Guild Wars 2

Ladies and gentleman, boys and girls
Today were going to discuss thief in a way that is educated and respectful. So please keep the Q.Q and rage to a minimum.

I understand the hot topic it seems is that because a class has absurd acsess to stealth that it makes them invincible, this is true but at the same time false. The extremely high stealth uptime build usually involve a dagger or sword main hand (all do). You say how there is no counter play to backstab, when I ASSURE YOU there is. Let’s go down the list for a moment.
THIEVES HAVE LOW TO NO STABILITY ACSESS
Which means if you have a fearline, warding line, or anything that knocks you down you will make them unable to backstab you in stealth until that line disapates or they will blow a stun break in order to reach you, either shadowstep, roll for initiative or infiltraitors signet. Which is a win for you every time a thief blows a utility is a small victory. Because despite common beleif, theives do not have unlimited amounts of shadowsteps. Another good counter play is using ambients or animals in wvw as a way to block the stab. In spvp the best way to counter thief hanks is by trying to take unpredictable motions, theives are a lot less likely to gank you in areas with not a lot if room to maneuver. If you simply position yourself in such a way where you are less of a threat, they will seek a better target. Also in spvp and wvw, the best tip I can give is first of all is Follow these 3 steps theives don’t want you to know

1. For the love of God we hate stun breaks.
Seriously, if you have good stun breaks basi venom will suck a lot less. Theives have one stun, 3 dazes, lots of immobilize, 1 pull, and one knockdown. Theives get good SOFT CC but not a lot of hard CC. If you run maybe 1 or two stun breaks for that basi venom which by the way you can see if a thief has it on them you can avoid it using anti-stealth methods.
2. We hate AOE so utilize our Kitten me Here" circle.
Shadow Refuge is absurd awesome and strong, but it has a weakness, if you get knocked out if it you are revealed, it also means that we are confined to a circle for you to blast away in with all of your conditions and meteors and anything that hits hard. If you get us low enough we will reset the fight and that counts as a victory for you.
Or if you don’t it means we are about to move in after healing up a tad in order to probably backstab or basi backstab you. In which case get your active damage medigation ready and the second you see a block or an evaded on your screen, you know EXCACTLY where the thief is. He is behind you. Or if he doesn’t attack you for awhile and you go out of combat, look for a white circle on the ground. It means that he has shadow stepped away and you can predict where he will reappear as soon as that circle reappears you know where he is.

3. Learn to predict and know our utilities and traites. Just go on the wiki and take a cruise around. Look at the SA trait line and what else we have. I assure you your class has a way to best theives, just get creative

I hope I helped everyone learn a little more why thieves why yes are annoying but we aren’t invincible and are indeed killable. We can be outdone if you are smart. And perma stealth build are low dps especially now that this patch has destroyed most backstab builds.

Anyways. Happy Thief Hunting!
(Or being hunted)
;)

P.S. I might have made a few mistakes but whatever you get the idea.

Saved For Future Use

Saved For Future Use

that’s too hard to read so i wont even

What? You mean any profession can counter/kill a thief? That’s nonsense! Surely thief can do the same to every other profession (bunkers of any kind, engineers of most kinds, etc.)…oh wait, they can’t? Surely someone must be mistaken here.

Currently, any profession can kill any kind of thief with any kind of build, but a thief can’t kill every other profession. This is the gw2 meta. It’s unbalanced, but it’s true. If you give thief a bunker option so we can cheat like all the other bunkers (being unkillable and still dishing out fair damage), then that would even the playing field a bit.

yodog.4208:

Ladies and gentleman, boys and girls
Today were going to discuss thief in a way that is educated and respectful. So please keep the Q.Q and rage to a minimum.

I understand the hot topic it seems is that because a class has absurd acsess to stealth that it makes them invincible, this is true but at the same time false. The extremely high stealth uptime build usually involve a dagger or sword main hand (all do). You say how there is no counter play to backstab, when I ASSURE YOU there is. Let’s go down the list for a moment.
THIEVES HAVE LOW TO NO STABILITY ACSESS
Which means if you have a fearline, warding line, or anything that knocks you down you will make them unable to backstab you in stealth until that line disapates or they will blow a stun break in order to reach you, either shadowstep, roll for initiative or infiltraitors signet. Which is a win for you every time a thief blows a utility is a small victory. Because despite common beleif, theives do not have unlimited amounts of shadowsteps. Another good counter play is using ambients or animals in wvw as a way to block the stab. In spvp the best way to counter thief hanks is by trying to take unpredictable motions, theives are a lot less likely to gank you in areas with not a lot if room to maneuver. If you simply position yourself in such a way where you are less of a threat, they will seek a better target. Also in spvp and wvw, the best tip I can give is first of all is Follow these 3 steps theives don’t want you to know

1. For the love of God we hate stun breaks.
Seriously, if you have good stun breaks basi venom will suck a lot less. Theives have one stun, 3 dazes, lots of immobilize, 1 pull, and one knockdown. Theives get good SOFT CC but not a lot of hard CC. If you run maybe 1 or two stun breaks for that basi venom which by the way you can see if a thief has it on them you can avoid it using anti-stealth methods.
2. We hate AOE so utilize our Kitten me Here" circle.
Shadow Refuge is absurd awesome and strong, but it has a weakness, if you get knocked out if it you are revealed, it also means that we are confined to a circle for you to blast away in with all of your conditions and meteors and anything that hits hard. If you get us low enough we will reset the fight and that counts as a victory for you.
Or if you don’t it means we are about to move in after healing up a tad in order to probably backstab or basi backstab you. In which case get your active damage medigation ready and the second you see a block or an evaded on your screen, you know EXCACTLY where the thief is. He is behind you. Or if he doesn’t attack you for awhile and you go out of combat, look for a white circle on the ground. It means that he has shadow stepped away and you can predict where he will reappear as soon as that circle reappears you know where he is.

3. Learn to predict and know our utilities and traites. Just go on the wiki and take a cruise around. Look at the SA trait line and what else we have. I assure you your class has a way to best theives, just get creative

I hope I helped everyone learn a little more why thieves why yes are annoying but we aren’t invincible and are indeed killable. We can be outdone if you are smart. And perma stealth build are low dps especially now that this patch has destroyed most backstab builds.

Anyways. Happy Thief Hunting!
(Or being hunted)
;)

P.S. I might have made a few mistakes but whatever you get the idea.

Thanks for the post!

Regardless, stealth play and counter play have been poorly implemented. Among other things like conditions and extreme burst in spvp and wvw, stealth needs an overhaul for the long term health of this game and player retention. I know some of you may not agree, but I came from a game where combat was 10x faster and everyone had access to toggle abilities like stealth, invisibility and a 60 second emergency “oh crap” untouchable state power called phase. Phase was changed later in the games life cycle to where those under the same state could attack each other which balanced it out better. With that experience in mind, and years of pvping with and against those types of mechanics, I can safely say that anet needs to make some serious changes to these major issues plaguing the spvp and wvw meta.

yodog.4208:

THIEVES HAVE LOW TO NO STABILITY ACSESS

Blind>stability.
Teleports>stability
Stealth>stability
Thieves have high to always access to blinds, teleports and stealth.

inb4 Fortus arrives.

On-topic, it’s all fairly good advice but to add:

These are the ways Thief can enter stealth and how each one can be combated:

1) The D/P combo (Black Powder -> Heartseeker). If this is being used offensively, you will be hit by the blinding shot (unless you block or blind him/her first), but you can very easily prevent them from utilising this combo to escape (when they’ve detargeted you and are trying to run) by CCing them before or during the leap. My Mesmer takes Power Lock around everywhere in WvW for this reason.

2) Cloak and Dagger. This has a unique and easily spottable telegraph. Block/blind or dodge this and they’ve lost 6 initiative, half of their global resource (or 40% with 15 Trickery). Avoiding this one skill puts a LOT of pressure on a D/D or P/D Thief and forces them to use other methods to Stealth if they have any to recuperate lost initiative, putting the ball in your court.

3) Blinding Powder. Instant cast, not much that can be done about this, but remember that they will not have moved anywhere so you have an idea of where they are.

4) Shadow Refuge. Explained in the OP.

5) Hide in Shadows, the heal. This has an obvious cast and as such can be interrupted with any CC available fairly easily.

6) Last Refuge (Blinding Powder at 25%). If this procs, the Thief is probably dead already, but follow same idea as (4).

7) Smoke Screen + Heartseeker combo. This is much more rarely seen due to other utilities being more essential, but if it happens, CC (kind of a recurring theme).

8) Shadow Trap. All trap casting animations are identical and obvious. It shouldn’t be difficult to just not trigger it.

yodog.4208:

If you get us low enough we will reset the fight and that counts as a victory for you.

News to me. I really need to submit a bug report to anet for all of those missing loot bags.

Thieves can indeed be counter played except:
I have never won against 2 thieves. They always tele and stealth rez one another.
I roll elementalist and to have any chance against thieves I go glass cannon. Problem is that a properly specced thief can one-shot me with backstab…. All they need to do is stay out of my field of vision stealth, teleport and auto-attack. Rinse and repeat.
Elementalist needs to keep track of the CD of 20+ skills time everything perfectly including the dodges because if you’re hit even once by a thief you lose 1/4th-all of your hp. It takes me approximately 15 hits to take down a glass cannon thief and with thief stealthing all the time I almost never get the full 15 hits off on him and by the time I do there’s always a buddy of his that stealth rezzes him and then they burst me down together. Happened to me over 50 times….

But yes I do agree thieves CAN be counter played but it requires a ton of button mashing and timing and skill and luck to do so.

Kukchi.6173:

yodog.4208:

THIEVES HAVE LOW TO NO STABILITY ACSESS

Blind>stability.
Teleports>stability
Stealth>stability
Thieves have high to always access to blinds, teleports and stealth.

Stealth doesn’t stop CC, conditions or damage. So even if it is > it isn’t that great.

Stealth needs to be fixed urgently.

It should be something used tactically, not just spammed every few seconds to get free heals, condition removals etc and the ability to re-position and re-a_sse_ss the situation.

2m44s. Thieves have counterplay, but it requires well-timed execution of your skills, not simply mashing buttons.

Viking Jorun.5413:

2m44s. Thieves have counterplay, but it requires well-timed execution of your skills, not simply mashing buttons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmJ_kCNNCOs

so requires thinking?……to hard for most i’m afraid, must nerf

Thinking with a brain is too hard , therefore thief class needs a Nerf.

Even with out stab you cant reliability interrupt stealth ability and most of the stealth ability have no cast time that along makes thf nearly uncountable. This would not be so bad if stealth was just a stealth but its has too many added effect a strong reg, dmg reduction, and a condition clear. The offensive effects of stealth should make you want to attk from stealth and not sit in it all day and let it just fall off on its own.

Look at it this way if you use stealth as a heal your braking the ideal of the “thf” class and more on the lines playing a tankly melee class who goes into a self healing state with high evasion.

Viking Jorun.5413:

2m44s. Thieves have counterplay, but it requires well-timed execution of your skills, not simply mashing buttons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmJ_kCNNCOs

Srsly?

This is your example. I wont question the skill of the player.

BUT:

1. The thief might have had ~75% HP and also probalby not full initiative, as well as maybe not all utlities up.
2. The ranger had everything of CD and even used his 120s cd skill
3. The thief decided to come back. He could easily have escaped, without the giving the Ranger a chance of catching him
4. I’m pretty sure, that most of the damage the thief got, was by the ranger pets. The ranger just almost only used his evades (2x Sword 2, Sword 3), while his pet damaged the thief. He played a Power BM Build. His pet was what killed the thief. The player mostly only evaded.

The only “counter” in this is" spam more evades than the thief while your pet kills him.

EverythingEnds.4261:

Viking Jorun.5413:

2m44s. Thieves have counterplay, but it requires well-timed execution of your skills, not simply mashing buttons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmJ_kCNNCOs

Srsly?

This is your example. I wont question the skill of the player.

BUT:

1. The thief might have had ~75% HP and also probalby not full initiative, as well as maybe not all utlities up.
2. The ranger had everything of CD and even used his 120s cd skill
3. The thief decided to come back. He could easily have escaped, without the giving the Ranger a chance of catching him
4. I’m pretty sure, that most of the damage the thief got, was by the ranger pets. The ranger just almost only used his evades (2x Sword 2, Sword 3), while his pet damaged the thief. He played a Power BM Build. His pet was what killed the thief. The player mostly only evaded.

The only “counter” in this is" spam more evades than the thief while your pet kills him.

Er, no. You must have missed the part where I chained Sic ‘Em into Point-Blank Shot to get him out of refuge and force him to run. That’s a counter. That being said, almost no fight will ever be “fair”. Any other player would have taken advantage of a player of any other class in that situation, and still could have lost. I denied the thief stealth and his Refuge, forcing him to run and put his big “reset button” on a very long cooldown. That, sir, is your counterplay.

You’re also missing the point of a BM build. The entire goal is to maximize your pet’s damage. My damage isn’t shabby, either, due to my rune and high access to quickness.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Er, no. You must have missed the part where I chained Sic ’Em into Point-Blank Shot to get him out of refuge and force him to run. That’s a counter.

Great!
I don’t even have to argue with you!
You rely on the ONLY skill in the game, which counters stealth by applying revealed.
Yup, Sic’Em is a counter to stealth. But it’s the only one in GW2.

With your post, you basicly advertise for more anti stealth skills in the game.
I would rly welcome this.

By the way:
Sic’Em prevented him to stealth via the black powder + HS combo and he also couldn’t enter the Shadow Refuge then due to revealed.
Not to mention, that from your point of view, you couldn’t even see that he used Shadow refuge. When you turned around, it was already there. When the thief used shadow refuge, he wasn’t even on your screen.

@OP

I admire you for trying to help people out. But a lot (as you will soon notice), don’t actually want this kind of help. Instead they want something that will make their problems easier for them. Cheers.

EverythingEnds.4261:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Er, no. You must have missed the part where I chained Sic ’Em into Point-Blank Shot to get him out of refuge and force him to run. That’s a counter.

Great!
I don’t even have to argue with you!
You rely on the ONLY skill in the game, which counters stealth by applying revealed.
Yup, Sic’Em is a counter to stealth. But it’s the only one in GW2.

With your post, you basicly advertise for more anti stealth skills in the game.
I would rly welcome this.

By the way:
Sic’Em prevented him to stealth via the black powder + HS combo and he also couldn’t enter the Shadow Refuge then due to revealed.
Not to mention, that from your point of view, you couldn’t even see that he used Shadow refuge. When you turned around, it was already there. When the thief used shadow refuge, he wasn’t even on your screen.

I popped Sic ‘Em the moment he dropped Black Powder to prevent that. I came back with Monarch’s Leap to see that he had dropped refuge (but was still revealed), swapped to Longbow, and PBS’d him out of it right has he stealthed, further enforcing Revealed. I don’t see why you’re attempting to discredit my play.

I totally don’t want to discredit your play. Seriously.
You are probably a good player. But your upper post just read like you ment to have him gotten out of Shadow refuge with Sic’Em. But never mind, this is hairsplitting and I appologzie for it.

What is more important is, that the reason you could prevent him from stealthing was, that you had access to the only revealed-applying skill in the game.
And yes, skills which counter stealth definitfly are a counter to thieves.
But maybe there should more skills of this kind be into the game.
Saying “watch, you can counter thieves, if you have the only skills which applies revealed” makes no sense in my opinion.

EverythingEnds.4261:

I totally don’t want to discredit your play. Seriously.
You are probably a good player. But your upper post just read like you ment to have him gotten out of Shadow refuge with Sic’Em. But never mind, this is hairsplitting and I appologzie for it.

What is more important is, that the reason you could prevent him from stealthing was, that you had access to the only revealed-applying skill in the game.
And yes, skills which counter stealth definitfly are a counter to thieves.
But maybe there should more skills of this kind be into the game.
Saying “watch, you can counter thieves, if you have the only skills which applies revealed” makes no sense in my opinion.

Ah, I see what you’re saying now. The only solution is for everyone to reroll a ranger, then! /s

A shadow refuge is not a win to the thiefs opponent. If the thief pulls it off, he’s executed exactly what he wanted to in order to maintain the position of power in the fight. He can choose to leave or reengage at his discretion. Even if he’s downed within the refuge, there’s a good chance he’ll heal well before his stealth + downed skills run their course. Scrub standards of victory only do damage to players. Play to win.

That aside, stealth isnt the real problem, its the rediculous amount of evades coupled with teleports.

@ OP, I salute your initiative (pun, yes) to shed some light on this toxic topic. Unfortunately even if you tell them 2+2=4 they won’t believe you and will say math is op. I’ve watched counter-thief videos, I’ve read counter-thief threads and replies, and only a fraction of them did any good (few people said “thank you”).

Point being, we will never win.

Thank you for posting this.