Guild Wars 2

The ultimate problem is “meta” is a player defined creation.

Sure, changing the game will change the meta, but it has nothing to do with game design.

Players decided they wanted rewards faster, so they could move on to the next dungeon faster, and the best way is to kill faster. Not everyone wishes to partake in that, because getting gold and tokens faster is a valid goal, but it’s not a universal goal. Why should Arenanet change the game based on player goals that they never even intended for? They never decided it was going to be a race. I don’t see a timer. The game doesn’t keep track of times. If you want to, that’s fine, but don’t force them or others to think it is one.

This isn’t player vs player that requires balance.

The zerker meta exists, because it is the collective goal of dedicated players that want to complete the content as efficiently as possible. There is nothing wrong with this, because you can complete the content without following this meta. Anet cannot and should not dictate to the letter how a player should play or what they should find fun, because the collective skill of an entire community is always going to outpace the developers or the mind of a single person. That is why trying to design a new “meta” is simply a foolish aspect. It is no different then trying to whip a strait into obeying you.

Because let’s admit it, a lot of suggestions (including my own) are written from one’s own perspective with one’s own interests in mind. Trying to portray others as selfish (and implying one is on some crusade to make the world better for all— please don’t— a lot of tragedies have been started because of this) is simply dishonest. At least I will admit that when I post, I speak for myself and people that think like me, and do not assume some silent majority is cheering me and treating me as the voice of the unheard(even if they are, duh). One just can’t ignore the impact on others with changes. So, “I play the way I want” until someone interferes with that ability. Until then, I try to respect others as such. Oh, and if the way you want doesn’t happen to be “meta”, well, that’s your own problem if you try to force it into something it was never intended to do.

Instead, game balance needs to be made taking the current meta in concern and finding ways to provide additional challenges. Reinventing the wheel every time a problem is perceived runs is not a good idea.

tl;dr Fix condis

IllegalChocolate.6938:

So my entire post got deleted and I spent a good 3 hours trying to make it sound as clear as good as possible but oh well. Will do my best to rewrite.

Lupi is a difficult one to address so I’ll use a fictional example.

Let’s take a giant hallroom with different levels with various optimal paths forward to a door encased in a force field.

The hallway is not only littered with cover but tons of mobs in strategic positions and an array of siege engines to prevent you from moving forward. You are given a multitude of options to get an EMP det pack to the door whether by escorting an npc around the complex as you kill targets, escort a golem to the door while MICHEAL BAY ensues all around you as support, control, and key damage is required to ensure the safety of the golem, or you can have a player character take up the det pack responsibility and go whichever route, the shortest route(going straight) is the most damaging and dangerous where the tactical routes allow for high precision power to be used effectively and safely while evading siege engine line of fire on occasion. The det pack is sensitive to extreme displacement so teleportation would detonate it prematurely as well as going into downed state.

While using the help of the NPC, players are able to function at full efficiency, at full power, to deliver maximum blows to targets in opposition. The NPC stays safely behind while smart use of cover and objects are a must with melee and ranged interplay. Kill key targets that bar the NPC’s path to get her to move up faster, deal with side snipers before they can land any hits by either killing or using shields. The best defense is a good offense, a key selling point in High Power groups. Tacticool awareness is still a must as cannons and ballistas attempt to peg people out of cover.

While using the golem rig, a force field is generated akin to CoE story. Instead of guns to push things back, you need the best in line of defense and support and damage. The golem’s speed can be throttled with his faster speeds being counter-played by more mobs coming out at a time. In this scenario the players can choose best how to support the golem whether with tons of boons and healing, lots of control, and damage thrown out at key targets that can do devastating damage to the golem. If the golem breaks down? the det pack detonates and the force field drops, everyone gonna die.

Don’t like dealing with NPCs? let’s get a player carrying the detpack. While equipped, players will receive a penalty to speed. The encounter is changed to sort of a psuedo hybrid of both previous examples and spirit watch as more mobs come out at a time as the det pack gets closer to the door(We will keep in mind that the det pack is on the player’s back akin to CM med kit, allowing the quarterback to full function in combat outside of movement speed). Good bunking is required, good cooperation with the team is required as you’ll soon see 2 thieves double back stabbing him while a ranger pelts from the ridge as mobs will be trying to take down your quarter back.

Stealth is given a more in depth active combat approach as the opposition will take active measures on the field when stealth is successfully initiated. Arrow cart shots litter the entire scene, cannons fire randomly everywhere, mobs start to patrol, lay down anti-personal measures to bring players back into combat.

This is a very small example but the idea is there. Of course active balancing of the content needs to happen to ensure that all paths of the fork have competitive clear times in a speed clear environment but I personal think it would be awesome if you start seeing speed clear records knocking each other out and then when you see their approaches they are like completely different with different setups(Ideally).

In this example approach, Full Power Groups are still viable, they are not blown to pieces but the meta mentality changes to accept multiple avenues of approach as long as the dedication is parallel. Intermingling of tactics used in spvp, wvw, and pve can unify the community further(possibly), PvErs are more likely to approach sPvP and be familiar with practices of bunking, smart bursts, and rotations and so forth.

Oh and I just thought of a way that magi stats (Vitality, Precision, Healing Power) can used effectively in a build.

Necromancer: Blood Magic grand master trait, Verata’s aggression. Critical Hits in death shroud will cause AoE healing for party members close to the selected target. Active player healer akin to Trinity in Warframe. Thoughts?

Find out what group comp does it the fastest.
That is the new meta – anything but that and kick.
How is that better than what we have today ?

TheBlackLeech.9360:

-stuff-

First and foremost people don’t stack anymore because FGS has been nerfed. Really there’s little reason to stack now.

Second of all your " one anchor" meta will never happen – because you can’t design an encounter with that kind of pressure on one person. If he’s bad he’ll get kicked instantly.
If he’s good he’ll be wanted in every group.

Welcome to the new trinity.

The only thing I “like” in OP’s suggestion is the needed threshold for conditions…. but I think it would be better to find a solution for condi cap and the too wide distribution of them (well torment, confusion, and fear are fine) rather than over-complexifying the way the stats work…. simple things are always better.

Apart from that if you don’t like the meta, just don’t play it. It’s the magic of GW2, if you don’t play the meta you are not excluded from success of the content, you just make it longer. If you don’t care about the time you take for a dungeon then meta is not mandatory… this is a great improvement compared to other games….

Harper.4173:

Find out what group comp does it the fastest.
That is the new meta – anything but that and kick.
How is that better than what we have today ?

It’s not, that was the point.

The only reasonable reply by a dev is to judge the difficulty of content wanted (by the dev team) versus the current “meta” output (remember, a player-made-up definition) and nerf or buff accordingly.

Then, slowly, buff other stuff to be roughly at the same level.

Ranael.6423:

The only thing I “like” in OP’s suggestion is the needed threshold for conditions…. but I think it would be better to find a solution for condi cap and the too wide distribution of them (well torment, confusion, and fear are fine) rather than over-complexifying the way the stats work…. simple things are always better.

Apart from that if you don’t like the meta, just don’t play it. It’s the magic of GW2, if you don’t play the meta you are not excluded from success of the content, you just make it longer. If you don’t care about the time you take for a dungeon then meta is not mandatory… this is a great improvement compared to other games….

Condition cap isn’t relevant in the discussion of why you don’t see condition builds in dungeons. The condition cap will only become relevant when we hit the point that condition damage is part of the meta and multiple people want to play condi in one group; so basically the condi problem will already be solved before that issue is an issue.

Coldtart.4785:

Dalanor.5387:

Coldtart.4785:

PvE is incapable of ever requiring skill so it’s pointless to change it.

Which team did you participate in the most recent dungeon tournaments?

Did any of those players have to play mindgames against the AI?

PvP is beating balanced players that have their own mind
PvE is beating mechanics more powerful than yourself

You can take your PvP team into Twilight Arbor’s Aether path and see how well you do.

I’m no dungeon runner, mind you, but respect other game modes.

Carighan.6758:

Harper.4173:

Find out what group comp does it the fastest.
That is the new meta – anything but that and kick.
How is that better than what we have today ?

It’s not, that was the point.

The only reasonable reply by a dev is to judge the difficulty of content wanted (by the dev team) versus the current “meta” output (remember, a player-made-up definition) and nerf or buff accordingly.

Then, slowly, buff other stuff to be roughly at the same level.

When the devs designed the original dungeons and fractals two years ago they couldn’t have expected them to still be difficult or challenging to experienced players two years down the road. So your whole premise of what they envisioned when they designed it and what the meta looks like 2 years and tens of thousands of runs by the community later is drastically flawed.

Carighan.6758:

Harper.4173:

Find out what group comp does it the fastest.
That is the new meta – anything but that and kick.
How is that better than what we have today ?

It’s not, that was the point.

The only reasonable reply by a dev is to judge the difficulty of content wanted (by the dev team) versus the current “meta” output (remember, a player-made-up definition) and nerf or buff accordingly.

Then, slowly, buff other stuff to be roughly at the same level.

Yes and how much development time will you waste with that?

Ultimately you can’t really make 2-3 ways of doing the same content that are equal in both difficulty and time requirement.

Unless you put in incredibly large amounts of time into doing that. Which is not really worth it.

Put half that time into new armor and weapon skins – release on the gem store and profit.

There will always be a meta – dictated by faster clear times or ease of execution. You won’t be able to make 2-3-4 methods of doing the same content the meta because the meta by definition represents one way that’s chosen by the community to do the content over all other ways.

Yes but by that logic, why waste more dev team (see upcoming PvP patch) on sPvP? It’s not going to buy gem store armour any time soon, so really, wasted time. Release more LS content instead which ties into gem store purchases. Profit.

Plus, WvW players can use their character fully, so you can sell them more gem store stuff they can flaunt in WvW. Profit!

hybrid.5027:

Condition cap isn’t relevant in the discussion of why you don’t see condition builds in dungeons. The condition cap will only become relevant when we hit the point that condition damage is part of the meta and multiple people want to play condi in one group; so basically the condi problem will already be solved before that issue is an issue.

Well I thought it was a general PVE discussion not only dungeons. In open world it is a bit frustrating to bring a lot of condi and to see that they barely tick on the boss. I agree that in dungeons, if you pug and few people run condi builds and in guild I always ask before starting if anyone play condi. If nobody does I like to do it with my thief or necro. The same goes with support character, you can bring one if unsure of how the other will play but 2 of them will make the dungeon really long. Ofc I don’t speak about SC since I never tried them.

Harper.4173:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

-stuff-

First and foremost people don’t stack anymore because FGS has been nerfed. Really there’s little reason to stack now.

Second of all your " one anchor" meta will never happen – because you can’t design an encounter with that kind of pressure on one person. If he’s bad he’ll get kicked instantly.
If he’s good he’ll be wanted in every group.

Welcome to the new trinity.

People don’t stack anymore? LOL

That is just a blatant lie.

Also, I’m happy you can predict the future.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Harper.4173:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

-stuff-

First and foremost people don’t stack anymore because FGS has been nerfed. Really there’s little reason to stack now.

Second of all your " one anchor" meta will never happen – because you can’t design an encounter with that kind of pressure on one person. If he’s bad he’ll get kicked instantly.
If he’s good he’ll be wanted in every group.

Welcome to the new trinity.

People don’t stack anymore? LOL

That is just a blatant lie.

Also, I’m happy you can predict the future.

I was wondering about that too.

I mean, people were stacking before FGS was even a huge thing…

There’s a distinct difference between the meta, and what PuG’s do. I still see the occasional 4 Warr + 1 Mesmer posts. Also, there’s stacking to share buffs and boons, and stacking by a wall to take advantage of FGS. I suspect it’s the latter that was referred to.

IndigoSundown.5419:

There’s a distinct difference between the meta, and what PuG’s do. I still see the occasional 4 Warr + 1 Mesmer posts. Also, there’s stacking to share buffs and boons, and stacking by a wall to take advantage of FGS. I suspect it’s the latter that was referred to.

I’m going to assume anytime someone says “Stack here” in a dungeon is referred to as stacking.

Leo G.4501:

IndigoSundown.5419:

There’s a distinct difference between the meta, and what PuG’s do. I still see the occasional 4 Warr + 1 Mesmer posts. Also, there’s stacking to share buffs and boons, and stacking by a wall to take advantage of FGS. I suspect it’s the latter that was referred to.

I’m going to assume anytime someone says “Stack here” in a dungeon is referred to as stacking.

That’s not all stacking though. Stacking is all gathering together. What you describe basically sounds like a LoS spot, which is a bit different, you stack to LOS but you don’t necessarily LOS when you’re stacking.

We stack at lupi on projectile reflects, but we don’t LOS lupi. just an example.

SEp1 we can pull the 3 golems together and stack to kill them, or we can stack in the corner to LoS them and drop a reflect and kill them that way. In both situations we’re stacking but one of them is using LOS and we’re saying “stack here” before hand.

We do a lot less LoSing now without FGS meta, but there is still a lot of stacking as it’s simply common sense to all get inside a wall of reflection, or gather up for cleaving, etc.

I will state that the correct definition of meta is not a singular absolute, but rather a collaboration of information, data, which can overall “dictate” a direction or just be a consensus. It can be a collaborative that CAN state that this is the most optimal way with its collection of data, but can also say otherwise, or it can well be a summary of whatever it wants to be, is your definition the definition of the “zerker meta”? you are the one in practice of it, so I’ll let you answer that question. I seek to change the prime directive of the PvE meta mentality by improving its “horizontal” tolerance of course the target root of the challenge being how PvE content is balanced in the first place. My goal is to not really take anything away from anybody, but rather provide an environment where a grander meaningful selection of horizontal choices can exist. There are many games that do this successfully without introducing a hard trinity. A community meta that is much more tolerant can be much more appealing to more foreign bodies (unless your prime directive is a 0 tolerancy), thus more people likely to intermingle and play while potentially and hopefully constantly improving and lasting. Yes many of my ideas are very extreme and intricate but they are possible, the core AI improvements would have lasting power that although is more work now could mean less work later if used in a modular manner.

I see that my encounter scenario was taken very literally and was not in favor, this is my fault, let’s try another one.

Another way of thinking of my balancing desires can be portrayed in other games that at most have a softer meta mentality, shooters.

Warframe feels like a perfect example of a small ideal in my bigger picture that I wish to portray. In warframe we have high armor to low armor to defensive to pure offensive archetypes. In this game mixing and matching even for the sake of high efficiency farming is interchangeable (do to how dark sectors and survival missions work as far as farming and grinding loot). Many of the top players will tell you that it’s not mandatory to utilize a rigid “trinity” setup as because of how the content is designed, this is actually quite true. The systems in place because of the high skill ceiling allow everyone countless possibilities of interchangeability. Yes there is a prime directive on how to mod specific guns in the same way that I wouldn’t spec into a rabid build warrior greatsword. The main selling point here is that there is much more tolerance for the selection as everyone is capable of everything and can specialize in many directions and statistical strengths with their own weaknesses but bring unique tools akin to them. (efficiency nova, rage nova, and negative nova builds really speaks to me here)

The reason as to why I feel like this is a perfect example is the fact that everyone is still required to have an active role in combat (Unless you’re nekros spamming desecrate on top of an energy consumable), even support archetypes like trinity who is based on pure replenishment is required to engage in combat aggressively (for the sake of killing efficiency).

Is one warframe necessarily better than the other? I guess that depends on how good we are at that point. Of course this is only doable do to the fact that anyone can use any weapon setup but the idea here is to implement content that allows those interchangeable avenues of approach, to have more of a variety of soft counter play, and maybe sometimes hard counter play that pegs and challenges different extremities or balances and causes delays or opportunities of certain death accordingly.

These are more of example ideas to help portray my perspective on the future and I hope the overall ideas gets across rather than the literal example.

Then again, the reason as to why warframe’s meta mentality is much more tolerant is more due to the fact that the real cash money is in game modes where speed running is not possible (dark sector defense, survival, interception, survival classic, excavation, etc.) and no one really cares about the missions that can be speed run except for alert rounds where you get bonus rewards for doing this missions(and orokin extermination voids). Perhaps that’s the real key here? Come to think of it, Silverwastes is already doing this in a manner but in a high population format so the impact of different builds is diluted. Anyone else mad that you can’t get multiple glove sets through consecutive story play? I know I am.

I can imagine a scenario play out like gears of war where you have power being dished out, then a real heavy hitter comes out of no where and breaks front line, I feel high toughness specs can sort of play a tactical role like that.

The way toughness and vitality currently work are at odds with the current game design by way of acting as health and armour modifiers. They should have been ability modifiers instead, with health and armour being relegated to the care of only your base class stats.

As long as there are a gear stats that actually improve your abilities and other gear stats that have no interaction with your abilities, the meta will always exist in the state it is now, at best growing to encompass conditions in pve once Anet figures out how to fix that. All the content in the world will not change the attractiveness of damage versus other stats as long as the base mechanics remain this way. The path of mastery remains the same.

Forcing people to change to tankier gear with harder content just means they are artificially sidestepping the difficulty, something that should be determined by your ability, not by gear. They can start getting used to it bit by bit this way until they shed their weakness, but it again relegates certain stats to stop gaps, which should be something determined by gear tier, not type.

This is why the focus of stats should have been exclusively on the effectiveness of one’s abilities, rather than base stat numbers, with abilities being modified to accomodate these changes. Power does this just fine with attack damage, even counting your most basic weapon attack, and condition damage has this but is screwed over by game mechanics. You have all of these stats avialable which exist only to improve the effectiveness of your abilities.

Except for toughness and vitality.

What mechanics in the game are left decoupled from armour stats as well? Boons(outside regeneration), blocks, and non-damaging conditions.

Boons, blocks and non-damage conditions? Modifiable extra effects coming from traits and runes, which is good.

Same effectiveness no matter what gear you put on? Not inherently bad, except Anet needs to commit to this idea for the game instead of giving the impression you can actually use the non-damage focused gear types to contribute towards an alternate path of mastery.

Damage is the thing you can improve with gear, so damage is “king”, because all that other stuff you can do to support your team? Still capable even in berserker gear, while still giving out decent damage. No significant give-and-take. Just trait up, get your sigils, get your runes, and destroy the enemy.

I personally find it shallow, but many people do enjoy the game exactly because there is no fuss about gear and ability effectiveness in this regard. A fundamental change to the game’s whole system would be necessary to actually promote true diversity, so it really boils down to a take it or leave it situation.

I think something more akin to Guild Wars 1’s ability points would have worked even better, but I am trying to make an argument with consideration to the system which is currently in place. And I do not believe for a moment that change of this magnitude will ever come to the game, though I do hope for some improvement somewhere that will catch my interest again one day, at least with better encounter design and content in general.

Carighan.6758:

Yes but by that logic, why waste more dev team (see upcoming PvP patch) on sPvP? It’s not going to buy gem store armour any time soon, so really, wasted time. Release more LS content instead which ties into gem store purchases. Profit.

Plus, WvW players can use their character fully, so you can sell them more gem store stuff they can flaunt in WvW. Profit!

Because they hope through sPvP and tournaments to make the game more popular. More popular means more sales.

They’re trying to cater to the only audience that can really help promote and sell the game.

Every action they take has profit in mind. Short term or long term. Don’t fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Harper.4173:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

-stuff-

First and foremost people don’t stack anymore because FGS has been nerfed. Really there’s little reason to stack now.

Second of all your " one anchor" meta will never happen – because you can’t design an encounter with that kind of pressure on one person. If he’s bad he’ll get kicked instantly.
If he’s good he’ll be wanted in every group.

Welcome to the new trinity.

People don’t stack anymore? LOL

That is just a blatant lie.

Also, I’m happy you can predict the future.

I can predict what will happen because I know how I think and how people like me think. This is what will define the new meta because metas are set by those “elitist jerks” which I happen to be a part of.
I know what I’ll be doing and it’s a pretty safe bet most of the other elitists will do the same.

Also people who are clueless still stack – but most of them didn’t even know why they stacked in the first place.

The point is people who know the game realize there’s little point in stacking anymore.

Harper.4173:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Harper.4173:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

-stuff-

First and foremost people don’t stack anymore because FGS has been nerfed. Really there’s little reason to stack now.

Second of all your " one anchor" meta will never happen – because you can’t design an encounter with that kind of pressure on one person. If he’s bad he’ll get kicked instantly.
If he’s good he’ll be wanted in every group.

Welcome to the new trinity.

People don’t stack anymore? LOL

That is just a blatant lie.

Also, I’m happy you can predict the future.

I can predict what will happen because I know how I think and how people like me think. This is what will define the new meta because metas are set by those “elitist jerks” which I happen to be a part of.
I know what I’ll be doing and it’s a pretty safe bet most of the other elitists will do the same.

Also people who are clueless still stack – but most of them didn’t even know why they stacked in the first place.

The point is people who know the game realize there’s little point in stacking anymore.

So you are changing what you said to you don’t understand why people stack in corners?

I’m pretty sure that even the worst pugs from the bottom of the barrel realize that enemies you are in combat with who can’t see you will all run to a spot where they can see you to continue fighting.

It is called LoS, and pretending like you don’t know what I’m talking about only makes your responses even more insulting to your intelligence.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Harper.4173:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Harper.4173:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

-stuff-

First and foremost people don’t stack anymore because FGS has been nerfed. Really there’s little reason to stack now.

Second of all your " one anchor" meta will never happen – because you can’t design an encounter with that kind of pressure on one person. If he’s bad he’ll get kicked instantly.
If he’s good he’ll be wanted in every group.

Welcome to the new trinity.

People don’t stack anymore? LOL

That is just a blatant lie.

Also, I’m happy you can predict the future.

I can predict what will happen because I know how I think and how people like me think. This is what will define the new meta because metas are set by those “elitist jerks” which I happen to be a part of.
I know what I’ll be doing and it’s a pretty safe bet most of the other elitists will do the same.

Also people who are clueless still stack – but most of them didn’t even know why they stacked in the first place.

The point is people who know the game realize there’s little point in stacking anymore.

So you are changing what you said to you don’t understand why people stack in corners?

I’m pretty sure that even the worst pugs from the bottom of the barrel realize that enemies you are in combat with who can’t see you will all run to a spot where they can see you to continue fighting.

It is called LoS, and pretending like you don’t know what I’m talking about only makes your responses even more insulting to your intelligence.

Gs5 and focus pull; learn to use those.

Jerus.4350:

Leo G.4501:

IndigoSundown.5419:

There’s a distinct difference between the meta, and what PuG’s do. I still see the occasional 4 Warr + 1 Mesmer posts. Also, there’s stacking to share buffs and boons, and stacking by a wall to take advantage of FGS. I suspect it’s the latter that was referred to.

I’m going to assume anytime someone says “Stack here” in a dungeon is referred to as stacking.

That’s not all stacking though. Stacking is all gathering together. What you describe basically sounds like a LoS spot, which is a bit different, you stack to LOS but you don’t necessarily LOS when you’re stacking.

We stack at lupi on projectile reflects, but we don’t LOS lupi. just an example.

SEp1 we can pull the 3 golems together and stack to kill them, or we can stack in the corner to LoS them and drop a reflect and kill them that way. In both situations we’re stacking but one of them is using LOS and we’re saying “stack here” before hand.

We do a lot less LoSing now without FGS meta, but there is still a lot of stacking as it’s simply common sense to all get inside a wall of reflection, or gather up for cleaving, etc.

It is common sense in a…sense…but for a game touted for its active combat with hits on the go, moving outside of the reach of attacks and all that jazz that makes GW2 ‘unique’ and ‘special’, it’s a bummer and a shame that nearly every encounter, big or small, resorts the the exact same tactics with perhaps a slight change to which skills you use first. GW2 doesn’t have enough skills to do that and still not be boring after the 300th time you do that a day.

Leo G.4501:

Jerus.4350:

Leo G.4501:

IndigoSundown.5419:

There’s a distinct difference between the meta, and what PuG’s do. I still see the occasional 4 Warr + 1 Mesmer posts. Also, there’s stacking to share buffs and boons, and stacking by a wall to take advantage of FGS. I suspect it’s the latter that was referred to.

I’m going to assume anytime someone says “Stack here” in a dungeon is referred to as stacking.

That’s not all stacking though. Stacking is all gathering together. What you describe basically sounds like a LoS spot, which is a bit different, you stack to LOS but you don’t necessarily LOS when you’re stacking.

We stack at lupi on projectile reflects, but we don’t LOS lupi. just an example.

SEp1 we can pull the 3 golems together and stack to kill them, or we can stack in the corner to LoS them and drop a reflect and kill them that way. In both situations we’re stacking but one of them is using LOS and we’re saying “stack here” before hand.

We do a lot less LoSing now without FGS meta, but there is still a lot of stacking as it’s simply common sense to all get inside a wall of reflection, or gather up for cleaving, etc.

It is common sense in a…sense…but for a game touted for its active combat with hits on the go, moving outside of the reach of attacks and all that jazz that makes GW2 ‘unique’ and ‘special’, it’s a bummer and a shame that nearly every encounter, big or small, resorts the the exact same tactics with perhaps a slight change to which skills you use first. GW2 doesn’t have enough skills to do that and still not be boring after the 300th time you do that a day.

You’re right what the game needs is one person to “tank” the boss while one person drops water fields and blast finishers on him and 2 of the other pew pew with their k-rad leet ranged dps builds and one person King DPS goes in and melees the boss opposite the tank. That guy will have to bring skills that force the boss to aggro the tank if he ever turns around to face him.

I think this is a good start yes?

Oh I have another idea!

How about we have 5 people playing whatever random no-thought-put-into-it builds fighting bosses in empty open rooms and they around around erratically like headless chickens spamming their skills and eventually boring the boss to death after a 5 minute fight to do 100,000 total damage. In case the boss ever does an attack at them luckily they will be able to easily avoid it because they are safely at 1200 range. This also sounds quite riveting.

I think either of these options are good.

Almost as good as the stack in the corner cookie-cutter melee meta.

hybrid.5027:

Leo G.4501:

Jerus.4350:

Leo G.4501:

IndigoSundown.5419:

There’s a distinct difference between the meta, and what PuG’s do. I still see the occasional 4 Warr + 1 Mesmer posts. Also, there’s stacking to share buffs and boons, and stacking by a wall to take advantage of FGS. I suspect it’s the latter that was referred to.

I’m going to assume anytime someone says “Stack here” in a dungeon is referred to as stacking.

That’s not all stacking though. Stacking is all gathering together. What you describe basically sounds like a LoS spot, which is a bit different, you stack to LOS but you don’t necessarily LOS when you’re stacking.

We stack at lupi on projectile reflects, but we don’t LOS lupi. just an example.

SEp1 we can pull the 3 golems together and stack to kill them, or we can stack in the corner to LoS them and drop a reflect and kill them that way. In both situations we’re stacking but one of them is using LOS and we’re saying “stack here” before hand.

We do a lot less LoSing now without FGS meta, but there is still a lot of stacking as it’s simply common sense to all get inside a wall of reflection, or gather up for cleaving, etc.

It is common sense in a…sense…but for a game touted for its active combat with hits on the go, moving outside of the reach of attacks and all that jazz that makes GW2 ‘unique’ and ‘special’, it’s a bummer and a shame that nearly every encounter, big or small, resorts the the exact same tactics with perhaps a slight change to which skills you use first. GW2 doesn’t have enough skills to do that and still not be boring after the 300th time you do that a day.

You’re right what the game needs is one person to “tank” the boss while one person drops water fields and blast finishers on him and 2 of the other pew pew with their k-rad leet ranged dps builds and one person King DPS goes in and melees the boss opposite the tank. That guy will have to bring skills that force the boss to aggro the tank if he ever turns around to face him.

I think this is a good start yes?

Oh I have another idea!

How about we have 5 people playing whatever random no-thought-put-into-it builds fighting bosses in empty open rooms and they around around erratically like headless chickens spamming their skills and eventually boring the boss to death after a 5 minute fight to do 100,000 total damage. In case the boss ever does an attack at them luckily they will be able to easily avoid it because they are safely at 1200 range. This also sounds quite riveting.

I think either of these options are good.

So which of those options are you choosing over the repeat farmfest where bosses are just too dumb to counter anything and simply die within seconds? To me, not enough discussion exists about ideas to help compared to the whines and cries about rewards/hour.

hybrid.5027:

You’re right what the game needs is one person to “tank” the boss while one person drops water fields and blast finishers on him and 2 of the other pew pew with their k-rad leet ranged dps builds and one person King DPS goes in and melees the boss opposite the tank. That guy will have to bring skills that force the boss to aggro the tank if he ever turns around to face him.

I think this is a good start yes?

Oh I have another idea!

How about we have 5 people playing whatever random no-thought-put-into-it builds fighting bosses in empty open rooms and they around around erratically like headless chickens spamming their skills and eventually boring the boss to death after a 5 minute fight to do 100,000 total damage. In case the boss ever does an attack at them luckily they will be able to easily avoid it because they are safely at 1200 range. This also sounds quite riveting.

I think either of these options are good.

That’s just intentionally bad encounter design used to describe unwanted situations, too vaguely outlined to be of any real value as examples, and cannot be related to any discussion of the flawed mechanics of the game.

You would have to go into more detail as to what mechanics are affecting the game and the bosses in order for these realities to come true, as well as go into more detail as to how the encounter would go to actually show that the encounter would be boring, shallow, unfun, etc. Because when people speak of changing the mechanics of the game, they are also speaking of changing ability interactivity and function along with it.

Simply changing the way stats work does nothing when the way abilities work are left untouched. Again, this is why the game is not likely to change, but if it is to be discussed, consideration for abilities working differently will need to be made.

Croc.5129:

hybrid.5027:

You’re right what the game needs is one person to “tank” the boss while one person drops water fields and blast finishers on him and 2 of the other pew pew with their k-rad leet ranged dps builds and one person King DPS goes in and melees the boss opposite the tank. That guy will have to bring skills that force the boss to aggro the tank if he ever turns around to face him.

I think this is a good start yes?

Oh I have another idea!

How about we have 5 people playing whatever random no-thought-put-into-it builds fighting bosses in empty open rooms and they around around erratically like headless chickens spamming their skills and eventually boring the boss to death after a 5 minute fight to do 100,000 total damage. In case the boss ever does an attack at them luckily they will be able to easily avoid it because they are safely at 1200 range. This also sounds quite riveting.

I think either of these options are good.

That’s just intentionally bad encounter design used to describe unwanted situations, too vaguely outlined to be of any real value as examples, and cannot be related to any discussion of the flawed mechanics of the game.

You would have to go into more detail as to what mechanics are affecting the game and the bosses in order for these realities to come true, as well as go into more detail as to how the encounter would go to actually show that the encounter would be boring, shallow, unfun, etc. Because when people speak of changing the mechanics of the game, they are also speaking of changing ability interactivity and function along with it.

Simply changing the way stats work does nothing when the way abilities work are left untouched. Again, this is why the game is not likely to change, but if it is to be discussed, consideration for abilities working differently will need to be made.

I feel like your sarcasm detection abilities need to be discussed and considered. But one thing I do know is you are quite verbose so we can settle that issue right now.

Bran.7425:

Almost as good as the stack in the corner cookie-cutter melee meta.

Yeah, the melee bosses while using active damage avoidance, relying on team play and coordination of CC and support is really good actually. Thanks for agreeing with me.

hybrid.5027:

Croc.5129:

hybrid.5027:

You’re right what the game needs is one person to “tank” the boss while one person drops water fields and blast finishers on him and 2 of the other pew pew with their k-rad leet ranged dps builds and one person King DPS goes in and melees the boss opposite the tank. That guy will have to bring skills that force the boss to aggro the tank if he ever turns around to face him.

I think this is a good start yes?

Oh I have another idea!

How about we have 5 people playing whatever random no-thought-put-into-it builds fighting bosses in empty open rooms and they around around erratically like headless chickens spamming their skills and eventually boring the boss to death after a 5 minute fight to do 100,000 total damage. In case the boss ever does an attack at them luckily they will be able to easily avoid it because they are safely at 1200 range. This also sounds quite riveting.

I think either of these options are good.

That’s just intentionally bad encounter design used to describe unwanted situations, too vaguely outlined to be of any real value as examples, and cannot be related to any discussion of the flawed mechanics of the game.

You would have to go into more detail as to what mechanics are affecting the game and the bosses in order for these realities to come true, as well as go into more detail as to how the encounter would go to actually show that the encounter would be boring, shallow, unfun, etc. Because when people speak of changing the mechanics of the game, they are also speaking of changing ability interactivity and function along with it.

Simply changing the way stats work does nothing when the way abilities work are left untouched. Again, this is why the game is not likely to change, but if it is to be discussed, consideration for abilities working differently will need to be made.

I feel like your sarcasm detection abilities need to be discussed and considered. But one thing I do know is you are quite verbose so we can settle that issue right now.

It was obviously sarcasm.

I’m just saying it really doesn’t prove any point at all.

Please clarify the purpose of the sarcasm, if you feel it did prove a point of some kind, reveal a truth you wish to share. We are not enemies, we are just random customers of a game discussing mechanics.

hybrid.5027:

Yeah, the melee bosses while using active damage avoidance, relying on team play and coordination of CC and support is really good actually. Thanks for agreeing with me.

hybrid.5027:

I feel like your sarcasm detection abilities need to be discussed and considered. But one thing I do know is you are quite verbose so we can settle that issue right now.

Not sure how you walked into that.

Bran.7425:

hybrid.5027:

Yeah, the melee bosses while using active damage avoidance, relying on team play and coordination of CC and support is really good actually. Thanks for agreeing with me.

hybrid.5027:

I feel like your sarcasm detection abilities need to be discussed and considered. But one thing I do know is you are quite verbose so we can settle that issue right now.

Not sure how you walked into that.

Your post wasn’t sarcasm. It was sounded exactly on point with the others, and fit in with the headless chicken meta crew. If you want it to be effective, you should go over the top with your hyperbole.

Croc.5129:

hybrid.5027:

Croc.5129:

hybrid.5027:

You’re right what the game needs is one person to “tank” the boss while one person drops water fields and blast finishers on him and 2 of the other pew pew with their k-rad leet ranged dps builds and one person King DPS goes in and melees the boss opposite the tank. That guy will have to bring skills that force the boss to aggro the tank if he ever turns around to face him.

I think this is a good start yes?

Oh I have another idea!

How about we have 5 people playing whatever random no-thought-put-into-it builds fighting bosses in empty open rooms and they around around erratically like headless chickens spamming their skills and eventually boring the boss to death after a 5 minute fight to do 100,000 total damage. In case the boss ever does an attack at them luckily they will be able to easily avoid it because they are safely at 1200 range. This also sounds quite riveting.

I think either of these options are good.

That’s just intentionally bad encounter design used to describe unwanted situations, too vaguely outlined to be of any real value as examples, and cannot be related to any discussion of the flawed mechanics of the game.

You would have to go into more detail as to what mechanics are affecting the game and the bosses in order for these realities to come true, as well as go into more detail as to how the encounter would go to actually show that the encounter would be boring, shallow, unfun, etc. Because when people speak of changing the mechanics of the game, they are also speaking of changing ability interactivity and function along with it.

Simply changing the way stats work does nothing when the way abilities work are left untouched. Again, this is why the game is not likely to change, but if it is to be discussed, consideration for abilities working differently will need to be made.

I feel like your sarcasm detection abilities need to be discussed and considered. But one thing I do know is you are quite verbose so we can settle that issue right now.

It was obviously sarcasm.

I’m just saying it really doesn’t prove any point at all.

Please clarify the purpose of the sarcasm, if you feel it did prove a point of some kind, reveal a truth you wish to share. We are not enemies, we are just random customers of a game discussing mechanics.

The point it proves is that all the alternatives proposed thus far are significantly inferior to the mechanics that exist. It’s been settled long before this thread that the way to get bad players to use tankier gear or to require more defensive support in general is to introduce new content that is mechanically complicated. The reason bad players can get away with berserker gear now is because they have had two years to practice running these dungeons and rote learning when to dodge. Give them encounters they haven’t memorized and that will be all the change they need.

Advocating a trinity, soft trinity, or disorganized, passive gameplay (which are the only three options I’ve seen any of the nerf crowd offer) is a terrible solution to a non-problem. I mockingly offered a hyperbolic example of their own arguments so they can hopefully see how outlandish they sound.

Honestly, I think the entire discussion is a joke because it’s just that, a non-problem. This is like a doctor prescribing invasive solutions to illnesses a patient doesn’t have. We don’t have a berserker problem, we have an old content problem.

Leo G.4501:

It is common sense in a…sense…but for a game touted for its active combat with hits on the go, moving outside of the reach of attacks and all that jazz that makes GW2 ‘unique’ and ‘special’, it’s a bummer and a shame that nearly every encounter, big or small, resorts the the exact same tactics with perhaps a slight change to which skills you use first. GW2 doesn’t have enough skills to do that and still not be boring after the 300th time you do that a day.

I finally got my Guard Lupi solo yesterday, let me give you a quick rundown of what you have to do on him. And, this goes for groups and solo.

To start he’s going to give this big huge wave at you, if you don’t dodge it he marks you for a grub spawn, when that grub spawns you get knocked down, and if the grub makes it to Lupi he gets powered up. So first, dodge his wave.

Next He’ll spit out a bunch of locusts, these locust have a very bad attack animation that lets you more or less run back and forth and avoid all damage from them, they have like a half second windup on their attacks. Easily avoided, and if for some reason you can’t blind em, then burn them down. There’s your moving just of of reach dancing around.

Third attack is melee only, he’ll do this really nasty kick with a pretty short animation, again, DODGE! otherwise you get knocked back quite a ways and like 11k+ damage, it’s almost certain death for lower health players if they get hit.

That’s phase 1! only the first 25% , on phase change he’ll mark whoever is closest for a grub, no wave, just someone is getting grubbed. You can deal with this many ways, make sure someone who can handle it is closest, back out beyond the NPC with you, or maybe drop a pet or something underneath him to eat it for you.

After this He’s going to do a really nasty projectile attack that sends things flying everywhere, so many projectiles they exceed the cap on how many red circles are able to be created. So it’s not even as easy as just staying out of those, no you have to be proactive. Either dodge back, wait a quarter second, then dodge back in, as they start in and go out but they do like to target players. Or you can do some combination of dodging and blocking. A good group might utilize reflects and all gather inside that reflect wall or bubble.

Next attack is a big swipe if you’re in melee range, again likely to kill you and it’s 2 parts the second applying bleeding, so even if you use an aegis you’re going to be hurting.

The next is a shadowstep if anyone is at range, this has a stun and damage at the end if the person fails to dodge it.

That’s phase 2, down to 50% now! He’ll do another massive projectile attack on the phase change.

Now comes a big area lifesiphon, dodge, block, whatever you need to do to get out of there and avoid damage, as if you take damage, he’s going to heal.

Now get back in there quick, because in this phase if you’re at range he’ll bubble you, ohh and that’s nasty, you need invuln or stability to get out (or a very well timed dodge+stunbreak). So you have to be quick and stay in melee otherwise… well… you’re going to die.

Next attack is a single target 4 attack channel, if you don’t dodge/block again, probably going to die.

Then comes the one I hate, Frenzied Blast, ohh god it’s terrible, big red circle, and 100 projectiles come flying at you lighting you up, and the best part is there is splash damage, so you can’t count on the red cirlce to be the end of the damage area. Get out of there! Or, toss up a reflection and everyone again, hide inside.

And to end, if you do manage to kill him he’s gonna fall down and knock you back just as one last “screw you”

How is that not active and fun?

If you find that boring… welp… I’ll just have to kindly disagree. And if you really want “dodging” without using dodge (moving to avoid things) look at the Abomination in Arah p2, 90% of that fight is simply doing a waltz with that guy.

Does stack in a corner and faceroll your keyboard work for a lot of content? sure, but that’s the easy content. There’s a reason I almost never do AC, it’s incredibly boring.

hybrid.5027:

Croc.5129:

hybrid.5027:

Croc.5129:

hybrid.5027:

You’re right what the game needs is one person to “tank” the boss while one person drops water fields and blast finishers on him and 2 of the other pew pew with their k-rad leet ranged dps builds and one person King DPS goes in and melees the boss opposite the tank. That guy will have to bring skills that force the boss to aggro the tank if he ever turns around to face him.

I think this is a good start yes?

Oh I have another idea!

How about we have 5 people playing whatever random no-thought-put-into-it builds fighting bosses in empty open rooms and they around around erratically like headless chickens spamming their skills and eventually boring the boss to death after a 5 minute fight to do 100,000 total damage. In case the boss ever does an attack at them luckily they will be able to easily avoid it because they are safely at 1200 range. This also sounds quite riveting.

I think either of these options are good.

That’s just intentionally bad encounter design used to describe unwanted situations, too vaguely outlined to be of any real value as examples, and cannot be related to any discussion of the flawed mechanics of the game.

You would have to go into more detail as to what mechanics are affecting the game and the bosses in order for these realities to come true, as well as go into more detail as to how the encounter would go to actually show that the encounter would be boring, shallow, unfun, etc. Because when people speak of changing the mechanics of the game, they are also speaking of changing ability interactivity and function along with it.

Simply changing the way stats work does nothing when the way abilities work are left untouched. Again, this is why the game is not likely to change, but if it is to be discussed, consideration for abilities working differently will need to be made.

I feel like your sarcasm detection abilities need to be discussed and considered. But one thing I do know is you are quite verbose so we can settle that issue right now.

It was obviously sarcasm.

I’m just saying it really doesn’t prove any point at all.

Please clarify the purpose of the sarcasm, if you feel it did prove a point of some kind, reveal a truth you wish to share. We are not enemies, we are just random customers of a game discussing mechanics.

The point it proves is that all the alternatives proposed thus far are significantly inferior to the mechanics that exist. It’s been settled long before this thread that the way to get bad players to use tankier gear or to require more defensive support in general is to introduce new content that is mechanically complicated. The reason bad players can get away with berserker gear now is because they have had two years to practice running these dungeons and rote learning when to dodge. Give them encounters they haven’t memorized and that will be all the change they need.

Advocating a trinity, soft trinity, or disorganized, passive gameplay (which are the only three options I’ve seen any of the nerf crowd offer) is a terrible solution to a non-problem. I mockingly offered a hyperbolic example of their own arguments so they can hopefully see how outlandish they sound.

Honestly, I think the entire discussion is a joke because it’s just that, a non-problem. This is like a doctor prescribing invasive solutions to illnesses a patient doesn’t have. We don’t have a berserker problem, we have an old content problem.

Well you’re not offering a hyperbolic example of my outlandish solution because you’ve yet to address what i purpose. Your initial response was at me, yes? Granted I like to propose ideas and if discussed, change the idea with the insight from others.

You say it’s a non-problem but people complain about the situation. And it’s not only a few whiners either. Obviously it’s not a non-problem. So do you just ignore it?

hybrid.5027:

Bran.7425:

hybrid.5027:

Yeah, the melee bosses while using active damage avoidance, relying on team play and coordination of CC and support is really good actually. Thanks for agreeing with me.

hybrid.5027:

I feel like your sarcasm detection abilities need to be discussed and considered. But one thing I do know is you are quite verbose so we can settle that issue right now.

Not sure how you walked into that.

Your post wasn’t sarcasm. It was sounded exactly on point with the others, and fit in with the headless chicken meta crew. If you want it to be effective, you should go over the top with your hyperbole.

I need to remember that both simile and subtly are lost one this community.

Looking at the issues under discussion, it seems to me that:

• GW2 is a hybrid game. It’s somewhere between an action game (AG) and an old-style MMO (OSMMO).
• GW2 has a stat set-up like one sees in an OSMMO. In an OSMMO, offensive production is a combination of stats, traits/talents and rotation, with a little positioning (move out of the fire). In an AG, offensive production is largely a function of weapon selection (some weapons are better) and attack up-time via skilled play. GW2 has both stat-based and some attack up-time requirements to produce damage. Rotation is important for things like Might stacking. GW2 also uses boons to increase the damage stats and to aid with up-time (e.g., reflection). Boon-sharing is the biggest teamwork factor in GW2.
• In an OSMMO, defense is largely a function of stats, with limited actions (often, uber-defensive skills on long CD). There are even stats that reduce the possibility of being critically hit. In an AG, defense is largely active. While passive defense exists in GW2, active defense plays a much greater role.

Thus, I can see why GW2 offensive stats affect attack skills and why defensive stats don’t affect defensive skills. It’s because in the GW2 hybrid, offense is more like what happens in an OSMMO and defense is more like an AG.

Bran.7425:

hybrid.5027:

Bran.7425:

hybrid.5027:

Yeah, the melee bosses while using active damage avoidance, relying on team play and coordination of CC and support is really good actually. Thanks for agreeing with me.

hybrid.5027:

I feel like your sarcasm detection abilities need to be discussed and considered. But one thing I do know is you are quite verbose so we can settle that issue right now.

Not sure how you walked into that.

Your post wasn’t sarcasm. It was sounded exactly on point with the others, and fit in with the headless chicken meta crew. If you want it to be effective, you should go over the top with your hyperbole.

I need to remember that both simile and subtly are lost one this community.

Its difficult to identify sarcasm from text. It was however blatantly obvious from hybrids post. Yours looked like a genuine dig at the meta.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Looking at the issues under discussion, it seems to me that:

• GW2 is a hybrid game. It’s somewhere between an action game (AG) and an old-style MMO (OSMMO).
• GW2 has a stat set-up like one sees in an OSMMO. In an OSMMO, offensive production is a combination of stats, traits/talents and rotation, with a little positioning (move out of the fire). In an AG, offensive production is largely a function of weapon selection (some weapons are better) and attack up-time via skilled play. GW2 has both stat-based and some attack up-time requirements to produce damage. Rotation is important for things like Might stacking. GW2 also uses boons to increase the damage stats and to aid with up-time (e.g., reflection). Boon-sharing is the biggest teamwork factor in GW2.
• In an OSMMO, defense is largely a function of stats, with limited actions (often, uber-defensive skills on long CD). There are even stats that reduce the possibility of being critically hit. In an AG, defense is largely active. While passive defense exists in GW2, active defense plays a much greater role.

Thus, I can see why GW2 offensive stats affect attack skills and why defensive stats don’t affect defensive skills. It’s because in the GW2 hybrid, offense is more like what happens in an OSMMO and defense is more like an AG.

Which is why there should defensive ability stats on armour which would affect defensive skills only and leave vitality and armour untouched. GW2 seems to have a slightly schizophernic design in leaving boon intensity, non-damage condition effectiveness, and shields untouched by armour.

If boons, reflections and non-damage conditions were changed to accomodate this varying effectiveness, then wearing offensive gear would actually be a choice with consequences, giving up something in exchange for the power to hit your enemy really, really hard.

Croc.5129:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Looking at the issues under discussion, it seems to me that:

• GW2 is a hybrid game. It’s somewhere between an action game (AG) and an old-style MMO (OSMMO).
• GW2 has a stat set-up like one sees in an OSMMO. In an OSMMO, offensive production is a combination of stats, traits/talents and rotation, with a little positioning (move out of the fire). In an AG, offensive production is largely a function of weapon selection (some weapons are better) and attack up-time via skilled play. GW2 has both stat-based and some attack up-time requirements to produce damage. Rotation is important for things like Might stacking. GW2 also uses boons to increase the damage stats and to aid with up-time (e.g., reflection). Boon-sharing is the biggest teamwork factor in GW2.
• In an OSMMO, defense is largely a function of stats, with limited actions (often, uber-defensive skills on long CD). There are even stats that reduce the possibility of being critically hit. In an AG, defense is largely active. While passive defense exists in GW2, active defense plays a much greater role.

Thus, I can see why GW2 offensive stats affect attack skills and why defensive stats don’t affect defensive skills. It’s because in the GW2 hybrid, offense is more like what happens in an OSMMO and defense is more like an AG.

Which is why there should defensive ability stats on armour which would affect defensive skills only and leave vitality and armour untouched. GW2 seems to have a slightly schizophernic design in leaving boon intensity, non-damage condition effectiveness, and shields untouched by armour.

If boons, reflections and non-damage conditions were changed to accomodate this varying effectiveness, then wearing offensive gear would actually be a choice with consequences, giving up something in exchange for the power to hit your enemy really, really hard.

That is a possible point to adjust. Another might be a change toward action oriented offense where a target is normally in a neutral state (taking normal damage but critical hits do much lower damage) until they change states either through the intervention of players (control type skills could play a part here) or the target puts themselves in such a state by using a strong or special attack which makes them vulnerable or leaves them vulnerable for a time afterwords. In that vulnerable state, the amount of damage they take from crits is multiplied to extreme bursts if you are build toward it. Then the concept turns to biding your time, fleshing out those tougher attacks and then striking hard when vulnerable. The catch would be most of those state changing attacks have to hit something in order to change the target’s state.

On the flip side of the charging coin, defensive utilities such as reflects, invulnerability, blocks, dodges, etc would require some investment to get similar or better functionality than they so now, for instance: you need to invest in a trait or condition boosting stats to weaken the target enough with weakness or blind to survive such his easier; you need vitality if you want more than 1 dodge a min; block only absorbs certain amount of damage dependant on toughness; aegis is the same but reliant on the boon caster’s healing powers; etc etc.

And, that would make things more fun how?

Bringing in full Nomads guardian to do mai trin doesn’t sound fun, it sounds long and tedious.

One of the enjoyable things about the zerk meta is that while you can do it, a little mistake and boom dead. If you simply had to go tanky just to have enough dodges/blocks/etc then a mistake is also less risky and that whole mentality is lost.

Leo G.4501:

That is a possible point to adjust. Another might be a change toward action oriented offense where a target is normally in a neutral state (taking normal damage but critical hits do much lower damage) until they change states either through the intervention of players (control type skills could play a part here) or the target puts themselves in such a state by using a strong or special attack which makes them vulnerable or leaves them vulnerable for a time afterwords. In that vulnerable state, the amount of damage they take from crits is multiplied to extreme bursts if you are build toward it. Then the concept turns to biding your time, fleshing out those tougher attacks and then striking hard when vulnerable. The catch would be most of those state changing attacks have to hit something in order to change the target’s state.

On the flip side of the charging coin, defensive utilities such as reflects, invulnerability, blocks, dodges, etc would require some investment to get similar or better functionality than they so now, for instance: you need to invest in a trait or condition boosting stats to weaken the target enough with weakness or blind to survive such his easier; you need vitality if you want more than 1 dodge a min; block only absorbs certain amount of damage dependant on toughness; aegis is the same but reliant on the boon caster’s healing powers; etc etc.

I understand the reasoning behind the attacker having to hit something to change state, and agree with it as a condition, but in this model do you also include blocks as a hit that counts towards the change in state?

Traits tend to work as effect modifiers for a class’ skills, while gear works to determine the power of a skill. So the value of a non-damage condition can be determined by gear, while traits can be used to further increase their range of use in combat.

As for stats which affect blocks and reflections, I was thinking that the same stat used to increase boon intensity would also be used to govern those abilities. Not only do classes just have different block and reflection capabilities which makes investment in that kind of mitigation wildly varied in levels of enticement for classes, the issue with health and armour in the game is that, without some way to deflect the damage of the enemy on to yourself in a consistant manner, or force the enemy to have to face you, those stats cannot be turned into power for the group, and with the increased importance of investing in your defensive boons and blocks, I feel any more mitigation would diminish the importance of your defensive abilities.

I am also not sure whether stamina regeneration should be something governed by one’s gear. I feel it would be more appropriate for it to remain relegated to the trait lines, with actions performed by the specific class triggering increased stamina regeneration. More room for individuality among the classes there.

hybrid.5027:

The point it proves is that all the alternatives proposed thus far are significantly inferior to the mechanics that exist. It’s been settled long before this thread that the way to get bad players to use tankier gear or to require more defensive support in general is to introduce new content that is mechanically complicated. The reason bad players can get away with berserker gear now is because they have had two years to practice running these dungeons and rote learning when to dodge. Give them encounters they haven’t memorized and that will be all the change they need.

Advocating a trinity, soft trinity, or disorganized, passive gameplay (which are the only three options I’ve seen any of the nerf crowd offer) is a terrible solution to a non-problem. I mockingly offered a hyperbolic example of their own arguments so they can hopefully see how outlandish they sound.

Honestly, I think the entire discussion is a joke because it’s just that, a non-problem. This is like a doctor prescribing invasive solutions to illnesses a patient doesn’t have. We don’t have a berserker problem, we have an old content problem.

Content which requries more defensive support will not matter for depth as long as there is no gear to improve your defensive capability. Traits improve function, gear improves power. Boons, non-damage conditions and blocks are the only things which are completely cut off from being affected by gear, and that is a problem when it comes to gearing.

I don’t care about health and armour. The game increases your health and armour enough through level up to work with, and they never should have been a choice for increase in the first place when no manner of turning those stats into power was included in the game.

I am talking about stats, whatever they would be called, which would increase your boon intensity, your non-damaging conditions effectiveness, and the strength of your blocks and reflections. Stats which would actively increase your control and support abilities just like you have stats which increase the effectiveness of your damage abilities. Your gear should be an indication of the focus you have chosen if it is to matter at all, and the strength of these skills should reflect this. What is the purpose of gear otherwise?

If the only reason gear exists is to let bad players not get destroyed in content, then I see that as being a problem. It’s not a line for improvement, it’s sidestepping the difficulty of the game, which is easy enough as it is.

There should be different tiers of difficulty at high level which must be conquered not by allowing for more mistakes to be made because of gear, but by having the use of your abilities tested. Mistakes are for when you’re learning the content. It’s at that point where you go over what you did wrong, try again, and succeed when you’ve learned well enough.

It would all be a matter of balancing, but as long as this difference in gearing effect holds, there is a limited number of ways in which encounter mechanics can improve the situation.

Philosophically speaking, why should players be rewarded for using passive stats or punished for using active defense? If you have to use defensive stats to survive, managing to survive the encounter is your reward. If you don’t need defensive stats to survive… why use defensive stats? If you have to tack on some functionality to defensive stats as a carrot in order to get players to use them, you clearly aren’t taking the hint.

It sounds like the goal here is buffing defensive stats for the sake of buffing defensive stats. Cool bro, but an easier solution than redesigning how gear works in the game is for people to be adults and realize what the game is and game isn’t and enjoy it for what it is. One solution requires more developer time and effort than you can reasonably expect and the other requires players to put on their big kid pants and repeat the mantra, “experienced players don’t need, and shouldnt want, defensive stats in PvE.” That’s what the game is. Stop bashing your head against the wall trying to change it. Breath deeply and accept the inherent truth, move forward and enjoy the game.

Also a pro tip for anybody who needs it. Rebind your dodge key to something easy to use like your #1 or a mouse button or spacebar. It doesn’t matter really, whatever works for you. Then you can follow my handy video guide for learning how to dodge most of the tells in GW2.

Then you can truly begin learning the game and the beauty and elegance of the combat system. You’ll never want to wear your Clerics armor again.

Leo G.4501:

Well you’re not offering a hyperbolic example of my outlandish solution because you’ve yet to address what i purpose. Your initial response was at me, yes? Granted I like to propose ideas and if discussed, change the idea with the insight from others.

You say it’s a non-problem but people complain about the situation. And it’s not only a few whiners either. Obviously it’s not a non-problem. So do you just ignore it?

I think he’s right : it is not a problem just because people complain.

Imagine a world where people could buy a car that goes fast but without GPS system or cars with GPS that go slower. It is a matter of choice : those who can orient easily will go for the rapid car and those who get lost will opt for the GPS. Everyone can go from point A to point B. Some quicker than other generally but if someone without GPS makes a mistake on his way he’ll lose more time than everyone.
Since people like speed and are always in hurry, there will be a huge trend for the sport cars (as in meta).Is this a problem ?

Now here, people ask for roads to have surprise holes or false roads so that the use of GPS become mandatory if you don’t want to have bad surprises on the road. Basically the fact that people who have a nice orientation should be punished for their skill.

Why should people be punished because they are good at avoiding aoe, timing their dodge …. ? Is there any content that is not doable in cleric/magi/nomad stuff ? I don’t see one but if people complain it must be because there is …

More points:

• The same trade-off for offensive v. defensive stats that exists in GW2’s two PvP modes also exists in PvE. More defense means a player can make mistakes. Yet, I don’t hear complaints about defensive stats being pointless in PvP.
• Sure, players don’t attack at the same speed as mobs. Sure, players are less predictable than mobs. However, that just means it take more skill to get away with glass.
• Sure, in sPvP, there is a role for defensive stats, as a point holder. But, what role do defensive stats play in WvW — other than as a means to bolster survivability for players who need it?
• So, why the double standard? Because the opportunity cost is higher and fewer players can play glass in PvP? That’s essentially what you’re pushing for PvE to become if you’re pushing for defensive boons to be reduced if one has offensive stats.

Ranael.6423:

I think he’s right : it is not a problem just because people complain.

Imagine a world where people could buy a car that goes fast but without GPS system or cars with GPS that go slower. It is a matter of choice : those who can orient easily will go for the rapid car and those who get lost will opt for the GPS. Everyone can go from point A to point B. Some quicker than other generally but if someone without GPS makes a mistake on his way he’ll lose more time than everyone.
Since people like speed and are always in hurry, there will be a huge trend for the sport cars (as in meta).Is this a problem ?

Now here, people ask for roads to have surprise holes or false roads so that the use of GPS become mandatory if you don’t want to have bad surprises on the road. Basically the fact that people who have a nice orientation should be punished for their skill.

Why should people be punished because they are good at avoiding aoe, timing their dodge …. ? Is there any content that is not doable in cleric/magi/nomad stuff ? I don’t see one but if people complain it must be because there is …

In that situation, the sports car would have its regular roads it can travel at high speeds while the gps cars would have their tricky roads to travel and navigate using said gps and they would both get from point a to point b at the same time through different methods and different skill sets.

Bosses are allowed to have multiple mechanics to interact with at once.

Having only the single road is a bore, especially when its a flat, smooth road with no obstacles in sight.

IndigoSundown.5419:

More points:

• The same trade-off for offensive v. defensive stats that exists in GW2’s two PvP modes also exists in PvE. More defense means a player can make mistakes. Yet, I don’t hear complaints about defensive stats being pointless in PvP.
• Sure, players don’t attack at the same speed as mobs. Sure, players are less predictable than mobs. However, that just means it take more skill to get away with glass.
• Sure, in sPvP, there is a role for defensive stats, as a point holder. But, what role do defensive stats play in WvW — other than as a means to bolster survivability for players who need it?
• So, why the double standard? Because the opportunity cost is higher and fewer players can play glass in PvP? That’s essentially what you’re pushing for PvE to become if you’re pushing for defensive boons to be reduced if one has offensive stats.

The system would boil down to using your abilities properly or die a horrible death because your timing is attrocious and you let the enemy’s attacks get through instead of baiting them into wasting said attacks.

Consequences for a failed attack on an opponent creting an opening sound like it would add a greater amount of interplay in the mechanics.

And WvW is still supposed to ideally be a team game, so create opportunities for your allies to take advantage of. This is assuming a system where only your abilities would be increased, not your armour and health.

hybrid.5027:

Philosophically speaking, why should players be rewarded for using passive stats or punished for using active defense? If you have to use defensive stats to survive, managing to survive the encounter is your reward. If you don’t need defensive stats to survive… why use defensive stats? If you have to tack on some functionality to defensive stats as a carrot in order to get players to use them, you clearly aren’t taking the hint.

It sounds like the goal here is buffing defensive stats for the sake of buffing defensive stats. Cool bro, but an easier solution than redesigning how gear works in the game is for people to be adults and realize what the game is and game isn’t and enjoy it for what it is. One solution requires more developer time and effort than you can reasonably expect and the other requires players to put on their big kid pants and repeat the mantra, “experienced players don’t need, and shouldnt want, defensive stats in PvE.” That’s what the game is. Stop bashing your head against the wall trying to change it. Breath deeply and accept the inherent truth, move forward and enjoy the game.

Also a pro tip for anybody who needs it. Rebind your dodge key to something easy to use like your #1 or a mouse button or spacebar. It doesn’t matter really, whatever works for you. Then you can follow my handy video guide for learning how to dodge most of the tells in GW2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJODnlDOivc

Then you can truly begin learning the game and the beauty and elegance of the combat system. You’ll never want to wear your Clerics armor again.

My problem is not dodging, my problem is that I feel like the game has the depth of a puddle on a hot summer day. That video is pretty much par for the course of what I remember before I stopped playing.

What do you see the purpose of gear being then? Why should boon intensity remain the same across all gear loads? Why can’t non-damage condition effectiveness be governed by gear, just like attack power governs the damage you inflict with your direct attacks? Just put aside any thoughts about toughness and vitality, pretend they do not exist, just stats that increase the effectiveness of boons, non-damage conditions and blocks, health and armour increases do not factor in at all.

Why can you increase attack power but you can’t increase the effectiveness of these abilities? The whole game is built around proper use of abilities, so why not expand on that even further to promote actual diversity?

And its not like we’re banging on Anet’s door wielding torches and pitchforks. These are hypotheticals. If the conversation frustrates you and you do not want to participate, just do not participate and leave the blind fools to their sorry waste of time.

Croc, gear is your base offense or defense stats. That’s it.

Why do people feel that gear should be the primary source of depth? Why is the trait system, weapon choices, sigils and runes constantly ignored?