Guild Wars 2

Yeah amounts to more baseless theif hate.

Stealth skills are limited by reveal
Stealth skills are limited by access to stealth
Backstab is limited by enemy position

Theif is not OP, backstab isnt OP, its not spammable

As many have said theif is one of the higher difficulty classes, and its max performance is not high. People just dont like losing to them. Think of this, in what content has anyone ever asked for a theif?
not WvW
not fractals
not open world bosses
not dungeons
not spvp

phys.7689:

Yeah amounts to more baseless theif hate.

Stealth skills are limited by reveal
Stealth skills are limited by access to stealth
Backstab is limited by enemy position

…

Stealth is limited by stealth?

Clownmug.8357:

phys.7689:

Yeah amounts to more baseless theif hate.

Stealth skills are limited by reveal
Stealth skills are limited by access to stealth
Backstab is limited by enemy position

…

Stealth is limited by stealth?

stealth Skills, this means the skills you can only do from stealth, like backstab, etc. They are limited by access to stealth, meaning even if you can miss a backstab, you dont get infinite skills to apply stealth. Access to stealth is a way bigger limiter on use of stealth skills than people who dont play thief think.

IE most times if a theif misses his backstab, he wont get a chance for another just due to the fact his stealth runs out, and in order to get back in stealth he has to use a limited resource.

IE stealth skills are limited by access to stealth

Godmoney.2048:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

RyuDragnier.9476:

What they need to do is to give a debuff the more times you enter stealth, the debuff stacking up to 4 times. What the debuff does is it takes off a second off stealth the more times you enter it within a certain time frame (15 seconds). If you re-enter stealth within that time, you lose a second of stealth and a stack is added, but the entire stack resets. When the stack hits 4 times, all the stacks are removed, but you have a 15 second reveal. That’s the easiest way to get rid of perma stealth or stealth abusing through D/P, etc.

Note that you HAVE to have exited stealth and re-entered it, and you must be in combat mode. That way it punishes people who abuse it in combat, while leaving its normal capabilities untouched outside of it.

Repeating a skill as many times as the game mechanics allow it to because of purposeful design is not abusing a skill. There is no additional “debuff” needed other than “revealed” and you do not need to be “punished” for normal combat tactics of a backstab build.

What you’re saying, if logical should translate to:

Every time a necro pops lich form and hits 1,1,1,1,1, grasping claws damage should go down on each use.

Every time a warrior uses a movement skill to run away, the range should go down.

Every time a mesmer stealths, follow the same proposition above for thief.

Every time an engineer throws grenades they do less damage and don’t go as far.

I could go on.

Here’s the thing, the reason why I suggest this for stealth is because of how easy it is to just spam stealth in combat. I’ve played the build before, it’s possible to go into stealth just under 20 times a minute. If you assume that there’s a backstab with each stealth, that’s around 15 backstabs a minute. NO class should be able to spam a burst move that much in this game.

Are you standing still?

I mean how a thief could ever get more than 2 backstabs off a fight is beyond me. That would imply his target is AFK or is so new to the game they’re still double clicking dodgeing or something.

So you’re example is that a thief can backstab 15 times in a minute against a target dummy?

I’m just trying to clarify here how a thief could possibly back stab that much unless they’re fighting a target dummy.

Is useing a target dummy really the best example? I mean I could just as easily compare any class against that if the target is brain dead target dummy.

If a thief is able to get 15 backstabs against a player in 60 seconds that would have to imply that the theifs target either just installed the game this week or they’re just naturally bad at games.

Acrobatics 10, Fleet Shadow. You’ll move faster than somebody with swiftness. There is no standing still, it’s just really easy to hit somebody when you move faster than them. If you’re running glass, even a backstab from the front can do around 3-4K. Backstab itself is a burst that just needs to hit the target. From the back is indeed more damage, but hitting from the front can still do a number on somebody’s health.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Godmoney.2048:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

RyuDragnier.9476:

What they need to do is to give a debuff the more times you enter stealth, the debuff stacking up to 4 times. What the debuff does is it takes off a second off stealth the more times you enter it within a certain time frame (15 seconds). If you re-enter stealth within that time, you lose a second of stealth and a stack is added, but the entire stack resets. When the stack hits 4 times, all the stacks are removed, but you have a 15 second reveal. That’s the easiest way to get rid of perma stealth or stealth abusing through D/P, etc.

Note that you HAVE to have exited stealth and re-entered it, and you must be in combat mode. That way it punishes people who abuse it in combat, while leaving its normal capabilities untouched outside of it.

Repeating a skill as many times as the game mechanics allow it to because of purposeful design is not abusing a skill. There is no additional “debuff” needed other than “revealed” and you do not need to be “punished” for normal combat tactics of a backstab build.

What you’re saying, if logical should translate to:

Every time a necro pops lich form and hits 1,1,1,1,1, grasping claws damage should go down on each use.

Every time a warrior uses a movement skill to run away, the range should go down.

Every time a mesmer stealths, follow the same proposition above for thief.

Every time an engineer throws grenades they do less damage and don’t go as far.

I could go on.

Here’s the thing, the reason why I suggest this for stealth is because of how easy it is to just spam stealth in combat. I’ve played the build before, it’s possible to go into stealth just under 20 times a minute. If you assume that there’s a backstab with each stealth, that’s around 15 backstabs a minute. NO class should be able to spam a burst move that much in this game.

Are you standing still?

I mean how a thief could ever get more than 2 backstabs off a fight is beyond me. That would imply his target is AFK or is so new to the game they’re still double clicking dodgeing or something.

So you’re example is that a thief can backstab 15 times in a minute against a target dummy?

I’m just trying to clarify here how a thief could possibly back stab that much unless they’re fighting a target dummy.

Is useing a target dummy really the best example? I mean I could just as easily compare any class against that if the target is brain dead target dummy.

If a thief is able to get 15 backstabs against a player in 60 seconds that would have to imply that the theifs target either just installed the game this week or they’re just naturally bad at games.

Acrobatics 10, Fleet Shadow. You’ll move faster than somebody with swiftness. There is no standing still, it’s just really easy to hit somebody when you move faster than them. If you’re running glass, even a backstab from the front can do around 3-4K. Backstab itself is a burst that just needs to hit the target. From the back is indeed more damage, but hitting from the front can still do a number on somebody’s health.

Again I’ll ask. Are you standing still?

That trait does not make thieves super fast. I’ve used that trait plenty to know how it works.

Most decent thieves don’t even like that trait because it’s redundant. I used to find thieves hard to fight until I manned up and learned how to fight them. Now i find them to be one of the weaker classes in the game.

Exploiting positioning is just easy to do once you know a thieves mechanics.

I AM a thief in WvW, I know the positionings well. I work in a way to where I’m only getting frontstabbed. But since it’s always by GC thieves, the damage is always pretty heavy. It’s annoying however to see them stealth again in 3 seconds to do it again, and for the process to repeat around 10 times a minute. That’s just levels of BS annoying that isn’t fun. At least Warriors can’t spam Killshot or Eviscerate that much.

RyuDragnier.9476:

What they need to do is to give a debuff the more times you enter stealth, the debuff stacking up to 4 times. What the debuff does is it takes off a second off stealth the more times you enter it within a certain time frame (15 seconds). If you re-enter stealth within that time, you lose a second of stealth and a stack is added, but the entire stack resets. When the stack hits 4 times, all the stacks are removed, but you have a 15 second reveal. That’s the easiest way to get rid of perma stealth or stealth abusing through D/P, etc.

Note that you HAVE to have exited stealth and re-entered it, and you must be in combat mode. That way it punishes people who abuse it in combat, while leaving its normal capabilities untouched outside of it.

If they ever made thief viable outside of stealth and some trolly long ranged evasion builds, I think this would be a fine change.

RyuDragnier.9476:

I AM a thief in WvW, I know the positionings well. I work in a way to where I’m only getting frontstabbed. But since it’s always by GC thieves, the damage is always pretty heavy. It’s annoying however to see them stealth again in 3 seconds to do it again, and for the process to repeat around 10 times a minute. That’s just levels of BS annoying that isn’t fun. At least Warriors can’t spam Killshot or Eviscerate that much.

your problem is with GC in general then, frontstab dmg is not worth the time or energy, its a consolation prize at best.
less than heart seeker 50% and lower
less than shadow shot
less than AA over time.

RyuDragnier.9476:

I AM a thief in WvW, I know the positionings well. I work in a way to where I’m only getting frontstabbed. But since it’s always by GC thieves, the damage is always pretty heavy. It’s annoying however to see them stealth again in 3 seconds to do it again, and for the process to repeat around 10 times a minute. That’s just levels of BS annoying that isn’t fun. At least Warriors can’t spam Killshot or Eviscerate that much.

You’re getting killed by frontstabs?

Aberrant.6749:

RyuDragnier.9476:

I AM a thief in WvW, I know the positionings well. I work in a way to where I’m only getting frontstabbed. But since it’s always by GC thieves, the damage is always pretty heavy. It’s annoying however to see them stealth again in 3 seconds to do it again, and for the process to repeat around 10 times a minute. That’s just levels of BS annoying that isn’t fun. At least Warriors can’t spam Killshot or Eviscerate that much.

You’re getting killed by frontstabs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT49R7Ffxzg

:| kitten , frontstabs… i bet that’s going to be the next OP thing on the list…

Zero Day.2594:

Aberrant.6749:

RyuDragnier.9476:

I AM a thief in WvW, I know the positionings well. I work in a way to where I’m only getting frontstabbed. But since it’s always by GC thieves, the damage is always pretty heavy. It’s annoying however to see them stealth again in 3 seconds to do it again, and for the process to repeat around 10 times a minute. That’s just levels of BS annoying that isn’t fun. At least Warriors can’t spam Killshot or Eviscerate that much.

You’re getting killed by frontstabs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT49R7Ffxzg

:| kitten , frontstabs… i bet that’s going to be the next OP thing on the list…

Man that 1.2 multiplier is huge! I betcha no other skills in the game have that high of a multiplier!

Aberrant.6749:

RyuDragnier.9476:

I AM a thief in WvW, I know the positionings well. I work in a way to where I’m only getting frontstabbed. But since it’s always by GC thieves, the damage is always pretty heavy. It’s annoying however to see them stealth again in 3 seconds to do it again, and for the process to repeat around 10 times a minute. That’s just levels of BS annoying that isn’t fun. At least Warriors can’t spam Killshot or Eviscerate that much.

You’re getting killed by frontstabs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT49R7Ffxzg

Nahh, it usually ends with the other thief running after I survive long enough for a roaming group of my server allies to come up. I find it to be very annoying though, I can only imagine how people who can’t escape or survive it easily feel about it.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Aberrant.6749:

RyuDragnier.9476:

I AM a thief in WvW, I know the positionings well. I work in a way to where I’m only getting frontstabbed. But since it’s always by GC thieves, the damage is always pretty heavy. It’s annoying however to see them stealth again in 3 seconds to do it again, and for the process to repeat around 10 times a minute. That’s just levels of BS annoying that isn’t fun. At least Warriors can’t spam Killshot or Eviscerate that much.

You’re getting killed by frontstabs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT49R7Ffxzg

Nahh, it usually ends with the other thief running after I survive long enough for a roaming group of my server allies to come up. I find it to be very annoying though, I can only imagine how people who can’t escape or survive it easily feel about it.

Annoying =/= OP, in need of a nerf, change, or anything like that.

There are annoying builds for every single profession.

One player might find a build annoying while another may well not (it’s very subjective).

Just for example my eng loves to fight thieves. Eng has so many good counters Vs. thieves. Yet… engies hate fighting necromancers. So many counters (for the necro).

Please tell me where these players are that die to frontstabs. I would love some free kills.

Aberrant, I believe they’re FA. Look for a minionmancer, guardian, and engineer trio.

Aberrant.6749:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Aberrant.6749:

RyuDragnier.9476:

I AM a thief in WvW, I know the positionings well. I work in a way to where I’m only getting frontstabbed. But since it’s always by GC thieves, the damage is always pretty heavy. It’s annoying however to see them stealth again in 3 seconds to do it again, and for the process to repeat around 10 times a minute. That’s just levels of BS annoying that isn’t fun. At least Warriors can’t spam Killshot or Eviscerate that much.

You’re getting killed by frontstabs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT49R7Ffxzg

Nahh, it usually ends with the other thief running after I survive long enough for a roaming group of my server allies to come up. I find it to be very annoying though, I can only imagine how people who can’t escape or survive it easily feel about it.

Annoying =/= OP, in need of a nerf, change, or anything like that.

There are annoying builds for every single profession.

One player might find a build annoying while another may well not (it’s very subjective).

Just for example my eng loves to fight thieves. Eng has so many good counters Vs. thieves. Yet… engies hate fighting necromancers. So many counters (for the necro).

Please tell me where these players are that die to frontstabs. I would love some free kills.

Yeah, thief is one of the only classes that gives me decent fights. If they nerf them anymore it’s just going to be a joke.

I don’t want thief nerfs because they’re one of the most fun classes to fight. I haven’t felt they’re too strong in months and months.

Those backstab nerfs 10 months ago or so already brought thief pretty well into line.

Those nerfs didn’t spread to WvW Godmoney, which is where most of the complaints of backstab originate. sPvP, Backstab is pretty much at a good spot I feel.

Sigh as someone already mentioned…

Most people who complained do not even playa thief nor even want to learn how to counter them.

Go roll a thief if they are so high reward/no risk and then…

DIE COUNTLESS TIMES UNTIL YOU REALISE: WOW THIS PROFESSION ACTUALLY NEED SOME BUFFS

I am still learnin how to thief and i assure you guys, most of you out there are putting thing in a far too simple context. Just some things to consider

C&D misses A LOT!! by blocking or evading, or even just walking in another direction is effective if the C&D thief is not using Steal to catch you.

It is hard to get to the back of an enemy if he know what he is doing.
Imagin a warrior swinging his hammer which turning around/spinning, you can easily take more dmg than what you deal and even accidentally frontstab the person.. Any block will even tell you where the theif is at to allow you to AA him

AOE skills s**ts on Backstab thief.
See a thief going stealth? drop aoe and walk around in it!! it is not rocket science!

for a simple stealth →backstab countless things can go wrong and nearly every mistake = dead thief…

how is this no risk high reward!!

TL;DR:
People who complain: Go roll a thief, play it, and see how ridiculous you are sounding

what thief needs is a 50% damage reduction all across the board, no more stealth, no stun breaks, and perma-cripple.

am i doing it right?

BrunoBRS.5178:

what thief needs is a 50% damage reduction all across the board, no more stealth, no stun breaks, and perma-cripple.

am i doing it right?

Yes you are. I think this belongs on the Thief Nerf Wish list (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Nerf-Wish-list/page/5).

Food for thought,

Most every suggestion I’ve seen about backstab involves making it completely unviable vs blind or block completely removing the offensive potential for a thief in stealth.

For example a well of darkness or a blackpowder completely negate a stealth for offensive purposes making the thief waste a cooldown they could have otherwise used defensively. The same is true for aegis or a skill like shield stance.

The most reasonable suggestion I’ve seen without being too drastic is adding a 1 initiative cost to stealth attacks.

I had a thought for a minor change to help out with this a bit. Some kind of indicator that an attack was made from stealth that didn’t connect would be wonderful.

I can think of logistical issues that a solution would entail resolving, but I think part of the issue people have is that they use things like blocks, blinds, evades, etc, but don’t always have a clear indication of the source of a block or evade being a stealthed foe. Blind gives no indication. A more clear indication would help alert people to dodge. This would obviously be done as a slight overall nerf to all stealth sources, including mesmer for example.

Wow, thieves coming in to defend the class and say it’s all fine. Surely no one saw that coming….

DeWolfe.2174:

Wow, thieves coming in to defend the class and say it’s all fine. Surely no one saw that coming….

Wow . . . bunch of people who never played a thief and never bothered to learn how to counter stealth wailing for a nerf to stealth.

Unfortunately . . . every thief player saw that one coming.

Well I generally think Thief is fine these days, but I understand what the OP is getting at.

If you backstab an opponent actively blocking, you can immediately just backstab again after the initial block as either damage has to land, or your stealth runs out (in which case you won’t be Revealed and therefore can immediately re-stealth which is fine). I’ve sometimes felt like active blocking should apply Revealed as it’s an example of definitive counter-play and should be rewarded more. I’m thinking about weapon skills like Illusionary Riposte, Counterattack and Counterblow. I don’t think missing a backstab or having a backstab evaded should apply Revealed though as I think that would be far too crippling, but an active block at the right moment could make attacking from stealth that bit more risky.

Experienced Thieves probably wouldn’t have a problem with stuff like this and it could open the Thief up to some buffs in other areas. However, it would make backstab builds slightly less forgiving against certain opponents, which might make the profession less accessible to some.

The initial post in this thread was about missing your hits wont punish you in any means.

Backstab stealth builds usually had no drawbacks for missing a backstab. This was a pretty hot topic on /r/guildwars2.

Instead of just flat out revealing if you miss the backstab like /r/ suggested.

To bring this discussion back on track, here are my suggestions:
Stealth
If you use a weaponskill while stealthed, you will become visible.
Revealed
If the skill that broke your stealth deals damage to an opponent, you will gain the effect Revealed.

I didnt read the whole thread, but did anyone mention that backstab extra damage happens also from the sides and not just from the back, thus making it quite easy to land?

Well, if they wanted to do something to it (and I’m not saying whether they should or shouldn’t), they should just put a short cooldown on it.

For instance, if you use backstab, but it doesn’t hit anything, it goes on like a 1s cooldown, then you can try again if you’re still stealthed.

I think just simply revealing the thief would be too punishing, especially since weird stuff will happen sometimes, or a bit of lag can cause position desync. Stealth is also often vital for thief builds in terms of generating offence and surviving.

The future nerf to crit damage will also tone down the full zerk hidden killer builds, so these sort of tactics will bring less reward for the same amount of risk.

I think they should change it so that you always become revealed when dropping out of stealth, meaning you can’t just CnD or whatnot again if you couldn’t line up your backstab. But I don’t think this sort of thing will ever come to pass.

hooma.9642:

Mek.2947:

The drawback is you waste 5 initiative?

if u are stealthed and miss u dont waste anything.

want to backstab guard with aegis? just attack 2 times… this example shows how bad stealthed attacks are.

If your opponent manages to pull off two Backstabs on one stealth, then either a) the thief managed to get a lot of stealth for a very long time or b) you’re just a bad player. Assuming the first isn’t true, missing your BS gives opponents an idea of where you are positioned, which in turn makes it extremely easy to counter you for a few more seconds. With Backstab’s relatively long cast time, these few seconds tend to mean that your opponent isn’t going to be able to hit you again. Unless, of course, you choose to stand still.

Arganthium.5638:

hooma.9642:

Mek.2947:

The drawback is you waste 5 initiative?

if u are stealthed and miss u dont waste anything.

want to backstab guard with aegis? just attack 2 times… this example shows how bad stealthed attacks are.

If your opponent manages to pull off two Backstabs on one stealth, then either a) the thief managed to get a lot of stealth for a very long time or b) you’re just a bad player. Assuming the first isn’t true, missing your BS gives opponents an idea of where you are positioned, which in turn makes it extremely easy to counter you for a few more seconds. With Backstab’s relatively long cast time, these few seconds tend to mean that your opponent isn’t going to be able to hit you again. Unless, of course, you choose to stand still.

Backstab has a 1/4 cast time. How is that long?

Aza.2105:

Arganthium.5638:

hooma.9642:

Mek.2947:

The drawback is you waste 5 initiative?

if u are stealthed and miss u dont waste anything.

want to backstab guard with aegis? just attack 2 times… this example shows how bad stealthed attacks are.

If your opponent manages to pull off two Backstabs on one stealth, then either a) the thief managed to get a lot of stealth for a very long time or b) you’re just a bad player. Assuming the first isn’t true, missing your BS gives opponents an idea of where you are positioned, which in turn makes it extremely easy to counter you for a few more seconds. With Backstab’s relatively long cast time, these few seconds tend to mean that your opponent isn’t going to be able to hit you again. Unless, of course, you choose to stand still.

Backstab has a 1/4 cast time. How is that long?

Why don’t you try using it in-game. Almost every cast in the game is longer than what the tooltip says, especially when you take into account after cast. For instance, thief’s pistol has an after cast so long that its total cast is more like 1s than .5s. Infi Return, which supposedly has a cast time of .25s, actually has a cast time that is more like 1s or so as well. Backstab has a much longer cast than .25s, trust me. Go try it out for yourself.

Arganthium.5638:

Aza.2105:

Arganthium.5638:

hooma.9642:

Mek.2947:

The drawback is you waste 5 initiative?

if u are stealthed and miss u dont waste anything.

want to backstab guard with aegis? just attack 2 times… this example shows how bad stealthed attacks are.

If your opponent manages to pull off two Backstabs on one stealth, then either a) the thief managed to get a lot of stealth for a very long time or b) you’re just a bad player. Assuming the first isn’t true, missing your BS gives opponents an idea of where you are positioned, which in turn makes it extremely easy to counter you for a few more seconds. With Backstab’s relatively long cast time, these few seconds tend to mean that your opponent isn’t going to be able to hit you again. Unless, of course, you choose to stand still.

Backstab has a 1/4 cast time. How is that long?

Why don’t you try using it in-game. Almost every cast in the game is longer than what the tooltip says, especially when you take into account after cast. For instance, thief’s pistol has an after cast so long that its total cast is more like 1s than .5s. Infi Return, which supposedly has a cast time of .25s, actually has a cast time that is more like 1s or so as well. Backstab has a much longer cast than .25s, trust me. Go try it out for yourself.

Its .25 seconds. You might experience a longer time because of your latency.

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

To bring this discussion back on track, here are my suggestions:
Stealth
If you use a weaponskill while stealthed, you will become visible.
Revealed
If the skill that broke your stealth deals damage to an opponent, you will gain the effect Revealed.

That way professions with good access to aegis and blinds would be immun to stealth attacks.

People must realize that the drawback of stealth attacks is that you actually have to gain stealth first. A D/D thief has to land C&D to gain stealth, it costs 50% ini. If you miss C&D the ini is lost. You only have one chance to land unless you are at 100% ini. After using it twice you are at 0 ini, aka useless.

The risk is that you play the overall weakest class in the game in order to be able to obliterate average skill glass-geared players.

I’m not saying it’s well balanced, but Thieves are definitely not as OP in general as a lot of non Thief players assume.

Arganthium.5638:

Aza.2105:

Arganthium.5638:

hooma.9642:

Mek.2947:

The drawback is you waste 5 initiative?

if u are stealthed and miss u dont waste anything.

want to backstab guard with aegis? just attack 2 times… this example shows how bad stealthed attacks are.

If your opponent manages to pull off two Backstabs on one stealth, then either a) the thief managed to get a lot of stealth for a very long time or b) you’re just a bad player. Assuming the first isn’t true, missing your BS gives opponents an idea of where you are positioned, which in turn makes it extremely easy to counter you for a few more seconds. With Backstab’s relatively long cast time, these few seconds tend to mean that your opponent isn’t going to be able to hit you again. Unless, of course, you choose to stand still.

Backstab has a 1/4 cast time. How is that long?

Why don’t you try using it in-game. Almost every cast in the game is longer than what the tooltip says, especially when you take into account after cast. For instance, thief’s pistol has an after cast so long that its total cast is more like 1s than .5s. Infi Return, which supposedly has a cast time of .25s, actually has a cast time that is more like 1s or so as well. Backstab has a much longer cast than .25s, trust me. Go try it out for yourself.

1. its total possible to hit 2 times during 1 stealth application with backstab. if u want get rid of aegis u dont need to position yourself properly. just hit, esp cause u can have a lot of stealth time throught shadow refuge. why? see 2+3

2. cnd+mug => mug hits before cnd. aegis gone. cnd stealth
3. bp+hs => hs hits if used in range or in combo with stealth/signet. hs nor steal breaks stealth throught combofinisher and clear aegis

u see the typical stealth application doesnt need consider aegis. i think that shouldnt be.

Evasion non stealth thieves are the OP thief tbh.

The stealth spamming BS thieves are easy to deal with

The only problem i have with Backstab. is that for a skill that deals SO much burst damage – it costs them NOTHING to use (bar being in stealth) Make BS cost say 6 Initiative and make it so that every second they are in stealth without using it, it costs 1 initiative more. This is to counter the fact that they can gain initiative (among other things) while in stealth

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The only problem i have with Backstab. is that for a skill that deals SO much burst damage – it costs them NOTHING to use (bar being in stealth) Make BS cost say 6 Initiative and make it so that every second they are in stealth without using it, it costs 1 initiative more. This is to counter the fact that they can gain initiative (among other things) while in stealth

So a C&D Backstab would cost 12 ini if you backstabbed right away (that’s ignoring the c&d aftercast time any time needed for positioning)… BP→HS→Backstab would cost 15… that’s not at all reasonable. I take if you’ve never played a thief?

Aberrant.6749:

So a C&D Backstab would cost 12 ini if you backstabbed right away (that’s ignoring the c&d aftercast time any time needed for positioning)… BP->HS->Backstab would cost 15… that’s not at all reasonable. I take if you’ve never played a thief?

No. Whats not reasonable is that Thief get a FREE hit that they can try to redo should they miss that can hit silly numbers and cost them nothing to do so. This would then also stop the BS into HS spamming as well…

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Aberrant.6749:

So a C&D Backstab would cost 12 ini if you backstabbed right away (that’s ignoring the c&d aftercast time any time needed for positioning)… BP->HS->Backstab would cost 15… that’s not at all reasonable. I take if you’ve never played a thief?

No. Whats not reasonable is that Thief get a FREE hit that they can try to redo should they miss that can hit silly numbers and cost them nothing to do so. This would then also stop the BS into HS spamming as well…

You had a chance to prevent the thief from stealthing in the first place (other than with blinding powder). The thief risked ini to do that or a utility cd to do that. It wasn’t FREE to create the conditions needed to be able to backstab.

Now even after failing to do that, you have an opportunity to reposition (try force a frontstab) or punish the thief when he comes in for a backstab. You’re asking for yet ANOTHER punishment on top of that…

I’ll ask you again… how many hours (if any) do you have on a thief?

Aberrant.6749:

You had a chance to prevent the thief from stealthing in the first place (other than with blinding powder). The thief risked ini to do that or a utility cd to do that. It wasn’t FREE to create the conditions needed to be able to backstab. Now even after that you have an opportunity to reposition (force a frontstab) or punish the thief when he comes in for a backstab. You’re asking for yet ANOTHER punishment on top of that…

I’ll ask you again… how many hours (if any) do you have on a thief?

Now this simply doesn’t work.
Why?

Because it assumes that you saw the thief. How do you prevent a player that you never saw do a an attack on you that you have no idea is coming because again, you never saw them to begin with.

They didnt risk ANYTHING. That is the point. It is a FREE attack that you get to keep retrying until they hit or run out of stealth. How is any of that “risk”? Lets not forget just how easy it is to get into stealth and just what options for regen they have inside it be hit health, initiative or even condition removal.

So, again i ask: Where is the risk?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Aberrant.6749:

You had a chance to prevent the thief from stealthing in the first place (other than with blinding powder). The thief risked ini to do that or a utility cd to do that. It wasn’t FREE to create the conditions needed to be able to backstab. Now even after that you have an opportunity to reposition (force a frontstab) or punish the thief when he comes in for a backstab. You’re asking for yet ANOTHER punishment on top of that…

I’ll ask you again… how many hours (if any) do you have on a thief?

Now this simply doesn’t work.
Why?

Because it assumes that you saw the thief. How do you prevent a player that you never saw do a an attack on you that you have no idea is coming because again, you never saw them to begin with.

They didnt risk ANYTHING. That is the point. It is a FREE attack that you get to keep retrying until they hit or run out of stealth. How is any of that “risk”? Lets not forget just how easy it is to get into stealth and just what options for regen they have inside it be hit health, initiative or even condition removal.

So, again i ask: Where is the risk?

The only way you’re not going to see a thief is if they properly time stealth with SR before you round a corner with a high enough wall to where you don’t see the house image above it or something and are far enough away to not hear the sound it creates. Even then that prep could well be worthless if you don’t go the direction they thought you were going to go in and has just blown the SR CD. Otherwise you should have some indication that the thief is there through clouds of smoke etc.

Healing in stealth + cond removal isn’t even enough to keep the glass thieves alive through a decently timed cond burst… you can still continue to channel skills on an injured thief and the healing won’t be enough… you can still cleave on an injured thief and the healing won’t be enough… and during this period the thief can’t attack back or he’ll become revealed.

6 ini per backstab alone is redic. nevermind the ini loss while stealthed.

I’ll ask one last time before I just leave this up to L2P… how many hours do you have on a thief?

teg.1340:

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

To bring this discussion back on track, here are my suggestions:
Stealth
If you use a weaponskill while stealthed, you will become visible.
Revealed
If the skill that broke your stealth deals damage to an opponent, you will gain the effect Revealed.

That way professions with good access to aegis and blinds would be immun to stealth attacks.

People must realize that the drawback of stealth attacks is that you actually have to gain stealth first. A D/D thief has to land C&D to gain stealth, it costs 50% ini. If you miss C&D the ini is lost. You only have one chance to land unless you are at 100% ini. After using it twice you are at 0 ini, aka useless.

Although to be fair, d/d thieves generally don’t use their initiative for anything other than CnD. Heartseeker is used for either escapes or finishing a low HP target, although backstab is often just as good as the latter. Death blossom is almost never used in a non-condi d/d spec (at least in PvP), and the dagger toss is very situational.

But yes, it is quite costly, and it’s not the hardest thing to read either. The part that annoys me about it is that you can use it to stealth chain, meaning the enemy can’t actually have any time to read the ability. You can also use it just prior to steal to effectively eliminate the cast time, although it’s not like that can be done all the time.

I think you can also forcibly sheath weapons and it will cancel the ability without the initiative cost, possibly baiting out an enemy dodge, although I haven’t tested this.

DeWolfe.2174:

What backstab needs is a huge reduction in damage. The 10% crit dmg reduction incoming isn’t enough. Thieves need 25% damage reduction to get them in the realm of being realistically balanced. With mobility and stealth, Thieves should be hitting the lightest, not the hardest.

The class has been the golden child of the Devs since launch and it still shows.

You got confused there mate. This is “Nerf thief” topic, not “Nerf warrior” topic.

I don’t mind CnD. I don’t mind backstab’s damage, really. I don’t even mind that I can’t see it coming.

What does bother me is that if I can predict the timing of their backstab and attempt to counter with a block, evade, or invuln the thief can continue to spam one until the skill lands or their stealth ends. Yes, they spent initiative to get into stealth but they got their payoff for that. CnD does a significant amount of damage on its own and the thief was untargetable for a time. There isn’t a downside to missing the backstab itself.

If any other class uses a skill and fails to land it, there is a penalty in the way of a CD. The only comparable situation is warriors missing a burst skill and retaining their adrenaline. Thieves should have some sort of downside of their own, most likely just losing stealth.

man, looking at all this posts one would assume stealth lasts like 3 hours and backstab hits for 17k dmg + thief in stealth is invulnerable and has stability

what kind of build is it? i want it O.o

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The only problem i have with Backstab. is that for a skill that deals SO much burst damage – it costs them NOTHING to use (bar being in stealth) Make BS cost say 6 Initiative and make it so that every second they are in stealth without using it, it costs 1 initiative more. This is to counter the fact that they can gain initiative (among other things) while in stealth

Tell you what… I’ll go along with a nerf to make my C&D into Backstab combo cost 12 ini… but you have to be willing for my Backstab to be an unblockable, 30k damage dealing, one shot tool regardless of whether I hit you in the front of the back. Seriously, you must be clueless if you’re even suggesting a change like this. Please, for the love of this game and actual real discussion, move on and do not post on a thief topic again.

Cynz.9437:

man, looking at all this posts one would assume stealth lasts like 3 hours and backstab hits for 17k dmg + thief in stealth is invulnerable and has stability

what kind of build is it? i want it O.o

It’s that 30/30/30/30/30 build that’s out didn’t you hear?

Hmmm no Backstab is high risk and high reward, it’s fairly balanced though less combative and more of a guessing anticipation game. You can out play any thief with almost any class or build. The build actually takes skill to play, and even if you can argue a low skill ceiling it’s better than the passive builds and tanky condi cleave. (The real no risk high reward builds)

And I’m all for stealth over evade spam.

Sure it sucks then you get ganked from a hidden refuge off point, but it’s really only super effective vs glass, and you can always turn the fight around with counter preassure.

Daishi.6027:

Hmmm no Backstab is high risk and high reward, it’s fairly balanced though less combative and more of a guessing anticipation game.

That’s the problem though. Your anticipation of the actual backstab is of pretty limited use. You can guess the exact moment that they hit their 1 key, and put of an aegis, or dodge, or invuln, and it gains you nothing. The thief can continue to attempt that backstab until their stealth timer runs out. At which point they can retreat to regen initiative, or potentially stealth and try again right there.

CnD is not part of the cost of that backstab, it applies it’s own damage and you still get the payoff of stealth from it regardless of whether you go in for a backstab or not.

Look at it this way. Say I’m running a D/D ele and I use drakes breath to apply burning, as a set up to use fire grab. I then try my fire grab, but it gets evaded. Does drakes breath count as part of my cost for using fire grab? Even though my opponent was skilled enough to dodge my fire grab, should I now be able to attempt fire grab again immediately without penalty of having missed the first time?

Khalic.3561:

Daishi.6027:

Hmmm no Backstab is high risk and high reward, it’s fairly balanced though less combative and more of a guessing anticipation game.

That’s the problem though. Your anticipation of the actual backstab is of pretty limited use. You can guess the exact moment that they hit their 1 key, and put of an aegis, or dodge, or invuln, and it gains you nothing. The thief can continue to attempt that backstab until their stealth timer runs out. At which point they can retreat to regen initiative, or potentially stealth and try again right there.

CnD is not part of the cost of that backstab, it applies it’s own damage and you still get the payoff of stealth from it regardless of whether you go in for a backstab or not.

Look at it this way. Say I’m running a D/D ele and I use drakes breath to apply burning, as a set up to use fire grab. I then try my fire grab, but it gets evaded. Does drakes breath count as part of my cost for using fire grab? Even though my opponent was skilled enough to dodge my fire grab, should I now be able to attempt fire grab again immediately without penalty of having missed the first time?

If it put about half your skills on CD to apply the required burn, I would agree it should… but that’s hardly the case with ele.