Guild Wars 2

TyPin.9860:

As far as I can see it, one complaint can not be easily ignored. The Warrior profession has no trade offs inherent in it’s nature, as I have earlier argued here.

So to counter a warrior, you have to examine the build they use. Hint: Weapons are a good tell already^^ It is true that warriors can build for many things and are probably one of the most versatile professions in the game. Versatile not in role diversity, but in practicality for the different game modes. They are equally versatile as guardians in that sense. However, while in PvP guardians are for example always weak to boon stripping, stealing or even corrupting, a warrior has his weakness in the build that is used.

Hambow or Hammer/GS (as I have experienced today) are horrible fighting thieves with pistol in the off hand. However, with a fast hitting weapon that issue doesn’t become such a problem any more, but you lose the advantages of GS and/or Hammer making you for example loose mobility and very weak against any profession, that can hold you on distance.

The thing is, while this might seem a bit unbalanced on the first glance, it is very easy to see through and doesn’t throw anyone off, who is informed about the most common builds or willing to inform himself. In the end: on equal skill and knowledge level, warriors are very well balanced imho, even without a clear weakness common to all builds.

I respect you for making this post. You don’t stick to the stereotypical argument and welling to give Warrior a try. And after a bit, their weakness is apparent.

IMO this versatility should be exemplified, and not beaten down. So I ask those who calls for nerf or weakness or whatever, instead of asking Anet to limit warrior’s versatility, ask Anet to improve versatility for every profession.

The problem with that, is that it is ecaxtly what everyone has been doing. Yet it appears they only did it for the warrior professions. Which is probably why you see threads with titles exclaiming a belief of Anet having a bias in favor of the profession.

dancingmonkey.4902:

The problem with that, is that it is ecaxtly what everyone has been doing. Yet it appears they only did it for the warrior professions. Which is probably why you see threads with titles exclaiming a belief of Anet having a bias in favor of the profession.

Hmmm I must be reading everything wrong, since all I see is nerf warrior, nerf CI, nerf HS, nerf LB, nerf GS, nerf hammer, nerf Dogged March, nerf stances, nerf……

bigmonto.4215:

nerf warrior, nerf CI, nerf HS, nerf LB, nerf GS, nerf hammer, nerf Dogged March, nerf stances, nerf……

yeah, that would fix the issues with warrior all right… Good list you got there sir

Prysin.8542:

bigmonto.4215:

nerf warrior, nerf CI, nerf HS, nerf LB, nerf GS, nerf hammer, nerf Dogged March, nerf stances, nerf……

yeah, that would fix the issues with warrior all right… Good list you got there sir

If by fix you mean " kill the class" – but that’s what people asking for warrior to be “fixed” want anyway.

It’s much easier to fight a free kill than actually have to improve your game.

Prysin.8542:

bigmonto.4215:

nerf warrior, nerf CI, nerf HS, nerf LB, nerf GS, nerf hammer, nerf Dogged March, nerf stances, nerf……

yeah, that would fix the issues with warrior all right… Good list you got there sir

You do realized that you just proved my point, right?

This is the typical response from this forum…. hmm warrior got a lot of versatility, but few others has it…… wouldn’t it be better in the long run if everyone has it? Nah, let kill the warrior class instead, so no one has any options.

There are no weaknesses. You can watch warriors heal through all the damage you toss at them and then be amazed as they hit you for 13k in a single hit. They can dive into battle, run out of battle, control every fight at their keyboard.

Thief stealth used to be my main problem with the game. That fell to second. There have been too many battles in WvW that have been tons of warriors, hammering through zergs, basically eating all for lunch. The warrior class in total as I have watched it the past 2 months pretty much has me looking for the next game to play.

bigmonto.4215:

You do realized that you just proved my point, right?

This is the typical response from this forum…. hmm warrior got a lot of versatility, but few others has it…… wouldn’t it be better in the long run if everyone has it? Nah, let kill the warrior class instead, so no one has any options.

Actually, posters are just following the devs statements of avoiding the power creep. They have very specifically stated that they will weaken a profession long before they will beef up others.

dancingmonkey.4902:

bigmonto.4215:

You do realized that you just proved my point, right?

This is the typical response from this forum…. hmm warrior got a lot of versatility, but few others has it…… wouldn’t it be better in the long run if everyone has it? Nah, let kill the warrior class instead, so no one has any options.

Actually, posters are just following the devs statements of avoiding the power creep. They have very specifically stated that they will weaken a profession long before they will beef up others.

Versatility =/= Power Creep

The whole point of this game not having a set trinity is so what class you choose decides the flavor of how you do something. Playing one class doesn’t necessarily mean you HAVE to fill a certain role. Sure some classes are better at some things than other classes, but there are many roles that can be filled equally well by multiple classes.

• Most classes have some sort of Power-Based DPS build

• Many classes can run a condition build

• Around half can play some sort of bunker even if Guardian is the best at mid bunk. Those other classes however can gain either greater control or better offensive power making them good home bunkers

• Almost all classes can run some sort of support whether it be shouts that heal and remove conditions or stealing boons and giving them to allies

Warrior falls into most of those categories but never all in one build. The problem is that there are several classes that severely lack that versatility. Warrior is the most well-designed of all the professions if you ask me. No matter what you want to do chances are there’s a build for it. It may not be the BEST option but chances are there’s still a place for it somewhere in the game. A Guardian is going to have more sustain but a Warrior can give some sustain in addition to a ton of control and condi removal. A Necro or Engi will provide better AoE conditions but a Warrior can focus down one target with tons of bleeds (and then cry when they meet a DS Ele).

You can see this design philosophy with pretty much all the classes, it’s just that some are too weak to bother using. Rather than tearing one class down I think most Non-Warrior players would rather see themselves get more options.

I also find those saying “I can beat Warriors easily (this is an attempt to avoid being told to l2p) but they should totally nerf XYZ because it’s OP” to be pretty funny.

Another thing I’ve been saying for a while. Most of the time when something in this game appears to be OP it’s due to the design of the game mode itself and not the class in question. High sustain and AoE are always going to be strong when PvP is designed around fighting on tiny circles and one person can deny a cap. Stacking food and other buffs that give flat increases are always going to be strong on classes that already have high base access whatever it is the buff is improving.

Play a god danmed warrior and shut up.

BurrTheKing.8571:

dancingmonkey.4902:

bigmonto.4215:

You do realized that you just proved my point, right?

This is the typical response from this forum…. hmm warrior got a lot of versatility, but few others has it…… wouldn’t it be better in the long run if everyone has it? Nah, let kill the warrior class instead, so no one has any options.

Actually, posters are just following the devs statements of avoiding the power creep. They have very specifically stated that they will weaken a profession long before they will beef up others.

Versatility =/= Power Creep

The whole point of this game not having a set trinity is so what class you choose decides the flavor of how you do something. Playing one class doesn’t necessarily mean you HAVE to fill a certain role. Sure some classes are better at some things than other classes, but there are many roles that can be filled equally well by multiple classes.

• Most classes have some sort of Power-Based DPS build

• Many classes can run a condition build

• Around half can play some sort of bunker even if Guardian is the best at mid bunk. Those other classes however can gain either greater control or better offensive power making them good home bunkers

• Almost all classes can run some sort of support whether it be shouts that heal and remove conditions or stealing boons and giving them to allies

Warrior falls into most of those categories but never all in one build. The problem is that there are several classes that severely lack that versatility. Warrior is the most well-designed of all the professions if you ask me. No matter what you want to do chances are there’s a build for it. It may not be the BEST option but chances are there’s still a place for it somewhere in the game. A Guardian is going to have more sustain but a Warrior can give some sustain in addition to a ton of control and condi removal. A Necro or Engi will provide better AoE conditions but a Warrior can focus down one target with tons of bleeds (and then cry when they meet a DS Ele).

You can see this design philosophy with pretty much all the classes, it’s just that some are too weak to bother using. Rather than tearing one class down I think most Non-Warrior players would rather see themselves get more options.

I also find those saying “I can beat Warriors easily (this is an attempt to avoid being told to l2p) but they should totally nerf XYZ because it’s OP” to be pretty funny.

Another thing I’ve been saying for a while. Most of the time when something in this game appears to be OP it’s due to the design of the game mode itself and not the class in question. High sustain and AoE are always going to be strong when PvP is designed around fighting on tiny circles and one person can deny a cap. Stacking food and other buffs that give flat increases are always going to be strong on classes that already have high base access whatever it is the buff is improving.

I agree with this and I think thats where the problem may lie. Warriors can run so many vastly different builds, while most other classes are more restricted in their viable choices. Its just that the other classes tend to share a common weakness based on their class regardless of build, while for warrior, this is not the case, as each different build may have a different weakness, and those weaknesses may not be as pronounced or exploitable as one’s that are common to every memeber of a class. As an example, necro’s are basically always CC weak and eles and gaurdians are almost always weak to boon theft/removal/corruption. Warriors lack an obvious weakness, even if a “hidden” one for their specific build exists, and I think that is a huge problem. It makes it overly easy for bad players to do well with warrior because their weakness is kept secret, which can make great players a bit too strong.

This can be counteracted with lots and lots of research into this class, but thats still more effort spent countering one class that lacks obvious weaknesses, whearas this information is more readily available for the other professions.

simple solution, give other professions more viable builds.

Ibbydibby.1238:

The warrior class in total as I have watched it the past 2 months pretty much has me looking for the next game to play.

If all of you did that, this forum would clean up nicely.

In short words…

Warrior’s pos is that it can be traited to do almost whatever you like.

Warrior’s con is that they can’t do all of these at the same time.

I rarely post on these forums but I read then quite more often. People, when are referring to warr, they tend to say that they got 30k hp, 3000 armor, deal a good 10k dmg, while are almost imune to CC and conditions…

No one seems to mention that no warrior can do all these at the same time. For example, if you go 30k hp, you will either lacking armor or damage. If you spec for the notorious Direct/Condition Dmg immunity (through zerker stance and endure pain) you will do so for only 10s at best while being vulnerable for another 50s.

You just need to understand the weaknesses of each build and know what to expect when you see the warrior’s weapon set. One con that is common to most builds is the skill cooldowns (in lesser extend to shout builds). Try to force a warrior to use their skills in vain (be it condi cleanse, be it stability or whatever) and they will be vulnerable long enough for you to counter attack. Most warrior builds after trying to burst you down need to go on defense till their skills charge back.

To receive more specific advice you need to provide more specific info (as what build in paticular you want to counter).

The problems with warriors being OP started with that patch that doubled HS passive, buffed adrenal health and introduced cleansing ire and berserker stance condition immunity.

2 out of 4 would have been enough probably, but they got all 4. So they kind of toned it down, but its far from enough.

HOWEVER!!!! Warrior is well designed, and the imbalance is only within numbers which can be tweaked. So, in the long term, balancing warriors is an easy task, even if it will take some time due to the kittened balance patch release cycle.

The major problems of the game come with some silly design choices. Like stealth, thief initiative no CD skills, ranger pets and so on. To fix these things, irrelevant if they are OP or UP will take considerable effort, which I do not thin ANet will put in.

First I want to thank everyone who took part in this discussion. And I am glad that the discussion stayed civil except for the occasional troll, who seem to be a natural feature of forums these days. Also thanks to those who sidetracked for a little while but agreed to come back closer to the topic at hand.

I would like to draw a conclusion at this point after reading all the posts of you guys:

• The warrior profession doesn’t seem to have any trade offs inherent to the profession, which would be consistent in the majority of the possible builds.
• However there are most certainly trade offs in the build that is used at a time.
• To counter a warrior requires to understand this build.

This puts the warrior in a unique spot, for all the other professions have usually commonly shared weaknesses shared by most of their respective builds. It is still important to note, that this doesn’t make the warrior profession overpowered. However, it makes it a bit harder to counter a warrior, because it requires some more knowledge of the warrior profession and their different builds’ probabilities than is needed to know about other professions. In reality this is but reduced to a limited number of builds, who are most commonly used. Would you guys agree with this assessment so far?

Along with this comes the warriors role and play diversity. This diversity is not shared with all the other professions, who often have to stick to a certain role in the different game modes PvE, PvP and WvW to have a viable build. Accepting this issue leads to certain questions:

• Should warrior versatility (and equally versatile professions) be limited, resulting in a commonly shared weakness over the professions’ builds;
• or should the versatility of other professions be boosted, so that they profession can fulfill as many different roles as the warrior (and equally versatile professions) and resulting in a softening of the respective profession weaknesses in different builds?
• Or is it okay as it is? Should the warrior (and equally versatile professions) be able to take more roles as most other professions?

build diversity is always something positive to strive for. the more viable builds that exist, the greater the number of potential builds become available to you. since you naturally create new builds to counter others.

warriors along with thieves have the greatest build variety currently, the long term goal should be to bring the other classes up and warriors won’t seem so op.

the short term fix would be to nerf combustive shot in such a way that it isn’t a guaranteed way of clearing 3 condis.

it may very well be true that warriors cannot do all of it at the same time, but when I’m fighting a healing signet warrior whose bar doesn’t change at all, and still deals 2k+ per auto attack, there’s reason enough to make those claims.

Nevermind if it’s not ‘technically true’, in practice it is.

ThiBash.5634:

it may very well be true that warriors cannot do all of it at the same time, but when I’m fighting a healing signet warrior whose bar doesn’t change at all, and still deals 2k+ per auto attack, there’s reason enough to make those claims.

Nevermind if it’s not ‘technically true’, in practice it is.

if a warrior is autoattacking you for 2k+, and you’re unable to out dps the healing signet, then the player is just really good, or you’re really bad, likely both. this has nothing to do with class balance. this is just l2p

TyPin.9860:

I would like to draw a conclusion at this point after reading all the posts of you guys:

• The warrior profession doesn’t seem to have any trade offs inherent to the profession, which would be consistent in the majority of the possible builds.
• However there are most certainly trade offs in the build that is used at a time.
• To counter a warrior requires to understand this build.

This puts the warrior in a unique spot, for all the other professions have usually commonly shared weaknesses shared by most of their respective builds. It is still important to note, that this doesn’t make the warrior profession overpowered. However, it makes it a bit harder to counter a warrior, because it requires some more knowledge of the warrior profession and their different builds’ probabilities than is needed to know about other professions. In reality this is but reduced to a limited number of builds, who are most commonly used. Would you guys agree with this assessment so far?

yes, this is certainly a fair and just assessment.
i agree with what you have written up there.

• Should warrior versatility (and equally versatile professions) be limited, resulting in a commonly shared weakness over the professions’ builds;

no, i disagree.

• or should the versatility of other professions be boosted, so that they profession can fulfill as many different roles as the warrior (and equally versatile professions) and resulting in a softening of the respective profession weaknesses in different builds?

yes, it should have been this way right from the start.
each profession should have more than one viable builds.
the more the merrier.

• Or is it okay as it is? Should the warrior (and equally versatile professions) be able to take more roles as most other professions?

it is only okay if non warrior players stop complaining about warriors.
but that will not happen.

so the best way is to make all other professions have more viable builds too.
more versatility for all professions is always a good thing.

each profession should always be able to do a lot of things, but they cannot do everything at once.

Yep, warriors are really versatile and that is a good thing we should not touch. Other professions should be more like warriors in the way of versatility.

And I think warriors versatility comes from the weapons themselves. We have a lot of weapons with good trait support to them. Every weapon has somekind of trait for it, and then there is couple universal traits that affect multiple weapons. For example Unsuspecting Foe trait works with Mace, Hammer and Shield.

Giving everyone else as many weapons as warrior has would be kinda silly as warrior is ment to be the master of weapons, but giving them a bit more option with specific purposes wouldn’t hurt.

And what would be really cool would be that ANet would bring us some totally new weapons. Off-hand whip for thieves, necros and mesmers? And where is thief main-hand mace?

Weakness of warrior? knowing exactly what you are fighting and easily finding wide open moments to do your own burst on them. There arent any complex warrior builds like other classes so most warriors rely on dodging and using our given abilities.

Still though you can kill a good warrior if you are good just as you can kill a good thief if you are good. This goes for all classes. Warriors are very predictable as we get obvious animations and very bland skills.

Ive played warrior since release and yes they can build into any build and be good at it but they cant be good at everything. I think this should be shared between all classes. I mean sure some builds are better than others but thats the deal on every class.

Ok, warrior is my main and i can tell you few problems with this class. Most of warriors go pure melee so cripple and immobilize works great agains them. Also confusion is good because if you kite warrior he will spam no.1 skill to hit you. Weaknes is really annoying. If he use ranged weapon it will be probably longbow which can put down nice burst: Pin down – combustive shot – arcing arrow. So you should always have 1 condi remover and 1 stun breaker (stun then 100b and whirlwind). If you fight zerk warrior then just kite him and dont get stunned, if it is bunker warrior 1v1 him is annoying and it will take ages.

ThiBash.5634:

it may very well be true that warriors cannot do all of it at the same time, but when I’m fighting a healing signet warrior whose bar doesn’t change at all, and still deals 2k+ per auto attack, there’s reason enough to make those claims.

Nevermind if it’s not ‘technically true’, in practice it is.

If you really check Healing Signet, its just a mean to have some awesome regeneration. Pairing it with Adrenal Health trait and you got an even better regen which is able to deal with pressure damage (constant damage from a condition from example) but it doesn’t heal for that much (about 500hp/sec as Adrenal Health ticks once every 3 secs). Such warrior (that rellies on HS and AH trait) is still succeptible to spike (high) damage.

Not being able to lower the health of such a warrior means your autoattack dmg is below 1k and you are using a too tanky build.

If this ain’t the case, this warrior was probably using a 0/2/6/6/0 Healshout build with either Cleric’s or Settler’s gear which, in turn means, his damage potential is somewhat low (not close to 2k autoattack), he is lacking stability and most likely he is lacking CC. In this case… just walk away. This kind of warr can hardly harm you if you decide to walk away.

Conditions are still good against such warriors. Confusion (rocks on warr), burning and poison are the best damage dealing ones for regen bunker warr.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

it is only okay if non warrior players stop complaining about warriors.
but that will not happen.

Actually, there are a lot of warrior players complaining. Particularly those like myself that have leveled all 8 professions and play them.

I listed to a lot of podcast that in which I repeatedly hear top end tournament playing warriors make similar statements to the complaint here as well.

I think that non-warriors players are not nearly as problematic at warrior exclusive players.

My opinions on the profession are based on my personal experience with all 8 professions in sPvP and WvW.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

it is only okay if non warrior players stop complaining about warriors.
but that will not happen.

so the best way is to make all other professions have more viable builds too.
more versatility for all professions is always a good thing.

each profession should always be able to do a lot of things, but they cannot do everything at once.

Actually there are things about warrior that needs to be re-thinked and possibly changed. My main is warr and I can see some things on warr that I dislike. One example is mobility, in particular mobility from GS skills.

Giving more roles in some professions would be silly. Warrior’s strong point is versatility. Still this versatility comes with some limitations and can’t surpass each class specialization.

General game balance can’t be achieved by simply implementing general rules that affects everyone. You needs to see check and tweak each profession individually.