Guild Wars 2

Proposed Changes:

Mug: Base damage reduced by 50%, the skill now applies 10 stacks of vunerability for 5 sec.

Cloak and Dagger: This wapon skill can no longer be a critical hit. CnD applies 3 sec protection on the thief if it hits.

Reasoning:

The combination of both skills provides to much frontloaded damage on certain power/crit builds since this is paired with the teleport on steal the combo is way to powerful on those builds as it is now. At the same time both skills offer next to nothing outside that burst combo and promote a “one trick pony playstile” (especially on D/D).
I belive the changes I suggested would give more sustain in open combat without totally changing the playstyle, the focus would still be on rather short burst sequences, but the burst would be spread out over a few seconds which would be covered by the protection instead of being on a 2 button combo.
The protection would also promote not to “camp in stealth” but to quickly re-engage more often.

Please comment…

Why don’t you wait for the huge crit damage nerf before nerfing those?

The amount crit damage will be reduced has next to no impact on my suggestion. Even with lower crit damage Mug + CnD hits to hard if CnD crits on a few builds while it offers nothing to the majority of builds.
(especially CnD crits to hard, 3.5k non crits on CnD happen a lot this still hurts and with my suggestion to mug those will hurt even more only the insane spike would be removed while you get protection to follow up with more damage)

CnD is already easy to counter with a dodge or block ability, as it has a cast time, even when using mug. In fact, the bursty nature of this is about the only reason to use D/D over D/P, which is superior in almost every way.

Cyricus.2981:

CnD is already easy to counter with a dodge or block ability, as it has a cast time, even when using mug. In fact, the bursty nature of this is about the only reason to use D/D over D/P, which is superior in almost every way.

You would not lose the “bursty” nature of D/D, since a succesful backstab would (almost) make up for the loss on Mug CnD due to the vunerability stacks.

I addition you would gain some sustain by successful CnD.

Protection on CnD? Yeah, that would be awesome for P/D condi thieves

But no, seriously, this will break D/D builds.

Your suggestion isn’t taking PvP into account – I can tell you’re basing this suggestion on your WvW experience because you claim CnD can hit for 3.5k non-crit.

CnD does 33% less damage in sPvP – removing it’s ability to crit (which limits more than just damage, mind you – think of all the traits/runes that rely on crits) and having it still cost 6 init would be insane – 3s of protection would be nice, but not really worth it, since it’s insanely easy to guess where a D/D thief who just used CnD might be moving to.

Don’t fix, it isn’t broken.

evilapprentice.6379:

Your suggestion isn’t taking PvP into account – I can tell you’re basing this suggestion on your WvW experience because you claim CnD can hit for 3.5k non-crit.

CnD does 33% less damage in sPvP – removing it’s ability to crit (which limits more than just damage, mind you – think of all the traits/runes that rely on crits) and having it still cost 6 init would be insane – 3s of protection would be nice, but not really worth it, since it’s insanely easy to guess where a D/D thief who just used CnD might be moving to.

Very good point (forgot about that), the simple answer is to remove the spvp “special rule”, this would make everything more consistent. That is the stated design goal anyway…

Since you want to address how it has too much front-loaded damage you can maybe suggest CnD be non-crit but upon successful hit it will increase the next attacks damage by a certain % compensating in that way. Although in practice I don’t think it’ll make a big difference since the backstabs can come fairly quick anyway.

@OP:

Think about what you post before posting. Those are horrible suggestions.

Bazzoong.7145:

Cyricus.2981:

CnD is already easy to counter with a dodge or block ability, as it has a cast time, even when using mug. In fact, the bursty nature of this is about the only reason to use D/D over D/P, which is superior in almost every way.

You would not lose the “bursty” nature of D/D, since a succesful backstab would (almost) make up for the loss on Mug CnD due to the vunerability stacks.

I addition you would gain some sustain by successful CnD.

Yes it will. You do not fully comprehend the implication of your proposed change.

I’ll give you a hint – there’s a cooldown on steal.

FLiP.7680:

Protection on CnD? Yeah, that would be awesome for P/D condi thieves

But no, seriously, this will break D/D builds.

One point is to make CnD useful for non-power/crit builds not just P/D also S/D would profit.

D/D would not be broken the damage will just be moved a bit, even the one-shot signet build will still work as it does now since that one is overkill anyway, if you eat the full Mug CnD BS combo with my suggestion in wvw you`d still be KITTENED (yeah I typed that out).

Bazzoong.7145:

One point is to make CnD useful for non-power/crit builds not just P/D also S/D would profit.

Who said P/D is non-power only? Stop suggesting changes on things you don’t know enough about.

It’s supposed to be bursty, remove the burst and you have to reshuffle a lot more then add 3 seconds of protection.

frans.8092:

Bazzoong.7145:

One point is to make CnD useful for non-power/crit builds not just P/D also S/D would profit.

Who said P/D is non-power only?

Common sense did.

Stop suggesting changes on things you don’t know enough about.

I don’t agree with OP, but let’s not pretend Power/crit P/D is something viable. All it does is muddy up the conversation.

CnD and Mug are fine as they are, if anything I would want the crittable Mug back to make D/D thieves rock in sPvP again. Although I like the nice sustain the small heal provides 30 trickery builds.

Moving the damage to rely more on backstab isn’t a good idea either, it can be incredibly hard to land a successful backstab against a good opponent, making the overall damage come more from AA and CnD, and HS for situations when you wont be able to reach for a backstab on your opponent. Personally I would want the dmg to be spread out more.

Infiltrators Strike>Mug>CnD>TS is a small burst S/D can create currently, and that would be broken as well.

And not sure about Protection for thieves, especially not on the weaponset.

^I put the protection on offhand dagger to increase the defensive options for that weapon choice. Basically offhand dagger lacks defense in my opinion, offhand pistol has blinds and an interrupt, shortbow has cheap evades and weakness combo.

I want to make offhand dagger better without playing the “do even more damage card”.
I aim at S/D and P/D here aswell not just D/D, protection would help a lot, S/D would get some defense and time before you have to use infiltrators return, P/D can use the boost aswell to make “bunkering” an option (other proffesions can do it why not thieves?).
And if it comes to D/D protection might actually make this weaponset usable in spvp since you will no longer get “accidentally killed by AoE” even if you down someone on the point.

Mug was already nerfed once. (can no longer crit)
CnD is fine as it does its job as a burst/set up skill for a backstab

D/D is a burst set and it does its job, any nerf to this will make d/d less desirable.

cnd protection on p/d thieves…oh the nightmare

i pass

I don’t want to bash the idea in the very first sentence so let’s concentrate on the pros of the suggestion.
1) X/D sets get some survivability boost.
Cons:
2) Dire P/D becomes unkillable roaming spec.
3) S/D builds based on Tactical Strike (WvW) and not Larcenous Strike now deal no damage whatsoever since CnD is the main source of damage in those specs.
4) D/D becomes useless in WvW/tPvP/PvE as about 1/3 of the DPS on this comes from CnD. In WvW, it’s already quite difficult to pull successful backstabs on people that are at any decent skill level and this change will render thief even more of an one-trick pony. In tPvP, D/D had burst and then nerf to CnD came and everyone dropped D/D (not to mention later Mug dmg nerf). In PvE, we are able to outdps warriors in single target DPS cycling CnD and BS. After dmg nerf, literally, no one will take a thief into the group.
5) Contrary to what you say, D/D will have less sustain. In order to kill people you will have to go more glassy to maintain decent dmg output.

Your suggestion will effectively limit thief to 3-4 weapon sets – S/P, D/P. SB and P/D (WvW).

ANET should focus on things that really matter. DB has no use in power specs whatsoever, X/D could use some sort of hard CC on Dancing Dagger so that P/D and D/D have that option at all. I could give you more useless traits/skills but that ain’t the topic of the dicussion.

^I really do not understand why you are so worried about P/D condi bunker thieves, other classes can have that, if someone wants it on a thief why the hell not?

S/D main damage source is AA cleave hits, most S/D builds will not provide enough crit chance to make CnD crits a reliable way of damage dealing, protection will get you more AA because it gives you more uptime, 2345 are used mainly for the utility on S/D anyway.

Please refrain from derailing the thread I really would like to discuss this, please leave offhand pistol discussion for other theads aswell as traits you consider bad or broken.

Thanks, and keep the posts comming. I apprechiate the overall civil tone of the posts, only 2 got deleted by the mods…

Where is the point of nerfing the burst potential of a burst set?
Mug damage was already nerfed and CnD has had its damage reduced by 33% in sPvP.

S/D stealth builds (yes, they exist) will also be nerfed by this change, although the damage on the set really isn’t that high.

Why do so many people want to nerf damage in exchange for survivability? Do you really want more bunker stuff in this game?
Btw, why should S/D stealth builds have less crit chance than D/D? Both usually take 30 in critical strikes, so they have exactly the same amount of precision.

Edit: concerning dire P/D thieves… they are already near impossible to kill. This change would cause even more rage towards thieves.

CnD can be used from range with teleports in combination with mug this offers to much frontloaded damage from range if CnD crits especially since this sets up BS for D/D, contrary to the most D/D players I think that it does not take much effort to land the 1st and 2nd CnD, basically with Mug CnD you can get 8-10k damage from range with the threat of a backstab following for 9k+. I do belive that BS should do that kind of damage it should be the most feared attack in the game a stealthed thief should be a threat to anyone, however the initiate combo hits to hard for the effort it takes, my argument is to increase the setup time for the burst, but cover part of that time with damage reduction.
The combo ofMug CnD BS will still hit for 15k+ on signet builds, Mug CnD with my suggestion will still hit 5k+ and you will beable to follow up on that due tot he protection.

And just as a sidenote I buffed Mug due to the vunerability on it, this makes up for the reduced BASE DAMAGE and makes it desirable for more builds.

I don’t know where you get your numbers from, but in full ascended berserker gear and 30 in critical strikes, my average backstabs are ~4k.

D/D signet build is a one trick pony, i really don’t care for it. You see nice numbers once, and that was it.

If you see a thief CnD, simply dodge, even if the thief is <900 away. It requires a little practice, but it is possible if you pay attention. Mug+CnD+backstab is often coupled with basilisk venom to make it even more obvious.

Weather the frontloaded damage is fine or not may be a matter of opinion. I think it is fine.
Also you should consider that mug is not only used in a backstab build. Sword builds will have almost no benefit from that short vulnerability, and even if used in a backstab build, you’d be required to use mug only in combination with backstab, otherwise it may be wasted.

I can’t believe I just read a thread to nerf Mug/CnD

it’s to the point I might have to roll a thief to see why ppl are screaming to nerf EVERY aspect of it

Azukas.1426:

I can’t believe I just read a thread to nerf Mug/CnD

it’s to the point I might have to roll a thief to see why ppl are screaming to nerf EVERY aspect of it

Be prepared to be disappointed.

Not that thief is a bad class – it isn’t. But if your expectations have been built on how people on these forums describe thieves… hoo boy.

evilapprentice.6379:

frans.8092:

Bazzoong.7145:

One point is to make CnD useful for non-power/crit builds not just P/D also S/D would profit.

Who said P/D is non-power only?

Common sense did.

Common sense has be wrong before. Sneak Attack scales with both condition damage as well as power and you can increase power alongside condition damage (but not crits at the same time). Conditions hit harder then power by having a decent surplus in condition duration increase and cover conditions or inadequate cleansing on your target.

Paulo.8459:

I don’t know where you get your numbers from, but in full ascended berserker gear and 30 in critical strikes, my average backstabs are ~4k.

D/D signet build is a one trick pony, i really don’t care for it. You see nice numbers once, and that was it.

If you see a thief CnD, simply dodge, even if the thief is <900 away. It requires a little practice, but it is possible if you pay attention. Mug+CnD+backstab is often coupled with basilisk venom to make it even more obvious.

Weather the frontloaded damage is fine or not may be a matter of opinion. I think it is fine.
Also you should consider that mug is not only used in a backstab build. Sword builds will have almost no benefit from that short vulnerability, and even if used in a backstab build, you’d be required to use mug only in combination with backstab, otherwise it may be wasted.

4K BS with ascended zerker and 30 crit strikes? My BS hits 6k average with half zerker and 0 crit strikes.

Swords will profit the most from vunerabilty…

Bazzoong.7145:

4K BS with ascended zerker and 30 crit strikes? My BS hits 6k average with half zerker and 0 crit strikes.

He’s probably hitting characters with full ascended defensive gear, it goes both ways.

Maybe the servers you fight against are full with squishy people…
I rarely crit over 6k, and if so mostly on upleveled.

How does sword profit from 5 seconds vulerability? It doesnt have huge spike damage like backstab. Sword is sustained damage, daggers can concentrate their damage in a short window of time.

cnd is very hard to land, i wouldnt nerf it.

gesho.9468:

cnd is very hard to land, i wouldnt nerf it.

I wouldn’t really mind making CnD non-crittable, but I can understand why people wouldn’t want this. It’ll already be taking a bit of a hit with the crit damage changes anyways.

I do want them to get rid of the chain stealthing though. It can be a bit hard to land on actual players sometimes, especially in a 1v1 scenario when they can focus more directly on you specifically. However, in places like WvW you can just use random mobs, pets, and clones (sometimes) to stealth chain since they don’t make any kind of effort to avoid you. I can even do this off keep walls if I want, which is incredibly silly (i.e. I can run around SM’s outer wall essentially having perma stealth).

Mug should be fine as is though.

Yamsandjams.3267:

gesho.9468:

cnd is very hard to land, i wouldnt nerf it.

I wouldn’t really mind making CnD non-crittable, but I can understand why people wouldn’t want this. It’ll already be taking a bit of a hit with the crit damage changes anyways.

I do want them to get rid of the chain stealthing though. It can be a bit hard to land on actual players sometimes, especially in a 1v1 scenario when they can focus more directly on you specifically. However, in places like WvW you can just use random mobs, pets, and clones (sometimes) to stealth chain since they don’t make any kind of effort to avoid you. I can even do this off keep walls if I want, which is incredibly silly (i.e. I can run around SM’s outer wall essentially having perma stealth).

Mug should be fine as is though.

I agree there is too much random stuff you can c&d off of… but that’s a problem of too many pointless trash mobs (they also can rally players) and a bug that lets you c&d off of walls. Neither of those are good reasons to nerf c&d itself. Remove a lot of the trash, fix the bug.

Yamsandjams.3267:

I wouldn’t really mind making CnD non-crittable, but I can understand why people wouldn’t want this. It’ll already be taking a bit of a hit with the crit damage changes anyways.

I do want them to get rid of the chain stealthing though. It can be a bit hard to land on actual players sometimes, especially in a 1v1 scenario when they can focus more directly on you specifically. However, in places like WvW you can just use random mobs, pets, and clones (sometimes) to stealth chain since they don’t make any kind of effort to avoid you. I can even do this off keep walls if I want, which is incredibly silly (i.e. I can run around SM’s outer wall essentially having perma stealth).

Mug should be fine as is though.

well, then one needs to keep spvp away from this. everyone is already running d/p. further nerfing cnd will make */d further less viable. i like d/d best, but cnd is its least reliable part. blocked, dodged and above all – range. without cnd no stealth, without stealth noone will let you to get in 130 range, without range – no cnd, one gets circle of failure. other then one time cooldowns, there is no reliable mechanic for stealth with */d.

Ah, these kind of complaints remind me of when Mug used to be able to crit, and C&D pre-nerf. Instantly killing someone before they could see you with 6k C&D and 11k BS.

More than a year later now, C&D still doing to much damage, so it should not be able to crit. Mug doesn’t crit and can hardly hit for 2-3k not to mention it actually heals the thief! Instead of learning to play against complain on the forums, and try to give legitimate reasoning.

Nerf Mug by 50% base? It will do less damage than a Sigil of Air. There is already the Sundering Strikes trait in the same trait line as Mug.

Thieves don’t need Protection, we are about evasion, might as well make it Aegis sheesh….

D/D thieves only need a change for Dancing Dagger and Death Blossom, the other skills are good where they are.

OP what you suggest are more of a nerf than an actual change for the better.

^Yes, Mug will be at the approx. same numbers as uperior Sigil of Air that is my intention with Mug damage.

Yes, there is already vunerabilty in the same trait line as mug, that is why I put it on mug aswell also vunerability profits heavily from the increased condition duration in thet trait line , my intention is to make the traits more consistent and profit from investing in the trait line. You would be able to get more vunerability for longer periods by investing further in the line, with my mug 5 points 10 points and 15 points would work together and synergise more. You could get nice stacks of vunerability even without crit, but the option for even more with crit woukd still exist.

The point is if you evade (dodge, Death Blossom…) you are not doing damage you are losing uptime, since thieves are so squish now we have no choice but to eveade which basically removes us from the fight. In group fights (especially spvp) we still will take loads of “trash damage” even if we spam evades to avoid the hard hitting stuff since everything is concantrated on a small area. We will die by pure accident from aoe even if we avoid all the hard hits. Protection would allow D/D to stay in the fight for a bit same goes for S/D. Just look at the S/D playstyle now you port and hit once or twice then port out again if you do not you will die. Mindless AoEspam is enough to drive you away, often the thief is not even targeted, some reliable protection uptime would surely help here. Especially D/D since you can not port out as easily as with S/D.

If ANet is ever going to look at this I would also prefer the range on Steal in general to be reduced. 900 range instant teleport with a trait for 1500 range is a little ridiculous in my opinion.

450 range (900 with trait) sounds more reasonable to me.

Aveneo.2068:

If ANet is ever going to look at this I would also prefer the range on Steal in general to be reduced. 900 range instant teleport with a trait for 1500 range is a little ridiculous in my opinion.

450 range (900 with trait) sounds more reasonable to me.

Of course it does, you’ve clearly never played a thief.

evilapprentice.6379:

Aveneo.2068:

If ANet is ever going to look at this I would also prefer the range on Steal in general to be reduced. 900 range instant teleport with a trait for 1500 range is a little ridiculous in my opinion.

450 range (900 with trait) sounds more reasonable to me.

Of course it does, you’ve clearly never played a thief.

What is with you people making pointless blanket statements instead of actually stating why they believe otherwise?

Check my sig. That’s one level 80 for every single class. So as a matter of fact I clearly play a thief.

Now tell me why you disagree with my suggestion or offer one of your own in return. But I get real tired with people that offer absolutely nothing of constructive value.

Aveneo.2068:

evilapprentice.6379:

Aveneo.2068:

If ANet is ever going to look at this I would also prefer the range on Steal in general to be reduced. 900 range instant teleport with a trait for 1500 range is a little ridiculous in my opinion.

450 range (900 with trait) sounds more reasonable to me.

Of course it does, you’ve clearly never played a thief.

What is with you people making pointless blanket statements instead of actually stating why they believe otherwise?

Check my sig. That’s one level 80 for every single class. So as a matter of fact I clearly play a thief.

Now tell me why you disagree with my suggestion or offer one of your own in return. But I get real tired with people that offer absolutely nothing of constructive value.

Oh, I apologize.

You apparently have no idea how thief functions, despite playing one. I hope that’s more clear.

My reasoning is you suggested steal be cut to 450 range.

The only class without a 1200 range weapon, the only class without an immunity or block skill, the only class with no in-class access to stability or protection. In the lowest HP pool, medium armor, relies on evades (Which move you around) for damage mitigation.

Our only functioning ranges weapon is an AoE/utility weapon, not designed for DPS (Shortbow) – Pistol MH is currently a poorly designed mess.

But you should have known all that, you play a thief. It just get’s old having to explain the absolute basics of a class to people who make suggestions for said class.

Just drop the condescending attitude; I am done here as you clearly want to keep your ridiculous teleports and won’t listen to reason. So you just act all high and mighty. If you don’t want to bother explaining ‘the absolute basics’ then don’t bother posting at all.

Have a nice life

Bazzoong.7145:

Proposed Changes:

Mug: Base damage reduced by 50%, the skill now applies 10 stacks of vunerability for 5 sec.

I’m sorry but this is a bone-headed proposition caused by extreme tunnel vision. We already can stack vulnerability through Sundering Strikes. No need for 2 traits doing exactly the same thing.

The first problem with this proposition is the 50% damage reduction. If you know a lot about Thieves, this damage means nothing after it was nerfed to never crit.

Second is the stacks of vulnerability.

To exchange 50% loss of base damage to 10 stacks of vulnerability will only worsen the situation since a Backstab that follows will now be 10% more potent.

If your goal is to curve the damage of a power build, then why on Earth give them 10% more damage?

If you want to suggest a nerf to Mug then remove the damage completely and instead, we knockdown our target for 3s plus the 3k heal. This will eliminate the damage combo of a power build Thief.

Cloak and Dagger: This wapon skill can no longer be a critical hit. CnD applies 3 sec protection on the thief if it hits.

You do realize that CnD applies vulnerability, right? So if your suggestions are implemented, I can apply 13 stacks of vulnerability prior to a Backstab plus the 3s protection. Brilliant! Let’s do that.

I belive the changes I suggested would give more sustain in open combat without totally changing the playstyle, the focus would still be on rather short burst sequences, but the burst would be spread out over a few seconds which would be covered by the protection instead of being on a 2 button combo.

You believe? Would you still maintain the same belief knowing what I just posted? That your assumption that “the burst would be spread out over a few seconds” is nothing but a wishful thinking coming from someone who have not played a Thief?

You’re unknowingly making your situation even worse.

The protection would also promote not to “camp in stealth” but to quickly re-engage more often.

Not necessarily. Stealth trumps Protection buff any day.

Aveneo.2068:

Just drop the condescending attitude; I am done here as you clearly want to keep your ridiculous teleports and won’t listen to reason. So you just act all high and mighty.

Have a nice life

Please tell me why you disagree with my assessment.

Aveneo.2068:

evilapprentice.6379:

Aveneo.2068:

If ANet is ever going to look at this I would also prefer the range on Steal in general to be reduced. 900 range instant teleport with a trait for 1500 range is a little ridiculous in my opinion.

450 range (900 with trait) sounds more reasonable to me.

Of course it does, you’ve clearly never played a thief.

What is with you people making pointless blanket statements instead of actually stating why they believe otherwise?

Check my sig. That’s one level 80 for every single class. So as a matter of fact I clearly play a thief.

Now tell me why you disagree with my suggestion or offer one of your own in return. But I get real tired with people that offer absolutely nothing of constructive value.

Your suggestion is neither realistic nor practical. You want to reduce the range yet you have not given a valid reason to why you find it “reasonable.” Why is your “reasonable” opinion carries more weight than evilapprentice.6379’s “reasonable” opinion?

You’re being ridiculous.

Longest range any class has for a weapon attack is 1500 (Ranger with LB and trait), and aThief can just use a Steal-C&D/BS macro to instagib anyone. That’s my issue!

Thief is just a ridiculous class with all their stealth and instant teleports. Next to Warrior they require no skill at all to play.

Gapclosers in general should all be in the range of 450-600; so I was being generous with giving 900 to a traited variant.

But I am done with this. At this stage it would have been better if the Thief class had never existed in my opinion. Any attempt at suggesting changes just gets all the Thief players into posting those pointless ‘You never played a thief’, ‘L2P’ and other demeaning comments because they cba to actually post something meaningful. So instead they ridicule others.

The Thief class could be so much more if it did not have to rely on all these cheap tricks. But people just don’t want to see it. So I apparently fell into the trap of trying to offer something to a brick wall.

My mistake, won’t happen again.

Aveneo.2068:

Longest range any class has for a weapon attack is 1500 (Ranger with LB and trait), and aThief can just use a Steal-C&D/BS macro to instagib anyone. That’s my issue!

Thief is just a ridiculous class with all their stealth and instant teleports. Next to Warrior they require no skill at all to play.

Gapclosers in general should all be in the range of 450-600; so I was being generous with giving 900 to a traited variant.

But I am done with this. At this stage it would have been better if the Thief class had never existed in my opinion. Any attempt at suggesting changes just gets all the Thief players into posting those pointless ‘You never played a thief’, ‘L2P’ and other demeaning comments because they cba to actually post something meaningful. So instead they ridicule others.

The Thief class could be so much more if it did not have to rely on all these cheap tricks. But people just don’t want to see it. So I apparently fell into the trap of trying to offer something to a brick wall.

My mistake, won’t happen again.

It sounds like you’re just not a fan of the thief playstyle. That’s fine of course, but it makes you a very poor candidate for offering balance suggestions concerning the class.
Just because you don’t like something doesn’t make it “cheap” or “easy”. If you had more experience with the class, I probably wouldn’t need to point all of this out to you – this is why most thieves are sick of the forums.

It’s not that thief players in general are unwilling to discuss changes to the class, they just need to be good ones, proposed by experienced players, not ones from players with a poor understanding of thief mechanics and a grudge against the playstyle in general. We deal with those ad infinitum on these forums, and the players never understand why “Stealth should break on damage!” (and others like that) is an awful, awful suggestion which would require completely redesigning the thief.

I personally hate fighting PU mesmers, but that doesn’t make them cheap or easy to play. I keep my mouth shut about them on the forums because A; I’m not experienced enough with one to offer truly relevant insights, and B; even if I was experienced it would be hard not to let my dislike of the playstyle in general bleed into my (what should be objective) comments.

evilapprentice.6379:

It sounds like you’re just not a fan of the thief playstyle. That’s fine of course, but it makes you a very poor candidate for offering balance suggestions concerning the class.
Just because you don’t like something doesn’t make it “cheap” or “easy”. If you had more experience with the class, I probably wouldn’t need to point all of this out to you – this is why most thieves are sick of the forums.

It’s not that thief players in general are unwilling to discuss changes to the class, they just need to be good ones, proposed by experienced players, not ones from players with a poor understanding of thief mechanics and a grudge against the playstyle in general.

I personally hate fighting PU mesmers, but that doesn’t make them cheap or easy to play. I keep my mouth shut about them on the forums because A; I’m not experienced enough with one to offer truly relevant insights, and B; even if I was experienced it would be hard not to let my dislike of the playstyle in general bleed into my (what should be objective) comments.

Finally, a reasonable answer. This I can appreciate.

You are correct that I am fed up with the Thief class and how they (or I) can just instagib any other (ranged) class whenever they (or I) want.

As I saw another thread regarding gapclosers, I felt that they all need to be brought in line. After all, they are gapclosers and should not allow you to jump halfway across a football field. Hence my suggestion for the reduced range on Steal. A melee oriented character needs to work a little harder at getting into melee range when faced with a ranged character and not simply push a button and done.

At any rate, while I appreciate your reasoning for providing an objective view when posting, you have to admit that ‘clearly you don’t play a thief’ is not objective. And pointless blanket statements like that is what I had an issue with as I have gotten such remarks too much already when trying to have any discussion concerning the Thief class. So often I see ‘You don’t play Thief’ or ‘L2P’ as if that immediately invalidates any post; almost giving the impression that this is all the Thief players know how to post.

Thief is broken and requires (a lot of) attention. And with attention I do not mean nerfs. They are certainly in need of a lot of improvement too, next to toning a few things down. That is my (objective/subjective) view on the matter. They should be more the sneaky/evading ‘Scout’. So kinda more Assassin than Thief (ridiculous why they invented a new ‘class’ when they could have taken Assassin directly from GW1 imo).

Aveneo.2068:

Gapclosers in general should all be in the range of 450-600; so I was being generous

It is a shadowstep, not a gapcloser. Heartseeker is a gapcloser.

But I am done with this. At this stage it would have been better if the Thief class had never existed in my opinion.

Perhaps, but here we are, it exist and that can not be undone for as long as this game exist.

Any attempt at suggesting changes …

Many ‘suggestions’ are nothing less but insults and trolling, some are well intended but lack insight or miss important aspects, some are actually good and balanced.

The Thief class could be so much more if it did not have to rely on all these cheap tricks.

(1) ‘cheap tricks’ is a highly subjective qualification and, quite frankly, not particularly inviting to open discussion. Imagine someone walking in on you suggesting to discuss the ‘cheap tricks’ you’ve been using.
(2) steal is the specific F1 class mechanic with a variety of uses and effects beyond Mug. Reducing it’s range to, essentially, melee range is a huge nerf.

But people just don’t want to see it. So I apparently fell into the trap of trying to offer something to a brick wall.

Emotional blackmail, that is a ‘cheap trick’ ;p

@Aveneo You’re forgetting that Steal is our only class mechanic and we have to sacrifice precious trait points to make it useful moreso than all the other classes.