Guild Wars 2

This thread is not about nerfing the current stealth mechanik of the thief.

I want to suggest some capibilities by simply not adding more dmg traits or nerfing a traitline to be complete useless for thiefs who want still playing with stealth.
I watched over the shadow arts traitline, having 10 traits with stealth , so …
acrobatic Needs a Change to get a Little compensation for non stealth thiefs but makes it also be viable to trait for stealth based builds.
Im not talking about DA, CS, T -traitlines because i want suggest to improve the survivability of a non stealthed thief.
The current problem with thief class is, who wants to play without stealth has to take high risk of engage fighting and getting no real reward by playing with high effort as a medium armor wearing class with low hp, low armor, average dmg, and a single-one-way-class-skill, Surviablility is needed here.

To speak about the fact;
evading is the only Mechanik by avoiding incoming dmg, since thiefs having no immunity skills as all other classes have, to prevent incoming burst dmg.
So, I would Change 1 trait to be fit with a new evade-based gameplay for thiefs and changing some else traits but which can also be used by thiefs with stealth but NOT with getting high rewards because of using stealth.
Also, not rly shure about where to place them intro acrobatic line at last (Adept/master/grandmaster), but to get a first look about changes.

[Power of Inertia]
Gain might whenever you dodge and also gain 6 sec Reveal.
Also gain 1 of following boon for each direction you were dodging.

6s Reavel on dodge
dodging forward- gain Retaliation 4 sec
dodging backwards- gain protection 4sec
dodging right/left-gain regeneration 4 sec Healing: 520
ICD of 1 sec
(there could be also a variant boon of dodging left or right)

or

Gain might whenever you dodge and also gain 6 sec Reveal.
Also gain 1 of the following boons as random.
6s Reveal on dodge

4s Retaliation
4s Regeneration Healing: 520
4s Protections
ICD of 1 sec

This should be the “reward trait” for playing without stealth, because putting 30points into SA will also give you might for using your stealth Mechanik as well.
But to not simple brainless spam your evades into a chain-defense, there should be an ICD which dont allows to stack boons into infinity but making it 1 second longer as Expeditious Dodger for a patent reward trait.

THis is the deal, stealth thiefs can no longer use this trait, but lemme go further, i will not suggest “loss” without any rewards.

[Hard to Catch]
Refill you endurance bar when you are disabled (stun, daze, float, knockdown, launch, knockback, sink, or fear). o ICD 30 sec

or

Recharge all of your shadowstep skills when you are disabled (stun, daze, float, knockdown, launch, knockback, sink, or fear). ICD 60 sec

Simply, to get a real deal.

[Vigorous Recovery]
Gain vigor when using healing skill and also gain1 Initiative.

vigor 5sec
1 Initiative

The initiative buff as a result of dec 10th nerf on_Infusion of shadow_.
This trait “could” also be working with “removing a random condition wich is not listened in the advice of your used healskill " as a compensation of dec 10th nerf on infiltrator return sword skill.
Both useful effects for all thiefs and not overpowered.
Choose 1 of them at the end.
And Quick Recovery wont be less interessting because the cd of healskills are 2×15sec and one with 30sec.

[Assassin’s Reward]
Heal yourself whenever you uses a skill that uses Initiative.
Heal yourself for each Point of Initiative spend.
This healing does not scale with healing power and it cant be triggered when stealthed.

Healing: 120

That trait should separate stealth and stealthless gameplay but not beeing completely useless for thiefs with stealth. It should not be able to combine this trait with Shadow’s Rejuvenation.
And also dont allowing troll builds x/x/30/30/x with an absurd healing power effect like warriors healing signet.

Well Im not a math Genius, but let me explain something:

Shadows Rejuvenation / 4845heal in 15 sec ~ 323hp per 1s= 1. best heal
Withdraw / 4344heals on 15s cd ~ 289,6hp per 1s= 2. best heal
Hide in Shadow / 5760heal on 30s cd ~ 192hp per1s=3. best heal (base heal)
Assassin’s Reward / 1800heal in 15 sec ~120hp per1s = 4. best heal

but

you getting heal on evade and also from AR ~ 250hp regen per sec
and to not making a better healsource from AR as Withdraw or even better with Shadows Rejuvenation , there needs to be Balance between These 2 traits.

In engage fighting is not guaranteed for getting constant hp per sec because buffs can simply be declined by other classes boonripoff/poison, so the only base healing are AR~250hp/1xInit(+130hp from boon) for beeing visible and
SR ~323 for beeing stealhted.

I know its seems to be less, but
+protection 33% > toughness ~ 30 into SA ~= same survival Option as a stealthed thief
… hope the numbers are a bit logic understandable

AT last, I hope to be not that confusing with numbers but its an idea I was thinking about and the new subform seems to be adressed for it.
What do you think? PLz feel free to add changes, also new suggestions.

Actually, have you considered nerfing Shadow’s Rejuvenation? Lower the healing from it, and have it apply protection for 4 or 5 seconds with some ICD of perhaps 5 seconds. It doesn’t prevent conditions from being a pain on thieves after they’ve stealthed but it allows them to better position themselves for their next attack or get out of the fire.

A few things. First off thief is not a toe to toe eat the hits class. even if you run S/P you are literally avoiding hits through evade frames and blinds. So anything that says protection is out because the protection spamming low health class is guardian. Our evades, blinds, and stealth are there for a reason use them well and you can survive just fine.

That being said I do not disagree with you sentiment just your analysis. Our best dungeon build is in all honesty S/P (most up time in melee best defense while still deal damage). In WvW it is up you. Roaming is the world of stealth but you can effectively roam with no stealth or little to no stealth ie no D/P, no x/D, and no refuge just fine.

[Power of Inertia]
Your basic dungeon dps build won’t take this trait as is neither will your WvW build. The retal is pointless we simply can not soak damage well enough to use it. Protection is out period. The regeneration is a nice idea but without an ICD of 5-10 seconds it just becomes spam dodge and heal. 6 second reveal is pointless because it is not a widely used trait and furthermore would just act as punishment for any build that so much as use blinding powder or HiS for limited stealth.

[Hard to Catch]
Needs a rework. Idea one is bad. If your stunned you are not dodging and we have some of the best endurance management in the game. The point of the trait is to help you avoid the punishment of getting hit by one of those effects. Idea one won’t do that. Idea 2 is fine but probably not wide reaching enough to help. Something like a simple break stun the first time you get stunned would be the easy fix.

[Vigorous Recovery]
Easy buff but likely unnecessary. It wouldn’t make the trait op or anything like that it just won’t serve much of a purpose. Honestly it couldn’t hurt.

[Assassin’s Reward]
Makes sense but heal scaling should still be part of it vs a flat amount. 120 is fine and likely would not be OP. Most players will not run x x 30 30 x and carry both traits. I do however think if you did have a build like that you could possibly troll to no end so not having it work in stealth could make sense.

Stealth builds and no stealth builds are already separated by the basic mechanics. A stealth build generally relies on stealth attack and not stealth builds on dual wield skills. S/P just a got buffed a while ago and PP has always been in weird place but does well as a burst weapon set. Shifting traits in acrobats wont help much. Trickery and Deadly Arts outshine it for regular play. Most people running those sets do not need that much defense outside PvP.

In regular PvE vs anything other than a champ or dredge S/P is literally your winner when it comes to survivability using black powder alone. Even when facing a champ it is still on top in terms of damage avoidance with proper use of PW. In PvP it depends. Stealth will give you a breather in combat but Evasion will allow you to fight a class like warrior heads up.

I think the low-access, long-duration stealth of other games has worked out much better than the frequent-access, short-duration model used in this game.

scerevisiae.1972:

I think the low-access, long-duration stealth of other games has worked out much better than the frequent-access, short-duration model used in this game.

I would agree with you as far as people complaining is concerned. It’s not overpowered in itself, it’s just annoying to play against and hard to learn how to counter. Once you actually roll a thief and learn the patterns then you can readily defeat them. I can tell if I’m fighting an opponent that has taken the time to learn how stealth works vs the casuals that just flail their weapon and rage.

I think that’s really the problem we are dealing with, the learning curve.

If you want the thief to stay out of stealth, you have to give him more base health, on demand condition remove skills and traits, protection, regeneration, blocks……..and you have an engineer

Kanenas.4906:

If you want the thief to stay out of stealth, you have to give him more base health, on demand condition remove skills and traits, protection, regeneration, blocks……..and you have an engineer

I think only increasing health wont fit well, you cant regain hp that easy like a thief with Shadow Rejuvenation
im playing with Assasin’s Reward right now, but only getting 69 hp on 1 init. is still very less
I think you prefer the Power of Inertia sugestion b) with longer ICD?
PLz remind, anet wants skill readjustment, so making it to a passive easy gaining trait wont fit to the readjustment, thats why I also wrote a trait with the direction so you have to pay more Attention and skill infight to get the boon you want.
But also in respect to your Engi comparison, boons can Change, of curse, put Retaliation away but it think protection should be right there for a simply adjustment on toughness of stealth thiefs.