal that clears condis, and Staff #4 transfers, and Dagger #4 transfers, so if you run Staff/D+D, you have two tranfers to play with and one clear.

Except Dagger #4 is fairly easily read from an experienced opponent, and Staff #4 only transfers 3 to a single target. When you have a laundry list of conditions fighting one of these classes, sometimes you need that full clear.

It doesn’t really matter that you’re a power build with no condition damage. The key is that all of the confusion/torment/bleeds are off of you, and it’s an added bonus that they’re now on them. The delightful irony is that many of these condi players are bad at watching condis on themselves, so they’ll just attack through Confusion and start taking even more damage.

It’s higher risk, but the times I land a proper Plague Signet are the times that I either win against these specs, or come extremely close. If you miss the Plague Signet, chances are you’re going to lose, but that just adds to the tension for me, and I enjoy it.

I also try to swap in Well of Power if I know someone is a condi spec to add even more condi management, but don’t be afraid to swap your utilities around as the encounter demands. These builds often have all of the tools necessary to dodge any concentrated burst you might attempt, so I personally subscribe to trying to outlive their evading mechanics while still applying the appropriate pressure.

They have an advantage, but just remember, you’re in WvW. It’s a sandbox, and the rules of the engagement are self-applied. Did the Thief shadow-step away and Shadow Refuge to reset? Run the opposite direction and find critters to rebuild your LF. Want to escape the PU Mesmer? Chill him, or transfer all of the condis, or DS Fear, then just run away. The hilarious part about PU Mesmer is that they often don’t seem to have a good mechanism for keeping someone in a fight. You can also try to keep an eye on surrounding mobs when you are looking for engagements to find Dark Path targets to help disengage as well.

I think one of the best ways to deal with frustration from fighting a certain build is to just totally mix it up. Choose new weapon sets, choose new utilities you haven’t really used before, pick new traits, and see what happens. I discovered the joy of Well of Darkness combined with Chilling Darkness and it has really helped me handle many scenarios. I also dropped Staff for Axe+Dagger, and I love how it contributed to my style.

If you ever want to discuss it further, feel free to PM me in-game and I’d be happy to talk shop.

FirstInfantry.2795:

… Oh ill take any suggestions for how to fight against this build as a power necro as well thanks:)

Maybe ignore them? A solo P/D can capture guard posts and ruins but will have a hard time capturing camps, especially with an opposing player involved. It simply takes them too long.

a t s e.9614:

Just delete shadow rejuv trait and prismatic understanding . That way there will be no more “cheese” builds in 1v1. ( except maybe condi shout/banner warrior but they are easy to kill as a warrior but not for other classes)

Those 2 builds PU mesmer and P/D condi thief crush about 95% of the builds in the game in 1v1 situations.

Replace PU by something useful for mesmers and shadow rejuv with something less defensive.

if you die to a mesmer he isnt pu

I’m in T1… solo roaming just =’s people just try to run away to the nearest group/into tower

Thankfully there is PvP which is more balanced and people actually want to fight. If you’re looking for solo/small group engagements I highly recommend it.

Aberrant.6749:

I’m in T1… solo roaming just =’s people just try to run away to the nearest group/into tower

Thankfully there is PvP which is more balanced and people actually want to fight. If you’re looking for solo/small group engagements I highly recommend it.

I think this is true for all servers/tiers. Ill be watching these guys in a tower and then get bored so i go take a camp. They follow me so i know theyre not afk. Ill be in the middle of taking a camp, and theyll outnumber me 5 to 1, and they still don’t even try attacking me. Whats the point of pvp if youre gonna sit behind a door all day.?

Or another one of my personal favorites, the guys who follow you all around the map, but when you turn around to engage they immediately start going the other way. Its so weird to me. Am i supposed to be just autorunning somewhere?

Today I’ve met only P/D thieves while I was roaming with my (not PU) mesmer. Only exception was a condi necro, along with a bunker/regen ranger.

P/D is worse than D/P in terms of annoyance. P/D is the only condi build that can reliably beat a condi necro. The only way to beat a P/D is to go FULL (and I mean FULL) zerk and take them down in a single burst. Otherwise, they will just stealth and reset the fight at ease.
I don’t think it should be nerfed though. I usually troll them with Shadow Traps or sneaky Moa Morphs after I went back inside a tower to change utilities.

>>Maybe ignore them? A solo P/D can capture guard posts and ruins but will have a hard time capturing camps, especially with an opposing player involved. It simply takes them too long.

Err no. You can take down camps very fast with a P/d thief. I have both power and condi thief. Condi takes them down as fast if not faster.

Dagger storm in they are all bleeding and crippled. No need to worry about them catching you as you move. Drop caltrops they stand there stupidly . Use a couple AOE deathblossoms and you will have 20+ stacks of bleeds at 3k per tick on all the guards that clustered around you. Switch back to p/d and kill the cripples. You can sit in shadow refuge and watch them die. As you then focus the main attacks on the boss, the others will bleed out if you did it right.

When I took camps with my p/d d/d thief. I preferred to go right into the center and draw as many to me as possible including the supervisor as you will take them down faster.

80% of roamers are thieves and mesmers
90% of good wvw raid are wars and guards.