Guild Wars 2

With the various eviscerate builds, and how reliable/solid/low cool-down and high crit potential that eviscerate offers, its hard to justify using a S/Sh build. I find a few issues with Final Thrusts’s cool-down time, and seemingly super slow cast time and extremely low range. I had a couple of suggestions, I wouldn’t recommend all of them as one improvement, but choose one as a small improvement to make Final Thrust a little more of a viable option.

Option 1: Lower Final Thrust’s cool-down time to 8 seconds.
15 seconds is far too long for a 3rd weapon slot skill, with no way to reduce cool-down.

Option 2: Increase Final Thrusts Range/Lower ‘Animation Cast’ time.
Lets face it, it takes so long to cast that if you are crippled you are going to miss a backpedaling opponent, or the opponent is going to dodge well before you make the thrust. Or make the range longer- for a skill where you are reaching out 6 feet in front of you it feels like your hit box is only jabbing a foot in front of your character.

Option 3: If successfully hit on opponent with less then 50% health, cool-down is reduced by 66%
This is an interesting option, as it makes use of Final Thrust more skill oriented, instead of spam mode. If no other range/animation changes are made to the skill, this would make Final Thrust fun to use, and a potential 5.1 second cool-down would be strong incentive not to use it until target is below the 50% threshold.

Whats your thoughts? Any preferences on the options I listed? Do you have your own suggestion? I would love to hear your responses

Option 3 wouldnt make Final Thrust quite so final if you are forced to use it again. I would just reduce the cast time significantly, and change the damage range to compensate (100-66% HP and very little damage, 66-33% a little less damage than it does now, 33-1% a lot more damage than it does now.

question is if they buffed final thrust who would use axe?

yes, warrior need more dps……

urdriel.8496:

yes, warrior need more dps……

Don’t make a composition-fallacy. Yes, Warriors have too high DPS in PvE, are too durable and too mobile in sPvP and are too all-around-good in WvW. Yes.

But this doesn’t mean they don’t have tons of individual problems, and it’s quite unfair to tell any Warrior-player “Oh you? you’re not getting anything changed, just spec XYZ and you’re OP”. That’s not a valid argument to be made.

You could prioritize it lower, but even then you need some middle ground. And the OP never claimed that all work should hold while this is being changed. Improve slow-casting skills for all classes, making the more pronounced (that’d be my solution, even slower but really powerful, relying on group interaction to make them hit), and in the process also do the same for Final Thrust.

Carighan.6758:

Don’t make a composition-fallacy. Yes, Warriors have fourth best DPS in PvE, are too durable and too mobile in sPvP if they spec for useless builds and are in a solid fourth place in WvW roaming as well. And off course a good 2nd in blobvblob. Yes.

Fixed.

Carighan.6758:

urdriel.8496:

yes, warrior need more dps……

Don’t make a composition-fallacy. Yes, Warriors have too high DPS in PvE, are too durable and too mobile in sPvP and are too all-around-good in WvW. Yes.

But this doesn’t mean they don’t have tons of individual problems, and it’s quite unfair to tell any Warrior-player “Oh you? you’re not getting anything changed, just spec XYZ and you’re OP”. That’s not a valid argument to be made.

You could prioritize it lower, but even then you need some middle ground. And the OP never claimed that all work should hold while this is being changed. Improve slow-casting skills for all classes, making the more pronounced (that’d be my solution, even slower but really powerful, relying on group interaction to make them hit), and in the process also do the same for Final Thrust.

There is no fallacy, its simply a case of limited time and resources. Time spend buffing Warriors is time not spend nerfing Warriors or buffing more deserving candidates.

Regardless i believe Final Trust is already a powerful ability that does not desire buffing, and the Sword MH is a popular weapon in its own right.

Well, the sword is often taken, yes. I do think that finishing moves in general need expanding though, hence my example about whole-game changes.

I feel each class should have a handful of very slow and very obvious but very powerful abilities. Moa Morph is one crucial example here, Lich Form another (elites make good candidates for this, ofc).
Final Thrust could be pretty powerful, too. Engineer BOB works as I imagine those moves to work, kinda.

Carighan.6758:

But this doesn’t mean they don’t have tons of individual problems, and it’s quite unfair to tell any Warrior-player “Oh you? you’re not getting anything changed, just spec XYZ and you’re OP”. That’s not a valid argument to be made.

Actually, if your pointing out that builds X are op, then it is very reasonable for players to be against buffing anything else until changes are made to that build

PaulOnheiserJazz.1836:

With the various eviscerate builds, and how reliable/solid/low cool-down and high crit potential that eviscerate offers, its hard to justify using a S/Sh build.

I don’t agree with this.

Main hand sword offers a variety of different abilities than main hand axe. It’s not like the axe only has eviscerate and the sword only has final thrust.

For starter’s the sword can be used to apply significant condi damage, so it could be more useful in a hybrid damage build, especially in conjunction with traits like attack of opportunity.

Secondly, the sword has more control on it by default. The auto-attack chain can be used for a constant application of cripple, making it harder for the opponent to get around. Coupled with savage leap, it’s possible to keep cripple on the opponent very frequently, making it hard for them to cleanse it and keep it off. The axe has this capability as well, but it’s potential as a control ability is not as high due to the lower cripple uptime.

Thirdly, the flurry ability on the sword is also a great control ability, applying a long duration immobilize that can heavily punish an opponent who over-commits slightly (i.e. they are locked down and allies can coordinate a strike on them).

Lastly, savage leap is an indispensable mobility tool, allowing a warrior to chase enemies, use as an opener to a combo (i.e. savage leap → flurry), or to escape situations and cross gaps that they otherwise couldn’t. The axe offers no such option.

So I feel it’s quite easy to justify a sword/shield build, it just depends what you want it to do.

As far as final thrust is concerned, I think it’s fine as is. Eviscerate should be the more powerful ability overall since its a burst skill and is arguably the most important skill for main hand axe.

Although if they did want to buff it, I think a cooldown reduction wouldn’t be a bad way. I’d say 12 seconds would work nicely (basically what a -20% trait would do). A 3/4 cast time is fairly standard for abilities like this, although I don’t think 1/2 second would be unreasonable either.

If they give it too much usability through a low cooldown, quicker cast times, and extra bonuses for hitting people at low health, then they’d likely reduce the damage to compensate for it, which I think is a bad trade.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Actually, if your pointing out that builds X are op, then it is very reasonable for players to be against buffing anything else until changes are made to that build

True, although the same players will go absolutely rabid with foam at their mouths if they were to get nerfed before getting buffs to other areas, demanding that the buffs come first. :P

Carighan.6758:

Well, the sword is often taken, yes. I do think that finishing moves in general need expanding though, hence my example about whole-game changes.

I feel each class should have a handful of very slow and very obvious but very powerful abilities. Moa Morph is one crucial example here, Lich Form another (elites make good candidates for this, ofc).
Final Thrust could be pretty powerful, too. Engineer BOB works as I imagine those moves to work, kinda.

I absolutely agree with you, i feel that this was always the intent. Strong and powerful abilities to be offset not by cooldown alone but also by how they “telegraph”.

Some abilities do this really well, but there is little consistency. I think Final Thrust right now is in a good spot, it does a great amount of damage below 50% hp without a super long cooldown (15sec is not that long) offset with its strong “tell”.

In general i feel this concept isnt implemented that well however. Abilties get long casts and obvious tells but they arent warranted, or visa versa and strong abilities are difficult to evade because they have simple animations and low casttimes.

Final Thrust is fine, immob with adrenaline skill or cripple→immob trait and thrust away. It needs to have a slow telegraph because it’s so powerful.

Even a condi build can crit for 3-5k with it. Its potency activates at 50% sure but it’s meant to be used around the 25-33% range imo.

A fantastic post which once again demonstrates how out of touch warrior players are with the rest of the game.

You want an ability which hits for up to 8-9k at times, on a 7 second timer. When the ability firegrab, which hits for less damage, is on a 45 second timer.

Of course!!!, makes sense!. So you can run axe/shield, sword/whatever, eviscerate for 9-11k, then switch to sword and final thrust for 7-9k, then in 3-4 seconds eviscerate should be up again , and then you can switch directly back to sword for another final thrust. With sigil of intelligence you can be sure to crit with all 3 attacks!

It just seems so balanced on a high armour/high health/high mobility class with the best self condition removal in the game….

phaeris.7604:

A fantastic post which once again demonstrates how out of touch warrior players are with the rest of the game.

You want an ability which hits for up to 8-9k at times, on a 7 second timer. When the ability firegrab, which hits for less damage, is on a 45 second timer.

Of course!!!, makes sense!. So you can run axe/shield, sword/whatever, eviscerate for 9-11k, then switch to sword and final thrust for 7-9k, then in 3-4 seconds eviscerate should be up again , and then you can switch directly back to sword for another final thrust. With sigil of intelligence you can be sure to crit with all 3 attacks!

It just seems so balanced on a high armour/high health/high mobility class with the best self condition removal in the game….

Thanks for your intellectual response. I just have a hard time believing that I should be getting stomped by celestial elemental who can out tank me and out dps like I’m wearing paper. I wasn’t asking for a uber buff, just maybe a small change to how the skill operates. However, thanks again for your kind resposne.

Yamsandjams.3267:

PaulOnheiserJazz.1836:

With the various eviscerate builds, and how reliable/solid/low cool-down and high crit potential that eviscerate offers, its hard to justify using a S/Sh build.

I don’t agree with this.

Main hand sword offers a variety of different abilities than main hand axe. It’s not like the axe only has eviscerate and the sword only has final thrust.

For starter’s the sword can be used to apply significant condi damage, so it could be more useful in a hybrid damage build, especially in conjunction with traits like attack of opportunity.

Secondly, the sword has more control on it by default. The auto-attack chain can be used for a constant application of cripple, making it harder for the opponent to get around. Coupled with savage leap, it’s possible to keep cripple on the opponent very frequently, making it hard for them to cleanse it and keep it off. The axe has this capability as well, but it’s potential as a control ability is not as high due to the lower cripple uptime.

Thirdly, the flurry ability on the sword is also a great control ability, applying a long duration immobilize that can heavily punish an opponent who over-commits slightly (i.e. they are locked down and allies can coordinate a strike on them).

Lastly, savage leap is an indispensable mobility tool, allowing a warrior to chase enemies, use as an opener to a combo (i.e. savage leap -> flurry), or to escape situations and cross gaps that they otherwise couldn’t. The axe offers no such option.

So I feel it’s quite easy to justify a sword/shield build, it just depends what you want it to do.

As far as final thrust is concerned, I think it’s fine as is. Eviscerate should be the more powerful ability overall since its a burst skill and is arguably the most important skill for main hand axe.

Although if they did want to buff it, I think a cooldown reduction wouldn’t be a bad way. I’d say 12 seconds would work nicely (basically what a -20% trait would do). A 3/4 cast time is fairly standard for abilities like this, although I don’t think 1/2 second would be unreasonable either.

If they give it too much usability through a low cooldown, quicker cast times, and extra bonuses for hitting people at low health, then they’d likely reduce the damage to compensate for it, which I think is a bad trade.

Thank you Yamsandjams, your post made me look at Final Thrust in a different light, and in that respect when used properly with cripple doesn’t look all that bad. Also the possible changes that you proposed (if would be implemented) would better serve for a balance, as opposed to my suggestions. Either 1/2 second cast time or a 12 second cool-down timer. Thanks to everyone else who contributed to the discussion thus far

I like option no. 3 the most.

But let’s modify it a bit.

Options:

1)The cooldown is reduced to 10 seconds when you strike foe below 33% hp and he isn’t dead (30 sec ICD).

2)Final Thrust does +% of DoT damage the target suffers from when executed target below % HP

3)Final Thrust refreshes the durations of your current bleeds to original state when used on certain conditions.

Guys… Please look at the ele’s fire grab before you make topic like that – it has 45 sec cooldown, it is so terrible to hit with it, that target should be immobilised and to hit harder he must be burning… Oh did i mention it makes less dmg then eviscerate? Just lol (use your f1 immobilise).

PaulOnheiserJazz.1836:

With the various eviscerate builds, and how reliable/solid/low cool-down and high crit potential that eviscerate offers, its hard to justify using a S/Sh build.

Guess you missed the part where Sword has one of the best gapclosers in the game and ridiculous access to Cripple.

Not to mention that Final Thrust cleaves.

Option 1: Lower Final Thrust’s cool-down time to 8 seconds.
15 seconds is far too long for a 3rd weapon slot skill, with no way to reduce cool-down.

Option 2: Increase Final Thrusts Range/Lower ‘Animation Cast’ time.
Lets face it, it takes so long to cast that if you are crippled you are going to miss a backpedaling opponent, or the opponent is going to dodge well before you make the thrust. Or make the range longer- for a skill where you are reaching out 6 feet in front of you it feels like your hit box is only jabbing a foot in front of your character.

Option 3: If successfully hit on opponent with less then 50% health, cool-down is reduced by 66%
This is an interesting option, as it makes use of Final Thrust more skill oriented, instead of spam mode. If no other range/animation changes are made to the skill, this would make Final Thrust fun to use, and a potential 5.1 second cool-down would be strong incentive not to use it until target is below the 50% threshold.

1. 8 seconds is too low. Eviscerate is a burst skill, Final Thrust is a regular one. Obviously the former should be superior. With an 8s cooldown, that’s not true. Maybe try 12?
2. Final Thrust is a non-ranged melee skill, increasing its range wouldn’t make any sense. After all, Eviscerate is a Leap skill and it has 300 range. As for the cast time, the idea with a Warrior’s game changers (Eviscerate, Final Thrust, Kill Shot, Earthshaker, Skullcrack) is that your opponent is supposed to be able to react to their animation.
3. I don’t think that this is a good idea either. Are we talking “successful” as in actual damage? Or just using the skill on someone who has <50% hp? Because the former is most likely going to kill them anyway (and repeats go against the “Final” part in the name), whereas the latter results in the same complaints people have about Backstab: Spammable burst.

So in summary: If you want to change something, make the cooldown 12 seconds. Sword is not supposed to be a burst weapon competing against Axe, it’s a hybrid weapon with utility.

Make the blademaster trait grant 100% crit on final thrust. This way you make the sword and the trait for it actually worth taking and the skill will actually live up to it`s name.

Final thrust main issue for me is that its not worth using for most of the fight. It’s slow, and it’s sub-par damage till your target is in the red. I would rather it have normalized damage (so in the middle between where it is now at greater than 50% and less than 50) and just auto crit if a target is at less than 50% hp.

@Olba, Thanks for your input. I believe 12 second cooldown sounds like the fairest option to tweaking the skill without making it overpowered. I do however disagree with the fact that the skill seems to be lacking range. I’m not asking for 300 range, just something more pointed in front of the character. I attached a picture of the skill on full extension. I know the hit-box doesn’t go that far out

@Julie I can agree with the BladeMaster Trait, would be worth taking if you had 100% chance to crit. I wouldn’t see a need to make any other tweaks to the skill.

hows this:

greatly reduce the damage of final thrust, maybe to that of an autoattack, if not even less. increase the cooldown to something like 20s

but add this, removes all damaging conditions on your target (bleed, burn, poison, torment) and do all the damage the removed conditions would have done all at once.

actually necros ought to have a utility that does this.

“would have done” is pretty hard to calculate when things like might, etc are taken into consideration per tick. What if the enemy was half a second from popping a mass condi clear? Many balance issues/scenarios where that idea wouldn’t work.

Final Thrust is good with the cripple sword brings to the table. I prefer Sw/A though personally. Try this: sword auto for cripple>whirling Axe (builds full adrenaline/can ‘chase’ enemy through the channel)>savage leap(close any space)>immediately flurry>final thrust. This is a highly mobile combo with a lot of control built in with heavy damage and is executed fairly quick. The rapid hits can sometimes cause panic responses, they build up quickly, and, generally, make final thrust do exactly what the name implies. Bulls charge>whirling Axe>flurry>final thrust can be pretty nasty too

i think Final Thrust is fine .

and i agree buffing it will end the reign of Axe.

already Sword got mobility and a lock down that Axe cant do, also Sword can be used as a condi weapon while Axe cant.

so pretty understandable that Axe as a pure physical damage weapon with no mobility or a lock down should hit harder than Sword.

although a bit hard but a Sw/Sh warrior can beat an Axe warrior, with utilizing Sword mobility and lock down it can be done.

i think final thrust is at a very good spot right now.

i do not want warrior haters to cry for more nerfs.

Julie Yann.5379:

Make the blademaster trait grant 100% crit on final thrust. This way you make the sword and the trait for it actually worth taking and the skill will actually live up to it`s name.

You can actually get 100% crit chance with the sword by using this trait.

For instance: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJIQNAsXTjEdU5ZnHehwJaAjgyUAc+A2geWdYEFXBA-T1BBwAw03A4UK8T9nvK/i8kC0t/galgkCAiFAA-w

This build has a 96% crit chance with the sword, but it can easily get 100% if it changes a few things (i.e. different food/runes/gear stats). This build is condition-based, but you can reconfigure it to power based for a similar result.

Yamsandjams.3267:

Julie Yann.5379:

Make the blademaster trait grant 100% crit on final thrust. This way you make the sword and the trait for it actually worth taking and the skill will actually live up to it`s name.

You can actually get 100% crit chance with the sword by using this trait.

For instance: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJIQNAsXTjEdU5ZnHehwJaAjgyUAc+A2geWdYEFXBA-T1BBwAw03A4UK8T9nvK/i8kC0t/galgkCAiFAA-w

This build has a 96% crit chance with the sword, but it can easily get 100% if it changes a few things (i.e. different food/runes/gear stats). This build is condition-based, but you can reconfigure it to power based for a similar result.

I was thinking mainly of PvP where you don’t have access to foods and oils and going 20 points into defense is pretty much mandatory. The thing I hate most is going through all the trouble of setting up final thrust and it doesn’t crit. I might as well just have kept doing auto attacks for equal or greater damage.

Yamsandjams.3267:

Julie Yann.5379:

Make the blademaster trait grant 100% crit on final thrust. This way you make the sword and the trait for it actually worth taking and the skill will actually live up to it`s name.

You can actually get 100% crit chance with the sword by using this trait.

For instance: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJIQNAsXTjEdU5ZnHehwJaAjgyUAc+A2geWdYEFXBA-T1BBwAw03A4UK8T9nvK/i8kC0t/galgkCAiFAA-w

This build has a 96% crit chance with the sword, but it can easily get 100% if it changes a few things (i.e. different food/runes/gear stats). This build is condition-based, but you can reconfigure it to power based for a similar result.

That build is way overloaded on condition duration. You have 50% from Deep Cuts, 45% from Rune of Krait, 10% from 2 points into Strength and 40% from food. Change the food to Precision oriented stuff and you have your 100% crit rate. Or change one of the bleed-on-crit sigils for a Sigil of Perception and grab Lemongrass Poultry Soup for some condi defense.

Julie Yann.5379:

Yamsandjams.3267:

Julie Yann.5379:

Make the blademaster trait grant 100% crit on final thrust. This way you make the sword and the trait for it actually worth taking and the skill will actually live up to it`s name.

You can actually get 100% crit chance with the sword by using this trait.

For instance: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJIQNAsXTjEdU5ZnHehwJaAjgyUAc+A2geWdYEFXBA-T1BBwAw03A4UK8T9nvK/i8kC0t/galgkCAiFAA-w

This build has a 96% crit chance with the sword, but it can easily get 100% if it changes a few things (i.e. different food/runes/gear stats). This build is condition-based, but you can reconfigure it to power based for a similar result.

I was thinking mainly of PvP where you don’t have access to foods and oils and going 20 points into defense is pretty much mandatory. The thing I hate most is going through all the trouble of setting up final thrust and it doesn’t crit. I might as well just have kept doing auto attacks for equal or greater damage.

You can do it in PvP as well. Just pick rampager’s amulet with a similar trait configuration. You can actually exceed 100% crit chance with this. Alternatively, you could go for something like runes of the eagle with a berserker amulet to have a constant 94% crit chance while using the sword.

Furthermore, a non-crit final thrust will still out-damage an auto-attack chain very easily, unless perhaps the opponent isn’t below 50% health.

Olba.5376:

That build is way overloaded on condition duration. You have 50% from Deep Cuts, 45% from Rune of Krait, 10% from 2 points into Strength and 40% from food. Change the food to Precision oriented stuff and you have your 100% crit rate. Or change one of the bleed-on-crit sigils for a Sigil of Perception and grab Lemongrass Poultry Soup for some condi defense.

That’s more or less the entire point of the build. I mean, look at the auto-attack. 23 second bleeds is insane. Pin down could potentially kill someone twice over unless its cleansed (which isn’t hard to do).

It’s a really old build though, pre-cleansing ire and healing signet and all that.

Yamsandjams.3267:

Olba.5376:

That build is way overloaded on condition duration. You have 50% from Deep Cuts, 45% from Rune of Krait, 10% from 2 points into Strength and 40% from food. Change the food to Precision oriented stuff and you have your 100% crit rate. Or change one of the bleed-on-crit sigils for a Sigil of Perception and grab Lemongrass Poultry Soup for some condi defense.

That’s more or less the entire point of the build. I mean, look at the auto-attack. 23 second bleeds is insane. Pin down could potentially kill someone twice over unless its cleansed (which isn’t hard to do).

It’s a really old build though, pre-cleansing ire and healing signet and all that.

But condition duration% is capped at +100%?

Olba.5376:

Yamsandjams.3267:

Olba.5376:

That build is way overloaded on condition duration. You have 50% from Deep Cuts, 45% from Rune of Krait, 10% from 2 points into Strength and 40% from food. Change the food to Precision oriented stuff and you have your 100% crit rate. Or change one of the bleed-on-crit sigils for a Sigil of Perception and grab Lemongrass Poultry Soup for some condi defense.

That’s more or less the entire point of the build. I mean, look at the auto-attack. 23 second bleeds is insane. Pin down could potentially kill someone twice over unless its cleansed (which isn’t hard to do).

It’s a really old build though, pre-cleansing ire and healing signet and all that.

But condition duration% is capped at +100%?

Oh yeah I guess that’s true. Would probably be better to swap out the food then, unless some other conditions are thrown into the mix.

Although I don’t know if it takes it into account with condition duration reduction. For instance, if I have 140% bleed duration and they have -40% condition duration, I don’t know if that would end up being 60% or 100%.

Yamsandjams.3267:

You can do it in PvP as well. Just pick rampager’s amulet with a similar trait configuration. You can actually exceed 100% crit chance with this. Alternatively, you could go for something like runes of the eagle with a berserker amulet to have a constant 94% crit chance while using the sword.

Furthermore, a non-crit final thrust will still out-damage an auto-attack chain very easily, unless perhaps the opponent isn’t below 50% health.

1. Rampager no good for power builds. Final Thrust is not a condition based attack. Runes of Eagle, Zerk Amulet, and sigil of perception gets you close if you trait 30 points in arms but….see point 2

2. If you are not traiting cleansing ire in pvp you are asking for trouble which means you have to pull 20 points from your other trait lines. Arms and Strength is where I would take them from, given how great Burst Mastery works with Cleansing Ire.

3. You can pretty much land a full AA chain by the time Final Thrust goes through it’s precast, cast, and post cast. If 2 of those AAs crit (odds of that happening are pretty good) your damage is equal to a none crit final thrust, and you are still applying bleeds and cripples..

The idea behind my suggestion is to give tankier power sword builds a reliable burst without having to resort to sigil of intelligence or go to ridiculous lengths to get 100% crit on their builds and I don’t believe it would make a power sword warrior OP since FT is a difficult skill to land against anyone worth his salt.

It seems buggy. Sometimes ill hit for 8-12k on a final thrust on a target under 50% with no adrenaline and other times i’ll hit for 2-3k with full adrenaline. Yes these are the larger white crit numbers

/shrug

Julie Yann.5379:

1. Rampager no good for power builds. Final Thrust is not a condition based attack. Runes of Eagle, Zerk Amulet, and sigil of perception gets you close if you trait 30 points in arms but….see point 2

Right, I wouldn’t use rampager’s eithers, but you can get pretty close to 100% crit chance with a berserker amulet, which is much more useful for your typical power-based burst spec. Rampager’s can be useful if you want to hybridize your damage, which the sword can easily be built for, though I agree it’s not a good choice overall.

Julie Yann.5379:

2. If you are not traiting cleansing ire in pvp you are asking for trouble which means you have to pull 20 points from your other trait lines. Arms and Strength is where I would take them from, given how great Burst Mastery works with Cleansing Ire.

You can still trait for cleansing ire with 30 in arms. Burst mastery is not a necessity. Even still, you can dump 10 points from arms into discipline and still have a constant crit rate with the sword of around 95% (i.e.: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAseTjMdU5ZVIOewJaAogC5DsAHDgDQdTc5DBA-TJBBwAAOFA02focZgAPBAA)

Julie Yann.5379:

3. You can pretty much land a full AA chain by the time Final Thrust goes through it’s precast, cast, and post cast. If 2 of those AAs crit (odds of that happening are pretty good) your damage is equal to a none crit final thrust, and you are still applying bleeds and cripples..

I don’t see how the numbers support this. The power scaling of a final thrust hitting a target above 50% health is more than double that of the auto attacks, and a final thrust hitting a target under 50% health has quintiple the amount of power scaling. You also say that your crit is high enough to reliably crit 2/3 auto-attacks, so I don’t see why it’s not equally reliable to crit the final thrust 2/3 of the time as well. Maybe that 1/3 of the time it doesn’t, but 2/3 of the time it will and it’ll hit pretty hard.

Julie Yann.5379:

The idea behind my suggestion is to give tankier power sword builds a reliable burst without having to resort to sigil of intelligence or go to ridiculous lengths to get 100% crit on their builds and I don’t believe it would make a power sword warrior OP since FT is a difficult skill to land against anyone worth his salt.

I don’t see why a tankier build also needs a 100% guaranteed, high damage burst. There needs to be trade-offs for using things over something else. Part of building tankier is that you generally give up some damage potential, particularly high spike potential. The sword is simply not designed for massive burst, even though it has an incredibly hard hitting ability. Other weapons, like axe or rifle, can fill that role better. The sword gets other things like control, mobility, and the potential for extreme condition pressure.

Besides, changing the blademaster trait to only benefit final thrust screws over other builds that want to use the crit chance for things like condi procs (i.e. the bleeder build with sigils of earth).

The options are there to effectively do what you want, they’ve just made it so that you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Assassin X.8573:

It seems buggy. Sometimes ill hit for 8-12k on a final thrust on a target under 50% with no adrenaline and other times i’ll hit for 2-3k with full adrenaline. Yes these are the larger white crit numbers

/shrug

All dependent on the target’s armor value, whether or not they have protection, as well as various other mitigating factors (i.e. engineer’s stabilized armor, mesmer’s illusionary defense, &c.).

Yamsandjams.3267:

snip.

I just go by what I see on the screen. Normal AA hits for 700, crits for 1500. A non crit FT hits for 3500. If 2 AAs hit I have done more DPS. Even if only 1 hits I am pretty close when you factor in the bleed damage.

The Blademster as it is is very lackluster for a 20 point investment. Opportunist and Furious Reaction are much better options IMO.

i think that currently, Final Thrust is in a good spot. Like you said, eviscerate builds have such a high DPS – low “downside” to them, that all you need is axe + X and sword + X. Eviscerate then swap to sword and insta-kill almost anything in 2 maybe 3 shots.

Any changes making “final thrust” in its own a “viable” build option will make eviscerate builds completely overpowered.

I would however, not mind if Flurry and final thrust swapped places. Flurry gets the second stage adren immob, tad higher damage, and Final Thrust gets more and more damage depending on adren.

personal suggestion;
Adren stage 1 = todays base damage against enemies with 50% or less HP
Adren stage 2 = todays base damage against enemies with 50% or less HP + 7%
Adren stage 3 = todays base damage against enemies with 50% or less HP + 15%

This should open up for some more “flexibility” using sword, while making sure that final thrust is very very strong.

I see a lot of people upset when comparing numbers at face value instead of comparing the entire kit that they have. Axe has a nice aa, a meh #2, and the #3 basically has to be coupled with leg specialists to make any real threat with it. It all comes down to the burst skill which is great, although I disagree with having every burst skill being a 10 second cooldown (base). Some burst skills are far better than others for what they do in the time frame or single effect when talking about what the weapon kit offers but I suppose the combination of them is appropriate.

With axe/x its quite hard to land an eviscerate without an outside influence to help such as shield or leg specialists or a physical utility skill, sword you can get a instant cast immobilize (yes if they’re melee it’s kind of hard to predict an effect that takes place before any swings are made, could be a long time bug though), and land that final thrust no problem while also having a much better gap closer. Sword is a hybrid weapon anyways, it shouldn’t have any potential to match eviscerate’s damage despite having a longer cooldown.

On a semi related note, anet mentioned in their Ready up that warrior relies on adrenaline yet I have no problem getting it and with fast hands basically have an endless supply of skills to cycle through. Is this intended or are all burst skills equals, because I’d be willing to bet gs and rifle disagree as a kit.