Guild Wars 2

BrunoBRS.5178:

silentnight warrior.2714:

TheBandicoot.5294:

Yes sure, because if you avoided one IS, FS, LS, SS or whatever the thief gets back the initiative spent in the process, right. Gosh, how can people be so blind? A thief fuels his attacks with initiative which is a global unified countdown system across ALL weapon sets!! if he spends initiative on one skill, he literally makes all skills go on a cooldown. And if you manage to avoid a skill which costs iniative, you successfully made the thief spend initative for nothing.

And then he uses the same skill right again. Iniciative gain is too high and the penality for missing is to low.

i should link you to this thread on the thief forums where a new thief player tried your mentality, and found out that he’d run out of initiative and die before anything meaningful was achieved.

i swear people don’t realize that keeping the initiative pool high enough to have options is not an easy thing.

I play thief everyday and i can say that its not hard to keep iniciative high enough to use the skill i want.

Narkodx.1472:

silentnight warrior.2714:

“You guys clearly need to learn what it means to play thief properly without relying on spamming skills or cheesy builds”

This is what i want.

You are clearly inexperienced. No thief spams one skill to kill the opponent. PERIOD
If you die to a thief spamming one skill you know where you are on the skill level totem pole right? The bottom

You guys realize this thread will literally go nowhere right!?

None of you are presenting any thoughtful arguments. They are not going to nerf the profession because you are bad at PvP. If you want to make meaningful changes to the class/game then actually give something back to the profession

6 second cool down or increasing initiative on skills used consecutively is moronic – even if something like that were implemented what will you gjve back? Flat nerfs with no compensation are not happening. L-2-P

Who talked about losing to a thief pressing only one button?

Raven.9603:

thief mobility is not the problem. thieves are squishy, the mobility is basically a class survival mechanic. their unlimited in-combat restealthing could use a change, but thats a GW2 design flaw and any limits on incombat stealth should come with a base survivability increase for thieves (eg more HP).

warrior mobility is a huge problem and deserves a few threads of its own. dogged march, holebrek runes and lemongrass is basically unkiteable and is arguably the most common wvw setup. add that in with all the gap closers available as both weapon and utility skills.

why is the class that has the most health, the most armor, the easiest access to huge sustain, and has the most (or nearly the most) damage simply because unlike everyone else, they can afford to gear for it…. why is that class also the class that is the most impervious to being kited? if any class should have poor mobility, should it not be the illiterate overweight lumbering lards with their giant plate mail and hammers?

there is literally no sacrifice in playing a warrior. big damage, big survivability, big sustain, big mobility, stability, CC, they even gave you very reliable condition removal. the only advantage other players have against warriors is the breathtaking amount of autism exhibited by so many players of the warrior profession.

Why you dont create a topic about that?
By the way you can see the problem with warrior and cannot see the problem with thief… right…

silentnight warrior.2714:

Narkodx.1472:

silentnight warrior.2714:

“You guys clearly need to learn what it means to play thief properly without relying on spamming skills or cheesy builds”

This is what i want.

You are clearly inexperienced. No thief spams one skill to kill the opponent. PERIOD
If you die to a thief spamming one skill you know where you are on the skill level totem pole right? The bottom

You guys realize this thread will literally go nowhere right!?

None of you are presenting any thoughtful arguments. They are not going to nerf the profession because you are bad at PvP. If you want to make meaningful changes to the class/game then actually give something back to the profession

6 second cool down or increasing initiative on skills used consecutively is moronic – even if something like that were implemented what will you gjve back? Flat nerfs with no compensation are not happening. L-2-P

Who talked about losing to a thief pressing only one button?

if you don’t lose to one, then it’s not an issue, is it? and if it’s not an issue, it doesn’t need a nerf.

/thread

BrunoBRS.5178:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Narkodx.1472:

silentnight warrior.2714:

“You guys clearly need to learn what it means to play thief properly without relying on spamming skills or cheesy builds”

This is what i want.

You are clearly inexperienced. No thief spams one skill to kill the opponent. PERIOD
If you die to a thief spamming one skill you know where you are on the skill level totem pole right? The bottom

You guys realize this thread will literally go nowhere right!?

None of you are presenting any thoughtful arguments. They are not going to nerf the profession because you are bad at PvP. If you want to make meaningful changes to the class/game then actually give something back to the profession

6 second cool down or increasing initiative on skills used consecutively is moronic – even if something like that were implemented what will you gjve back? Flat nerfs with no compensation are not happening. L-2-P

Who talked about losing to a thief pressing only one button?

if you don’t lose to one, then it’s not an issue, is it? and if it’s not an issue, it doesn’t need a nerf.

/thread

Again, who talked about that?

Raven.9603:

thief mobility is not the problem. thieves are squishy, the mobility is basically a class survival mechanic. their unlimited in-combat restealthing could use a change, but thats a GW2 design flaw and any limits on incombat stealth should come with a base survivability increase for thieves (eg more HP).

warrior mobility is a huge problem and deserves a few threads of its own. dogged march, holebrek runes and lemongrass is basically unkiteable and is arguably the most common wvw setup. add that in with all the gap closers available as both weapon and utility skills.

why is the class that has the most health, the most armor, the easiest access to huge sustain, and has the most (or nearly the most) damage simply because unlike everyone else, they can afford to gear for it…. why is that class also the class that is the most impervious to being kited? if any class should have poor mobility, should it not be the illiterate overweight lumbering lards with their giant plate mail and hammers?

there is literally no sacrifice in playing a warrior. big damage, big survivability, big sustain, big mobility, stability, CC, they even gave you very reliable condition removal. the only advantage other players have against warriors is the breathtaking amount of autism exhibited by so many players of the warrior profession.

Easy now. not every warrior is an “illiterate, overweight lumbering lard.”

Elementalists easily have as much sustain as Warriors if geared properly.

Thieves, Rangers, and Mesmers all have stealths that break target locks.

While warriors do have decent sustain and high damage, they are also the most visible of all of the classes except Guardian. They are mobile, but very straightforward, and as any other class, once you lock a warrior you will know exactly where they are unless they die or escape.

In a combat oriented game, that is a significant disadvantage. If they were perpetually visible AND melted or were extremely susceptible to anything surpassing clever rotations or focus, then they would be useless. their meatiness is their sole advantage. you cannot walk up to them and hammer away.

They can. That’s their job. your job is to make that impossible for them. You lose if they get in close or draw line of sight for too long.

Knowing when to disengage is also a combat tactic. Because of this, their mobility is fine as is. They have two weapons, borderline three, that make them crazy fast. the others dont do a thing for their speediness. It’s a bit unreasonable to think they are too fast when you can see which way they are running, when thieves and mesmers can vanish outright, rangers also to a lesser extent, with impunity.

I play warrior. A good thief downs me. A bad one melts. One that makes mistakes gets injured.
A good mesmer, to me, is untouchable. A bad one melts. Again, one that makes mistakes gets injured.

I fought a good ranger yesterday. She pushed me back when I was going to savage leap, and binding roots’d me when a teammate came near, enough for a combo setup.

I melted.

I fought another ranger later on that sat on steps and auto attacked. I made his life hell.

Good elementalists sustain against me practically for hours.

I have nothing against those classes, but it seems that just because people play warrior and happen to win because it has the most simple playstyle doesn’t mean it is overpowered.

It just means that killing one requires more forethought.

In the case of thieves, it should be enough argument that a good thief in a 1v1 will -never- down, and a good thief will never allow 2v1 to happen.

they have poor mobility compared to warriors, yes, but they’re incredibly good at getting the kitten out of harm’s way.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

While warriors do have decent sustain and high damage, they are also the most visible of all of the classes except Guardian.

Most visible? What the kitten are you talking about, the most visible “class” are norns… also please enlighten me and tell me more about how other classes have the same sustain + damage as a warrior. I would also want to hear more about how warriors are less of a damage sponge than necromancers…

If you nerf thief mobility, you will see many, many more shadow arts stealth thieves. Ask yourself: Is that what you really want?

silentnight warrior.2714:

BrunoBRS.5178:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Narkodx.1472:

silentnight warrior.2714:

“You guys clearly need to learn what it means to play thief properly without relying on spamming skills or cheesy builds”

This is what i want.

You are clearly inexperienced. No thief spams one skill to kill the opponent. PERIOD
If you die to a thief spamming one skill you know where you are on the skill level totem pole right? The bottom

You guys realize this thread will literally go nowhere right!?

None of you are presenting any thoughtful arguments. They are not going to nerf the profession because you are bad at PvP. If you want to make meaningful changes to the class/game then actually give something back to the profession

6 second cool down or increasing initiative on skills used consecutively is moronic – even if something like that were implemented what will you gjve back? Flat nerfs with no compensation are not happening. L-2-P

Who talked about losing to a thief pressing only one button?

if you don’t lose to one, then it’s not an issue, is it? and if it’s not an issue, it doesn’t need a nerf.

/thread

Again, who talked about that?

look, either you have a problem with thieves that spam, or you don’t. if you don’t, there’s no need for nerfs. if you do, as everyone (including yourself) pointed out, a thief that spams skills is a bad, inefficient thief.

Mayama.1854:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

While warriors do have decent sustain and high damage, they are also the most visible of all of the classes except Guardian.

Most visible? What the kitten are you talking about, the most visible “class” are norns… also please enlighten me and tell me more about how other classes have the same sustain + damage as a warrior. I would also want to hear more about how warriors are less of a damage sponge than necromancers…

I never said any classes have the same sustain and damage of a Warrior.

The most visible race are Charr, since Norn can [Become the Snow Leopard].

But races were not what I was talking about. I was speaking about professions.

Warriors have the most-telegraphed skills and cannot stealth.

I have nothing for you regarding necromancers. They seem to be shoehorned into a support role unless you are really, really, reallly good with them, and they need a mobility buff.

That being said, the fact that Warriors are hard hitting and moderately quick can be somewhat mitigated with strategic stealth.

They get in close though, and then there’s problems.

BrunoBRS.5178:

silentnight warrior.2714:

BrunoBRS.5178:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Narkodx.1472:

silentnight warrior.2714:

“You guys clearly need to learn what it means to play thief properly without relying on spamming skills or cheesy builds”

This is what i want.

You are clearly inexperienced. No thief spams one skill to kill the opponent. PERIOD
If you die to a thief spamming one skill you know where you are on the skill level totem pole right? The bottom

You guys realize this thread will literally go nowhere right!?

None of you are presenting any thoughtful arguments. They are not going to nerf the profession because you are bad at PvP. If you want to make meaningful changes to the class/game then actually give something back to the profession

6 second cool down or increasing initiative on skills used consecutively is moronic – even if something like that were implemented what will you gjve back? Flat nerfs with no compensation are not happening. L-2-P

Who talked about losing to a thief pressing only one button?

if you don’t lose to one, then it’s not an issue, is it? and if it’s not an issue, it doesn’t need a nerf.

/thread

Again, who talked about that?

look, either you have a problem with thieves that spam, or you don’t. if you don’t, there’s no need for nerfs. if you do, as everyone (including yourself) pointed out, a thief that spams skills is a bad, inefficient thief.

Just a few points:

I can kill warriors with thiefs, mesmers, necros, rangers, elem. That will say that i dont have problems with warriors, so in your logic warrior is fine, no nerfs needed.

In my logic warrior needed to be punished for missing bursts skills. Every class should be punished for that.
Thiefs can avoid this issue because iniciative is to easy to control / gain.

The fact is it should be a more severe punisment for thiefs since the beginning just because they can spam the same skill over and over.
They should be able to do that, but if they miss they should have a bigger punishment.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Just a few points:

I can kill warriors with thiefs, mesmers, necros, rangers, elem. That will say that i dont have problems with warriors, so in your logic warrior is fine, no nerfs needed.

In my logic warrior needed to be punished for missing bursts skills. Every class should be punished for that.
Thiefs can avoid this issue because iniciative is to easy to control / gain.

The fact is it should be a more severe punisment for thiefs since the beginning just because they can spam the same skill over and over.
They should be able to do that, but if they miss they should have a bigger punishment.

warriors lose adrenaline when they miss their burst. thieves lose initiative. it’s the same thing. so for the love of god stop this stupid crusade against thieves. anyone misses a skill, the skill goes on cooldown. a thief misses a skill, their global cooldown goes down, like everyone else’s. there’s absolutely nothing else to this discussion.

>>They should be able to do that, but if they miss they should have a bigger punishment.

They have a punishment. They missed and just blew that INI. How about this. Every time a warrior misses with an attack that skills cool down is doubled?

You know punishment for missing. Why should the cool down be the same for an attack that missed on one that hit?

BrunoBRS.5178:

warriors lose adrenaline when they miss their burst. thieves lose initiative. it’s the same thing. so for the love of god stop this stupid crusade against thieves. anyone misses a skill, the skill goes on cooldown. a thief misses a skill, their global cooldown goes down, like everyone else’s. there’s absolutely nothing else to this discussion.

Its different you cant shut down a thief with perma chill and inititative is the only reason why you cant play a block mesmer. So the initiative system gives an advantage. Saying that its equal is simply not true.

Mayama.1854:

BrunoBRS.5178:

warriors lose adrenaline when they miss their burst. thieves lose initiative. it’s the same thing. so for the love of god stop this stupid crusade against thieves. anyone misses a skill, the skill goes on cooldown. a thief misses a skill, their global cooldown goes down, like everyone else’s. there’s absolutely nothing else to this discussion.

Its different you cant shut down a thief with perma chill and inititative is the only reason why you cant play a block mesmer. So the initiative system gives an advantage. Saying that its equal is simply not true.

it’s a tradeoff. we are less punished by chill, but we have one cooldown for all 10 skills. ever noticed how thief builds only highlight a single weapon set? that’s because swapping weapons as a thief doesn’t do anything to our ini pool unless you bring a grandmaster trait, and even then it’s not free 5 skills. so while you can rotate through all your weapon skills, swap, rotate through those, swap back, repeat, thieves have to manage a single set, because we can’t keep this “flow” of using all skills and swapping weapons.

we get the choice to use any weapon skill we have, at the cost of not being able to use a bunch of them in quick succession (contrary to popular belief).

an example to put it into context:

thief can use headshot 3 times in a row. annoying? yeah. unfair? no. because now he is locked out of all other 7 weapon skills that have cooldowns. he chose to spend all his weapon cooldown on shutting someone down, and now he has to wait a few seconds until he has access to any skill again. meanwhile, the person he shut down still has at least 5 skills that are unaffected by headshot.

example 2, if a thief misses cloak and dagger, he can opt to do so again, but regardless of whether he hits or not the second time, he doesn’t have any more CD left. so if he misses the second CnD, he can’t swap to shortbow and infiltrator strike out of it, he can’t use flanking strike, or heartseeker, or anything. using a single skill twice locked the thief out of 8 skills at once.

how can this be considered spamming and free of punishment?

BrunoBRS.5178:

Mayama.1854:

BrunoBRS.5178:

warriors lose adrenaline when they miss their burst. thieves lose initiative. it’s the same thing. so for the love of god stop this stupid crusade against thieves. anyone misses a skill, the skill goes on cooldown. a thief misses a skill, their global cooldown goes down, like everyone else’s. there’s absolutely nothing else to this discussion.

Its different you cant shut down a thief with perma chill and inititative is the only reason why you cant play a block mesmer. So the initiative system gives an advantage. Saying that its equal is simply not true.

it’s a tradeoff. we are less punished by chill, but we have one cooldown for all 10 skills. ever noticed how thief builds only highlight a single weapon set? that’s because swapping weapons as a thief doesn’t do anything to our ini pool unless you bring a grandmaster trait, and even then it’s not free 5 skills. so while you can rotate through all your weapon skills, swap, rotate through those, swap back, repeat, thieves have to manage a single set, because we can’t keep this “flow” of using all skills and swapping weapons.

we get the choice to use any weapon skill we have, at the cost of not being able to use a bunch of them in quick succession (contrary to popular belief).

an example to put it into context:

thief can use headshot 3 times in a row. annoying? yeah. unfair? no. because now he is locked out of all other 7 weapon skills that have cooldowns. he chose to spend all his weapon cooldown on shutting someone down, and now he has to wait a few seconds until he has access to any skill again. meanwhile, the person he shut down still has at least 5 skills that are unaffected by headshot.

example 2, if a thief misses cloak and dagger, he can opt to do so again, but regardless of whether he hits or not the second time, he doesn’t have any more CD left. so if he misses the second CnD, he can’t swap to shortbow and infiltrator strike out of it, he can’t use flanking strike, or heartseeker, or anything. using a single skill twice locked the thief out of 8 skills at once.

how can this be considered spamming and free of punishment?

Slowly you are getting there.

There ARE skills that punish the thief for spaming them. Not all skills do that.
In the beginning thief needed to use iniciative management with traits to be able to spam skills.
After the iniciative buff that is no longer true.

Thats why i sugested a penality for using the same movement skill in the next 6/7 seconds after using it for the first time.

When, as you said, thiefs start to using pistol 3 skill or sword 2 only 3 times in a row and get without iniciative thats is a good thing because it punish thiefs from spamming. Right now thats not true.

Other thing, you only need iniciative to 4 skills in every thief weapon, not 5. Even the special on stealth abilities on number 1 skill like backstab dont consume iniciative.
And you can replenish your iniciative completely in 15 seconds (assuming max iniciative) without doing nothing. With traits you take way less.

By the way none of your movement skills (ports) and iniciative are afected by chill so it makes even more sense to punish spaming this skills.

Thief moblity
Thieves in this game
- do not have highest dmg
- have lowest HP pool
- medium armor
- no protection
- no aegis
- no reliable stability
- no reliable chain CC
- probably worst healing capacity
- worst ranged set (if you want to do any dmg you WILL have to go in melee)
- not best aoe dmg and coverage
- one of the worst group support capability
- unlike other classes have actual position requirement (see backstab) to do dmg
- don’t have persistent army of AI that can carry them (see engi)
- do not have ANY means to bunker in pvp (see guardians, banner warriors)

The ONLY reason why people take thieves in tpvp IS their moblity. They have terrible surivival compared to many other classes.
Nerfing mobility would make class absolutely undesired for any kind of pvp or wvw. They can’t bunker, other classes do more dmg than them, their aoe is pathetic, their condi pressure is a joke in comparison, they are not even best duelists and it is usually waste of time to attack point by yourself as thief.

What should thieves do if moblity was nerfed? People would just bring mesmers and more eles and thieves would be just deleted from pvp. Is that what you want to accomplish?

Spammable Spells
I think OP is missing the point that due to repeatable nature of the thief weapon spells, those spells are kept very weak in comparison to weapon sets of other classes. That is why thieves are often forced to chain few skills just to do anything meaningful.

Ability to reset
You complain that they can go in fight and out? What else should they do with tools Anet gave them? They can’t stand mid fight like guards or wars due lack of survival, they can’t really do much dmg from far like engis or eles (cmon sb is so beaten it is a joke of weapon set now, literary only reason to use it is IA and pp was never viable, tnks anet).

Ability to stay on target
You have issue with their “stickiness” to the target? Well, their most dmg comes from melee(and is SINGLE target), they have positioning requirements unlike other classes, they can’t just run in circles and spam aoe nor they have massive chills and cripples to keep target in place. W/o shadow shot, IS etc. they would just get kited to oblivion (which already happens when you face ANY engi or smart ele).

If i play guardian or warrior and get kited, at least i can chain CC people and both wars and guards also have moblity moves. If i completely missed everything on war and guard, i just switch weapons and continue to attack or have enough survival to wait out the CDs. Heck, i don’t even need to chase target on guard or war, i can just spam aoe on point. Thief would just die.
The only reliable CC thief has is 1.5 sec stun on 45 sec CD and maybe immob from S/x. Dodge venom, 45 sec wasted. Dodge IS, he won’t be able to do it again unless he uses IR and IS again at which point he has 0 ini left to do anything but AA.

Steal is an issue? Can be dodged, is very predictable if you have some exp with/vs thief and is actually a CD that can be completely wasted unlike some other spells (sup combustive shot).

The sad part,based on the patches for the past year, devs will probably listen to this “suggestions” from OP as well and implement the proposed changes w/o any concern for thief players. Patches did nothing but methodically deleting every viable weapon set/build thieves had in pvp.

“Spammable Spells
I think OP is missing the point that due to repeatable nature of the thief weapon spells, those spells are kept very weak in comparison to weapon sets of other classes. That is why thieves are often forced to chain few skills just to do anything meaningful.”

My sugestions will not deny thiefs to spaming skills. It will punish them from abusing some skills. And thiefs can do as other professions do, use other movement spells to negate the iniciative penality.
The only class you can “compare” in movement spells are Guardians with their ports, they do port, blind and then they have a CD.
In every other class their movements are not instant and they are affected with chill / criple (except mesmer with ports but even those have CD and necro in DS but that skill have a good tell and a CD).

“Ability to reset
You complain that they can go in fight and out? What else should they do with tools Anet gave them? They can’t stand mid fight like guards or wars due lack of survival, they can’t really do much dmg from far like engis or eles (cmon sb is so beaten it is a joke of weapon set now, literary only reason to use it is IA and pp was never viable, tnks anet).”

I didn´t complain about this. In fact the penality should only exist in combat mode. Out of combat thiefs should spam what they want.

“Ability to stay on target
You have issue with their “stickiness” to the target? Well, their most dmg comes from melee(and is SINGLE target), they have positioning requirements unlike other classes”

Actually thief can deny good positioning to other classes with ports (again one more strength with thiefs ports) and they will be buffed to deal damage to two targets at once and they dont said anything about decreasing damage on attacks so its a win for thiefs.

“Steal is an issue? Can be dodged, is very predictable if you have some exp with/vs thief and is actually a CD that can be completely wasted unlike some other spells (sup combustive shot).”

Steal is very strong but have a CD. I dont have problems with steal. (And traited steal is amazing)

Decrease our mobility?? then give us more armor, max health and we can be warriors! Difference warrior <—> thief is mobility at the price of survivability. Warrior hits just as hard as thieves on a non moving target, however thief is able to do more damage because mobility allows him to land more attacks than warrior. That is the class mechanic. deal. with. it.

Prince.7198:

Decrease our mobility?? then give us more armor, max health and we can be warriors! Difference warrior <—> thief is mobility at the price of survivability. Warrior hits just as hard as thieves on a non moving target, however thief is able to do more damage because mobility allows him to land more attacks than warrior. That is the class mechanic. deal. with. it.

Nobody talked about decreasing mobility. Just introducing the need to not spam it.

whoops that was on the other page =p….

silentnight warrior.2714:

Prince.7198:

Decrease our mobility?? then give us more armor, max health and we can be warriors! Difference warrior <—> thief is mobility at the price of survivability. Warrior hits just as hard as thieves on a non moving target, however thief is able to do more damage because mobility allows him to land more attacks than warrior. That is the class mechanic. deal. with. it.

Nobody talked about decreasing mobility. Just introducing the need to not spam it.

So introducing the need not to spam mobility isn’t actually decreasing mobility? Go on.

silentnight warrior.2714:

“Spammable Spells
I think OP is missing the point that due to repeatable nature of the thief weapon spells, those spells are kept very weak in comparison to weapon sets of other classes. That is why thieves are often forced to chain few skills just to do anything meaningful.”

My sugestions will not deny thiefs to spaming skills. It will punish them from abusing some skills. And thiefs can do as other professions do, use other movement spells to negate the iniciative penality.
The only class you can “compare” in movement spells are Guardians with their ports, they do port, blind and then they have a CD.
In every other class their movements are not instant and they are affected with chill / criple (except mesmer with ports but even those have CD and necro in DS but that skill have a good tell and a CD).

“Ability to reset
You complain that they can go in fight and out? What else should they do with tools Anet gave them? They can’t stand mid fight like guards or wars due lack of survival, they can’t really do much dmg from far like engis or eles (cmon sb is so beaten it is a joke of weapon set now, literary only reason to use it is IA and pp was never viable, tnks anet).”

I didn´t complain about this. In fact the penality should only exist in combat mode. Out of combat thiefs should spam what they want.

“Ability to stay on target
You have issue with their “stickiness” to the target? Well, their most dmg comes from melee(and is SINGLE target), they have positioning requirements unlike other classes”

Actually thief can deny good positioning to other classes with ports (again one more strength with thiefs ports) and they will be buffed to deal damage to two targets at once and they dont said anything about decreasing damage on attacks so its a win for thiefs.

“Steal is an issue? Can be dodged, is very predictable if you have some exp with/vs thief and is actually a CD that can be completely wasted unlike some other spells (sup combustive shot).”

Steal is very strong but have a CD. I dont have problems with steal. (And traited steal is amazing)

There are no skills that can be abused on thief. Have you seen the nerfs they’ve done over the past few months including the upcoming ones?

-Sb #3 spam? Gone, disco took over.
-Sword/dagger #3 spam? Won’t be gone, but won’t be executed as much after the sept patch.
-Heartseeker spam? You shouldn’t be dying to this, and if they have to run away using this then take it as a win.
-Pistol whip spam? Costs 6 initiative and has a very obvious wind up animation. Additionally for this skill to do anything they have to be pretty glassy which means if they miss it simple cc or conditions and they will either run or die trying.
-cluster bomb spam? Umm… you can’t hit them?
-Choking gas spam? Nuff said.
-Unload spam? Terrible damage and also, you can’t hit them?
-Death blossom spam? See above.
-CnD spam? What game mode can you do this in?
-Shadow strike spam? How about don’t run at them like a kitten.
-etc.

You really think you’re doing justice by nerfing our combat by saying it won’t effect us ooc? In that case if a warrior uses rush or whirling attack in combat to escape they are instead ported directly to jail and fined 100 gold.

The 2 target cap on dagger is not by any means a buff thief wanted or needs. It will not effect backstab, nor should it and from what I’m seeing it won’t effect our endurance gain so it does just about nothing but help deal with aa. Ever see a thief just hitting 1 and succeed? We can’t cycle our aa chain for long without completely exposing ourselves, it’s only for a little pressure and then we bounce.

You’re not thinking your nerfs through and its only making more people angry with you making this discussion go no where.

Jagstang.6912:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Prince.7198:

Decrease our mobility?? then give us more armor, max health and we can be warriors! Difference warrior <—> thief is mobility at the price of survivability. Warrior hits just as hard as thieves on a non moving target, however thief is able to do more damage because mobility allows him to land more attacks than warrior. That is the class mechanic. deal. with. it.

Nobody talked about decreasing mobility. Just introducing the need to not spam it.

So introducing the need not to spam mobility isn’t actually decreasing mobility? Go on.

In combat mobility? There would be no nerf. Just the need of using other gap closers in that window of time. And thief have options to do that even with weapon swap.

silentnight warrior.2714:

“Ability to reset
You complain that they can go in fight and out? What else should they do with tools Anet gave them? They can’t stand mid fight like guards or wars due lack of survival, they can’t really do much dmg from far like engis or eles (cmon sb is so beaten it is a joke of weapon set now, literary only reason to use it is IA and pp was never viable, tnks anet).”

I didn´t complain about this. In fact the penality should only exist in combat mode. Out of combat thiefs should spam what they want.

Coming from a warrior, if a thief was not able to reset once I locked onto him, they would guaranteed be dead.

Don’t kitten their class. It’s fine.

NinjaEd.3946:

silentnight warrior.2714:

“Spammable Spells
I think OP is missing the point that due to repeatable nature of the thief weapon spells, those spells are kept very weak in comparison to weapon sets of other classes. That is why thieves are often forced to chain few skills just to do anything meaningful.”

My sugestions will not deny thiefs to spaming skills. It will punish them from abusing some skills. And thiefs can do as other professions do, use other movement spells to negate the iniciative penality.
The only class you can “compare” in movement spells are Guardians with their ports, they do port, blind and then they have a CD.
In every other class their movements are not instant and they are affected with chill / criple (except mesmer with ports but even those have CD and necro in DS but that skill have a good tell and a CD).

“Ability to reset
You complain that they can go in fight and out? What else should they do with tools Anet gave them? They can’t stand mid fight like guards or wars due lack of survival, they can’t really do much dmg from far like engis or eles (cmon sb is so beaten it is a joke of weapon set now, literary only reason to use it is IA and pp was never viable, tnks anet).”

I didn´t complain about this. In fact the penality should only exist in combat mode. Out of combat thiefs should spam what they want.

“Ability to stay on target
You have issue with their “stickiness” to the target? Well, their most dmg comes from melee(and is SINGLE target), they have positioning requirements unlike other classes”

Actually thief can deny good positioning to other classes with ports (again one more strength with thiefs ports) and they will be buffed to deal damage to two targets at once and they dont said anything about decreasing damage on attacks so its a win for thiefs.

“Steal is an issue? Can be dodged, is very predictable if you have some exp with/vs thief and is actually a CD that can be completely wasted unlike some other spells (sup combustive shot).”

Steal is very strong but have a CD. I dont have problems with steal. (And traited steal is amazing)

There are no skills that can be abused on thief. Have you seen the nerfs they’ve done over the past few months including the upcoming ones?

-Sb #3 spam? Gone, disco took over.
-Sword/dagger #3 spam? Won’t be gone, but won’t be executed as much after the sept patch.
-Heartseeker spam? You shouldn’t be dying to this, and if they have to run away using this then take it as a win.
-Pistol whip spam? Costs 6 initiative and has a very obvious wind up animation. Additionally for this skill to do anything they have to be pretty glassy which means if they miss it simple cc or conditions and they will either run or die trying.
-cluster bomb spam? Umm… you can’t hit them?
-Choking gas spam? Nuff said.
-Unload spam? Terrible damage and also, you can’t hit them?
-Death blossom spam? See above.
-CnD spam? What game mode can you do this in?
-Shadow strike spam? How about don’t run at them like a kitten.
-etc.

You really think you’re doing justice by nerfing our combat by saying it won’t effect us ooc? In that case if a warrior uses rush or whirling attack in combat to escape they are instead ported directly to jail and fined 100 gold.

The 2 target cap on dagger is not by any means a buff thief wanted or needs. It will not effect backstab, nor should it and from what I’m seeing it won’t effect our endurance gain so it does just about nothing but help deal with aa. Ever see a thief just hitting 1 and succeed? We can’t cycle our aa chain for long without completely exposing ourselves, it’s only for a little pressure and then we bounce.

You’re not thinking your nerfs through and its only making more people angry with you making this discussion go no where.

The issue is with spaming movement skills.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Actually thief can deny good positioning to other classes with ports

I think you don’t really know what “good positioning” means. Just because a person is up on a cliff doesn’t mean they automatically have “good positioning.”

Azure The Heartless.3261:

silentnight warrior.2714:

“Ability to reset
You complain that they can go in fight and out? What else should they do with tools Anet gave them? They can’t stand mid fight like guards or wars due lack of survival, they can’t really do much dmg from far like engis or eles (cmon sb is so beaten it is a joke of weapon set now, literary only reason to use it is IA and pp was never viable, tnks anet).”

I didn´t complain about this. In fact the penality should only exist in combat mode. Out of combat thiefs should spam what they want.

Coming from a warrior, if a thief was not able to reset once I locked onto him, they would guaranteed be dead.

Don’t kitten their class. It’s fine.

I didn’t say anything about reset. The skills i mentioned require target to be used (attack).

Chicago Jack.5647:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Actually thief can deny good positioning to other classes with ports

I think you don’t really know what “good positioning” means. Just because a person is up on a cliff doesn’t mean they automatically have “good positioning.”

Right, because against that kind of movement there is no good positioning.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

silentnight warrior.2714:

“Ability to reset
You complain that they can go in fight and out? What else should they do with tools Anet gave them? They can’t stand mid fight like guards or wars due lack of survival, they can’t really do much dmg from far like engis or eles (cmon sb is so beaten it is a joke of weapon set now, literary only reason to use it is IA and pp was never viable, tnks anet).”

I didn´t complain about this. In fact the penality should only exist in combat mode. Out of combat thiefs should spam what they want.

Coming from a warrior, if a thief was not able to reset once I locked onto him, they would guaranteed be dead.

Don’t kitten their class. It’s fine.

I didn’t say anything about reset. The skills i mentioned require target to be used (attack).

My mistake then. I assumed you were asking for revealed when in combat.

silentnight warrior.2714:

My sugestions will not deny thiefs to spaming skills. It will punish them from abusing some skills. And thiefs can do as other professions do, use other movement spells to negate the iniciative penality.
The only class you can “compare” in movement spells are Guardians with their ports, they do port, blind and then they have a CD.
In every other class their movements are not instant and they are affected with chill / criple (except mesmer with ports but even those have CD and necro in DS but that skill have a good tell and a CD).

Yes, your suggestion DOES deny thief spamming spells, they would have to masisvely buff numbers on those spells to make up for limited use of those which, trust me, nobody will like. It doesn’t matter if it should apply to some or all spells, the fact stays that those spells are kept weak BECAUSE they can be repeated.

You say, thieves should use their moblity spells to avoid initiative penality, which are? Please elaborate? If thief is locked in 1 weapon set, he has only 1 (port) spell. Also, read what i said: you can’t just take thief moblity away, they can’t survive being kited as other classes do, also other classes have viable ranged options while thieves don’t. Try to land a melee hit on anything while being chilled, especially backstab, i promise you you will want uninstall.

Um, thieves are also affected by chill, HS wouldn’t get you anywhere while you are chilled nor will you ever land backstab.

Thieves can do meaningful dmg only via melee SINGLE target spells, ranged spells are not an option (unlike for necro, mesmer, ele, ranger, guard to extend, warrior, engi).. so they have to stick to target. How do thieves deal with being kited?
- they have no stability to deal with knockbacks and fears (like guardians, warriors)
- their only reliable condi removal vs chilled/immob is either withdraw (which often displaces thief further away from target) or SA trait which bound to stealth which often requires melee hit and/or combination of spells which already punishes thief with initiative use
- they can’t just tank dmg while being kited (guards, warriors, necros, engis)
- they don’t have chain CC to keep someone in place (warriors, engis, necro, guards)
- they can’t just spam aoe and ranged like mentioned above
All they have is their mobility moves to stay on target. Take it away or nerf it in any way and thief is sitting duck doing 0 dmg and flipping over like a fly.

silentnight warrior.2714:

I didn´t complain about this. In fact the penality should only exist in combat mode. Out of combat thiefs should spam what they want.

Um, your suggestion directly affects thief moblity outside of combat, by a lot actually. Check IA costs please.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Actually thief can deny good positioning to other classes with ports (again one more strength with thiefs ports) and they will be buffed to deal damage to two targets at once and they dont said anything about decreasing damage on attacks so its a win for thiefs.

You have no idea what positional requirement on a thief is, do you? Check backtsab please. As far as dagger 2 target change is, it will literary only affect combat vs mesmer, i would rather have anet let dagger be single target and revert massive nerfs to thief survivability that will come with patch.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Steal is very strong but have a CD. I dont have problems with steal. (And traited steal is amazing)

You brought up steal as argument for your suggestions though. Thief F1 complements their moblity, warrior F1 complements their dmg, survival (if traited) and AoE (counter to kiting) etc., what’s your point? Let’s massively increase other classes CD because their F1 complements their strengh? Isn’t it what F1 spell suppose to do anyway? Blasphemy!

Original poster, from your first post and all the ones you have posted from there seem to all be showing that you have no idea how a thief works and are here for the sole reason that a thief killed you in pvp so now you want to complain. I don’t think you ‘get’ the profession at all. If you have an open character slot, I’d suggest making a thief and you will find out real quick that without the mobility, the profession is kitten.

Your 10 weapon skills (more if you are an engi or ele) all run off separate cooldowns. That means that you have 10 different skills you can use and there is no way of locking you out of them except with chill. Thieves do not have this luxury, instead we are able to use a few skills a few times in a row should we choose to. Most of our weapon skills are utility, meaning they offer us something like stealth or the ability to clean off a condition or whatever. We don’t have a huge hitting 4/5 skill like most professions do, instead we have a mechanic that works based off stealth and we have to position ourselves just right or it fails. You on the other hand, can face smash your 4/5 skills happily from where ever and still be able to kill us.

Our initiative system works off choices and not spamming. A spamming thief is a dead thief. We have to carefully prepare and work out attacks off our little pool of resource. If we miss with our CnD/Head Shot/whatever, yes we can try again but after that, our opponents already know that we cannot do anything else for awhile. They know what the plan of attack is and can easily avoid it. We don’t get to switch weapons with a fresh pool of initiative and that’s what keeps the system from being broken or unfair.

Please don’t come here posting ignorant posts about a profession you know nothing about and try to get it nerfed into the ground over a mechanic you deem is unfair.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Right, because against that kind of movement there is no good positioning.

Positioning does not mean, “I’m on a cliff, so you can’t get me.”

Positioning is the relation of you to your teammates, to your enemy, to your enemy’s teammates. It has a strong correlation to the different ranges on the skills in the game, and their peeling potential at given ranges and given certain conditions. This is a team game.

Of course, you can definitely post snide remarks all you want.

Just to people who just dont read the first topic:

I´m talking only about:

• Infiltrator strike (sword 2 skill).

• Shadow Shot (d/p 3 skill).

This skills require a target to be used so they are not used to escape.

i´m not talking about HS (it can be chilled/criple) or IA (high cost / low spam) or Steal (have CD) or IS (have CD)

silentnight warrior.2714:

Just to people who just dont read the first topic:

I´m talking only about:

• Infiltrator strike (sword 2 skill).

• Shadow Shot (d/p 3 skill).

This skills require a target to be used so they are not used to escape.

i´m not talking about HS (it can be chilled/criple) or IA (high cost / low spam) or Steal (have CD) or IS (have CD)

and yet, your suggestion affects ALL initiative skills. you can’t be so blind that you don’t see it in your own argument.

but let’s entertain you for a bit:

• infiltrator strike: thief misses it, thief has to spend more initiative to port all the way back to the original location (and it can be interrupted now, since it has a cast time after people like you were QQing about it) before they can even try again. infiltrator strike is not a skill thief uses to chase a running target, it’s a skill they use to engage, and to disengage when things go badly. total cost for spamming this skill: 5 ini per attempt, not to mention being sent back and thus losing target.

• shadow shot: has all the weaknesses of any projectile attack. you can reflect, dodge (it has a really obvious animation), LOS, freaking sidestep, outrun, anything. costs 4 ini per attempt, and a D/P thief that wastes too much initiative trying to connect shadow shot will be dead if it finally lands, because they’ll have no ini for black powder + HS.

seriously, OP, if you’re literally the only person in a thread that’s crossed the 100 post mark that thinks you’re right, and even people that do not play thief think you’re wrong, then maybe it’s time to rethink things.

silentnight warrior.2714:

When, as you said, thiefs start to using pistol 3 skill or sword 2 only 3 times in a row and get without iniciative thats is a good thing because it punish thiefs from spamming. Right now thats not true.

?

How is that not true?

Pistol three X3 is 12 initiative,

Infil strike X3 is 15.

For a gap closer? By the time the thief gets to you after whiffing twice, he’d be a sandbag.

Spamming is already heavily punished.

God this forum is getting more ridiculous every day.

Always a frustrated roamer trying to nerf all their profession don’t have.

ANET GIVE SHOUTS OR BANNERS TO THIEVES!!

SoLeciTO.3490:

God this forum is getting more ridiculous every day.

Always a frustrated roamer trying to nerf all their profession don’t have.

ANET GIVE SHOUTS OR BANNERS TO THIEVES!!

healing shout thief > venom thief

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Thieves were designed to be mobile my frands! But Vee Wee thinks blinks are thuper overpowered! Blinking away is fine! Blinking away onto a ledge 8 stories up and through a wall, not fine! Vee Wee thinks certain blink spots are thilly and should be removed! But Thief mobility is ok! It’s annoying for sure, but Vee Wee knows without it they would just be useless!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

BrunoBRS.5178:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Just to people who just dont read the first topic:

I´m talking only about:

• Infiltrator strike (sword 2 skill).

• Shadow Shot (d/p 3 skill).

This skills require a target to be used so they are not used to escape.

i´m not talking about HS (it can be chilled/criple) or IA (high cost / low spam) or Steal (have CD) or IS (have CD)

and yet, your suggestion affects ALL initiative skills. you can’t be so blind that you don’t see it in your own argument.

but let’s entertain you for a bit:

• infiltrator strike: thief misses it, thief has to spend more initiative to port all the way back to the original location (and it can be interrupted now, since it has a cast time after people like you were QQing about it) before they can even try again. infiltrator strike is not a skill thief uses to chase a running target, it’s a skill they use to engage, and to disengage when things go badly. total cost for spamming this skill: 5 ini per attempt, not to mention being sent back and thus losing target.

• shadow shot: has all the weaknesses of any projectile attack. you can reflect, dodge (it has a really obvious animation), LOS, freaking sidestep, outrun, anything. costs 4 ini per attempt, and a D/P thief that wastes too much initiative trying to connect shadow shot will be dead if it finally lands, because they’ll have no ini for black powder + HS.

seriously, OP, if you’re literally the only person in a thread that’s crossed the 100 post mark that thinks you’re right, and even people that do not play thief think you’re wrong, then maybe it’s time to rethink things.

I was not expecting that thiefs would give me reason In fact i was expecting the usual “l2p and thiefs are weak”. Some tried….

By the way you dont lose target when using infiltrator return and if the target get out of range for sword 2 the thief will use other gap closers to compensate like those i posted above. I dont have issues with that, only with the spamming the same skill in a matter of seconds.

And you are only seing this as a thief but that is normal.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

silentnight warrior.2714:

When, as you said, thiefs start to using pistol 3 skill or sword 2 only 3 times in a row and get without iniciative thats is a good thing because it punish thiefs from spamming. Right now thats not true.

?

How is that not true?

Pistol three X3 is 12 initiative,

Infil strike X3 is 15.

For a gap closer? By the time the thief gets to you after whiffing twice, he’d be a sandbag.

Spamming is already heavily punished.

I will try to post a video for the amount of times i can do those skills.

ellesee.8297:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Thieves were designed to be mobile my frands! But Vee Wee thinks blinks are thuper overpowered! Blinking away is fine! Blinking away onto a ledge 8 stories up and through a wall, not fine! Vee Wee thinks certain blink spots are thilly and should be removed! But Thief mobility is ok! It’s annoying for sure, but Vee Wee knows without it they would just be useless!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

blinks are thuper overpowered! Blinking away is fine! Blinking away onto a ledge 8 stories up and through a wall, not fine! Vee Wee thinks certain blink spots are thilly and should be removed!

This could also work.

silentnight warrior.2714:

BrunoBRS.5178:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Just to people who just dont read the first topic:

I´m talking only about:

• Infiltrator strike (sword 2 skill).

• Shadow Shot (d/p 3 skill).

This skills require a target to be used so they are not used to escape.

i´m not talking about HS (it can be chilled/criple) or IA (high cost / low spam) or Steal (have CD) or IS (have CD)

and yet, your suggestion affects ALL initiative skills. you can’t be so blind that you don’t see it in your own argument.

but let’s entertain you for a bit:

• infiltrator strike: thief misses it, thief has to spend more initiative to port all the way back to the original location (and it can be interrupted now, since it has a cast time after people like you were QQing about it) before they can even try again. infiltrator strike is not a skill thief uses to chase a running target, it’s a skill they use to engage, and to disengage when things go badly. total cost for spamming this skill: 5 ini per attempt, not to mention being sent back and thus losing target.

• shadow shot: has all the weaknesses of any projectile attack. you can reflect, dodge (it has a really obvious animation), LOS, freaking sidestep, outrun, anything. costs 4 ini per attempt, and a D/P thief that wastes too much initiative trying to connect shadow shot will be dead if it finally lands, because they’ll have no ini for black powder + HS.

seriously, OP, if you’re literally the only person in a thread that’s crossed the 100 post mark that thinks you’re right, and even people that do not play thief think you’re wrong, then maybe it’s time to rethink things.

I was not expecting that thiefs would give me reason In fact i was expecting the usual “l2p and thiefs are weak”. Some tried….

By the way you dont lose target when using infiltrator return and if the target get out of range for sword 2 the thief will use other gap closers to compensate like those i posted above. I dont have issues with that, only with the spamming the same skill in a matter of seconds.

And you are only seing this as a thief but that is normal.

just because i main a thief doesn’t mean it’s the only thing i play. it’s just what i find most fun.

you “lose” target in that if you missed infiltrator strike once because your target was out of range, you can’t just use it again to get even closer. if you try that, you’ll put 900 units of space between you and your target, who is presumably still running.

and for the love of god, stop with “thief will just use other mobility skills”. thieves have a shared cooldown, they don’t get to weapon swap to get new, fresh skills. if they can’t use a mobility skill on one set, they sure won’t be able to use it on their secondary set. thief playstyle is based on fighting with a single weapon set 90% of the time. that’s something ANYONE that plays thief can tell you. and guess what? thief weapon skills have, at best, one teleport.

i’m begging you, begging you, to just try and play thief pretending your changes are in effect.