Guild Wars 2

First notion: I am strictly talkign about sPvP and tPvP. For WvW and PvE i have no problem what so ever with turret engineers.

Why i think turrets have to be nerfed:
-In nodecap based games where holding a node is winning the ability of long lasting, high hp, summons is a win guarantee. It is impossible to have a fair 1v1 against an engineer with 4 turrets + 5 turrets from supply drop that blwo out tons of damage and tons of cc (knockback, immobilize). Heck it’s almost impossibel to have a fair 2v1 as one guy will be on constant cc.
-Playing a turret engineer does not promote skillfull play as you rely entirely on AI.
My main problem with this is that GW2 is a game where looking around is real important and being able to sneak up on people somethimes comes with great reward. Having an AI that autodetects player completely ruins this experience

Some suggestions:
Make it so that the engineer has to hand trigger the firing of each turret (by a replacement skill in the skillbar liek guardian weapons) and cranck up the cooldown on the attacks a bit more so they dont get rheumatic at 30. This will allow engineers to make the turret attacks at critical moments in teh fight allowign for a higher skill cap of the build. It also means the engineer has to correctly target (dotn target clones e.g.) which is also an important aspect of this game. It also means he cant use teh turrets while stunned (stunnign a turreteer is completely useless now, and turrets cant be stunned, so other forms of cc are just a waste) The problem with this would be supply crate. I suggest giving supply crate only 3 turrets (rifle, rocket and heal) that can be trigger all at once by the replacement skill on no10 (NO net turret as a surefire immobilize after a 2 sec stun on a class that already has TONS of cc is just way out of line)

TO me this looks like a much funner way to do somethign about the turret dominance in pvp than straight out increasing cooldowns! Your arguments below!

Sadly there’s a dichotomy when it comes to passive play in this game : anything that’s not warrior passive play is alright.
Warrior passive sustain, or traits, or anything is bad.

But mesmers having phantasms doing all the work or engis spamming turrets is considered ok.

Sad but true.

Engineer turrets are actually a decent form of AI. They don’t move and the effect comes from the turret itself, so it can be readily avoided, and if the turret is destroyed or the battle moves, the engineer is now at a disadvantage. The more they build around the turrets and rely on them for damage, the weaker they are without them.

I would say that the problems lie in two places:

1. Accelerant-Packed Turrets (turrets explode and knock back when killed). This is an adept level trait and adds so much CC to the turret engineer. Either explode on-demand for CC and damage or punish you for trying to destroy the forest of turrets while staying on the point. This is in addition to all the CC the engineer already has. With this trait, Supply Crate becomes a box of CC, more than it already is.
2. Supply Crate’s Net Turret. Lots of extra CC in addition to the initial stun, healing, and damage. A good suggestion from a while ago was to replace it with a rifle turret and make the net turret a bonus to the Elite Supplies trait, which currently adds a rifle turret.

Harper.4173:

Sadly there’s a dichotomy when it comes to passive play in this game : anything that’s not warrior passive play is alright.
Warrior passive sustain, or traits, or anything is bad.

But mesmers having phantasms doing all the work or engis spamming turrets is considered ok.

Sad but true.

Well that escalated quickly.

But you make a false comparison, the difference being that warrior passive components work. :P

Carighan.6758:

Harper.4173:

Sadly there’s a dichotomy when it comes to passive play in this game : anything that’s not warrior passive play is alright.
Warrior passive sustain, or traits, or anything is bad.

But mesmers having phantasms doing all the work or engis spamming turrets is considered ok.

Sad but true.

Well that escalated quickly.

But you make a false comparison, the difference being that warrior passive components work. :P

And are for the most part in that untouchable “good place”.

Carighan.6758:

Harper.4173:

Sadly there’s a dichotomy when it comes to passive play in this game : anything that’s not warrior passive play is alright.
Warrior passive sustain, or traits, or anything is bad.

But mesmers having phantasms doing all the work or engis spamming turrets is considered ok.

Sad but true.

Well that escalated quickly.

But you make a false comparison, the difference being that warrior passive components work. :P

As opposed to mesmer’s passive phantasms that are just simply one of the best builds in the game and clearly don’t work.

Or engi’s incredible on-point presence. Which clearly doesn’t work.

Exedore.6320:

Engineer turrets are actually a decent form of AI. They don’t move and the effect comes from the turret itself, so it can be readily avoided, and if the turret is destroyed or the battle moves, the engineer is now at a disadvantage. The more they build around the turrets and rely on them for damage, the weaker they are without them.

I would say that the problems lie in two places:

1. Accelerant-Packed Turrets (turrets explode and knock back when killed). This is an adept level trait and adds so much CC to the turret engineer. Either explode on-demand for CC and damage or punish you for trying to destroy the forest of turrets while staying on the point. This is in addition to all the CC the engineer already has. With this trait, Supply Crate becomes a box of CC, more than it already is.
2. Supply Crate’s Net Turret. Lots of extra CC in addition to the initial stun, healing, and damage. A good suggestion from a while ago was to replace it with a rifle turret and make the net turret a bonus to the Elite Supplies trait, which currently adds a rifle turret.

Well that is exactly the problem in tpvp, moving away from the turrets and thus the point = losing

Prince.7198:

Well that is exactly the problem in tpvp, moving away from the turrets and thus the point = losing

What’s wrong with having a strong, but largely static area defense? I don’t see a problem with that.

The problem with turret engineer is that they can also gain that area control easily. Balance would be strong at decap or defense or mediocre at both, but not strong at both.

Harper.4173:

Sadly there’s a dichotomy when it comes to passive play in this game : anything that’s not warrior passive play is alright.
Warrior passive sustain, or traits, or anything is bad.

But mesmers having phantasms doing all the work or engis spamming turrets is considered ok.

Sad but true.

Personally I dislike all this stuff…

The irony is the AI literally just shoots at whatever the engi is shooting at and to make the turrets worth their kitten you need to use the actives… Turrets may be THE least passive AI build in the game (with the exception of maybe rangers NOT SPIRITS but that could be argued). It’s literally just like putting a dot on your target… Saying it’s any less passive than throwing a long lasting condi on someone is just stupid.

Personally, I don’t see an issue with them, if you AoE the turrets with direct damage they fall apart easily, then the turret engi is nearly worthless.

Why should builds that constantly keep the user in a low risk situation, while putting the opponent constantly in a high risk situation, while requiring little thought and little reflexes even exist?

The risk reward on A I builds is currently dumb, in my eyes it doesn’t take much to operate them either.

Shockwave.1230:

Why should builds that constantly keep the user in a low risk situation, while putting the opponent constantly in a high risk situation, while requiring little thought and little reflexes even exist?

Because they don’t. Unless you genuinely think that turrets put you into a high-risk situation instead of the engineer, and then… well… yeah.

Carighan.6758:

Shockwave.1230:

Why should builds that constantly keep the user in a low risk situation, while putting the opponent constantly in a high risk situation, while requiring little thought and little reflexes even exist?

Because they don’t. Unless you genuinely think that turrets put you into a high-risk situation instead of the engineer, and then… well… yeah.

They do in 1v1s and 2v2s unless you have hard counters to the turret build (like staff ele). ANet has stated in their recent ready up that they don’t want to have hard counters existing, though we all know they still do.

No they do not.

The turrets are glass, and easy to kill. As well they do very little damage unless they are actively triggered, making active play the only choice, as it should be, and eleviating passive play.

dancingmonkey.4902:

No they do not.

The turrets are glass, and easy to kill. As well they do very little damage unless they are actively triggered, making active play the only choice, as it should be, and eleviating passive play.

The turrets I’m fighting against are usually self healing, they potentially have the other trait to for beefier turrets too.

Additionally the MM’s I fight heal their minions.

AI don’t do little damage either. I’ll post a screen shot of them auto attacking my thief when I get a chance.

That active being the only choice statement is one of the biggest setups I’ve ever seen in a forum post. Of course active play is your only choice you don’t choose for the passive damage to be inflicted it just is.

Shockwave.1230:

The turrets I’m fighting against are usually self healing, they potentially have the other trait to for beefier turrets too.

See, this sounds a bit made-up, as the healing is so slow it’s basically not noticeable.

Carighan.6758:

Shockwave.1230:

The turrets I’m fighting against are usually self healing, they potentially have the other trait to for beefier turrets too.

See, this sounds a bit made-up, as the healing is so slow it’s basically not noticeable.

How is the healing not noticeable? I play a D/P thief. 1v1 and 2v2s vs turret engi is the biggest pain to deal with besides Mm. It’s better for me to not take those fights, because they counter me so hard. I haven’t seen other power glass specs having luck against A I builds, except maybe Acro Trickery S/D

It is starting to appear as if you are simply demanding a change because you feel it “counters you hard” and is “the biggest pain” to you personally. As you have repeatedly made similar statements previously. Using your justification, I feel thief stealth should be nerfed, because it is the “biggest pain” for everyone else, at least if you judge by the forums threads.

As of now you have offered no comparative numbers, play details, damage outputs, survivability of the turrets facts, or any actual information to support you position other then because it “counters you hard” and is “the biggest pain” to you as an individual. Do you have an arguments that are a bit less anecdotal or that offer a more general reasoning of evidence?

I don’t mind getting hard countered by dps guards, a good hambow, other engi builds, etc. But I can’t stand losing to to something that’s not a player.

I honestly don’t have that much against Turrets tbh. They feel less like AI and more like…well…turrets. If an enemy is running turrets just quickly focus them down and for the next minute the Engi is all but worthless. The build give Staff Ele even more purpose than it already had. Staff is not the only way to beat them, a Mace/Shield + GS Warrior with Dolyak and Balanced Stance with Missile Deflect can avoid being killed by the turrets and also totally lock down the Engi because when Thumper is out they have no stun breaks. They can also reflect Overcharged Shot which sends the Engi flying back a huge distance, leaving more time to decap and kill the turrets.

Shockwave.1230:

How is the healing not noticeable? I play a D/P thief. 1v1 and 2v2s vs turret engi is the biggest pain to deal with besides Mm. It’s better for me to not take those fights, because they counter me so hard. I haven’t seen other power glass specs having luck against A I builds, except maybe Acro Trickery S/D

Turrets have ~7,5k HP (Thumper more, Healing less).
They cannot dodge in any way. They heal 5% of their HP every 3 seconds, that’s 375HP, for 125HP/s regenerated.

Now I don’t know about you, but that’s a very insignificant amount for me, considering how fast they go down.

And that’s assuming a tiny minority of fights – you shouldn’t want to fight in a situation where that Engineer can play to her strengths in the first place, instead bring 2-3 people to shove the engi off, and then when she returns engage her so that she cannot deploy the turrets in an ideal setup.

But really, the healing is negligible. And this is the buffed version, used to be much weaker. :P

Carighan.6758:

Shockwave.1230:

How is the healing not noticeable? I play a D/P thief. 1v1 and 2v2s vs turret engi is the biggest pain to deal with besides Mm. It’s better for me to not take those fights, because they counter me so hard. I haven’t seen other power glass specs having luck against A I builds, except maybe Acro Trickery S/D

Turrets have ~7,5k HP (Thumper more, Healing less).
They cannot dodge in any way. They heal 5% of their HP every 3 seconds, that’s 375HP, for 125HP/s regenerated.

Now I don’t know about you, but that’s a very insignificant amount for me, considering how fast they go down.

And that’s assuming a tiny minority of fights – you shouldn’t want to fight in a situation where that Engineer can play to her strengths in the first place, instead bring 2-3 people to shove the engi off, and then when she returns engage her so that she cannot deploy the turrets in an ideal setup.

But really, the healing is negligible. And this is the buffed version, used to be much weaker. :P

Also consider turrets can’t be crit. Which is where a lot of glass builds get their damage. So not only do turrets deal more damage to glass builds, but they resist all their crit damage and dont git hit by crit procs, which is even more damage reduction. So that 325 health per 3 seconds feels like a lot more than that to me, especially when they are spaced well and cluster bomb doesn’t cleave them much if at all.

Yet it is okay for you to have ambush and thieves guild. Makes your argument a bit one sided.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Yet it is okay for you to have ambush and thieves guild. Makes your argument a bit one sided.

Who would run those? It’s A I, and not even well designed AI like Illusions that are more like an attack skill (phantasms) and resource to be consumed.

Exactly, they are 100% passive, and here you are complaining that immobile turrets that require overcharge control, because you feel it “counters you hard” and is “the biggest pain” to you personally.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Exactly, they are 100% passive, and here you are complaining that immobile turrets that require overcharge control, because you feel it “counters you hard” and is “the biggest pain” to you personally.

So the end game is to draw enough attention to AI builds that everyone starts running them, I’ve managed to get a couple engi ‘s I play with to run the build even though they find it more boring, they go on about how they only have 9 skills on their bar they can use and it feels like they are auto attacking too much of the time in rifle. Anyways By getting attention onto AI builds now hopefully they will be flooding the ToL2, which everyone’s eyes will be on. Hopefully that influences more people to run AI builds. Because I feel they are too strong (mostly bcs they hard counter me, but I also don’t like the idea of losing because of passive AI (which to be fair aren’t 100% passive)) , and hopefully if it shakes out they are taking over the meta, and heavily used in ToL2. I get the feeling AI comps will get further into the bracket than what is wanted, and if they do hopefully that draws enough attention to them that they get nerfed into not being a viable playstyle, bcs I want to play players in PvP not AI. It’ll just such if I run into those AI comps in ToL.

If you actually believe turrets are strong enough to see regularly in a ToL, then I feel you honestly have no understanding of them. Clearly you never play them I on the other hand play thief on regular occasion. Which makes me wonder why you make such complaints with no facts when you didn’t even invest time to experience it for yourself.

I’m very much a mono classer, I only jump into another class a couple days out of a month. I won’t play turrets because I don’t like AI, I don’t like playing against turrets, because I don’t like AI. I won’t play MM because I don’t like AI. I don’t like playing against MMs because I don’t like AI. I like playing against Dps guardians and other engi builds because they are players that offer me a challenge even though they hard counter me, they’re not AI.

What it comes down to is AI shouldn’t be effective in a PvP environment. And there’s no reason to make an AI build hard counter any player build.

I appreciate you doubling down on making my point. Not only do you verify that you do not know what is actually AI or to what level it is, because you refuse to try it, you verify that you are the type to make demands for game changes without any actual knowledge of the skills or profession you demand changes for.

Just keep AI builds from hard countering player builds and I’m a happy camper.

Exedore.6320:

1. Accelerant-Packed Turrets (turrets explode and knock back when killed). This is an adept level trait and adds so much CC to the turret engineer. Either explode on-demand for CC and damage or punish you for trying to destroy the forest of turrets while staying on the point. This is in addition to all the CC the engineer already has. With this trait, Supply Crate becomes a box of CC, more than it already is.

It has a smaller aoe then melee range, its tiny. You can litterally melee the turret and still not get hit by the knockback from it being destroyed.

Terrahero.9358:

It has a smaller aoe then melee range, its tiny. You can litterally melee the turret and still not get hit by the knockback from it being destroyed.

10 range less. If they have the turret range and damage increase trait, it’s not. Also, consider that often you’re trying to stay on a node as well.

Harper.4173:

Sadly there’s a dichotomy when it comes to passive play in this game : anything that’s not warrior passive play is alright.
Warrior passive sustain, or traits, or anything is bad.

But mesmers having phantasms doing all the work or engis spamming turrets is considered ok.

Sad but true.

im a mes.
trust me if i could,id spec into not using ai at all, i would do that in a heartbeat.ive always tried to spec for less ai, but unfortunately is a bad class design. i wish mes could like necro have the choice of using minions/phantasms and was not so dependant on it. ai should be reduced i agree and honestly a light armor class like mes should not be a petspam clss anyways. too many bugs with it and absolutely horrendoous in wvw raids.

stability is a passive replacement for dodge rolling. running it takes the thought out of pvp. lets get rid of that along with the turrets and mm

selan.8354:

Harper.4173:

Sadly there’s a dichotomy when it comes to passive play in this game : anything that’s not warrior passive play is alright.
Warrior passive sustain, or traits, or anything is bad.

But mesmers having phantasms doing all the work or engis spamming turrets is considered ok.

Sad but true.

im a mes.
trust me if i could,id spec into not using ai at all, i would do that in a heartbeat.ive always tried to spec for less ai, but unfortunately is a bad class design. i wish mes could like necro have the choice of using minions/phantasms and was not so dependant on it. ai should be reduced i agree and honestly a light armor class like mes should not be a petspam clss anyways. too many bugs with it and absolutely horrendoous in wvw raids.

I played Mes a good amount in GW1 and boy does the class design in GW2 annoy me. It was a class about have Hexes to put the hurt on one type of playstyle or using interrupts to make casters cry.

In GW2 pretty much every build is reliant on AI and it makes it so much less interesting. They could have made the Phantasms appear for 1 attack and then disappear and give them a shorted CD. The whole clone system in general could have been about timing your skills so that they get hit instead of you but don’t linger around. Of course, this would mean that the whole class mechanic would have had to be different but I just feel that there’s a way to make illusion/disruption based class that is supposed to be “confusing” to fight without being simply annoying. Not being reliant on clones would also mean that they could have more worth in PvP because their main mechanic isn’t constantly getting destroyed by AoE.

Shockwave.1230:

Carighan.6758:

Shockwave.1230:

Why should builds that constantly keep the user in a low risk situation, while putting the opponent constantly in a high risk situation, while requiring little thought and little reflexes even exist?

Because they don’t. Unless you genuinely think that turrets put you into a high-risk situation instead of the engineer, and then… well… yeah.

They do in 1v1s and 2v2s unless you have hard counters to the turret build (like staff ele). ANet has stated in their recent ready up that they don’t want to have hard counters existing, though we all know they still do.

so technically if you were to take a staff ele to fight a turret engineer, and I’d like to remind you that you did say that a staff ele is a hard counter to a turret engineer, would that be high risk for the engineer.

it really feels like atm that people are complaining that they have to run a counter to something and they don’t want to so that’s unfair.

BurrTheKing.8571:

selan.8354:

Harper.4173:

Sadly there’s a dichotomy when it comes to passive play in this game : anything that’s not warrior passive play is alright.
Warrior passive sustain, or traits, or anything is bad.

But mesmers having phantasms doing all the work or engis spamming turrets is considered ok.

Sad but true.

im a mes.
trust me if i could,id spec into not using ai at all, i would do that in a heartbeat.ive always tried to spec for less ai, but unfortunately is a bad class design. i wish mes could like necro have the choice of using minions/phantasms and was not so dependant on it. ai should be reduced i agree and honestly a light armor class like mes should not be a petspam clss anyways. too many bugs with it and absolutely horrendoous in wvw raids.

I played Mes a good amount in GW1 and boy does the class design in GW2 annoy me. It was a class about have Hexes to put the hurt on one type of playstyle or using interrupts to make casters cry.

In GW2 pretty much every build is reliant on AI and it makes it so much less interesting. They could have made the Phantasms appear for 1 attack and then disappear and give them a shorted CD. The whole clone system in general could have been about timing your skills so that they get hit instead of you but don’t linger around. Of course, this would mean that the whole class mechanic would have had to be different but I just feel that there’s a way to make illusion/disruption based class that is supposed to be “confusing” to fight without being simply annoying. Not being reliant on clones would also mean that they could have more worth in PvP because their main mechanic isn’t constantly getting destroyed by AoE.

so much agree with u. gw1 mes was amazing in teamsupport and great at aoe and actually a pain to face for sure. they were the ultimate punishing class. we had this a little bit going in gw2 during glamour time, but anet decided to nerf this core mechanic to the ground which left us with ai only builds…i just wish we could have the role of punishing class back again. give us aoe back, make us viabale in wvw again and stop with the pet ai stuff. we are not rangers nor are we ganking thieves, we are a light armor class that used to be amazing in gw1 and seems more like a shadow of what we were supposed to be.
id say, enough with the ai! get rid of it!

selan.8354:

BurrTheKing.8571:

selan.8354:

Harper.4173:

Sadly there’s a dichotomy when it comes to passive play in this game : anything that’s not warrior passive play is alright.
Warrior passive sustain, or traits, or anything is bad.

But mesmers having phantasms doing all the work or engis spamming turrets is considered ok.

Sad but true.

im a mes.
trust me if i could,id spec into not using ai at all, i would do that in a heartbeat.ive always tried to spec for less ai, but unfortunately is a bad class design. i wish mes could like necro have the choice of using minions/phantasms and was not so dependant on it. ai should be reduced i agree and honestly a light armor class like mes should not be a petspam clss anyways. too many bugs with it and absolutely horrendoous in wvw raids.

I played Mes a good amount in GW1 and boy does the class design in GW2 annoy me. It was a class about have Hexes to put the hurt on one type of playstyle or using interrupts to make casters cry.

In GW2 pretty much every build is reliant on AI and it makes it so much less interesting. They could have made the Phantasms appear for 1 attack and then disappear and give them a shorted CD. The whole clone system in general could have been about timing your skills so that they get hit instead of you but don’t linger around. Of course, this would mean that the whole class mechanic would have had to be different but I just feel that there’s a way to make illusion/disruption based class that is supposed to be “confusing” to fight without being simply annoying. Not being reliant on clones would also mean that they could have more worth in PvP because their main mechanic isn’t constantly getting destroyed by AoE.

so much agree with u. gw1 mes was amazing in teamsupport and great at aoe and actually a pain to face for sure. they were the ultimate punishing class. we had this a little bit going in gw2 during glamour time, but anet decided to nerf this core mechanic to the ground which left us with ai only builds…i just wish we could have the role of punishing class back again. give us aoe back, make us viabale in wvw again and stop with the pet ai stuff. we are not rangers nor are we ganking thieves, we are a light armor class that used to be amazing in gw1 and seems more like a shadow of what we were supposed to be.
id say, enough with the ai! get rid of it!

The class is still strong 1v1 like in GW1 but for all the wrong reasons. I don’t feel like I’m losing to a well placed Empathy and having my big attacks interrupted, I feel like I’m being spammed to death and it’s not like I can’t instantly tell which mes is the real one so it’s not “confusing” at all.

Of course, then I throw on a LB on my War and watch all the clones explode as soon as they make them and it trivializes the fight. So it’s either a annoying visual cluster or a massive joke. I don’t think I’ve ever had a fight vs a mes that I’ve enjoyed. In GW1 it was certainly annoying as well but you saw them the whole time and it was about waiting for the right time to strike or striking just enough to put them on the back foot while not killing yourself in the process.