Guild Wars 2

I feel for warriors, would have been nice if they did a shave like reduce adrenaline by half when you don’t do damage.

Then they could play mind games and use adrenaline at 1 bar to feign landing a burst skill and even if it lands it’s only an extra half a bar lost.

Cygnus.6903:

NinjaEd.3946:

Thief is far less forgiving even with such rules like not revealing when they haven’t dealt direct damage. Thief cannot make nearly as many mistakes as warrior, warrior’s need to not sulk in this “nerf” when all they had to do is just execute an F1 and win.

Although I agree thief is less forgiving and revealing them for everytime a random Aegis or blind prevents the damage is a bad idea, those random Aegis and blinds also prevent the damage from the warrior burst.

I think the nerf is a step in the right direction, although I do think it is a slight overnerf.

I main a warrior, and I also play thief secondary (playtime is about 4-1 in favor of warrior). I never lose a duel against a warrior on my thief, while I lose plenty the other way around.

Warrior doesn’t just have burst though they have sustained damaged. Axe auto attack is very strong, greatsword can still hit mighty hard and you get the occasional whirlwing attack in for several thousand, hammer (for w/e reason) hits for several thousand and although it is rather slow you can’t honestly expect someone to evade everything especially if they are baited into a cc chain which is certainly not hard to accomplish.

I wouldn’t say BS is the only damage source on d/x but it is most definitely the largest portion whether it be HS + BS (d/p) or CND + BS (d/d), they cannot risk sitting around using nothing but aa, and they HS can only be used once before the enemy anticipates another and counters them hard. Shadow shot is the only one with some defense and damage built into it but still its only 1 attack it helps avoid and it can’t be spammed without making you completely vulnerable.

There is no reason to cause reveal when you havn’t dealt any direct damage. Stealth is both a defense and offense and depending on the build, essential for them to do anything. Stealth itself could use some tweaks but if this debate boils down to people just spamming their stealth attack until it hits then I ask those to read my above suggestion so both parties get a little slice of the pie. On a familiar note:

-sneak attack bullets appear despite being stealthed, there is that counter (evade just right, take 1-2 bullets, reveals them and trashes their dps).

-Tactical strike only blinds on the front attack while dealing next to pathetic damage. The daze ain’t nice but s/x doesn’t use stealth for anything but repositioning.

-SB is the same as sneak attack however it is only 1 shot. Unless they had used SR their stealth shouldn’t be all that long for you to either just kite away using LoS to obstruct their arrow or spot the arrow incoming. Some block channel skills will not break form unless you hit them with melee so this ranged portion just gets ignored also.

Orpheal.8263:

D/D needs to get changed finally into a true power build, currently is a useless hybrid build thats to weak under power builds and useless as condition build.
If D/D would be more viable as true power build, then you’d not see so much P/D and S/D thieves around in this game. Also P/P needs some changes to become more viable with the other builds in comparison

Only the case in sPvP because of how they cap the effective yield of so many essential stats for D/D burst and how everyone has so much toughness and HP from the celestial amulet being OP combined with generally speaking more defensive stats in sPvP.

In PvE/WvW, D/D is the most effective power set the thief has since its power skills have incredible scaling and important stats aren’t cut.

It would be pretty nice if thieves actually got some form of counter play one of these days for just a single aspect of their class. No way to counter stealth beyond sic’ em or blind random aoe that only works on morons, no burden of skill on the thief to actually be able to land their own attacks in stealth, thieves ignore chill, thieves ignore interrupts, thieves ignore kiting with z axis teleports that don’t require LoS, thieves ignore kittening death with 800 escape tools. I get that there needs to be something for idiots and casuals to feel competitive with, but good god this kitten defies all logical reasoning.

Sweetbread.4701:

It would be pretty nice if thieves actually got some form of counter play one of these days for just a single aspect of their class. No way to counter stealth beyond sic’ em or blind random aoe that only works on morons, no burden of skill on the thief to actually be able to land their own attacks in stealth, thieves ignore chill, thieves ignore interrupts, thieves ignore kiting with z axis teleports that don’t require LoS, thieves ignore kittening death with 800 escape tools. I get that there needs to be something for idiots and casuals to feel competitive with, but good god this kitten defies all logical reasoning.

Please link 6/6/6/6/6 build, I want it O.o

NinjaEd.3946:

Sweetbread.4701:

It would be pretty nice if thieves actually got some form of counter play one of these days for just a single aspect of their class. No way to counter stealth beyond sic’ em or blind random aoe that only works on morons, no burden of skill on the thief to actually be able to land their own attacks in stealth, thieves ignore chill, thieves ignore interrupts, thieves ignore kiting with z axis teleports that don’t require LoS, thieves ignore kittening death with 800 escape tools. I get that there needs to be something for idiots and casuals to feel competitive with, but good god this kitten defies all logical reasoning.

Please link 6/6/6/6/6 build, I want it O.o

Somehow asking for just one thief mechanic to have some sort of actual counter play immediately translates to “lol 6/6/6/6/6 build”. Good to see the natural thief response to a list of things that lack counter play is hyperbole and misdirection without actually addressing anything brought up. Really shows the intelligence and thought put into these discussions by the people that desperately don’t want to lose their giant handicap.

I, for one, welcome the warrior changes.
Good thiefes are certainly the hardest thing to fight against, not as warrior maybe. But I have my troubles with it on my warrior. Landing an Earthshaker on a stealthed thief and seeing my adrenaline go down was a great indiciation of wether I hit him or not and I was able to follow up with more skills to damage the thief.

This mechanic will be gone now, ill miss it. Thiefes will be even harder to fight.

Additionally, whenever a thief attacks out of stealth there should be some visible effects. I’ve seen it sometimes and then I can dodge. But the thief attacking without revealing or effects is kinda stupid. I have no counterplay to them.
Considering the fact that warrior skills most of the time are easy to doge, its quite hard to fight them for me…

halp!

Zefrost.3425:

Stealth needs to be changed to work exactly like the adrenaline change. It’s called balance, guys. Stealth is WAY more forgiving than adrenaline.

---

- Guardian activated aegis when you stealthed? Good, he counterplayed you. I’m sure you’ll just stealth again in 4 seconds again anyway while his aegis is on a 90s cooldown.

- Necromancer used well of darkness and you missed? He counterplayed you with a 50s cooldown. Your stealth is on a 4s cooldown.

- Thief spamming evades while you’re stealthed? Nice, you’re both overpowered.

- Warrior used his shield block while you stealthed? Cool, he’s actually playing the game. His block is now on a 25s cooldown while you can stealth again in 4s.

- Meditation guardian using multiple sources of block, blind and evades while you’re stealthed? He’s using cooldowns to randomly try to mitigate your overpowered skills with no telegraphs because you’re INVISIBLE.

---

If warriors could use burst skills while in invisible every 4 seconds and spam EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE until it hits as well, the game would definitely reach esports status.

I really couldn’t have said it better myself.

alchemyst.2165:

Thieves shouldn’t get revealed on blind/block/aegis etc. It wouldn’t be proper counterplay to spam these blinds/blocks/aegis/evades and get a thief revealed. If so, you could probably reveal a thief literally every time he stealthed. Thief is already seriously unforgiving, even with our ports, evades, blinds, and stealths.

Miss a CnD? You’re susceptible to huge burst and left like a sitting duck.
Mistime a dodge? You’re screwed.
Miss mug at low hp? You’re dead.
Run out of initiative? Again, you’re a sitting duck.

I could go on. My point is, thief doesn’t need to be even MORE unforgiving. If this change happened thief would be unplayable.

Thief is the second most forgiving class of all. You dont have to pack defense to survive like other class. If you would run 3k toughness and some decent power, precision and crit dmg I guess it would be as much cheesy as P/D condi atm. But no one think out of the box in the thieves forum, i guess its because they are not in bad shape!

Klonko.8341:

alchemyst.2165:

Thieves shouldn’t get revealed on blind/block/aegis etc. It wouldn’t be proper counterplay to spam these blinds/blocks/aegis/evades and get a thief revealed. If so, you could probably reveal a thief literally every time he stealthed. Thief is already seriously unforgiving, even with our ports, evades, blinds, and stealths.

Miss a CnD? You’re susceptible to huge burst and left like a sitting duck.
Mistime a dodge? You’re screwed.
Miss mug at low hp? You’re dead.
Run out of initiative? Again, you’re a sitting duck.

I could go on. My point is, thief doesn’t need to be even MORE unforgiving. If this change happened thief would be unplayable.

Thief is the second most forgiving class of all. You dont have to pack defense to survive like other class. If you would run 3k toughness and some decent power, precision and crit dmg I guess it would be as much cheesy as P/D condi atm. But no one think out of the box in the thieves forum, i guess its because they are not in bad shape!

Usually the most forgiving professions are the ones with the most passives. The constant effects are like a cushion that mitigate the harshness of ensuing consequences as the player makes a mistake. With passives a player can have their survivability squared away without having to worry about it. That what makes a profession forgiving. However….

The only kind of defenses thieves have are all active. Stealth can drop targeting but can’t do much else unless traited and must be applied to provide those perks. Evasions and blinds are so short lived that the thief has to time it properly or else they waste it and take damage. And since they have low hp and armor to start with, taking damage is more punishing than on some other professions.

In addition, Thieves only have access to regen and stability in terms of defensive boons but they have the worst access to stability out of all the professions.

So, you are highly wrong for saying that the thief profession is any level of forgiving.

Sweetbread.4701:

NinjaEd.3946:

Sweetbread.4701:

It would be pretty nice if thieves actually got some form of counter play one of these days for just a single aspect of their class. No way to counter stealth beyond sic’ em or blind random aoe that only works on morons, no burden of skill on the thief to actually be able to land their own attacks in stealth, thieves ignore chill, thieves ignore interrupts, thieves ignore kiting with z axis teleports that don’t require LoS, thieves ignore kittening death with 800 escape tools. I get that there needs to be something for idiots and casuals to feel competitive with, but good god this kitten defies all logical reasoning.

Please link 6/6/6/6/6 build, I want it O.o

Somehow asking for just one thief mechanic to have some sort of actual counter play immediately translates to “lol 6/6/6/6/6 build”. Good to see the natural thief response to a list of things that lack counter play is hyperbole and misdirection without actually addressing anything brought up. Really shows the intelligence and thought put into these discussions by the people that desperately don’t want to lose their giant handicap.

More like the lack of experience against and with these discussions are severealy lacking and when people just look at things for their face value without any consideration of the class as a whole it puts a skewed view making any room for an honest discussion impossible. You shouldn’t just list off things that thief is capable of all at once and try sounding it off as some OP unicorn build, so again either link that 6/6/6/6/6 build or quit trying to paint thief under a heinous light.

Shockwave.1230:

Monoman.2068:

I at least believe that a thief should be revealed if you dodge their attack with an evade and only an evade. This requires legitimate skill since your two evades cannot be abused like weapon based evades, blocks, blinds, invulnerabilities.

In reality though I agree with the OP and the thief should be altered till it makes sense rather than having a large heap of exceptions for the class to even exist.

Just a thought, but maybe people play the class because they like it conceptually? Would you remove attunements from ele’s or Illusions from mesmers?

Wrong choice of words on my part. I don’t mean flip the thief upside down, but leaving thieves partially immune to chill because of initiative or being forced out of stealth because it is their main way to deal damage is all around bad design.

I wouldn’t remove attunements from ele/illusions from mesmers but if they could only exist by ignoring large portions of the game, you can bet I would alter them.

Monoman.2068:

Shockwave.1230:

Monoman.2068:

I at least believe that a thief should be revealed if you dodge their attack with an evade and only an evade. This requires legitimate skill since your two evades cannot be abused like weapon based evades, blocks, blinds, invulnerabilities.

In reality though I agree with the OP and the thief should be altered till it makes sense rather than having a large heap of exceptions for the class to even exist.

Just a thought, but maybe people play the class because they like it conceptually? Would you remove attunements from ele’s or Illusions from mesmers?

Wrong choice of words on my part. I don’t mean flip the thief upside down, but leaving thieves partially immune to chill because of initiative or being forced out of stealth because it is their main way to deal damage is all around bad design.

I wouldn’t remove attunements from ele/illusions from mesmers but if they could only exist by ignoring large portions of the game, you can bet I would alter them.

Chill not impacting thief weapon skills does not create a problem. Even if the thief ever became OP in the meta it will not be because chill doesn’t affect their weapon skills.

What you call bad design of stealth attacks is the actual design and playstyle of dagger builds. You just don’t like that it plays that way. Other people do.

Besides you don’t want someone like me or players better than I to be able to play a dagger build viably without having to properly backstab. That just means those of us that consistently land backstabs from behind would in fact be OP.

Zefrost.3425:

Stealth needs to be changed to work exactly like the adrenaline change. It’s called balance, guys. Stealth is WAY more forgiving than adrenaline.

---

- Guardian activated aegis when you stealthed? Good, he counterplayed you. I’m sure you’ll just stealth again in 4 seconds again anyway while his aegis is on a 90s cooldown.

- Necromancer used well of darkness and you missed? He counterplayed you with a 50s cooldown. Your stealth is on a 4s cooldown.

- Thief spamming evades while you’re stealthed? Nice, you’re both overpowered.

- Warrior used his shield block while you stealthed? Cool, he’s actually playing the game. His block is now on a 25s cooldown while you can stealth again in 4s.

- Meditation guardian using multiple sources of block, blind and evades while you’re stealthed? He’s using cooldowns to randomly try to mitigate your overpowered skills with no telegraphs because you’re INVISIBLE.

---

If warriors could use burst skills while in invisible every 4 seconds and spam EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE until it hits as well, the game would definitely reach esports status.

L2P dude, you seriously have a problem with thiefs if that really is your opinion.
If a thief would get revealed for a missed opening try thiefs that rely on stealth would be out of the game.

I suggest you reroll thief yourself and rethink your statments after a few games vs competent opponents.

Thiefs stealth mechanic is okay the way it is, and after the patch hits there will be even more “counterplay” ….

And to use one of your analogies, if someone dodges a warrios “uncoverd” Eviscerate he outplayed you. But no problem, you can try again in a couple of secs cause your endurace gain will stay the same in combat.

A warrior can always cover his evis with a stun ( from shield or bullscharge ) or with imob from bolas for example. And an eviscerate hits harder that a backstab and does not need any kind of possitioning.

Well, ppl like you will never understand that, so i suggest reroll thief to view your proposals through a thiefs eyes.

I play a D/D 2/6/6/0/0 thief and I once fought a glass axe warrior with a pure DPS build. My backstab hit him for around 5k crit max while he dealt 11.7k damage with eviscerate. I dodged many eviscerates but once in a while, that stun or bolas he throws lands and he just deletes you.

I have a level 80 warrior as well and I tried his build. While you’re squishy (for a warrior), you can still take double the beating a thief can easily while dishing out 10k damage on the regular. Not to mention the auto’s cleave and can hit up towards 3k.

A thief has to set up his damage. Do you know how hard it is to consistently land backstabs? In spvp they barely go above 6k on glass targets. I’ve seen it crit for 2k on guardians. Meanwhile this skill requires to land on the back, which is quite hard against an opponent that knows to move. Eviscerate has more damage, doesn’t require you to hit the back, gap closes and has a really short cooldown. When the cooldown is there, you still have your auto’s that hit for 2k easily, and you have innate tankiness and sustain.

Can a thief outplay others and even get away in really sticky situations? Yes, mostly. But that requires thinking and knowing when to go in. One CC is often enough to kill a thief with a combo.

vinceftw.5086:

ICan a thief outplay others and even get away in really sticky situations? Yes, mostly. But that requires thinking and knowing when to go in. One CC is often enough to kill a thief with a combo.

So hard to do that most beginners in WWW roll thieves for roaming and are effective.

You would be surprised what they say when they try other professions.

Thief is said to have high skill floor in PvP.
But for sure has the lowest skill floor of ANY profession in WWW.

One cc is enough to force a poor thief to cast a panic button actually…..it has more than 1.

Also there is the condi thief that is not even half bad.

NinjaEd.3946:

Thief is far less forgiving even with such rules like not revealing when they haven’t dealt direct damage. Thief cannot make nearly as many mistakes as warrior, warrior’s need to not sulk in this “nerf” when all they had to do is just execute an F1 and win.

Actually thieves can make way more mistakes then warrior due to the fact that they can disengage whenever they feel like.

While a warrior, you pretty much go in, do your kitten or die while chased by enemy thief
unless if you are lucky that no one chased you.

Simon.3794:

NinjaEd.3946:

Thief is far less forgiving even with such rules like not revealing when they haven’t dealt direct damage. Thief cannot make nearly as many mistakes as warrior, warrior’s need to not sulk in this “nerf” when all they had to do is just execute an F1 and win.

Actually thieves can make way more mistakes then warrior due to the fact that they can disengage whenever they feel like.

While a warrior, you pretty much go in, do your kitten or die while chased by enemy thief
unless if you are lucky that no one chased you.

Pretty sure mobility warrior can disengage a fight at will. Also if they disengage and run away while you regen to full for being ooc, did they really win?

Running away isn’t forgiving, taking heavy hits and cc and easily recovering from it while still maintaining your damage is forgiving. Being deceived from a stealth class is entirely to blame yourself for especially if you’re dying to “perma stealth” because of how bad those people play.

NinjaEd.3946:

Sweetbread.4701:

NinjaEd.3946:

Sweetbread.4701:

It would be pretty nice if thieves actually got some form of counter play one of these days for just a single aspect of their class. No way to counter stealth beyond sic’ em or blind random aoe that only works on morons, no burden of skill on the thief to actually be able to land their own attacks in stealth, thieves ignore chill, thieves ignore interrupts, thieves ignore kiting with z axis teleports that don’t require LoS, thieves ignore kittening death with 800 escape tools. I get that there needs to be something for idiots and casuals to feel competitive with, but good god this kitten defies all logical reasoning.

Please link 6/6/6/6/6 build, I want it O.o

Somehow asking for just one thief mechanic to have some sort of actual counter play immediately translates to “lol 6/6/6/6/6 build”. Good to see the natural thief response to a list of things that lack counter play is hyperbole and misdirection without actually addressing anything brought up. Really shows the intelligence and thought put into these discussions by the people that desperately don’t want to lose their giant handicap.

More like the lack of experience against and with these discussions are severealy lacking and when people just look at things for their face value without any consideration of the class as a whole it puts a skewed view making any room for an honest discussion impossible. You shouldn’t just list off things that thief is capable of all at once and try sounding it off as some OP unicorn build, so again either link that 6/6/6/6/6 build or quit trying to paint thief under a heinous light.

Oh look you still haven’t refuted or argued against anything I’ve said, just whined because instead of approaching this objectively you’re approaching it as “they’re all picking on MY class! Those jerks!”. I’m listing all of the things that thief has that have no counter play or are just a flat out double standards compared to every other class in the game. Maybe one or two exceptions for flavor would make sense, but atm it looks like a “heinous” list, because it IS heinous. There’s no refuting it, there’s no justifying it, its just flat out bad design that caters to kittenty players.

Shockwave.1230:

The reason you can’t do this is that blind, aegis, and 1 time block skills would completely prevent thief from being able to deal damage while in stealth. Thus means when a thief stealths all it can do is run away or eat damage.

umm… you can do exactly all that to the F1 skill… your point is invalid.

NinjaEd.3946:

Thief is far less forgiving even with such rules like not revealing when they haven’t dealt direct damage. Thief cannot make nearly as many mistakes as warrior, warrior’s need to not sulk in this “nerf” when all they had to do is just execute an F1 and win.

yes warrior F1 burst is more forgiving than….
Hide in Shadows,
Blinding Powder,
Shadow Refuge,
Combo Field: Smoke × Combo Finisher: Blast
Combo Field: Smoke × Combo Finisher: Leap,
Hidden Thief (When stealing)
Instinctual Response (when you take more than 10% of your health in a single strike)
Last Refuge (when your health reaches 25%)
Descent of Shadows (when you take falling damage)

so simple math says: 1 (warrior single F1 burst skill) < (is less than) 9 (NINE options for stealth)

gg.nr.gfus

LOL . . . there is nothing funnier than a warrior asking to nerf other profressions.

Comparing apples with oranges . . .LOL.

So I’ve been getting a lot of whispers in game because of this, just wanted to say again that it was just a vague opinion, I understand a lot from both sides as a thief and warrior, I’m not asking for a straight up nerf or anything I’m not suggesting any compensation of any sort, I just wanted to see other peoples opinion

Assassin X.8573:

NinjaEd.3946:

Thief is far less forgiving even with such rules like not revealing when they haven’t dealt direct damage. Thief cannot make nearly as many mistakes as warrior, warrior’s need to not sulk in this “nerf” when all they had to do is just execute an F1 and win.

yes warrior F1 burst is more forgiving than….
Hide in Shadows,
Blinding Powder,
Shadow Refuge,
Combo Field: Smoke × Combo Finisher: Blast
Combo Field: Smoke × Combo Finisher: Leap,
Hidden Thief (When stealing)
Instinctual Response (when you take more than 10% of your health in a single strike)
Last Refuge (when your health reaches 25%)
Descent of Shadows (when you take falling damage)

so simple math says: 1 (warrior single F1 burst skill) < (is less than) 9 (NINE options for stealth)

gg.nr.gfus

1. Cast time, weak heal regardless, a thief having this interrupted is usually GG.
2. Any different from The prestige? Or decoy? Or cloaking device? Lets just give all stealth skills an obvious cast time, and make thieves have to rub two sticks together to obtain stealth.
3. Not sure what that has to do with forgivness, especially when it either costs a lot of initiative or long cooldowns to accomplish and can only be done once.
4. Here, let me pick an obviously BS build and use that as my justification to nerf the entire class…. >.>
5. bugged first off, secondly few people pick this trait because steal→ cnd → backstab or bps→HS→bs has more damage with it and can be done as frequently if not more so. Lets be realistic here.
6. Because everyone runs this trait right? I mean its obviously OP, lets talk about last stand and spiked armor shall we? I mean there is too much skill involved with those traits.
7. You do realize this skill naturally causes reveal in most situations right? Have you been on these forums ever or did the countless posts asking to change or remove this trait just slip by you?
8. falling damage traits OP yo

Simple math: My sneakers do not equal your belt. Next time try to compare things that are cut from the same cloth please.

After this patch, thieves are not what you need to worry about.

Zefrost.3425:

Stealth needs to be changed to work exactly like the adrenaline change. It’s called balance, guys. Stealth is WAY more forgiving than adrenaline.

---

- Guardian activated aegis when you stealthed? Good, he counterplayed you. I’m sure you’ll just stealth again in 4 seconds again anyway while his aegis is on a 90s cooldown.

- Necromancer used well of darkness and you missed? He counterplayed you with a 50s cooldown. Your stealth is on a 4s cooldown.

- Thief spamming evades while you’re stealthed? Nice, you’re both overpowered.

- Warrior used his shield block while you stealthed? Cool, he’s actually playing the game. His block is now on a 25s cooldown while you can stealth again in 4s.

- Meditation guardian using multiple sources of block, blind and evades while you’re stealthed? He’s using cooldowns to randomly try to mitigate your overpowered skills with no telegraphs because you’re INVISIBLE.

---

If warriors could use burst skills while in invisible every 4 seconds and spam EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE until it hits as well, the game would definitely reach esports status.

Good night everyone, please go home, you simply cant post anything greater than this. This post should be stickied, framed, printed on hollywood’s stars street, put on a golden tablet and sent to space where other civilizations will find it one day and realize how advanced our race was.

Fortus.6175:

Zefrost.3425:

Stealth needs to be changed to work exactly like the adrenaline change. It’s called balance, guys. Stealth is WAY more forgiving than adrenaline.

---

- Guardian activated aegis when you stealthed? Good, he counterplayed you. I’m sure you’ll just stealth again in 4 seconds again anyway while his aegis is on a 90s cooldown.

- Necromancer used well of darkness and you missed? He counterplayed you with a 50s cooldown. Your stealth is on a 4s cooldown.

- Thief spamming evades while you’re stealthed? Nice, you’re both overpowered.

- Warrior used his shield block while you stealthed? Cool, he’s actually playing the game. His block is now on a 25s cooldown while you can stealth again in 4s.

- Meditation guardian using multiple sources of block, blind and evades while you’re stealthed? He’s using cooldowns to randomly try to mitigate your overpowered skills with no telegraphs because you’re INVISIBLE.

---

If warriors could use burst skills while in invisible every 4 seconds and spam EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE until it hits as well, the game would definitely reach esports status.

Good night everyone, please go home, you simply cant post anything greater than this. This post should be stickied, framed, printed on hollywood’s stars street, put on a golden tablet and sent to space where other civilizations will find it one day and realize how advanced our race was.

That would be great but it really only applies to people who believe the only counter is a kittene. Enough general skill and knowledge will counter everything.