Guild Wars 2

Only in Goldilocks and the Three Bears do you find an option that is “just right”.
Knowing that balance is an art and science hard to master, would you prefer:

1. ANet make MORE changes which may be “too fast” and need correction later or

2. ANet make FEWER changes but be extremely “calculated and considerate”?

Please state if your primary mode of play is WvW/PvP or PvE as that definitely could impact the vote.

MORE changes (as in ‘more frequently’) with the will to admit mistakes and revert them, if necessary.

WvW/PvE

It is better than make little changes that can be eventually be imbalanced and then hotfix it a day later than make giant patches that completely break the game and fix it months later in “big feature patches”.

The changes have been too slow.
Changing a lot at once, unbalances more stuff at once, and it stays that way until many many months later when it gets a miniscule nerf.
Changing faster will probably create just as many mistakes as the slower speed, but will allow for it to be able to be corrected or tossed out without getting too attached to the failed idea, and without wasting so much time.

The extra credits episode “fail faster” actually appears to be a perfect answer to this question.

1: For balance there is never to fast, there is only to slow. Most competitive games on the market right now have a bi-weekly balance update. Why is guild wars on a six month switch? There is no excuse for a game that advertised wanting to make an eSport and not wanting to take the effort required to do so. So I will say that I would accept at bare minimum monthly balance patches, it would keep things moving forward at least at that point.

2: Big feature patches like the upcoming are great for one thing, causing hype that is or isn’t meeting the players expectations, with past experience it didn’t meet most and that is why I say if they want to keep this method then they are going to lose more players then gain. Having certain things be on a big-feature patch is fine, but doing all your balance changes tied up with new PvP rewards system, tied up with feriocty vs crit %, tied up with sigil and rune rehauls. This is why balance should never be a part of a big feature update.

So I would say I want both, balance bi-weekly to monthly with hotfixes to clean up exploited bugs before they become meta bugs. With as well big feature stuff every 3-6 months delivering the big changes like if they don’t like a trait line and they want to totally rehaul it, or they decide that a gear stat needs changed, or they want to add new maps/modes to WvW/sPvP, or they want to totally rehaul a part of their game.

Living Story shows they can put out content on a bi-weekly basis, be it temporary. I do not see why they can’t fix permanent problems and keep a game balanced on that same schedule. I would just like them taking care of their game on a similar schedule. When you show you care about your game and not about stuff that will be gone in 2 weeks more I think you will have less of a toxic community on the forums then you do now ANet. When a lot of the PvPers and WvW only players see you tossing the PvE players a bone every other week and they sit there having to wait 3-6 months to see anything for them be it balance or new shinys it gets to the point where people quit due to loss of faith or come to the forums out of anger and frustration.

lol @ this thread. Surely 100% of people say more changes

Rickster.8752:

lol @ this thread. Surely 100% of people say more changes

It still needs to be said, even if there isn’t much to discuss.
Otherwise it is not likely to be brought to attention.

This for real lol? Too fast? it’s not even fast, its not even normal speed, its not even too slow

It’s too kitten slow

and it will remain at this snail’s pace because
1) NCsoft is in charge here
2) Because of ^, gemstore additions + LS will remain top priority. Until stated otherwise

Anet balance updates are way too slow and most of the time there are way too many changes in them. They completely upset everything and break things that we then have to live with for months and months before it gets fixed by adding a bunch more changes which breaks something else and we have to wait months again before they fix it by adding a bunch more changes and so on and so forth.

I would rather they come out with little changes more often and see how it affects balance and gameplay and make little tweaks to keep everything in check.

I honestly wish they were just consistently kicking out small patches and tweaks every two weeks. Even if the change has not been fully tested and they just wanted to give it to the community and let us test it for two weeks then give our feedback, even that shows the desire to change and improve the game. Then give or take every quarter just have this bloated patch full of tweaks, skins, changes in game type, basically Blizzard caliber -- can just blow our minds with changes in meta, classes, traits, builds, weapons, and the gem store.

I’ll give them credit spitting out these Living Stories every two weeks (which I barely touch unless there is gold involved) but the fact they are focusing more on content instead of fixing their current content is just bad form. Stop stuffing PvE crap down my throat every two weeks then completely disappoint me with your balance patches.

Living story has no effect on my WvW and sPvP but balance patches help the game entirety.

Small wall-of-text inc, mostly about PvP/WvW balance. Not sure if this is even relevant to the topic. huehue.

I think there are two main issues people have with these infrequent balance updates which need to be addressed:
a) Making drastic changes out of the blue and providing no solid reasoning as to why such changes were made. It doesn’t need to be an entire page worth of explanation per change, but rather a simple paragraph that applies logic and understanding of the current meta. An excellent example of this can be seen here

b) not giving us a chance to read and give feedback before the patch goes to the live servers. Providing a place for players to view upcoming changes and respond with well thought-out and structured responses (similar to the CDI threads) would resolve many qualms people have and allow for a more settled release. The community has already demonstrated, from the leaked patch notes of previous updates, that it is able to provide superb discussion, feedback and suggestions (among all the QQ and complaints), which only falls upon deaf ears as they are, after all, leaked patch notes. To me, it only makes sense that this approach would be taken when you’ve opted to do quarterly balance changes and refuse to make tweaks to class balance beyond fixing legitimate, game-breaking bugs.

If there was an opposite to Ludicrous Speed, that’s the speed that Anet updates the professions in this game.

They are too slow.

And even with this slow pace they make poor design choices or fix symptoms, not causes.

The slow pace of change hasn’t made the game any better. I’d wager it has made it worse. Imo we need a balance patch every 2 months or so. We don’t always need massive changes but minor ones on a more regular basis.

Agreed, which is better? The fast warrior that strikes quickly and leaves the opponent dead in a matter of seconds? Or a slow lumbering knight that can kill in one hit of his mighty broad sword…. if he hits at all.

Edit: I just wanted to say that people will be FAR less upset if they have to deal with poor design choices for a week or so, rather than MANY potentially poor design choices that will only be changed in months time.

Warriors and guardians have ruled PvE for 1.5+ years. Rangers and necros and engineers have been neglected for that longdespite promises on incoming change since the game release.

In pvp eles were ridiculous for quite a while, thieves have always been ridiculous (driving out all other berk/valk amulet players). It took them a while to change eles, and now warriors took their place. Warriors have yet to be changed.

A guardian has always been mandatory on any team, and for some reason that hasn’t changed. No other class is as mandatory as the guardian in any game format. Has that changed?

Changes come in too slow and they’re not even meaningful. Mostly fluff. In their promotion of guild wars 2 before release, they mocked WoW about waiting between expansion packs for changes, claiming that their ability to dynamically implement game changes would allow them to make immediate change.

1.5+ years later, you look at the list of changes and realize that WoW alone in a single content patch has done more class balancing changes than GW2 did in a year.

There’s plenty of changes…they just disappear in 2 weeks with no beneficial lasting effect

They really need a public test server where those of us passionate about our classes and the desire to balance the game as best as possible can come, take some proposed changes, do tests with statistics backing and see how it may affect gameplay in all types of gameplay with our feedback. There are so many of us out here ready to help Anet make the game they want and we want but they are not utilizing us.

I’m close to tapping out for good.

so i’m trying to cool down this this thread, although i’m of course in favor of “moar balance updates plox!”

a) people tend to complain about changes when they’re happy with how it was. those people didn’t go into the forums and responded to such topics like these.

b) more balance updates means more work for anet, on stuff that get changed a couple of weeks later again and therefore have little to no long term effect. that’s what people complain about living world, too.

c) people mostly whine for balance changes when they’re tired, when they see something repeating itself (“w always better than x, y is strong, z is useless”). That’s sometimes because they always play the same thing (only few classes, only few gamemodes, only few builds). level up a new character if you’re tired, do something you never do. that helps on opening up your minds. only few of us have done EVERYTHING in this game often enough to get bored of it.

d) too many changes and people returning to the game will find their game confusing, since builds they ran got useless and stuff they had got worthless. it can be a pain to have to learn a new meta before you rejoin a game.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

They really need a public test server where those of us passionate about our classes and the desire to balance the game as best as possible can come, take some proposed changes, do tests with statistics backing and see how it may affect gameplay in all types of gameplay with our feedback. There are so many of us out here ready to help Anet make the game they want and we want but they are not utilizing us.

I’m close to tapping out for good.

I like the idea, they already have test servers but it would probably be a lot of work to screen quality testers to get proper feedback.

SkiTz.4590:

This for real lol? Too fast? it’s not even fast, its not even normal speed, its not even too slow

It’s too *kitten * slow

and it will remain at this snail’s pace because
1) NCsoft is in charge here
2) Because of ^, gemstore additions + LS will remain top priority. Until stated otherwise

Why not add an item in the Gemstore called “PVP Balance Patch Update Kit” with the description: “Balance patch will hit the game once a batch of the PVP Balance Patch Update Kit gets sold out! Then the amount of Update Kits in the Gem Store gets automatically refreshed. The more you buy Kits, the faster the balance update!”

Hurray for Gem Store Sales!!

If one takes the “candy” away all at once, there is the risk of crashing the patient and likely causing their death.

Balance patches are to few and far between. So many useless traits/runes/sigils. Why would you kitten yourself by running x when y is stronger and z is stronger than both x and y combined? You wouldn’t play a guardian with just a staff in pvp would you?

The problem is there is no reason to mess with much of anything after you’ve figured out the best stat combo/weapons for your style of play.

More gameplay/balance patches are needed in a much shorter time frame. No one wants to keep hearing “we’re looking into it” only for minor changes to take half a year. No one wants to use broken and buggy abilities. No one likes to play a game with “build diversity” only to have some highly skilled player yell at them to use one of two or three meta builds available because numerous buggy and underpowered traits and skills still exist. And no one will want to keep watching an e-sport where the meta is balanced around the most passive and boring builds with no sign of change.

Julie Yann.5379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

They really need a public test server where those of us passionate about our classes and the desire to balance the game as best as possible can come, take some proposed changes, do tests with statistics backing and see how it may affect gameplay in all types of gameplay with our feedback. There are so many of us out here ready to help Anet make the game they want and we want but they are not utilizing us.

I’m close to tapping out for good.

I like the idea, they already have test servers but it would probably be a lot of work to screen quality testers to get proper feedback.

They would need to create an in-game template that allows the reporting and feedback on certain things. Unfortunately, I am not an expert at hosting a PTS but it seems that the hardware and resources needed would be a good investment at the longevity of their game if they are serious about change.

I’d say more frequent balance changes is bad for a few reasons:

1. The “meta”, as it’s called, takes time to develop. It can take time for players to create something with the options available in game, so something that may seem underpowered right now may actually end up being considered overpowered in a month or two. Automated response and berserker stance are prime examples of this, as are decap engineers. If things are changed very frequently, they won’t take into account things that haven’t yet been developed by the community, and some skills may end up becoming insanely overpowered or underpowered (think knee-jerk nerfing).

2. Planning to revert mistakes after they enter the system is a bad design philosophy, and should only be done if necessary. The cost of reverting a mistake is much greater than simply spending more resources up front to help prevent it in the first place. It is better to strive not to introduce problems, and as such it would be better to be very careful and methodical in their changes. A higher frequency of updates would not allow for as much time to acquire a sense of the current state of balance and make adjustments appropriately, meaning a lot of time may be wasted making things and then undoing them.

3. Balance changes that are too frequent can confuse people. If they don’t keep all the changes in their mind, they may forget how a certain build plays. Additionally, if a player invests in some kind of gear for a build which suddenly faces drastic alterations, they may find that their investment is wasted and not appreciate the changes.

4. It may be a bit more cost effective to put out less frequent, larger up dates than very frequent, smaller ones. I know that the localization for tooltips and stuff is probably much more efficient to do in a big chunk, although I don’t know the inner workings of their development processes.

That being said, it has been some time since any major balance updates, so I can understand why people are getting a bit antsy. With the first living story season coming to a close, they may be able to spend a bit more time on balance matter after the big feature patch they have planned hits. We’ll have to see.

ANet’s philosophy has always been that “it’s ready when it’s ready”, and I hope they stick by that. It’s what has made this game the quality product is has been since day one (although IMO they still released the game several months too soon).

Did you really have to make this thread, OP? Do you really need someone to tell you the answer to that question?

I wish I could describe ANet’s speed, but no unit of speed small enough has ever been needed before and thus I lack the proper words to do so.

Yamsandjams.3267:

I’d say more frequent balance changes is bad for a few reasons:

1. The “meta”, as it’s called, takes time to develop. It can take time for players to create something with the options available in game, so something that may seem underpowered right now may actually end up being considered overpowered in a month or two. Automated response and berserker stance are prime examples of this, as are decap engineers. If things are changed very frequently, they won’t take into account things that haven’t yet been developed by the community, and some skills may end up becoming insanely overpowered or underpowered (think knee-jerk nerfing).

2. Planning to revert mistakes after they enter the system is a bad design philosophy, and should only be done if necessary. The cost of reverting a mistake is much greater than simply spending more resources up front to help prevent it in the first place. It is better to strive not to introduce problems, and as such it would be better to be very careful and methodical in their changes. A higher frequency of updates would not allow for as much time to acquire a sense of the current state of balance and make adjustments appropriately, meaning a lot of time may be wasted making things and then undoing them.

3. Balance changes that are too frequent can confuse people. If they don’t keep all the changes in their mind, they may forget how a certain build plays. Additionally, if a player invests in some kind of gear for a build which suddenly faces drastic alterations, they may find that their investment is wasted and not appreciate the changes.

4. It may be a bit more cost effective to put out less frequent, larger up dates than very frequent, smaller ones. I know that the localization for tooltips and stuff is probably much more efficient to do in a big chunk, although I don’t know the inner workings of their development processes.

That being said, it has been some time since any major balance updates, so I can understand why people are getting a bit antsy. With the first living story season coming to a close, they may be able to spend a bit more time on balance matter after the big feature patch they have planned hits. We’ll have to see.

ANet’s philosophy has always been that “it’s ready when it’s ready”, and I hope they stick by that. It’s what has made this game the quality product is has been since day one (although IMO they still released the game several months too soon).

How long did it take before warriors got a well needed buff to make them viable in PvP? 1 year.
They over buffed us, how long is it has it taken them before fixing it? It’s been about 8 months now

How long did it take to fix thieves after launch? A little over a year and they are still somewhat broken.

The OP condition meta has been going on for how long now?

I agree that changes at too short an interval doesn’t gives us time to adapt and them time to evaluate the effects but go too long between intervals and throwing so many changes at once makes it very painful for the players who have to put up with broken kitten for 6 months to a year.

as a pvper i have to scream MORE!

a couple of balance changes and thats all we get for half a year?
the meta is horrible, we need a change, we need regular changes.

this thread is getting hilariously awkward. all i see is “ermergerd the meta is so unplayable! i’m waiting since they announced the game for a nerf of class X, right now i cannot even log in i get instakilled by Y, devs have never done ANY good to this game, all they do is bulldozer”

like if this game was so horrendously broken. and some of those people even start namecalling devs for not answering to their mostly just egocentric posts in or out of cdi’s. which is just tremendously awkward.

these guys should turn down the volume of shouting, really. it doesn’t help anyway. and it ruins the fun for everyone else, especially for the people from anet that have to deal with this. they’re just people after all. in the end, they just stop reading the forums.