Guild Wars 2

INTRO:

Resilience is a new boon idea that can be used to balance conditions in PvP. In the current PvP meta, conditions can be applied too easily than they can be removed. Conditions also stack too quickly through passive and easy to use application methods (like autoattack spam). This idea will remedy these problems.

THEORY:

The way resilience works is simple:

When a player gains the resilience boon, the next condition that would normally afflict them fails instead. Resilence also stacks in intensity. So if you have 2 stacks of resilience on you, the next two conditions that would afflict you fail instead. Gaining resilience will not remove conditions that have already afflicted you. Think of it as aegis for conditions.

PROOF OF CONCEPT:

An example of resilience in play:

I use two different skills that stack resilience twice on me for 10 seconds each. A necro uses 2 bleeds on me. Instead of the bleeds hitting me, they would remove 1 stack of resilience each instead.

This also works for varied condition types. If I have 2 stacks of resilence and a necro uses 1 bleed and one poison on me. The bleed and poison would fail and my 2 stacks of resilience would be removed.

The purpose of this idea is to allow players to setup condition prevention. This also promotes a higher skill level in PvP play, because a condition user who is pitted against a player who has resilience skills will need to land weaker conditions to remove the resilience in order to ensure their more potent condition skills land and stick.

Also note that resilience is a boon and can be countered by boon removal.

INTEGRATION INTO THE CURRENT GAME:

Resilience can be added in several ways.

1.) A selection of existing condition removal skills can be changed to instead add resilience instead of cleansing.

2.) New resilience skills can be added.

3.) Existing and new condition removal skills that are intended to be more powerful can first remove condition then add stacks of resilience for a 2 part effect.

ICON:

See attached screenshot.

So basically it’s Aegis except less useful.

So countering conditions will become:

Aegis
Resilience
Blocking
Dodging
Evading
Invulnerable
Cleansing
Blinding

Of course conditions can be applied more than they can be removed. Conditions are just a means for attacking. If you could dodge more often than you took direct damage, that’d be silly.

It would be an interesting idea when beginning discussions about the game, but I don’t think it fits. I do think people exaggerate conditions way too much.

Conditions are balanced just fine. Simply because bandwagoners make mindless complaints without testing or knowing fact, doesn’t mean they are not balanced. I know too many players, including myself, who have no particular problem with conditions in PvP.

It’s a good thing he’s provided an icon though. I’m sure it’ll prove helpful.

No.

This does nothing to fix condition play and counter play. The problem with condition damage is traits, runes, and sigils giving access to multiple types of conditions that all do damage concurrently. In WvW, condition duration food makes it worse.

The proper solution is to strictly control what conditions a build has access to and the durations of each.

The problem is that there is no problem with conditions and some of you keep claiming there is a problem, while offering absolutely no argument …..

dancingmonkey.4902:

The problem is that there is no problem with conditions and some of you keep claiming there is a problem, while offering absolutely no argument …..

Here’s the problem: when you can stack multiple types of conditions with high condition damage, the damage per tick becomes overwhelming. Instead of being attrition-based or supplementary, condition damage is doing more than power-based damage in short time periods. Further, condition damage is driven by one stat, compared to three for power damage. Power damage is further affected by toughness, the protection boon, and other direct damage reduction skills and traits. All combined, certain builds are doing more damage with conditions while spending a lot of their remaining stat budget on defensive stats. You have someone doing significant damage that is difficult to avoid and hard to kill.

Exedore.6320:

Here’s the problem: when you can stack multiple types of conditions with high condition damage, the damage per tick becomes overwhelming.

And by how many attacks were you hit to get all those conditions?

Exedore.6320:

Instead of being attrition-based or supplementary, condition damage is doing more than power-based damage in short time periods.

I have yet to see this.

Further, condition damage is driven by one stat, compared to three for power damage.

How can you claim that when you say that traits and sigils are a problem which are driven by precision???

Exedore.6320:

Power damage is further affected by toughness, the protection boon, and other direct damage reduction skills and traits.

Can you say such direct damage reduction skill (I’m quite curious)? Conditions on the other hand are affected by cleanses and – condition duration.

All combined, certain builds are doing more damage with conditions while spending a lot of their remaining stat budget on defensive stats.

Can you show me such a build?

Exedore, Your total analysis is factually inaccurate. A single player will not stack more condition damage then a direct damage user will do. They will do equivalent damage. Only the direct damage user will get their damage applied instantly.

FYI, condition duration adds more damage the the condition damage stat. So claiming condi users only need one stat is a irrational statement if you ask me.

Tim.6450:

[snip]

Your standard engineer grenade/bomb build and Dhuumfire terrormancer builds are the biggest offenders. Both have traits that proc bleeding and burning from other attacks. Both have access to poison, burning, and bleeding. Engineer also has confusion baseline. Necromancer has torment baseline and Fear also does damage. In WvW, engineer can get confusion and torment from runes and sigils. Necromancer can’t get good access to confusion yet, but will after the April 15 patch when Fear is considered an interrupt for Perplexity runes.

If you don’t think condition damage deals a lot of damage in a short period, then watch an engineer CC you then load up grenades and bombs on top of you. That gets burning, confusion, bleeding, and poison at least. Counting the CC, that can be done in 4 attacks. Let’s say 5 for the glue bomb. If you try to do anything to stop them, you’re taking over 1000 damage per second. Most of that lasts for well over 5 seconds.

You say that you need precision to power these procs, but that’s not really true. Because many of those traits and sigils have internal cooldowns, a relatively low crit chance is enough to get high uptime from them. If precision was so important, then you wouldn’t see these builds running heavy Dire stats in WvW.

Skills that lower direct damage examples: Signet of Judgment, Stabilized Armor (when stunned). I’m sure I could find more if I spent longer looking.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Exedore, Your total analysis is factually inaccurate. A single player will not stack more condition damage then a direct damage user will do. They will do equivalent damage. Only the direct damage user will get their damage applied instantly.

I must not have been clear. I meant that for the three stats a direct damage user needs, a condition damage user needs one. That means more stat points for a condition damage user can be allocated to defensive stats while maintaining similar damage.

No to it blocking conditions…combine it with condition duration on players, except resilience also lowers damage from conditions. Make it so for every set amount of vitality that goes up, so does resilience. So a vitality stacked player will take less damage from conditions and they won’t last as long. Just as how toughness mitigates DD, vitality would mitigate conditions.

Exedore.6320:

I must not have been clear. I meant that for the three stats a direct damage user needs, a condition damage user needs one. That means more stat points for a condition damage user can be allocated to defensive stats while maintaining similar damage.

No, you were not unclear, you were simply factually incorrect. As condition duration adds 100% damage from any condition damage tic, it is a certain to suggest it is not as important if not certainly more important for damage then condition damage stat.

As well a profession can proc thousands in damage in condition tic, it is extremely important. I did some searching of old forums post and found a breakdown (I originally found it on guru, but it had a link to the post here) that shows anywhere from a 19% overall damage increase, to a 41% damage increase, depending on the profession.

As well I found a fair amount of previous test with a lot of videos and damage comparisons that demonstrated that most professions have higher possible damage out put in soldier gear then dire gear. In the same threads, the knights gear outdid rabid gear as well. And Zerker gear blew away Rampagers. I have not seen a solid comparison with rabid and 100% condition duration though.

Needless to say, all the documented evidence on these forums and Gurus forums show you to be very incorrect in your statements. But that was someone else’s test. What did your test show when you broke them down for a damage comparison? Which professions did you include in your damage comparison with comparable gear? If your test are more up to date or show different numbers, if you post them, I am sure it might change the dynamic of the conversation.

I think op is overthinking things. A few classes have too little condition removal options (Ranger), and a few classes have poorly designed condition mitigation (Engineer/Elementalist with diamondskin/automated response). On the flip side some classes have too much condition pressure, namely Necro/Warrior and Engineer to a degree, and in some cases Perplexity runes throw things out of whack.

The April 15 patch seems like it will be addressing a good chunk of the issues.

dancingmonkey.4902:

No, you were not unclear, you were simply factually incorrect. As condition duration adds 100% damage from any condition damage tic, it is a certain to suggest it is not as important if not certainly more important for damage then condition damage stat.

Condition duration isn’t a stat on gear like power or condition damage. You can’t really compare in that sense. That’s what I was referring to.

The condition duration slots on runes are taking the place of things like boon duration or other special abilities, not raw stats. The major form of condition duration is from traits, which has to be addressed on a case-by-case basis because it’s in different lines on different professions and may or may not be extremely useful. So yes, it’s extremely important, but it’s also rolled into a few small niches; you don’t have to spend 500+ stat points on it and the returns for it are pretty big when you can stack enough of it.

Sarrs.4831:

So basically it’s Aegis except less useful.

No need, conds are balanced as is. L2P issue. Please see the other threads on this subject for more details.

I made a better suggestion a while back. This is too restrictive and similar to Aegis. A boon that reduces the overall damage of conditions would be far more useful but wouldn’t lock out condi users from being able to actually kill people. I made this suggestion along the same lines as adding more conditions as I think the condition meta needs some major work from both the defensive side and offensive.

There is no condition problem, except for burning conditions do way less damage than direct attacks if you consider the effort it takes to apply those.

Just try to get confusion damage even comparable to say thief sword auto attacks or warrior axe attacks, it just is not viable, de facto all conditions just act as a cover for burning in the current “meta”.

Even torment is next to neglectable, since it is disproportionally hard to get stacks of dangerous size.

So just stop wasting your cleanses, and stop wasting light fields.

As to the original post:

This is exactly what I personally despise when it comes to game mechanics. Basically you preemtively apply an immunity which absorbs a given amount uses of skills against you, no matter what.
Instead of actively dealing with the use of certain skills that target you you passively and preemtively counter them.
Personally I think those mechanics are boring and “dump down the game”, an actively used skill should be countered by another actively used skill.
As it stands there are to many powerful defensive boons with way to much uptime in the game which get applied way to frequently and passively.

The only condition problem, that this game have is, that they dont balance separate for every mode.

Conditions being a problem is a premise in your suggestion, but I feel that needs to be verified.

We have two damage types in the game, similar in many ways (blockable, dodgeable, protection via traits, skills and consumables), but I would still say more than 50% of the damage flying around stems from direct damage and not conditions.

I run with several classes, but my condi necro is the only one running without passive condi protection (since they can manipulate conditions actively) which means I’m acutely aware of the conditions I receive, and I use my active condi protection in way less than 50% of the fights.

True… when I need active condi protection, I need it dearly, but it’s still in way less than 50% of the fights.

It is funny how certain professions can dish out more conditions while healing and boon bursting themselves to become more attrition and condition heavy with sustain and direct dps then the one professions that should have those things by default.

then again.. who cares atm.. next week is a whole new ballgame.

There is no condition problem people just want everything especially roamers and duelers. They find it unfair they can roll the direct damage mesmer but lose to the condition based engi or necro.

Lets just get it over with for crying out loud. Nerf all the conditions to oblivion so everyone can be happy solo roaming in WvW with tankier builds then they run now while still doing the same if not more damage.

Then we can watch the forums flood with warrior does to much damage (because he doesn’t run cleansing ire anymore)

The thief doesn’t die(because he is running shadow protector and shadow rejuvenation)

The mesmer doesn’t die(because PU is weak to conditions)

The guardian can’t be killed (because he was weak to enough condition pressure)

The Ele does to much damage and heals to much(cause he doesn’t need as much vit or cleansing water).

Then we nerf all those builds and run around auto attacking each other.

Exedore.6320:

If you don’t think condition damage deals a lot of damage in a short period, then watch an engineer CC you then load up grenades and bombs on top of you. That gets burning, confusion, bleeding, and poison at least. Counting the CC, that can be done in 4 attacks. Let’s say 5 for the glue bomb. If you try to do anything to stop them, you’re taking over 1000 damage per second. Most of that lasts for well over 5 seconds.

So you say this engineer deals 5000 damage with 5 attacks? I tremble in fear already… I do more damage with my mesmer phantasm build (where my main damage comes from phantasms) with 5 auto attacks. Other professions can hit you with 6 or 7k+ direct damage in one attack.

Also the claim, that condition damage builds need only one stat is simply wrong. If you want to maintain strong condition damage, you need condition damage and precision (and duration, gained through taits, gear and food [although I admit, that the 40% condition duration food and the counter food is too much]). Especially the trait Dhuumfire you mentioned. If you run in dire gear, that trait wont trigger reliably. The toughness is a necessity, so you can actually survive until your conditions do their job. It is not a luxury. A glass cannon build doesn’t need that defense, for they can do a lot of damage in a few seconds. And I am not talking about some 5k damage with 5 attacks, but 10K+ damage with 2 or 3 attacks (as I can do with my phantasm glass canon build in WvW roaming, even to those “super tanky” condition users).

Condition damage is fine as it is. I agree that some food needs adaption, but that’s it. There are already many ways to counter act condition damage. But when I see people waste all their cleanses on the first 3 conditions in the fight, then it is clear, why they are losing.

lordhelmos.7623:

INTRO:

Snipped for brevity and not feeling the need to repeat questionable “logic”

Just run Melandru + Lemongrass if you want to roam solo, or learn to build a proper team build in a group.

Oh wait, you don’t want to do that because you’d actually have to choose something other than your preferred build and want to have everything on that one right?

Of course not.

What about just make protection do 33% less condition damage as it does for direct damage?

IcyFlame.9705:

What about just make protection do 33% less condition damage as it does for direct damage?

Because condition damage is one of the ways to get around Protection.

Cogbyrn.7283:

IcyFlame.9705:

What about just make protection do 33% less condition damage as it does for direct damage?

Because condition damage is one of the ways to get around Protection.

And without the ability of conditions to bypass armor and boons; boon spam bunkers becomes the de facto supreme ruler of all pvp formats.

You might think you want that but really….you do not.

Exedore.6320:

Condition duration isn’t a stat on gear like power or condition damage. You can’t really compare in that sense. That’s what I was referring to.

You mean like givers weapons? I have 2 with my character right now. But wait, you swear they don’t exist.

Exedore.6320:

The condition duration slots on runes are taking the place of things like boon duration or other special abilities, not raw stats. The major form of condition duration is from traits, which has to be addressed on a case-by-case basis because it’s in different lines on different professions and may or may not be extremely useful. So yes, it’s extremely important, but it’s also rolled into a few small niches; you don’t have to spend 500+ stat points on it and the returns for it are pretty big when you can stack enough of it.

Ahh, I see. So now, when it doesn’t suit your argument, runes, and sigils are not considered gear. But when your claiming a condi build has access to too any condition types, you were all for demanding that sigils and runes were important. Hmm, it is interesting that you would rather win an argument with bias ans exclusivity, rather then come to terms with what the rest of us have been aware of for a very ling time.

I mean for example, the game, the devs, and the wiki all define condi duration with the same definition as a stat. You can bend a mutate your argument all you wish. It is a defining fact that it is a stat.

Exedore.6320:

If you don’t think condition damage deals a lot of damage in a short period, then watch an engineer CC you then load up grenades and bombs on top of you. That gets burning, confusion, bleeding, and poison at least. Counting the CC, that can be done in 4 attacks. Let’s say 5 for the glue bomb. If you try to do anything to stop them, you’re taking over 1000 damage per second. Most of that lasts for well over 5 seconds.

My warrior does over 1000 DPS with the hammer auto attack in full exotic soldiers gear.

So what you just described as an engineer spamming 5 skills in a kit, that takes up a utility slot, that cost them space for a stun breaker or a condition removal, is the equivalent to a soldier geared warrior with 2 hammers skills, backbreaker and the auto attack.

You are certainly making some good arguments for a need to buff engineers my friend.

I’d be more interested in making Protection decrease condition damage by 30%…

This way the lower HP classes who have more access to protection have a counter that higher HP classes do not really need in the same way.

Swim.6830:

I’d be more interested in making Protection decrease condition damage by 30%…

This way the lower HP classes who have more access to protection have a counter that higher HP classes do not really need in the same way.

Condition damage is specifically designed to be a counter to Protection. I also think HP is a much smaller piece of the puzzle than every other factor in the game (who you are running with, what sort of condi control you bring, how you gear, how well you can heal, what sort of pressure/interrupts/CC you can apply to your opponent, etc.).

I think having an anti condition boon would be cool. I don’t particularly like this idea tho because it’s use would be spammy. You wouldn’t necessarily have to time it well because you can’t fully predict when your opponent is going to put conditions you don’t want on you. (Obviously you don’t want any conditions, but in every situation some are worse than others). I recommend an anti condition duration boon. 10-15% condi duration reduction under the effect of the boon tops. This boon isn’t so OP that the system would need reworking nor is it so strong that condi players will cry. Obviously, this will be very well balanced in wvw, with the insane condi duration foods like Koi cake. In pvp, it should be fine as well, as long as it isn’t like 100% uptime or something stupid. I really like the idea of a very strong boon, such as this, that becomes more and less effective based on skill level (timing).

This boon would be great when timed to weaken a venom thief’s condition burst or even soft cc bursts (cripple etc) in choke points.

MercilessLemurs.7459:

I think having an anti condition boon would be cool. I don’t particularly like this idea tho because it’s use would be spammy. You wouldn’t necessarily have to time it well because you can’t fully predict when your opponent is going to put conditions you don’t want on you. (Obviously you don’t want any conditions, but in every situation some are worse than others). I recommend an anti condition duration boon. 10-15% condi duration reduction under the effect of the boon tops. This boon isn’t so OP that the system would need reworking nor is it so strong that condi players will cry. Obviously, this will be very well balanced in wvw, with the insane condi duration foods like Koi cake. In pvp, it should be fine as well, as long as it isn’t like 100% uptime or something stupid. I really like the idea of a very strong boon, such as this, that becomes more and less effective based on skill level (timing).

Such things already exists but not in the form of boons (look at purging flames) it gives the advantage of preventing of extending/stacking the duration plus it cannot be ripped/corrupted off (what kind of condition would that be by the way?).

The biggest problem: This will hurt power builds a lot more than conditional builds, which makes conditional builds even stronger.

Reason: Conditional build can apply conditions much quickly, so I can cancel the boon by 1 swing of my sword that bleeds, but that’s 1 less bleed stack, so no big deal.

Power build however relying on conditions to apply control, like cripple. But power build can’t re-apply it readily. So any build which such boon, would be able to nullify a lot of soft cc a power build can dish out, which will basically destroy any utility for a power build.

And how does this not further improve the already powerful boon-spamming?

It doesn’t; it just makes another button for people to press on cool-down like all the other boons, or adds to the current rotations.

Plus there would need be additional work to decide what it corrupts into since it would be considered a boon.

I would be all for it on the condition (pun intended) that we introduce Fragility as well. A new condition that deals damage every time a condition is applied or reapplied (except itself), stacking on duration. This is just to keep the corrupting/purifying concept of Corrupt Boon, Elixir C and Contemplation of Purity. And to get a new condi just for the heck of it