Guild Wars 2

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

Yet you have many threads with a long list of changes to those instant-cast skills and you really truly believe that they didn’t add them on purpose? I am not saying that they are imbalanced because I don’t know but I think they where put in on purpose and whatever parameters that the devs had they fit those balance parameters. So are all instant cast skill imbalanced in the context of Gw2 if so many where intentially placed in the game to begin with?

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

I disagree. That’s like saying snipers or noob tubes don’t belong in FPS games.

Maugetarr.6823:

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

I disagree. That’s like saying snipers or noob tubes don’t belong in FPS games.

Don’t forget vehicles or kill streaks.

oZii.2864:

You think that those are the only rules that govern the way they designed the game. As if you where in the meeting but that can’t possibly be the only rules that govern the game because there are several instant cast attacks in the game or the cast animation is so fast that it is almost impossible to see coming.

They’re in the game, but that doesn’t mean that they truly belong there.

oZii.2864:

This maybe have been put in place to give those skills the illusion that they are indeed extremely powerful. To also counter alot of the instant cast defenses available to professions.

Countering a bunch of instant-cast offensive abilities with more instant-cast offensive abilities is a type of combat that only functions well within the context of an MMO with a dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. Without something to mitigate that kind of damage, combat in GW2 turns into an aimbot FPS in which the victor is determined by pressing the most buttons the fastest. It’s hardly skillful, and it’s hardly engaging.

oZii.2864:

I can’t see why you and some other’s think that the balance team let anomalies into the game instead of those presumed anomalies being decided choices.

Hey, I’m still shocked that the Thief—as we know it—is even in this game at all because of how poorly it fits into the context of GW2. Then again, every MMO has to have its edgy ninja archetype. I will argue the point that the only reason that the Thief is in GW2 is because it appeals to a demographic, because it sure as rocks doesn’t functionally fit within the context of the rules that govern balanced GW2 combat.

Back to the point, though: just because those anomalies are in the game mean that they truly belong there. Your very choice of the word “anomalies” speaks volumes about the nature of instant-activation offensive skills. They simply don’t belong in GW2; the game wasn’t designed to handle them in a competitive setting.

oZii.2864:

From all your threads it looks like you want to slow the combat down and make it predictable where anything instant is bad and therefore must be changed.

I’ve made the point why they’re bad. The majority of it stems from the lack of a dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. I’m not arguing that GW2 needs a healer, but rather that there are very concrete repercussions that must resonate in skill design across all player-controlled classes.

oZii.2864:

I personally see those more instant type of spells provide the illusion of reliable attacks that you can count on.

What does this sentence even mean?

oZii.2864:

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

Yet you have many threads with a long list of changes to those instant-cast skills and you really truly believe that they didn’t add them on purpose? I am not saying that they are imbalanced because I don’t know but I think they where put in on purpose and whatever parameters that the devs had they fit those balance parameters. So are all instant cast skill imbalanced in the context of Gw2 if so many where intentially placed in the game to begin with?

Once more, you’re not even talking about my main points regarding how GW2 should be balanced. Nobody ever seems to have anything to say about those points.

But I’ll humor you anyway: just because they’re in the game doesn’t mean that they don’t belong. Just because the devs added those skills in doesn’t mean that they aren’t flawed/overpowered.

Maugetarr.6823:

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

I disagree. That’s like saying snipers or noob tubes don’t belong in FPS games.

You’ve missed the mark again. We’re not talking about FPS games. We’re talking about a specific kind of MMORPG. Please, guys, if you can’t actually do anything but grasp at straws—well, I guess I don’t mind the bumps.

Also, your analogy is pretty bad.

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

I disagree. That’s like saying snipers or noob tubes don’t belong in FPS games.

You’ve missed the mark again. We’re not talking about FPS games. We’re talking about a specific kind of MMORPG. Please, guys, if you can’t actually do anything but grasp at straws—well, I guess I don’t mind the bumps.

Also, your analogy is pretty bad.

We’re talking about a game where they didn’t implement the trinity so it’s not exactly following all the formula of all the others. It’s different and unique but you’re trying to change it into a vanilla MMORPG format.

Also I like the analogy of having instant kill headshots versus other classes that have to run around and get kills. If the games were only limited to all assault rifles it would be pretty bland.

Swagg.9236:

Also, your analogy is pretty bad.

In your eyes, what’s the analogy?

Maugetarr.6823:

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

I disagree. That’s like saying snipers or noob tubes don’t belong in FPS games.

You’ve missed the mark again. We’re not talking about FPS games. We’re talking about a specific kind of MMORPG. Please, guys, if you can’t actually do anything but grasp at straws—well, I guess I don’t mind the bumps.

Also, your analogy is pretty bad.

We’re talking about a game where they didn’t implement the trinity so it’s not exactly following all the formula of all the others. It’s different and unique but you’re trying to change it into a vanilla MMORPG format.

Also I like the analogy of having instant kill headshots versus other classes that have to run around and get kills. If the games were only limited to all assault rifles it would be pretty bland.

As far as I can see it, he’s moving away from a vanilla MMORPG. What those bring to my mind is linear combat decided mostly on stat differences (i.e. investment in grinding) and builds (hard counters/strategy in an organizational sense, i.e. having outcomes decided entirely around what builds face what builds), with individual player capabilities as a secondary or tertiary concern.
For the FPS analogy: I don’t see this as particularly valid, seeing as how in FPSs health is so low that the difference between a sniper killing speed and an assault rifle is pretty low (in terms of time between opening fire to death). If snipers/noobtubes were the only way to remove a target’s health in only a few seconds, while assault rifles took upwards of ten seconds, I think you would start to see the difference.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Maugetarr.6823:

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

Swagg.9236:

Maugetarr.6823:

I (and others) have already argued the points earlier and I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement with more debate. The combat system in this game is fun, as is, with instant cast from various classes.

Fun is subjective. Balance is not. Instant-cast offensive abilities are imbalanced within the context of GW2.

I disagree. That’s like saying snipers or noob tubes don’t belong in FPS games.

You’ve missed the mark again. We’re not talking about FPS games. We’re talking about a specific kind of MMORPG. Please, guys, if you can’t actually do anything but grasp at straws—well, I guess I don’t mind the bumps.

Also, your analogy is pretty bad.

We’re talking about a game where they didn’t implement the trinity so it’s not exactly following all the formula of all the others. It’s different and unique but you’re trying to change it into a vanilla MMORPG format.

Also I like the analogy of having instant kill headshots versus other classes that have to run around and get kills. If the games were only limited to all assault rifles it would be pretty bland.

As far as I can see it, he’s moving away from a vanilla MMORPG. What those bring to my mind is linear combat decided mostly on stat differences (i.e. investment in grinding) and builds (hard counters/strategy in an organizational sense, i.e. having outcomes decided entirely around what builds face what builds), with individual player capabilities as a secondary or tertiary concern.
For the FPS analogy: I don’t see this as particularly valid, seeing as how in FPSs health is so low that the difference between a sniper killing speed and an assault rifle is pretty low (in terms of time between opening fire to death). If snipers/noobtubes were the only way to remove a target’s health in only a few seconds, while assault rifles took upwards of ten seconds, I think you would start to see the difference.

I don’t get that at all from these suggested changes. As a thief main, I have been killed by each and every class at some point and it has been largely determined by player skill during those encounters. I can see some of the complaints about grinding, but that is a completely separate issue from this. Most of the thief skills have decent telegraphs, except 2 of the stealth attacks (BS and TS). Those attacks even have a set up and positional requirement so it’s not as if there is no counterplay available. These changes lower damage while simultaneously slowing them down, thus if you’re hit by the new slower attack, it doesn’t even pose as much of a threat. In fact the argument about instant cast abilities (in this thread and the ele thread) seem largely tautological/circular as something along the line of “Instant cast abilities shouldn’t exist because MMOs don’t have them and GW2 is an MMO.” There are a couple of builds in this game that need minor tweaks, but these changes largely remove the unique mechanics and flavor of thieves (which do exist, even though the author refers to them as nothing more than stupid, evasive, blind-spammers in the ele thread). Based upon reading the ele thread, I don’t think the author is impartial enough to do anything more than nerf the thief.

As for the FPS analogy it can be up to 6 hits with an AR (depending on game mode) versus a single shot with sniper rifle. Considering though that at most you’ll probably get 3-4 attempts at hitting someone in the timeframe that the AR can throw out a full magazine there are tradeoffs to each weapon (hmmm starting to sound like a GC build versus a balanced build). Still if that analogy doesn’t work for you there’s nothing I’ll probably be able to argue that will make it seem like it to you.

Lol I’d accept Jumper’s changes to thief over this guy, and I don’t even like Jumper’s changes.

What’s truly ironic is he thinks his opinion is “law” – nevermind the obvious situation of putting laws of unintended consequences to the wind.

Seriously, these balance ideas you have for all classes are cute, but, as with all balance suggestions given by players, it’s simple theoretical gymnastics. It’s fun playing dev – I get it. However the best we can do as players is give general feedback on what we have experienced. Leave hardcore balancing to the devs and the alpha testers. Anet just needs to make sure their alpha testers have a healthy amount of players who deeply know the mechanics of the game inside and out.

Even then, giving general feedback is a touchy subject because, as an example, 6 pool zerg rush was a thing which drove people up in arms – the problem being that most of those people were just bad at the game though. Where simple scouting would solve the problem of any type of quick push. There was a time in starcraft history where people were actually debating about the efficiency of using hotkeys instead of clicking everything. Feedback is great, but it has its limits.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Lol I’d accept Jumper’s changes to thief over this guy, and I don’t even like Jumper’s changes.

What’s truly ironic is he thinks his opinion is “law” – nevermind the obvious situation of putting laws of unintended consequences to the wind.

Seriously, these balance ideas you have for all classes are cute, but, as with all balance suggestions given by players, it’s simple theoretical gymnastics. It’s fun playing dev – I get it. However the best we can do as players is give general feedback on what we have experienced. Leave hardcore balancing to the devs and the alpha testers. Anet just needs to make sure their alpha testers have a healthy amount of players who deeply know the mechanics of the game inside and out.

Even then, giving general feedback is a touchy subject because, as an example, 6 pool zerg rush was a thing which drove people up in arms – the problem being that most of those people were just bad at the game though. Where simple scouting would solve the problem of any type of quick push. There was a time in starcraft history where people were actually debating about the efficiency of using hotkeys instead of clicking everything. Feedback is great, but it has its limits.

Startcraft 2 saw this with the 4 gate which was nerfed then changed again basically once the player base learned 2 play. This did however make protoss extremely weak to terran m/m and zerg RR in the early game. A problem that wouldn’t have happened if the 4 gate wasn’t nerfed. Unintended consequence resulting in protoss being weak for a long long time in the early life of startcraft 2. Basically All-ins vs Macro games which is a decided decision and has pro’s and cons like balanced builds vs glass cannons.

I feel like Swaggs balance changes for all classes is geared toward the lowest skill level. I never said I died because that Ele had at least 15 in air. If he missed his All-In he probably is dead that was his choice to go all in knowing the consequences.

It seems like you formulated some rules that you think should apply to gw2 and made changelists based on you opinion how to balance gw2.

Firstly i think that many of your changes don’t make sense, even in your own logic. For example i dont see any justification to nerf the general damage of thiefs by roughly 20%. You say you don’t want them to have burst what would justify nerfing things like backstab, but how do you explain nerfing things like surprise shot?

Secondly and more imortantly i don’t see any basis for those rules you set up at all. It seems like you simply stated them and expect the game to follow your opinion, or where else did you get them from? Gw2 isn’t completely balanced at the moment but it works relatively well despite not following your rules.

Updates to damage numbers across the board.

Swagg.9236:

Updates to damage numbers across the board.

Lol, you reduced the coefficients even more? What happened to skills like Infi Strike being supposed to be on the same level as Savage Leap?

I like how you’ve gotten so much negative feedback that you have either ignored out-of-hand (such as my feedback) or chosen to address by repeating the same mantras and exercising a policy of “I’m right and you’re wrong because in my opinion X and that is not your opinion so therefore you’re wrong.”

He goes back and bumps his threads once they fall a few pages. It’s really stupid and obvious. The discussion was ok at first but if the thread is meant to die let it die.

oZii.2864:

He goes back and bumps his threads once they fall a few pages. It’s really stupid and obvious. The discussion was ok at first but if the thread is meant to die let it die.

Don’t worry the dev’s won’t be doing any of what he recommends. He wouldn’t even answer basic Q’s like how many hours he has on a thief in another thread.

As far as PvE goes your post reads like: "Thief profession removed from the game."

We actually need buffs, guardians do more DPS while bringing a lot more support.

“FUNCTIONALITY CHANGE TO STEALTH FOR ALL PROFESSIONS
•If a player attacks while in stealth, but “misses” an attack due to being out of range, blinded, blocked, evaded, obstructed, or if they struck an invulnerable target, that player gains the revealed debuff for 4 seconds.
"

The problem with that is lot of class can make build for spam aegis, blind etc…

for exemple a guard, its already really hard to kill, if you get revelead coz of his aegis, then you can’t really dps him for 4sec, because auto attack will not hurt him so much but he will attack you… so then after 4sec you decide to go back stealth and stab again, if he have another aegis on, then you are again revelead and can do nothing for 4sec
after guard can dodge, get invulnerability etc… you will never be apt to kill one

or exemple a D/D thief vs a D/P, the DD thief just CnD so hes stealth and ready for stab, theP will spam his blind AoE and wait… so if you decide to attack you get revelead, if you decide to wait you are not revelead ok, then the DP thief do his combo hes stealth and will stab you, then the DD use his heal, the D/p use again his blind AoE etc…

Sorry in advance, im sure my text will be hard to read, but I mean if you get too much revelead a thief cant really DPS, his auto attack will never been enough and you will take too much damage

so that mean you fail your big damage (backstab or the 1 for P/D condi thief) and class who can have lot of blind, block, inlvuln is already hard to kill… if he can also stuck you in revelead mode you cant do anything that mean a invuln of 5sec (guard skill, warr, block shield etc…) + a semi invuln because of revelead and we have only auto attack for do some damage

because dagger thieves, heartseeker its useless if the guy is more than 25% HP all other skill do small damage
a Pistol thief (P/d) have also nothing, well maybe the 3 for get some tourment…)
a double pistol dont really need stealth so still the 3 spam
sword user dont really need to go stealth for make some damage

Arganthium.5638:

Swagg.9236:

Updates to damage numbers across the board.

Lol, you reduced the coefficients even more?

Increased a lot of base damages and damage coefficients across the board.

Arganthium.5638:

What happened to skills like Infi Strike being supposed to be on the same level as Savage Leap?

That was actually one of the changes; the two skills now inflict identical damage despite the fact that [Savage Leap] actually has a cool-down.

Arganthium.5638:

I like how you’ve gotten so much negative feedback that you have either ignored out-of-hand (such as my feedback) or chosen to address by repeating the same mantras and exercising a policy of “I’m right and you’re wrong because in my opinion X and that is not your opinion so therefore you’re wrong.”

Nobody’s going to take “feedback” or “arguments” seriously if they start with “Looks like you haven’t gotten any smarter.”

Swagg.9236:

Guild Wars 2 was a game with combat designed around the player anticipating an opponent’s moves and appearance by reading the opponent’s actions and gear,

Arganthium.5638:

No it wasn’t, otherwise there would be visible casting bars.

A game can revolve around countering an opponent’s moves and not require cast-bars everywhere. By your logic, every 2-D fighting game ever would need cast-bars, Dark Souls would need cast-bars; even something like Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance would need cast-bars. A game based on reacting to an opponent’s cues can exist without them. Those cues just need to be defined well enough in order for the player to react in time or plan around. GW2 fails to do this time and again across all of the professions as well as in universal gear.

As for your enormous list of skills, the vast majority of those skills come with investments that require the player to commit active cast-time, post-cast effect delay time, prerequisite conditions or sometimes more than just one of those things order to get considerable damage in. The few that don’t are the ones that I am trying to address with these threads.

Arganthium.5638:

Of course, not all of these skills are very good, or hit often enough to always do more damage than LS, but many, many of them deal more damage than LS does anyways

If the skill doesn’t hit, it doesn’t deal any damage. Powerful skills like [Big Ol’ Bomb] or [Ice Spike] are skills that can be actively avoided by players given their cast-times combined with their post-cast effect delay times. There is no way to compare them to [Larcenous Strike], which not only has a mere 1/2 second activation time, is also a melee skill with a prerequisite chain skill that grants evasion while attacking and moves into a target from range. Moreover, [Larcenous Strike] doesn’t even possess a cool-down. There is a canyon of discrepancy separating the ease of getting off a [Larcenous Strike] compared to something like [Big Ol’ Bomb] or really any of the skills you put on your list.

Arganthium.5638:

(100b only needs to hit a few times to do more damage, for instance),

And [Hundred Blades], again, requires a lot of prerequisite set-up (snare or CC) for it to ever really be good outside of maybe corpse cleaving a downed player. There’s no way anyone can really put [Hundred Blades] on the same level as [Larcenous Strike] because of the build up that [Hundred Blades] requires to score a substantial amount of damage especially since Warrior doesn’t possess something like [Infiltrator’s Strike] or any other number of direct-to-target teleports available to the Thief.

I made more number adjustments to some skills including several initiative cost adjustments. I was overpricing some of the initiative costs on a few combo skills, so hopefully the restructuring makes them a little more viable.

UPDATES

• Pistol [Unload], [Incendiary Slug] and [Body Shot].
• Traps

There’s another thread in which plenty of people were upset about stealth changes that would treat offensive skills used while in stealth in the same manner as offensive skills when used outside of stealth. I still don’t see the argument there, but there’s a debate to be had:

WHICH IS BETTER?

• “Nerf” stealth to make it apply reveal to players that flub up offensive skills from stealth by “missing” due to block, blind, striking an invulnerable target, getting LoS’ed or using a skill when it is out of range?
• Give Thief 1-slot stealth attacks 5-second cool-downs.

We can’t go on just giving Thief 1-slot stealth attacks special treatment that overrides every balance mechanic in the game.

sry, but every time i look into this thread i read nonsense.

“Give Thief 1-slot stealth attacks 5-second cool-downs.”

u have no knowledge of thief mechanics. backstabs can hit every 4.5 sec if u have an insane timing – average u hit every 5 sec and more, much more. a 5sec cd is nothing “new” and finally nonsense.

“WHICH IS BETTER?”

The third one: “play thief or complain about something that can’t be fix by players in game combat behavior – i want to say: there are more than a handful of possibilities for counterplay stealth – lern them!”

Edit:
i “allow” u complaining about the coming “improvisation”-change it is OP although this trait need a change or simply should be replaced.

Tetsuyja.7805:

sry, but every time i look into this thread i read nonsense.

“Give Thief 1-slot stealth attacks 5-second cool-downs.”

u have no knowledge of thief mechanics. backstabs can hit every 4.5 sec if u have an insane timing – average u hit every 5 sec and more, much more. a 5sec cd is nothing “new” and finally nonsense.

A 5-second cool-down is entirely new because it would prevent the Thief from spamming a 1-slot stealth attack skill until it hits in spite of the opponent employing counter-play.

Swagg.9236:

Tetsuyja.7805:

sry, but every time i look into this thread i read nonsense.

“Give Thief 1-slot stealth attacks 5-second cool-downs.”

u have no knowledge of thief mechanics. backstabs can hit every 4.5 sec if u have an insane timing – average u hit every 5 sec and more, much more. a 5sec cd is nothing “new” and finally nonsense.

A 5-second cool-down is entirely new because it would prevent the Thief from spamming a 1-slot stealth attack skill until it hits in spite of the opponent employing counter-play.

oh yes, i’ve forgotten your first “what we can do better”-point… u are right

nevertheless i remind u on an old patch – there the behavior of sneak attack was fixed/patched/buffed whatever u want to describe it – the fact is anet changed sneak attack : the thief gets revealed after hitting the first time his foe (or something else) and the thief doesn’t get revealed if he misses.

back to us now: anet will not change their opinion and neither they will not revoke the “sneak attack” patch and they won’t do this in relation to backstab or tactical strike.

or simply reread my comment in your second thread concerning this problem?! really?!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Global-Functionality-Balance-1-1/first#post3611579

Tetsuyja.7805:

or simply reread my comment in your second thread concerning this problem?! really?!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Global-Functionality-Balance-1-1/first#post3611579

I’ll repeat my post too:

Why should stealth-openers get a reprieve that the average skill in GW2 does not have? Cool-downs are there to reward opponent’s for good counter-play; and clutch counter-play is the name of the game in GW2 because we have no dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. Stealth should be treated on the same level as any other skill in the game. It only makes sense.

My post brings up points to argue. Your post simply says “No, I don’t like it.” “No, I don’t like it,” is not an argument.

Tetsuyja.7805:

nevertheless i remind u on an old patch – there the behavior of sneak attack was fixed/patched/buffed whatever u want to describe it – the fact is anet changed sneak attack : the thief gets revealed after hitting the first time his foe (or something else) and the thief doesn’t get revealed if he misses.

That’s just how stealth currently works; that isn’t a property unique to any specific skill that is used while in stealth.

Tetsuyja.7805:

back to us now: anet will not change their opinion and neither they will not revoke the “sneak attack” patch and they won’t do this in relation to backstab or tactical strike.

I’ll continue my fight anyway. All offensive skills in this game should be put on an even playing field (inside and outside of stealth) for the sake of balance. You can defend ANet if you wish, but ANet clearly designed an imbalanced mechanic and it should be fixed.

User swagg must be eating too many bananas recently to suggest ridiculous changes. Cooldown on a thief. Less damage. Useless mechanics. I’m sure as many other people have told you, please stop posting, you’re wasting kilobytes.

Swagg.9236:

Tetsuyja.7805:

or simply reread my comment in your second thread concerning this problem?! really?!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Global-Functionality-Balance-1-1/first#post3611579

I’ll repeat my post too:

Why should stealth-openers get a reprieve that the average skill in GW2 does not have? Cool-downs are there to reward opponent’s for good counter-play; and clutch counter-play is the name of the game in GW2 because we have no dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. Stealth should be treated on the same level as any other skill in the game. It only makes sense.

My post brings up points to argue. Your post simply says “No, I don’t like it.” “No, I don’t like it,” is not an argument.

I’ll answer you. ALL #1 abilities in this game have no cooldown. There you go, have a cookie.

Can you please stop bumping these? If a thread stops receiving posts, then it needs to be let go.

Minto.9201:

Swagg.9236:

Tetsuyja.7805:

or simply reread my comment in your second thread concerning this problem?! really?!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Global-Functionality-Balance-1-1/first#post3611579

I’ll repeat my post too:

Why should stealth-openers get a reprieve that the average skill in GW2 does not have? Cool-downs are there to reward opponent’s for good counter-play; and clutch counter-play is the name of the game in GW2 because we have no dedicated healer/damage-mitigation class. Stealth should be treated on the same level as any other skill in the game. It only makes sense.

My post brings up points to argue. Your post simply says “No, I don’t like it.” “No, I don’t like it,” is not an argument.

I’ll answer you. ALL #1 abilities in this game have no cooldown. There you go, have a cookie.

Auto-attacks don’t normally daze/stun, immobilize, or inflict high damage. There is a clear difference between a Thief stealth-attack 1 skill and a regular auto-attack; not realizing that or defending the contrary is folly.

Updates to healing skills as well as number tweaking across the board once more.

[Withdraw] gets a functionality change because it’s a cancerous freebee heal that should be addressed. Because it is now a two-part healing skill, some healing-skill-based passive procs might need internal cool-downs if they don’t already have them. I also adjusted the healing on some of the other healing skills to compensate for the Thief receiving a base HP increase.

This thread is so funny.
One random guy playes dev with hilarious suggestions.
Please…create your own game. This One here is obviously Not for you.

While I don’t necessarily like all of your suggestions, Swagg, at least you attempt to propose changes and have put a good amount of effort into this, which is commendable despite what all the people hating on your changes say.

Just wanted to put this here because so many people seem to actively hate you for suggesting changes to various things that they obviously treasure in their current state, instead of recognizing that you’re trying to create an entirely new meta based around more skill builds and less builds that focus on reducing the impact of skill and discussing your suggested changes in that context.

I’d start with:

Pistol Whip: No longer evades
Dagger #1 and Sword #1 damage reduced by 30% (including Stealth)
Black Powder: Now a dark field
Dagger Training: Also increases Backstab damage by 30%

Right now thieves do a ton of damage with their auto-attack and can conserve their initiative for movement and defensive abilities. Reducing auto-attack damage now forces them to make more tactical decisions.

Domey.9804:

This thread is so funny.
One random guy playes dev with hilarious suggestions.
Please…create your own game. This One here is obviously Not for you.

" Creativity is a beautiful art having fun ”

Although this is a much better job than I’ve seen others do at trying to balance the thief it still doesn’t work imo. The main problem with thief and the problem that’s creating all of its other problems is initiative. You would have to take initiative away from the thief and recreate every weapon set for it to work. Just my 2cents.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

While I don’t necessarily like all of your suggestions, Swagg, at least you attempt to propose changes and have put a good amount of effort into this, which is commendable despite what all the people hating on your changes say.

Just wanted to put this here because so many people seem to actively hate you for suggesting changes to various things that they obviously treasure in their current state, instead of recognizing that you’re trying to create an entirely new meta based around more skill builds and less builds that focus on reducing the impact of skill and discussing your suggested changes in that context.

The thing that bothers me is that he’s bringing back these threads when they’re clearly dying out for good reason. The conversation is over; please stop bumping these.

Black Box.9312:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

While I don’t necessarily like all of your suggestions, Swagg, at least you attempt to propose changes and have put a good amount of effort into this, which is commendable despite what all the people hating on your changes say.

Just wanted to put this here because so many people seem to actively hate you for suggesting changes to various things that they obviously treasure in their current state, instead of recognizing that you’re trying to create an entirely new meta based around more skill builds and less builds that focus on reducing the impact of skill and discussing your suggested changes in that context.

The thing that bothers me is that he’s bringing back these threads when they’re clearly dying out for good reason. The conversation is over; please stop bumping these.

I’ve never heard a single good reason to stop. The people who want me to stop aren’t really arguing anything, but rather they either just express vague complaints and opinions or just go full ad hominem/insult. Only one without resolve would give up after someone walks up to them and delivers baseless insults about one’s contribution. I have resolve.

In any case, [Withdraw] is a cancerous skill (not unlike [Healing Signet] or even [Shelter]), and it needed to be addressed. Would you rather I have made 20 individual threads filled with the trickling ideas that I’ve developed over my time here or would you rather me just make a single thread and bump that instead? Obviously the latter is a much more organized and convenient strategy for expressing ideas.

Swagg.9236:

Obviously the latter is a much more organized and convenient strategy for expressing ideas.

Except you lump it with things like shaving 8 damage off infiltrator’s strike.

Swagg.9236:

Black Box.9312:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

While I don’t necessarily like all of your suggestions, Swagg, at least you attempt to propose changes and have put a good amount of effort into this, which is commendable despite what all the people hating on your changes say.

Just wanted to put this here because so many people seem to actively hate you for suggesting changes to various things that they obviously treasure in their current state, instead of recognizing that you’re trying to create an entirely new meta based around more skill builds and less builds that focus on reducing the impact of skill and discussing your suggested changes in that context.

The thing that bothers me is that he’s bringing back these threads when they’re clearly dying out for good reason. The conversation is over; please stop bumping these.

I’ve never heard a single good reason to stop. The people who want me to stop aren’t really arguing anything, but rather they either just express vague complaints and opinions or just go full ad hominem/insult. Only one without resolve would give up after someone walks up to them and delivers baseless insults about one’s contribution. I have resolve.

In any case, [Withdraw] is a cancerous skill (not unlike [Healing Signet] or even [Shelter]), and it needed to be addressed. Would you rather I have made 20 individual threads filled with the trickling ideas that I’ve developed over my time here or would you rather me just make a single thread and bump that instead? Obviously the latter is a much more organized and convenient strategy for expressing ideas.

When a thread is no longer being bumped due to natural conversation, by rule of logic the conversation is no longer active. Because of this, there’s no reason to keep bringing the thread back when people are no longer interested in the conversation at hand.

If you read my previous post, you will see that there is no ad hominem argument. I simply told you that you should stop bumping dead threads.

Thedenofsin.7340:

I’d start with:

Pistol Whip: No longer evades

The thing about this is that while the ideal offensive attack never has evasion frames, not even a medium armor class with medium level health would probably survive the passive, ambient damage spam associated with team combat in this game. If [Pistol Whip] had no evasion frames, it would probably just be a button that a Thief pressed if he wanted to bid farewell to this cruel world.

HOWEVER, that by no means that [Pistol Whip] with evasion frames is balanced by any stretch of the imagination. The best way to properly balance [Pistol Whip] is to throw out the current functionality entirely (because it’s that bad) and make a new one—which I’ve done. I’ve also made the attacks quick enough (and removed the self-root) so as to make them fair for opponents to counter without turning them into suicide buttons for the Thief if he/she were to use it.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Dagger #1 and Sword #1 damage reduced by 30% (including Stealth)

I’ve already reduced the damage of dagger and sword auto-attacks and readjusted the damage and effects of the stealth skills.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Black Powder: Now a dark field

I’ve heard this suggestion before and while I do think that [Black Powder] is stupid strong, I’m not sure that completely stripping the d/p of on-demand stealth is the best option (especially since [Heartseeker] would be getting a damage nerf). I was thinking of reducing [Black Powder]’s duration by a second, though.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Dagger Training: Also increases Backstab damage by 30%

Why?

Thedenofsin.7340:

Right now thieves do a ton of damage with their auto-attack and can conserve their initiative for movement and defensive abilities. Reducing auto-attack damage now forces them to make more tactical decisions.

That’s true and that was one of my hopes for this thread.