As a casual PvPer who’s just getting into Soloq and plays Ele, I have a question.
Currently it seems like Ele is one of the better classes in the meta, and everyone generally seems to agree it’s because of the buffed Celestial amulet and some runes (Strength/Pirate/etc.) I personally have yet to try out this ammy myself but it seems to be generally accepted as being the reason for Ele being good currently.
If Anet decides to nerf the Celestial amulet, how will the Ele fare? Will it still be in a decent spot? Or will it go back to the bottom of the pile like it had been for months prior to the previous feature pack?
Ele would be fine. Celestial isn’t the problem atm, its the classes that can stack might insanely to compensate for the low power and condi damage celestial provides. Celestial d/d ele is also insanely strong atm so a small nerf wouldn’t kill it.
There is a very simple solution that would not call for any kind of nerf to might stacking, which is not “OP” at all by the way. If any form of boon-stripping/stealing prioritized might after stability, there would be no reason to qq.
Of course this is really only needed against the popular x/x/x/6/6 Elementalist build, which can generate more boons than even a Necromancer can strip/steal.
Some would argue that shout Guadians are within the same realm of excessive boons. However due to the much longer cooldowns of Guardian virtues compared to Elementalist attunement swapping this is not true at all.
TL;DR Might stacking is not OP, boon removal however could be cleaned up to prioritize certain boons over others. Only in order to properly counter ONE (boring but nonetheless meta) build for ONE (fun as kitten) profession.
I am saying this even though I main an ele, so please no qq from ele’s who are happy with their boring PvP meta.
The issue isn’t celestial, its the ease with which professions (like ele) can stack might without any realistic counterplay. Most might stacking is done without any interaction between you and the target; you can stack might just as effectively completely alone as you can against an enemy. This means that no matter what your enemy does, no matter what skills they avoid, you are stacking might. Pair this with how badly might is prioritized by boon removal abilities (for example, Corrupt Boon is the only Necromancer removal which will always remove might, every other removal has might in the bottom half of the list, meaning it will be incredibly rare to remove), and you end up having builds which can stack might without interacting with their enemy, and re-stack might extremely easily on the rare chance that it is removed.
What does this lead to? It leads to 0/0/2/6/6 builds being not just incredibly tanky and supporty due to celestial stats and their traits, but also able to still deal very high damage through relatively “free” stats via might. The obvious solution would be to nerf might stacking both directly, through forcing you to actually successfully interact with your opponent to build might, and indirectly through raising might to a reasonable priority on removal skills.
Might now grants 35 Power and 15 Condition Damage per stack prior to the 35 Condition Damage.
You’re welcome.
Also, as for the “Might is not prioritized by boon removal” I can only add that the Guardian trait “Searing Flames” actually removes might as first priority.
To those saying Celestial is fine…what? It received a huge buff only because of the Ferocity change. It was already a decent stat on Eles and other builds that have a wide variety of damage/sustain. However, rather than just giving the set more ferocity to compensate they buffed everything by (I believe) 6%, which is an overall HUGE buff.
Let’s compare the PvP amulets and see how many overall stat points they have: Berserker/Valkyrie: 2340
For builds like Ele D/D or Axe + Sword/Bow on Warrior and many Engi builds there’s very little reason why you wouldn’t take this ammy. I could understand having a few more stat points due to how spread out they are like Zerk/Valk/Ramp, but 700-800? Hell no. Combine this with might stacking and you have builds that simply have superior stats to other ammys.
Might stacking and being able to do so with little to no enemy interaction is the bulk of the problem, but Celestial is certainly a contributing factor. It may not hit as hard as Zerker but it gains a TON of sustain in the process.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Might now grants 35 Power and 15 Condition Damage per stack prior to the 35 Condition Damage.
Why not 15 power and 35 condition or 25 both? It’s not like conditions builds are more common or recognized than power ones lol it would just give a harder time to fight the defensive boons regen,protection stop trying to make bunker more bunker.
Ele is a natural celestial I feel like they should make the most amulet unless you have their hardest counter boon removal,stealing or corruption. I don’t see most thieves, condi necro and mesmer have problem against them at least the one I saw got to had you can easily predict a D/D ele burst.
Ele skill bar is not here yet and war(well we know what happen) other classes don’t gain that much from amulet(maybe after patch).
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140 The Dhuumfire thread
Might now grants 35 Power and 15 Condition Damage per stack prior to the 35 Condition Damage.
Why not 15 power and 35 condition or 25 both? It’s not like conditions builds are more common or recognized than power ones lol it would just give a harder time to fight the defensive boons regen,protection stop trying to make bunker more bunker
1. Might originally only granted Power. Would be extremely odd if “Might” granted more Condition Damage.
2. Might-stacking Celestial builds heavily rely on spamming conditions (They even utilize Sigil of Doom). We would have a much healthier game if there was a clear distinction in Power and Condi builds.
Might should be used primarily to benefit power-builds. Although I suppose it’s okay that it grants condition damage as a slight bonus, so that it’s not completely useless on Condi-builds in a team setting.
Might now grants 35 Power and 15 Condition Damage per stack prior to the 35 Condition Damage.
Why not 15 power and 35 condition or 25 both? It’s not like conditions builds are more common or recognized than power ones lol it would just give a harder time to fight the defensive boons regen,protection stop trying to make bunker more bunker
1. Might originally only granted Power. Would be extremely odd if “Might” granted more Condition Damage.
2. Might-stacking Celestial builds heavily rely on spamming conditions (They even utilize Sigil of Doom). We would have a much healthier game if there was a clear distinction in Power and Condi builds.
Might should be used primarily to benefit power-builds. Although I suppose it’s okay that it grants condition damage as a slight bonus, so that it’s not completely useless on Condi-builds in a team setting.
Ele is a natural celestial I feel like they should make the most amulet unless you have their hardest counter boon removal,stealing or corruption. I don’t see most thieves, condi necro and mesmer have problem against them at least the one I saw got to had you can easily predict a D/D ele burst.
Ele skill bar is not here yet and war(well we know what happen) other classes don’t gain that much from amulet(maybe after patch).
Edit: Might is fine wait for the ele skill bar since war has been taking care of already.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140 The Dhuumfire thread
As long as the fan boys get aroused over the idea of double daggers, this build will persist on ele, and thief for that matter, regardless of any nerf.
I play glass S/F usually so I personally wouldn’t care much.
Necromancer Main
Taking a break from GW2 to play various
Nintendo games..
just buff back the boon steal of the thief again >_> problem somewhat solved
oh my god no why do you do this thief op nerf it we are doomed QQ
Pretty much this but people cried so hard about boonsteal thief…
And i’d like to see that again, but the same people who wants build diversity in this game don’t want counters to their builds
Although celestial has been becoming more popular recently its still far from being the go to stat choice for everyone across all game modes. Lots of players still running zerkers, pvt, dire, soldiers, rabid so I dont know why you think it would be nerfed.
Lots of buids are stronger by stacking specific stats to an extreme rather than have kinda of decent/poor stats all over the place by using celest, so I wouldn’t be worried if I where you op.
This is mostly from pve and wvw point of view. There is the possibility of celestial ammy getting a nerf in spvp but I would be surprised if it did.
Shikamaru X Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi(FT leader)
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir
As long as the fan boys get aroused over the idea of double daggers, this build will persist on … thief for that matter, regardless of any nerf.
Uh what? D/D thief is rarely celestial in anything except sPvP and is so in sPvP only because of stat caps which prevents D/D thief from properly utilizing more damage-optimized builds.
The problem remains ease of might stacking and very little reason for elementalists to put trait investment into any other trait line seeing as their attunement line is mandatory with none of the attunements being particularly good individually, and an ele might as well just stack defensive bonuses when all that might comes so easily.
So really the attunements and their subsequent trait lines need some reworks before the elementalist will find itself in a balanced state with build diversity.
To those saying Celestial is fine…what? It received a huge buff only because of the Ferocity change. It was already a decent stat on Eles and other builds that have a wide variety of damage/sustain. However, rather than just giving the set more ferocity to compensate they buffed everything by (I believe) 6%, which is an overall HUGE buff.
Let’s compare the PvP amulets and see how many overall stat points they have: Berserker/Valkyrie: 2340
For builds like Ele D/D or Axe + Sword/Bow on Warrior and many Engi builds there’s very little reason why you wouldn’t take this ammy. I could understand having a few more stat points due to how spread out they are like Zerk/Valk/Ramp, but 700-800? Hell no. Combine this with might stacking and you have builds that simply have superior stats to other ammys.
Might stacking and being able to do so with little to no enemy interaction is the bulk of the problem, but Celestial is certainly a contributing factor. It may not hit as hard as Zerker but it gains a TON of sustain in the process.
Yeah it doesn t even hit as hard as soldier…..after the ferocity nerf celestial falled back with damage because precision and ferocity needs power, and celestial lacks it.
That is any non condition attack deals less than soldier afaik.
GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
To those saying Celestial is fine…what? It received a huge buff only because of the Ferocity change. It was already a decent stat on Eles and other builds that have a wide variety of damage/sustain. However, rather than just giving the set more ferocity to compensate they buffed everything by (I believe) 6%, which is an overall HUGE buff.
Let’s compare the PvP amulets and see how many overall stat points they have: Berserker/Valkyrie: 2340
For builds like Ele D/D or Axe + Sword/Bow on Warrior and many Engi builds there’s very little reason why you wouldn’t take this ammy. I could understand having a few more stat points due to how spread out they are like Zerk/Valk/Ramp, but 700-800? Hell no. Combine this with might stacking and you have builds that simply have superior stats to other ammys.
Might stacking and being able to do so with little to no enemy interaction is the bulk of the problem, but Celestial is certainly a contributing factor. It may not hit as hard as Zerker but it gains a TON of sustain in the process.
Yeah it doesn t even hit as hard as soldier…..after the ferocity nerf celestial falled back with damage because precision and ferocity needs power, and celestial lacks it.
That is any non condition attack deals less than soldier afaik.
You’re discounting the condition damage which on most Ele builds they have a decent amount of access to. You also get a ton of team support through healing and might stacking.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
As long as the fan boys get aroused over the idea of double daggers, this build will persist on … thief for that matter, regardless of any nerf.
Uh what? D/D thief is rarely celestial in anything except sPvP and is so in sPvP only because of stat caps which prevents D/D thief from properly utilizing more damage-optimized builds.
The problem remains ease of might stacking and very little reason for elementalists to put trait investment into any other trait line seeing as their attunement line is mandatory with none of the attunements being particularly good individually, and an ele might as well just stack defensive bonuses when all that might comes so easily.
So really the attunements and their subsequent trait lines need some reworks before the elementalist will find itself in a balanced state with build diversity.
I’m not an idiot, so let me clarify.
I was making a joke that people think running double daggers is “cool” and aesthetically great, especially amongst new players. Yea, its effective, but tons of players literally run those builds since they think it looks sick. And I didn’t mean to imply that D/D thief ran celestial, that was not at all my intention.
The rest of your post about ele I agree with completely. I personally run S/F glass ele fresh air, since the playtyle of the D/D might machine is kinda dull to me. But even that uses might stacking on zerker to a slight extent when possible..
Necromancer Main
Taking a break from GW2 to play various
Nintendo games..
So the consensus seems to be the problem is with might stacking and not with the amulet. However, would nerfing the Ele’s inherent might stacking ability not be detrimental to non-D/D builds? Wouldn’t it be better to instead look at stuff like sigil of Battle etc? Caveat: I’m not an uber experienced PvPer, feel free to correct me.
So the consensus seems to be the problem is with might stacking and not with the amulet. However, would nerfing the Ele’s inherent might stacking ability not be detrimental to non-D/D builds? Wouldn’t it be better to instead look at stuff like sigil of Battle etc? Caveat: I’m not an uber experienced PvPer, feel free to correct me.
Eh I dont actualy really think might stacking is a prob on most classes. Just warrior well specifically the axe/sword/celestial might stacking war. None of the classes celest/might stacking are really over the top ele is just strong its not game breakingly op and not as faceroll as a warrior.
Shikamaru X Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi(FT leader)
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir
The issue isn’t celestial, its the ease with which professions (like ele) can stack might without any realistic counterplay. Most might stacking is done without any interaction between you and the target; you can stack might just as effectively completely alone as you can against an enemy. This means that no matter what your enemy does, no matter what skills they avoid, you are stacking might. Pair this with how badly might is prioritized by boon removal abilities (for example, Corrupt Boon is the only Necromancer removal which will always remove might, every other removal has might in the bottom half of the list, meaning it will be incredibly rare to remove), and you end up having builds which can stack might without interacting with their enemy, and re-stack might extremely easily on the rare chance that it is removed.
What does this lead to? It leads to 0/0/2/6/6 builds being not just incredibly tanky and supporty due to celestial stats and their traits, but also able to still deal very high damage through relatively “free” stats via might. The obvious solution would be to nerf might stacking both directly, through forcing you to actually successfully interact with your opponent to build might, and indirectly through raising might to a reasonable priority on removal skills.
Are we speculating what would happen to Ele if something got nerfed and if nothing else got buffed?
Not to mention what’ll happen to other runes, sigils and entire professions.
Celestial is fine play it with thief,guardian or necro and tell me how you did.War might stacking will not be as strong after patch and we still have to wait for the ele changes. Saying an amulet is giving you trouble when alone the stats are not much of threat is simply ridiculous.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140 The Dhuumfire thread
I tried soldier, then tried celestial. TBH I didn’t notice a difference.
PvP: The damage output is pretty much equivalent factoring in condi (dd ele has 2 burns and some very weak bleed, but soldier does more direct dps), and sustain is pretty much the same too since soldier has more toughness but cele has more healing.
In PvE, celestial is terrible since it does practically no damage vs. objects and condi damage is weak to begin with.
First sry for my bad english that is following :P
If u fight vs Cele Ele the highest dmg Source is burn
If u fight vs Axe/Sword + Longbow War the highest dmg Source is after Evis in most cases Burn and Tornment and with celestial both classes are pretty tanky and have access to a rly good sustain.
In my opinion just remove Celestial from sPvP
First sry for my bad english that is following :P
If u fight vs Cele Ele the highest dmg Source is burn
If u fight vs Axe/Sword + Longbow War the highest dmg Source is after Evis in most cases Burn and Tornment and with celestial both classes are pretty tanky and have access to a rly good sustain.
In my opinion just remove Celestial from sPvP
I wouldn’t outright remove celestial, but I do agree that burn is a huge source of damage for celestial ele, warrior, engineer, and ranger. I remember when I played an almost invincible settlers spirit ranger, my top cause of death each time was almost aways burning for like 15K+ damage over a long time. And that’s mostly because burning can be reapplied so easily by most of those classes.
Necromancer Main
Taking a break from GW2 to play various
Nintendo games..
Then again there are classes that will just wtf wreck celestial ele like its nothing. Balance is hardz mang.
I think the healing power on celestial amulet could be toned down a bit, maybe provide more power, precision and slightly reduce the healing, toughness accordingly… but then again, wouldn’t that just make celestial better for the other classes and less great for ele? >.>
They wouldn’t nerf celestial armor/weapons, however the pvp celestial amulet could be nerfed. I doubt they’d nerf strength runes further than they’re minor nerf 7 weeks ago.
Necromancer Main
Taking a break from GW2 to play various
Nintendo games..
I think they are better off re-scaling how well regen is affected by healing power. The really annoying ele/engy builds with incredible healing sustain have perma regen pretty much.
Wait to nerf until patch is out though imo, lots of changes coming.
