If you’re going to wtfnerf black powder (about the only defense a thief has against ridiculous damage warriors do with an axe for example) at least decrease initiative cost for it.
Balancing a profession around PvP and neutering it for PvE is a terrible way to go about handling this one. I really wish our Devs would understand that the majority of our playerbase needs to learn how to use the mechanics of this game and not be standing around in the circle of blindness. Instead, they let the stupid be stupid and hurt the PvE thieves in the process. Awesome.
Those of you complaining about the OP of Blinding Powder…why do you stand inside it??? It’s mostly used as a forced movement skill anyway and a quick access to stealth. You see a thief use it you move, you don’t just stand there being stupid.
And the SB nerf…stop killing our one ranged attacking weapon please. It’s been neutered enough and if you want us not to be able to use 4 and stealth, don’t give us a tiny amount of damage to compensate.
Thats because the ridiculously dumb AI stands in it like a drunkard in quicksand
EDIT: Btw its probably nerfed because of some “real player drunkards” standing in it aswell. Complaining that they can’t spam their skill quickly enough to get trough the blinding field.
SB nerf makes perfect sense. Every other attack and field causes you to be un-stealthed. The Mesmer analogy doesn’t work because it’s the AI that attack. If I’m not mistaken, a thief can summon companions while remaining in stealth.
The blinding powder nerf also makes sense. It’s not as if the skill was completely removed from the game, but rather just toned down a bit. No one should be able to almost perma blind someone. (Yes, only noobs will stand inside the field but most melee classes would just get danced around by the thief because every time the class gets close, the thief drops the powder and the cycle continues until the melee class has been whittled down to death.)
Any time you want to balance a class, you must first tone it down. When a class has to rely on one mechanic in order to win fights, it needs to be changed. The first step is removing that mechanic.
Also, I play Ele and thief, so I have no axe to grind, here. This is just the way I see things.
From what I’ve seen MightyMacah dealing with stealth and fields, as long as the field does no damage yet gives conditions, it won’t take you out of stealth on any class. This SB Choking Gas nerf kind of feels like we’ve been singled out simply because we have more access to a spammable field.
[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
EDIT: Btw its probably nerfed because of some “real player drunkards” standing in it aswell. Complaining that they can’t spam their skill quickly enough to get trough the blinding field.
Reminds me of trying to kill Orrian Turrets in Arah on my Necromancer… You NEED a Staff… and (at least for Path 1) some crazy jump shots for the first two Turrets (at the Ooze boss).
What I wanted to add is, spending half the initiative pool on a skill that’s effectiveness has been cut in half doesn’t sound too good now. Lower the ini cost for it as well.
Well, in PvE, most mobs don’t attack more than once every 2 seconds (if not longer), anyways. They might have some strikes that hit more than once, but you really shouldn’t have an avoid-all button, scratch that, you shouldn’t have a prevent-all-damage-while-letting-yourself-and-team-kill-mobs-without-repercussion button.
And “spamming” (not mashing) Pistol5 isn’t very intuitive gameplay. Even Warrior requires more thought than that, and that says a lot… especially coming from me… and talking about a Warrior. The most thought you have to put into it is:
Is my field down? Y/N.
If Y: Drop field. Repeat from top.
If N: Repeat from top.
Keep it like this Anet, nerfing all because some noobs that complain for everything . . . keep it like that and you will get only The Sims players in your game.
I use to buy at least 800 gems at month to support Anet . . . i will not support a game that encourage noob players to do rule the game.
I use to buy at least 800 gems at month to support Anet . . . i will not support a game that encourage noob players to do rule the game.
Ironically, this will actually encourage players to not be as nooby and to mitigate damage without having a one-button avoid all in PvE. In PvP and WvW, it’s not going to be a game breaker, but it will definitely shake things up… well maybe not in WvW.
Keep it like this Anet, nerfing all because some noobs that complain for everything . . . keep it like that and you will get only The Sims players in your game.
I use to buy at least 800 gems at month to support Anet . . . i will not support a game that encourage noob players to do rule the game.
It’s okay, I’ll buy 800 gems a month to support Anet for realizing that perma-blind is silly.
Resident Disgruntled, Coffee-drinking Charr.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
Keep it like this Anet, nerfing all because some noobs that complain for everything . . . keep it like that and you will get only The Sims players in your game.
I use to buy at least 800 gems at month to support Anet . . . i will not support a game that encourage noob players to do rule the game.
It’s okay, I’ll buy 800 gems a month to support Anet for realizing that perma-blind is silly.
hahahaha you see this is what i mean.
Perma blind HAHAHAHAHAHAH . . . so you are saying that basically you don’t know that you can just walk 1 cm out of the circle ring and hit?
This is exactly what i say . . . and come one guys better for PVE . . . who with 3 fingers to to play this game could actually worry about how hard PVE is.
Keep it like this Anet, nerfing all because some noobs that complain for everything . . . keep it like that and you will get only The Sims players in your game.
I use to buy at least 800 gems at month to support Anet . . . i will not support a game that encourage noob players to do rule the game.
It’s okay, I’ll buy 800 gems a month to support Anet for realizing that perma-blind is silly.
hahahaha you see this is what i mean.
Perma blind HAHAHAHAHAHAH . . . so you are saying that basically you don’t know that you can just walk 1 cm out of the circle ring and hit?
This is exactly what i say . . . and come one guys better for PVE . . . who with 3 fingers to to play this game could actually worry about how hard PVE is.
I really feel like a god in this forum . . .
I’m talking specifically about perma blind on immob/lock, or down. Even if the thief isn’t the main focus, heavy armor classes can’t move on down.
The AoE Ring size is miniscule, that isnt the issue. The issue is you can kitten a snagged character to death with the duration of the powder right now.
Resident Disgruntled, Coffee-drinking Charr.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
Keep it like this Anet, nerfing all because some noobs that complain for everything . . . keep it like that and you will get only The Sims players in your game.
I use to buy at least 800 gems at month to support Anet . . . i will not support a game that encourage noob players to do rule the game.
It’s okay, I’ll buy 800 gems a month to support Anet for realizing that perma-blind is silly.
hahahaha you see this is what i mean.
Perma blind HAHAHAHAHAHAH . . . so you are saying that basically you don’t know that you can just walk 1 cm out of the circle ring and hit?
This is exactly what i say . . . and come one guys better for PVE . . . who with 3 fingers to to play this game could actually worry about how hard PVE is.
I really feel like a god in this forum . . .
If everyone can just walk out by it, what’s the problem then? Or are you just using hyperboles for the sake of it?
If it was up to me I’d rather just have the duration on Black Powder lowered so thieves can’t get as much stealth out of one black powder use. Stealth in general needs to be changed. Give Thieves and Mesmers defense in other ways instead…
I’d much rather see the abundant stealth abuse on a mesmer go before thieves stealth ever gets touched.
What bothers me most about this nerf is that theif is the squishiest class with the worst healing and condition cleanses because they have active defense you are suppose to you use the theif toolbox as the devs like to call it to avoid getting hit in the first place.
Now they nerf this and sword without compensation i cant see how that is balanced.
What bothers me most about this nerf is that theif is the squishiest class with the worst healing and condition cleanses because they have active defense you are suppose to you use the theif toolbox as the devs like to call it to avoid getting hit in the first place.
Now they nerf this and sword without compensation i cant see how that is balanced.
This.
Basically you spend half your ini pool on a skill that’s supposed to help you avoid damage, and now it’s effectiveness is cut in half while the cost remains the same. Anet should stop listening to random QQers and actually monitor a group of dedicated thief players to determine what is actually needed for this class.
I dont get the drama. Engineers got the exact same nerfs as Black Powder and Choking Gas, to their Bombs and Grenades, for the exact same reasoning. Only engineers got theirs nerfed more then a year ago.
Interesting they are buffing zerker warrior and nerfing black powder…. a thieves main defense to zerker warrior…
I’ll try not to be a back seat developer though, sure you guys got it down
They expect thieves to survive massive aoe and condi spam and 12k eviscerates with lowest HP in game, no invul, no prot, no reliable stab, crappy healing, no aegis, no blocks, buggy stun breakers/moblity moves, crappy condi removal, worst ranged weapon sets among all classes, âpparently w/o dodges/stealth and blinds (sup new nerfs), no high access to cc, not even highest dmg in game…
so why exactly should one play thief if they are not allowed to have anything or be good at something?
In reality, probably, devs don’t care about balance or our feedback, but more about numbers. Right now, there are too many thieves that play direct dmg builds, so they will keep nerfing those untill ppl either reroll condi or play other classes. Then again everything is speculation, i personally can’t see anything logical in their decision regarding thieves for past year.
The SB Choking Gas nerf is pretty ridiculous too, considering Mesmers can summon phantasms and clones without breaking stealth.
Maybe they will change that too when they talk about mesmer.
mesmers are already at the bottom dude , they sure need buffs . and come to think of it , that mesmers summons AI , so stealth shouldnt break , thief is attacking by him/herself so it kinda makes sense
The SB Choking Gas nerf is pretty ridiculous too, considering Mesmers can summon phantasms and clones without breaking stealth.
Maybe they will change that too when they talk about mesmer.
mesmers are already at the bottom dude , they sure need buffs . and come to think of it , that mesmers summons AI , so stealth shouldnt break , thief is attacking by him/herself so it kinda makes sense
d/p is also not exactly top of the pvp right now, didn’t stop devs to gut BP lol
What I wanted to add is, spending half the initiative pool on a skill that’s effectiveness has been cut in half doesn’t sound too good now. Lower the ini cost for it as well.
I feel the point of the nerf is to introduce more risk vs reward into the skill. If they changed it based upon your suggestion then it would end up the same as it was before. A little to no risk with a great reward. Currently Black Powder can be perpetually used, 4 pulses, 4 seconds. After the field is gone, a thief should have initiative to do it again.
Yes in pve mobs are stupid, in pvp players may stand in it. But this isn’t the point of the nerf, the point is the length of the interval of vulnerability when using BP. At this time its very small. When I say a interval of vulnerability, I’m referring to the up and down time of the effects associated with the skill in relation to when the class (or in this case thief is vulnerable to attack).
Right now the interval is quite small, with the only way to access the interval is by stepping out of the aoe. Intervals of vulnerability are needed, its what makes the user consider if its a good idea to use xxx skill or not since the objective is to not die and to take as little damage as possible.
The only people this change affects are those who spam.
Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10
If you’re going to wtfnerf black powder (about the only defense a thief has against ridiculous damage warriors do with an axe for example) at least decrease initiative cost for it.
What I wanted to add is, spending half the initiative pool on a skill that’s effectiveness has been cut in half doesn’t sound too good now. Lower the ini cost for it as well.
I feel the point of the nerf is to introduce more risk vs reward into the skill. If they changed it based upon your suggestion then it would end up the same as it was before. A little to no risk with a great reward. Currently Black Powder can be perpetually used, 4 pulses, 4 seconds. After the field is gone, a thief should have initiative to do it again.
Yes in pve mobs are stupid, in pvp players may stand in it. But this isn’t the point of the nerf, the point is the length of the interval of vulnerability when using BP. At this time its very small. When I say a interval of vulnerability, I’m referring to the up and down time of the effects associated with the skill in relation to when the class (or in this case thief is vulnerable to attack).
Right now the interval is quite small, with the only way to access the interval is by stepping out of the aoe. Intervals of vulnerability are needed, its what makes the user consider if its a good idea to use xxx skill or not since the objective is to not die and to take as little damage as possible.
The only people this change affects are those who spam.
I’m confused – you’re aware that BP isn’t big enough to hide from melee in, correct?
No matter where you stand in BP, an opponent can melee you without touching the circle. So a thief if vulnerable for all 4 seconds of BP.
If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
Every thief that runs offhand pistol is usually bad and just relies on the blinding powder crutch.
I main a thief and any terrible thief can win most duels by literally only pressing 5>2>1. It was sad and I’m glad it’s been nerfed a bit. I hope it gets nerfed further, actually.
Every thief that runs offhand pistol is usually bad and just relies on the blinding powder crutch.
I main a thief and any terrible thief can win most duels by literally only pressing 5>2>1. It was sad and I’m glad it’s been nerfed a bit. I hope it gets nerfed further, actually.
Except that’s not going to stop 5-2-1 on D/P, so the nerf actually only hurt P/P and S/P. D/P is untouched by this nerf completely.
[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
Well, in PvE, most mobs don’t attack more than once every 2 seconds (if not longer), anyways. They might have some strikes that hit more than once, but you really shouldn’t have an avoid-all button, scratch that, you shouldn’t have a prevent-all-damage-while-letting-yourself-and-team-kill-mobs-without-repercussion button.
And “spamming” (not mashing) Pistol5 isn’t very intuitive gameplay. Even Warrior requires more thought than that, and that says a lot… especially coming from me… and talking about a Warrior. The most thought you have to put into it is:
Is my field down? Y/N.
If Y: Drop field. Repeat from top.
If N: Repeat from top.
1. Your loop is bugged. The N part of the loop never loops to Y.
2. PvP argument invaled. You can’t spam the black powder since there’s something called an initiative pool. Just step out of the circle and move on. Its not like that it has an enormous range.
3. PvE argument is conditionally invalid. It will be invalid as long as the AI is still kittened enough to be whopped in to a corner, where 5 zerkers can a chop it to pieces in seconds.
Apollo Glade [VII]
Ymilia – Elementalist
Shade of Underworld – Thief
Well, in PvE, most mobs don’t attack more than once every 2 seconds (if not longer), anyways. They might have some strikes that hit more than once, but you really shouldn’t have an avoid-all button, scratch that, you shouldn’t have a prevent-all-damage-while-letting-yourself-and-team-kill-mobs-without-repercussion button.
And “spamming” (not mashing) Pistol5 isn’t very intuitive gameplay. Even Warrior requires more thought than that, and that says a lot… especially coming from me… and talking about a Warrior. The most thought you have to put into it is:
Is my field down? Y/N.
If Y: Drop field. Repeat from top.
If N: Repeat from top.
1. Your loop is bugged. The N part of the loop never loops to Y.
2. PvP argument invaled. You can’t spam the black powder since there’s something called an initiative pool. Just step out of the circle and move on. Its not like that it has an enormous range.
3. PvE argument is conditionally invalid. It will be invalid as long as the AI is still kittened enough to be whopped in to a corner, where 5 zerkers can a chop it to pieces in seconds.
dude i dont see you out there walking children in nature
Do people realize that when you are inside your BP field you are not actually protected?
any melee class can attack you while standing outside the circle in pvp, when you are using this skill it’s either to apply blind 2 times, to safe stomp someone or to go into stealth…
The only thing that this BP nerf touch is the safe stomp part.
On the other hand it partially destroy one of the only uses a thief can have in pve because let’s be serious and honest thief is not a good pve class in general…
When you take a thief to clear a high lvl pve content like fractal 50 it’s mainly for BP. The other use of a thief are the Shadow refuge, the explosion combo finisher and the trait for increased damages with picked up weapons.
It’s not the best dps class, the sustain in pve is extremely limited (it’s even worse with the stacking meta), you have a very little supporting capacity…
Edit: some of you are gonna say “yeah but you have acces to perma blind and even with this nerf you are still gonna have access to it since mob don’t attack really often”
Yeah you’re right but this is not because BP is overpowered it’s because the AI is very bad and i think upgrading the AI should prevail above nerfing the capacity that can break it.
Everything that makes a build less spammy is a good thing. Thief has way to many spam builds nowadays. Stealthspam, blindspam, dodgespam. Spammable stuff removes alot of skill from a build. For example the dodgespamming thief build isnt that strong because you can dodge every important enemy skill, its because you randomly dodge all that dangerous instant cast skills that you shouldnt be able to dodge at all.
This nerf was clearly intended to add counterplay when it comes to stomping. Currently if you drop BP on Warrior/Engi/Ranger/Guardian/Necro there’s almost nothing they can do about it. It’s different than popping a single blind on Virtue of Justice or Flamethrower or an Agis. Those require you to somewhat time it in order to be effective. Other ways to get a “safe” stomps (not having to stop to block/evade) involve using generally high CD Stability or Invulnerability skills. There’s also Stealth and Shadow Step.
BP is a relatively low cost for high reward as far as stomping goes. By the time the stomp finishes the Initiative is back. This change means you can strip the blind and land your 2 skill before it pulses again. I like the downed system but I think the mechanics behind need to be reexamined. Some downed states are just better than others and some classes are way better equipped to stomp than others.
This will also make it easier for close range melee CC to have a chance to walk into the field and stop them from leaping. You could do it before but this will make it more frequently possible.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Everything that makes a build less spammy is a good thing. Thief has way to many spam builds nowadays. Stealthspam, blindspam, dodgespam. Spammable stuff removes alot of skill from a build. For example the dodgespamming thief build isnt that strong because you can dodge every important enemy skill, its because you randomly dodge all that dangerous instant cast skills that you shouldnt be able to dodge at all.
-This nerf don’t make the build less spammy
-The only few builds that works on thieves are spammy builds. We searched for anything else but nobody found because there is nothing else.
Blackpowder safe stomping is now useless against anyone with a braincell. They just don’t want us to safestomp out of stealth, and here i was thinking last balance patch was all about bringing the thief out of stealth.
-The only few builds that works on thieves are spammy builds. We searched for anything else but nobody found because there is nothing else.
That’s the whole story of the thief here. The initiative system allows us to spam a skill. So as a result, the skills we have access to are weakened so that they aren’t too OP when we spam them. In fact, they are VERY weak.
As a result, we thieves tend to build accordingly and put all our eggs (or in this case, traits/runes) in the same basket so that at least one of our spamable skills will have some efficiency. But as a result, it leaves us with all the other tools at our disposal in a weak state. And so spam we do.
What bothers me most about this nerf is that theif is the squishiest class with the worst healing and condition cleanses because they have active defense you are suppose to you use the theif toolbox as the devs like to call it to avoid getting hit in the first place.
Now they nerf this and sword without compensation i cant see how that is balanced.
ACTUALLY! When I was looking into the GW2 wiki posts on how that sword #3 is being revamped it seems like you will be able to evade much more often now, with the expense of 1 extra initiative cost. Sounds like a buff to me! It wont turn over to lancerous strike unless you hit but hey that means more evasion too!
Every thief that runs offhand pistol is usually bad and just relies on the blinding powder crutch.
I main a thief and any terrible thief can win most duels by literally only pressing 5>2>1. It was sad and I’m glad it’s been nerfed a bit. I hope it gets nerfed further, actually.
-The only few builds that works on thieves are spammy builds. We searched for anything else but nobody found because there is nothing else.
Than make them less spammy, honestly you could reduce the dodge, stealth or blind spam by 30% and those builds would work exactly the same in PvP. The only difference would be that you could not spam those skills anymore. You would have to actually counterplay enemies and use those defense skills at the right moment. Those spam builds carry players to a higher ranking as they should be because the spam closes holes in their defense skills. For example I play alot engineer pvp and if I fight a good player that doesnt track enemy cooldowns its usually a thief. You wont find it on any other professions, even good thieves usually have no clue of all the cooldown timers because they automatically dodge, dodge, dodge or blind, blind, blind no matter what the enemy does. Another thing that hints at that problem is that you usually only find whine threads about condi necros and engis in the thief forum. The reason is because those builds can spam their damage even more than the thief can spam his defense so they eventually down in damage.
-The only few builds that works on thieves are spammy builds. We searched for anything else but nobody found because there is nothing else.
Than make them less spammy, honestly you could reduce the dodge, stealth or blind spam by 30% and those builds would work exactly the same in PvP. The only difference would be that you could not spam those skills anymore. You would have to actually counterplay enemies and use those defense skills at the right moment. Those spam builds carry players to a higher ranking as they should be because the spam closes holes in their defense skills. For example I play alot engineer pvp and if I fight a good player that doesnt track enemy cooldowns its usually a thief. You wont find it on any other professions, even good thieves usually have no clue of all the cooldown timers because they automatically dodge, dodge, dodge or blind, blind, blind no matter what the enemy does. Another thing that hints at that problem is that you usually only find whine threads about condi necros and engis in the thief forum. The reason is because those builds can spam their damage even more than the thief can spam his defense so they eventually down in damage.
Guild Wars 2 is inherently spammy.
Thief’s combat model is driven by being able to expend your resources to use any of your tools at any moment within a certain frequency. It’s “spamminess” (with a tradeoff being squishiness) is core to it’s play, and a significant reason people choose to play it.
You will never remove a thief’s ability to use it’s abilities more frequently in the short term (at the cost of using them less frequently long term) without removing that playstyle from Guild Wars 2.
Sylvari Elementalist – Mystree Duskbloom (Lv 80)
Norn Guardian – Aurora Lustyr (Lv 80)
Mia A Shadows Glow – Human Thief (Lv 80)
