Warrior true weakness
No, it’s not because I don’t like it but rather don’t you find it true that warriors are getting a lot just for putting in a few trait points? I guess your hostility means I hit a spot. And what’s more, this kind of argument will be more fruitful than those “L2P issues” excuses which will get you nowhere. The reasoning was thoroughly explained, you need to read it again.
I have no problems with warriors having both warriors sprint and fast hands or having all 3 of Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire as long as they fairly invest for it.
But seriously that kind of attitude will get you nowhere. You’re putting words into my mouth and your sarcasm failed miserably.
See – you’re assuming. It’s not that you hit a spot – the problem is that you missed it by so much it actually hurts.
Warrior’s sprint and fast hands weren’t an issue since the game was launched but lately ANYTHING about the warrior has been suggested to be godawful OP and terribly strong.
Because the overall flavor of the forums this month has been that warriors are the punching bag of all players that are more or less informed but mostly just angry.
I’ve seen objective and fair arguments made. I’ve seen threads that just went " nerf warrior because i’m mad ". I’ve pretty much read it all.No – i don’t believe you’re right – you’re saying that they should invest " fairly" but exactly what is and what is not a fair investment isn’t really up to you.
Here’s a thought – warriors had sprint and fast hands before other changes were made and nobody complained about that particular trait investment.
Overall the whole " nerf warrior " phenomenon is happening because too many bads are dying at the hands of a high prevalence profession. And they’re clogging the forums with negative QQ about how the big bad warriors clobbered them instead of maybe considering what’s wrong with their own particular classes if they feel so underpowered.
A 10/10 warrior player will have a VERY hard time and most likely lose to a 10/10 player of other classes.
Sure, then can you please quote me where I said Warrior’s sprint is OP because I’m 100% sure what I said was it was usually paired with Warrior’s Sprint (or any other trait) in addition to fast hands. Now who’s assuming? Stop putting words into my mouth and start reading.
And no, I don’t die to warriors a lot anymore since I’ve learned from them that I need to start running away as well when things go bad though I can’t run as good as them. Don’t worry it’s a good thing.
P.S I still have to hear your thoughts about the Defense trait line. It seems you’re avoiding the topic of how it is a “package” trait line for 20 points.
(edited by Kyon.9735)
I’m getting tired of this pointless circle-jerk.
Some counters, going with Hambow as it’s the most common, some of these examples can be beaten by other Warrior builds but those would in term lose to builds Hambow may not etc.:
1. PU Mesmer. Having all your AIs scattered about makes them not be taken out by Combustive Shot. With all of the stun breaks, teleports, and blurred frenzy you should never be hit by a full Hammer combo.
2. Melee Ranger. The build I’ve found that works best was Axe/Dagger+Sword/Torch with 0/0/30/30/10. I lost to this a few times and tried it out for myself and even with my terrible mastery of the playstyle (I find it odd to let my skills do most of the moving for me and end up canceling skills by accident) I could beat most meta Warrior builds. It has insane regen, but also tons of protection. In fact the person I got this build off of beat pretty much every 1v1 I saw them get into. Undead runes with Rabid gear makes them capable of large condi spikes and most importantly they almost always have poison applied. Add it Rampage as One and for 20 seconds the Warrior can do very little damage to you and you can force them to use most of their long CD condition skills while it’s up.
3. Standard Condi Necro with Golem. The one big mistake I always see Necros make is that they use all their best skills at the start and while Berseker Stance is up. You have to putt on just enough condis to force the stance, kite while it’s active, then wait until they use their burst and pile everything on. If you see them go for another burst to cleanse use the Goelm’s charge to either force them to use their Stability (Hambow only brings generally, contrary to popular belief) and if you can corrupt it while laying down the Fear you’re a shoe-in. Now, if they have say Signet of Stamina they may win,but that means they went full on into countering you and it makes them weaker to the other 2 builds mentioned.
4. Damage Guardian. I don’t know a ton about this build but I do know that with all of their blind, high damage, and access to invulnerability that they have a strong chance of beating the Warrior, especially if you get the upper hand early. Same thing as Necro, don’t waste your blinds when Zerker Stance is up and use your blocks that will last you for most of the duration and then blind the big telegraphed Hammer attacks and it’s cash money.
5. Blind Thieves. Similar to Guardian, it’s all about saving your blinds for the big telegraphed attacks and suddenly their DPS is kitten poor. Especially potent is using the steal skill in a blind field, it’s probably the most annoying thing ever to a Warrior.
I’m sure there’s a few more I’ve forgotten but I feel that 5 makes my point, play defensive when Zerker Stance is up, then negate all of the Hammer’s big attacks. Also of note, Pin Down actually does have a different animation, there’s circles around the arrow as it flies. Now this is harder to see coming in CQC but don’t you worry because that’s getting nearly a second charge time soon so at that point Warrior will be the undisputed king of obvious and highly telegraphed attacks.
My biggest gripe with this forum is that I hardly ever hear anyone seriously trying to counter the current meta. Most just instantly throw their hands up in the air when something beats their current build and demand it gets nerfed without even attempting to find a solution. It’s getting really annoying because even in real life everyone wants the solution handed to them on a silver platter rather than trying to fix things yourself.
I like how you put necro and kite in there together during the part of the fight that nothing can slow you down. I mean its easy right?
I found it funny that he referenced guardian’s ‘access to invulnerability’. Because 2 seconds from an elite with a 90 second cooldown is totally superior to anything warrior has.
It’s fun how if you use it vs a Earthshaker and follow up with your damage you’ve all but won the fight. I never said they had a lot of invul, but it’s a factor as is all the blinds, aegis, and blocks from weapon skills. As for Necro, Spectral Walk is a wonderful skill for the job.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
I’m getting tired of this pointless circle-jerk.
Some counters, going with Hambow as it’s the most common, some of these examples can be beaten by other Warrior builds but those would in term lose to builds Hambow may not etc.:
1. PU Mesmer. Having all your AIs scattered about makes them not be taken out by Combustive Shot. With all of the stun breaks, teleports, and blurred frenzy you should never be hit by a full Hammer combo.
2. Melee Ranger. The build I’ve found that works best was Axe/Dagger+Sword/Torch with 0/0/30/30/10. I lost to this a few times and tried it out for myself and even with my terrible mastery of the playstyle (I find it odd to let my skills do most of the moving for me and end up canceling skills by accident) I could beat most meta Warrior builds. It has insane regen, but also tons of protection. In fact the person I got this build off of beat pretty much every 1v1 I saw them get into. Undead runes with Rabid gear makes them capable of large condi spikes and most importantly they almost always have poison applied. Add it Rampage as One and for 20 seconds the Warrior can do very little damage to you and you can force them to use most of their long CD condition skills while it’s up.
3. Standard Condi Necro with Golem. The one big mistake I always see Necros make is that they use all their best skills at the start and while Berseker Stance is up. You have to putt on just enough condis to force the stance, kite while it’s active, then wait until they use their burst and pile everything on. If you see them go for another burst to cleanse use the Goelm’s charge to either force them to use their Stability (Hambow only brings generally, contrary to popular belief) and if you can corrupt it while laying down the Fear you’re a shoe-in. Now, if they have say Signet of Stamina they may win,but that means they went full on into countering you and it makes them weaker to the other 2 builds mentioned.
4. Damage Guardian. I don’t know a ton about this build but I do know that with all of their blind, high damage, and access to invulnerability that they have a strong chance of beating the Warrior, especially if you get the upper hand early. Same thing as Necro, don’t waste your blinds when Zerker Stance is up and use your blocks that will last you for most of the duration and then blind the big telegraphed Hammer attacks and it’s cash money.
5. Blind Thieves. Similar to Guardian, it’s all about saving your blinds for the big telegraphed attacks and suddenly their DPS is kitten poor. Especially potent is using the steal skill in a blind field, it’s probably the most annoying thing ever to a Warrior.
I’m sure there’s a few more I’ve forgotten but I feel that 5 makes my point, play defensive when Zerker Stance is up, then negate all of the Hammer’s big attacks. Also of note, Pin Down actually does have a different animation, there’s circles around the arrow as it flies. Now this is harder to see coming in CQC but don’t you worry because that’s getting nearly a second charge time soon so at that point Warrior will be the undisputed king of obvious and highly telegraphed attacks.
My biggest gripe with this forum is that I hardly ever hear anyone seriously trying to counter the current meta. Most just instantly throw their hands up in the air when something beats their current build and demand it gets nerfed without even attempting to find a solution. It’s getting really annoying because even in real life everyone wants the solution handed to them on a silver platter rather than trying to fix things yourself.
I like how you put necro and kite in there together during the part of the fight that nothing can slow you down. I mean its easy right?
I found it funny that he referenced guardian’s ‘access to invulnerability’. Because 2 seconds from an elite with a 90 second cooldown is totally superior to anything warrior has.
It’s fun how if you use it vs a Earthshaker and follow up with your damage you’ve all but won the fight. I never said they had a lot of invul, but it’s a factor as is all the blinds, aegis, and blocks from weapon skills. As for Necro, Spectral Walk is a wonderful skill for the job.
The only viable DPS build guardian currently has is burst meditation, which will hardly ensure a victory against someone with a free damage immunity skill like endure pain. That aside though, a good guardian can beat a warrior, but I’ll be kitten ed if a good guardian can catch one.
The low trait investment argument leads to this:
Just because warriors can get good stuff without having to trait too far into a certain line doesn’t mean it is unfair. Other professions can trait more heavily into their own trees and get to a point where their specialization outmatches the warriors’ (generally whether or not the warrior does invest heavily in a tree).
For instance, I have no qualms putting 30 points into marksmanship, skirmishing, wilderness survival, nature magic, or the beast master lines on my ranger. The signet usage + vulnerability application, trap + interrupt traits, condition clear + damage reduction, spirit usage + shout regen, and the quickness + pet buff means I can hold my own against almost any warrior build no matter how I play.
Also, if you are getting frustrated over the warrior running away there are definitely means to catch them (more so in pvp than wvw, but I’ll let you figure those out!).
except every line doesnt give u dmg+toughness+condicleanse+regen
all lines are specialized
This is where weapons, trait selection, gear, consumables, and class mechanics come into play…..
Edit: forgot utilities, elites, rune and sigil selection.
Because gear, consumables, runes and sigils are warrior exclusive. Right.
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
I think the real issue is that currently Warriors are currently rewarded far more than other professions for not specializing. For example, if a Warrior had to run Cleric’s gear to have high sustain, I wouldn’t think anything of it. But they don’t. They just equip Healing Signet and boom, they have high sustain.
I wouldn’t mind if they had to spec heavily into defense to be impossible to burst down, but they really don’t. Almost every weapon set has significant damage mitigation capabilities built in (Axe/Axe is the only one I can think of that doesn’t) and on top of that, they have numerous utilities and even a heal option where they simply do not take damage.
About the only things Warriors actually have to spec into is damage, but since that is the only thing they need to spec for, there’s no reason to not do it.
Biggest thing I would do would be to heavily nerf the base values of the Healing Signet passive and Adrenal Health, but also drastically boost the Healing Power scaling (say, up to 20% from the current 5% on the signet). At bare minimum, this forces the Warrior to actually spec for heavy sustain if they want it. Addressing the other roles that should be specced for is more complex, but sustain, at least, has an easy thing to point to and say “this needs to change”.
I think the real issue is that currently Warriors are currently rewarded far more than other professions for not specializing.
Because warrior in current state cannot outperform specialized classes. Roamer? Thief and mesmer are better. Bunker? Guardian laughing at you. Condi? Lol, not even close to necro and engi. Ranged damage? What is that? PvE damage? Only as banner/shoutbot, sorry, staff ele damage is WAY higher.
All you can do best is spec to some good mediocre meta build and run with group. Bunker, hambow, condispike, zerk, killshot rifle – they all rely on having teammates nearby to be effective.
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
I think the real issue is that currently Warriors are currently rewarded far more than other professions for not specializing.
Because warrior in current state cannot outperform specialized classes. Roamer? Thief and mesmer are better. Bunker? Guardian laughing at you. Condi? Lol, not even close to necro and engi. Ranged damage? What is that? PvE damage? Only as banner/shoutbot, sorry, staff ele damage is WAY higher.
All you can do best is spec to some good mediocre meta build and run with group.
Not quite. You may not be the best at anything, but when you’re sitting at 80-95% effectiveness of the specialists (varying with specific area and exactly which profession you are comparing it to), you really aren’t giving enough up for what you get in return.
What you’re trying to say is “But compared to [specialist] Warriors aren’t better at X if they specialize.”
What I’m saying is “They aren’t better at X, than [specialist] but they are far better at L, O, Y, and Z without changing anything, and still pretty good at X too.”
Normally, I would say the way to change this is to nerf the base values and raise the scaling, but on most of the Warrior’s kit, this doesn’t work because it isn’t strictly numeric advantages. Also, a large amount can’t be changed because of how it would require reworks of far more than just Warrior mechanics, but rather the entire game.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
While warrior is op, i did single out 3 things they don’t have:
1. Any source of protection. Rangers owning them hard in sustainability right now.
2. Any combo fields save one single one from bow.
3. Any sort of AI minion to soak up extra hits.
While warrior is op, i did single out 3 things they don’t have:
1. Any source of protection. Rangers owning them hard in sustainability right now.
2. Any combo fields save one single one from bow.
3. Any sort of AI minion to soak up extra hits.
Regarding the first two, they may not have them innately (albeit, about half of the professions can’t reliably get it via skills anyway, so they aren’t alone in that regard) but they can still be given by allies, and warriors aren’t exactly lacking in finishers anyway. Thus balancing them under the assumption they will lack those things ends up making them overpowered when they get them…that is, in any party (just open the lfg and see how many warriors seek for guardians and the opposite, too…often leading to 1 guard/4 warriors parties). Such a dominance in pve isn’t exactly surprising if they are balanced upon those assumption, so.
Regarding the last point…they are actually lucky in that regard. If banners were destructible – like turrets – how much do you think their uptime would be?
They would end up being as useless as turrets, since they would be always on cooldown. Heh, the only turret actually used is the healing one…and that’s because engineers detonate it themselves.
Also, they can use endure pain…and it is quite more reliable than a minion to absorb damage and act in the meantime.
Sure, then can you please quote me where I said Warrior’s sprint is OP because I’m 100% sure what I said was it was usually paired with Warrior’s Sprint (or any other trait) in addition to fast hands. Now who’s assuming? Stop putting words into my mouth and start reading.
And no, I don’t die to warriors a lot anymore since I’ve learned from them that I need to start running away as well when things go bad though I can’t run as good as them. Don’t worry it’s a good thing.
P.S I still have to hear your thoughts about the Discipline trait line. It seems you’re avoiding the topic of how it is a “package” trait line for 20 points.
I’m just pointing out that if you feel warrior is op it might be because of the defense tree and not the discipline one.
The discipline traits were in this state even when warriors weren’t considered OP by everyone and nobody complained about it.
I personally don’t favor the discipline trait line – I don’t really consider 20 points in that to be a " package".
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Sure, then can you please quote me where I said Warrior’s sprint is OP because I’m 100% sure what I said was it was usually paired with Warrior’s Sprint (or any other trait) in addition to fast hands. Now who’s assuming? Stop putting words into my mouth and start reading.
And no, I don’t die to warriors a lot anymore since I’ve learned from them that I need to start running away as well when things go bad though I can’t run as good as them. Don’t worry it’s a good thing.
P.S I still have to hear your thoughts about the Discipline trait line. It seems you’re avoiding the topic of how it is a “package” trait line for 20 points.
I’m just pointing out that if you feel warrior is op it might be because of the defense tree and not the discipline one.
The discipline traits were in this state even when warriors weren’t considered OP by everyone and nobody complained about it.I personally don’t favor the discipline trait line – I don’t really consider 20 points in that to be a " package".
Yes, I stand corrected. What I meant was the Defense Tree Line. Thanks for the heads up, gonna edit them and sorry for the misunderstanding. Turns out I should be the one reading my own posts.
(edited by Kyon.9735)
I think the real issue is that currently Warriors are currently rewarded far more than other professions for not specializing. For example, if a Warrior had to run Cleric’s gear to have high sustain, I wouldn’t think anything of it. But they don’t. They just equip Healing Signet and boom, they have high sustain.
I wouldn’t mind if they had to spec heavily into defense to be impossible to burst down, but they really don’t. Almost every weapon set has significant damage mitigation capabilities built in (Axe/Axe is the only one I can think of that doesn’t) and on top of that, they have numerous utilities and even a heal option where they simply do not take damage.
About the only things Warriors actually have to spec into is damage, but since that is the only thing they need to spec for, there’s no reason to not do it.
Biggest thing I would do would be to heavily nerf the base values of the Healing Signet passive and Adrenal Health, but also drastically boost the Healing Power scaling (say, up to 20% from the current 5% on the signet). At bare minimum, this forces the Warrior to actually spec for heavy sustain if they want it. Addressing the other roles that should be specced for is more complex, but sustain, at least, has an easy thing to point to and say “this needs to change”.
Most weapon sets for most classes have ways to avoid damage.
What other heal in the game requires heavy investment in healing power before it’s worth slotting? You can’t start a precedent like this unless you’re prepared to follow through with it for every class.
If the only thing Warriors need to spec into is damage, why do no Warriors spec into damage? The meta specs right now are 0/0/30/30/10 (or something close like 0/0/25/30/15) or 0/0/30/10/30. Neither of these are investing in damage. It’s all utility.
Has anyone who has formed an opinion that the class is overpowered actually played the class so they can actually offer an informed and unbiased opinion on the class? Every post in this thread is just people looking to eviscerate the class instead of actually balance it. The class is overpowered, but the ideas people come up with leave me thinking no one has actually played it…
Sure, then can you please quote me where I said Warrior’s sprint is OP because I’m 100% sure what I said was it was usually paired with Warrior’s Sprint (or any other trait) in addition to fast hands. Now who’s assuming? Stop putting words into my mouth and start reading.
And no, I don’t die to warriors a lot anymore since I’ve learned from them that I need to start running away as well when things go bad though I can’t run as good as them. Don’t worry it’s a good thing.
P.S I still have to hear your thoughts about the Discipline trait line. It seems you’re avoiding the topic of how it is a “package” trait line for 20 points.
I’m just pointing out that if you feel warrior is op it might be because of the defense tree and not the discipline one.
The discipline traits were in this state even when warriors weren’t considered OP by everyone and nobody complained about it.I personally don’t favor the discipline trait line – I don’t really consider 20 points in that to be a " package".
Yes, I stand corrected. What I meant was the Defense Tree Line. Thanks for the heads up, gonna edit them and sorry for the misunderstanding. Turns out I should be the one reading my own posts.
That’s how i thought it was – it made very little sense and got me both angry and confused to see you going on about something that’s not really the issue.
The defense tree is strong – I’ll give you that – but without it a feel warriors are just not a viable class in sPVP or WvW.
Try the following – go into sPVP and try to make the best build you can without investing into the defense tree.
Protip : you can’t.
That’s why they made healing signet the way it is now – they tried to promote builds that weren’t going to invest that much into that defense tree – to give non-defense oriented warriors a chance to stay in the game and deal out some damage.
Currently a warrior that doesn’t spec in that trait line is just a free kill.
And that says a lot about a class that people are calling " OP " and " best class ".
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
I think the real issue is that currently Warriors are currently rewarded far more than other professions for not specializing. For example, if a Warrior had to run Cleric’s gear to have high sustain, I wouldn’t think anything of it. But they don’t. They just equip Healing Signet and boom, they have high sustain.
I wouldn’t mind if they had to spec heavily into defense to be impossible to burst down, but they really don’t. Almost every weapon set has significant damage mitigation capabilities built in (Axe/Axe is the only one I can think of that doesn’t) and on top of that, they have numerous utilities and even a heal option where they simply do not take damage.
About the only things Warriors actually have to spec into is damage, but since that is the only thing they need to spec for, there’s no reason to not do it.
Biggest thing I would do would be to heavily nerf the base values of the Healing Signet passive and Adrenal Health, but also drastically boost the Healing Power scaling (say, up to 20% from the current 5% on the signet). At bare minimum, this forces the Warrior to actually spec for heavy sustain if they want it. Addressing the other roles that should be specced for is more complex, but sustain, at least, has an easy thing to point to and say “this needs to change”.
Most weapon sets for most classes have ways to avoid damage.
What other heal in the game requires heavy investment in healing power before it’s worth slotting? You can’t start a precedent like this unless you’re prepared to follow through with it for every class.
If the only thing Warriors need to spec into is damage, why do no Warriors spec into damage? The meta specs right now are 0/0/30/30/10 (or something close like 0/0/25/30/15) or 0/0/30/10/30. Neither of these are investing in damage. It’s all utility.
Has anyone who has formed an opinion that the class is overpowered actually played the class so they can actually offer an informed and unbiased opinion on the class? Every post in this thread is just people looking to eviscerate the class instead of actually balance it. The class is overpowered, but the ideas people come up with leave me thinking no one has actually played it…
It’s funny but you’re right – in a sense most people in these threads are only here to nail warriors to a cross and are just spilling their rage onto the forum.
Nerf warrior – i don’t care how – just nerf them into the ground.
The class isn’t overpowered in my opinion – but the fact that the people calling it that and saying warriors have everything is rather sad. They haven’t played the class at all and probably don’t even know that if you go 0 in the defense trait line you’re going to be a free kill.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
I think the real issue is that currently Warriors are currently rewarded far more than other professions for not specializing. For example, if a Warrior had to run Cleric’s gear to have high sustain, I wouldn’t think anything of it. But they don’t. They just equip Healing Signet and boom, they have high sustain.
I wouldn’t mind if they had to spec heavily into defense to be impossible to burst down, but they really don’t. Almost every weapon set has significant damage mitigation capabilities built in (Axe/Axe is the only one I can think of that doesn’t) and on top of that, they have numerous utilities and even a heal option where they simply do not take damage.
About the only things Warriors actually have to spec into is damage, but since that is the only thing they need to spec for, there’s no reason to not do it.
Biggest thing I would do would be to heavily nerf the base values of the Healing Signet passive and Adrenal Health, but also drastically boost the Healing Power scaling (say, up to 20% from the current 5% on the signet). At bare minimum, this forces the Warrior to actually spec for heavy sustain if they want it. Addressing the other roles that should be specced for is more complex, but sustain, at least, has an easy thing to point to and say “this needs to change”.
Most weapon sets for most classes have ways to avoid damage.
What other heal in the game requires heavy investment in healing power before it’s worth slotting? You can’t start a precedent like this unless you’re prepared to follow through with it for every class.
If the only thing Warriors need to spec into is damage, why do no Warriors spec into damage? The meta specs right now are 0/0/30/30/10 (or something close like 0/0/25/30/15) or 0/0/30/10/30. Neither of these are investing in damage. It’s all utility.
Has anyone who has formed an opinion that the class is overpowered actually played the class so they can actually offer an informed and unbiased opinion on the class? Every post in this thread is just people looking to eviscerate the class instead of actually balance it. The class is overpowered, but the ideas people come up with leave me thinking no one has actually played it…
I had yesterday 4 games and in 3 of 4 games we had 6+ warrior at start. Someone someone changed warrior for guardian or thief. Best example was 4 warrior + ele vs 4 warrior + me (engi). So someone plays the class.
I think the real issue is that currently Warriors are currently rewarded far more than other professions for not specializing. For example, if a Warrior had to run Cleric’s gear to have high sustain, I wouldn’t think anything of it. But they don’t. They just equip Healing Signet and boom, they have high sustain.
I wouldn’t mind if they had to spec heavily into defense to be impossible to burst down, but they really don’t. Almost every weapon set has significant damage mitigation capabilities built in (Axe/Axe is the only one I can think of that doesn’t) and on top of that, they have numerous utilities and even a heal option where they simply do not take damage.
About the only things Warriors actually have to spec into is damage, but since that is the only thing they need to spec for, there’s no reason to not do it.
Biggest thing I would do would be to heavily nerf the base values of the Healing Signet passive and Adrenal Health, but also drastically boost the Healing Power scaling (say, up to 20% from the current 5% on the signet). At bare minimum, this forces the Warrior to actually spec for heavy sustain if they want it. Addressing the other roles that should be specced for is more complex, but sustain, at least, has an easy thing to point to and say “this needs to change”.
Most weapon sets for most classes have ways to avoid damage.
What other heal in the game requires heavy investment in healing power before it’s worth slotting? You can’t start a precedent like this unless you’re prepared to follow through with it for every class.
If the only thing Warriors need to spec into is damage, why do no Warriors spec into damage? The meta specs right now are 0/0/30/30/10 (or something close like 0/0/25/30/15) or 0/0/30/10/30. Neither of these are investing in damage. It’s all utility.
Has anyone who has formed an opinion that the class is overpowered actually played the class so they can actually offer an informed and unbiased opinion on the class? Every post in this thread is just people looking to eviscerate the class instead of actually balance it. The class is overpowered, but the ideas people come up with leave me thinking no one has actually played it…
see I do play a warrior, 30/0/20/020, GS/sword shield. When I say that Warrior is to good at to many things this is what I mean. Good survivabilty(not a bunker) good damage, good condition cleanse, almost completely immune to immobilize. Its not that this build is the best at anyone thing its that a build like this is good at almost everything. The best part is if I do come across something that may beat me i don’t need to stick around nd find out.
It was 2 vs 20 but its ok we got’em both!
Sorry i just had to laugh at the people saying there are better bunkers than warriors. It’s simply not true. I have a bunker guardian and warrior, and even without the protection and aegis that the guardian has, the warrior outperforms the guardian by miles. Its not even close. Warrior has a ridiculous amount of sustain without speccing for it. And if you DO actually spec for it you absolutely cannot die unless you have a whole zerg beating on you. Your damage will be pretty insane too as a condition bunker warrior. You can out dps damage specs of other classes while also being tankier than the tankiest specs of other classes. Yeah, warrior is balanced LOL!
Most weapon sets for most classes have ways to avoid damage.
I will give you this, but most of said professions lack anywhere near as much in the utilities as well. Thieves are the only ones that can really compare to it, but they can’t take the hits anyway.
What other heal in the game requires heavy investment in healing power before it’s worth slotting? You can’t start a precedent like this unless you’re prepared to follow through with it for every class.
For one, it would still be worth slotting, it just wouldn’t be as good if you didn’t invest in healing power. Even a 33% nerf in the base values still packs strong health regeneration, especially in combination with a Warrior’s other defenses.
Two, many healing skills are neglected because the player chose not to spec healing power. Pretty much any of the heal-over-time skills have high scaling with healing power (Well of Blood has a whopping 540% total for the caster). Others are neglected because they don’t perform some critical role. Warriors are extremely lucky in this regard as none of their healing skills are actually weak (not even Defiant Stance; it’s highly situational, but not weak). The majority run Healing Signet, though, because they really don’t need the condition cleanse on Mending (Cleansing Ire, Dogged March, Melandru/Soldier runes, etc.) and because the passive heal is strong enough with their active defenses that they simply don’t need the burst heal of Healing Surge.
If the only thing Warriors need to spec into is damage, why do no Warriors spec into damage? The meta specs right now are 0/0/30/30/10 (or something close like 0/0/25/30/15) or 0/0/30/10/30. Neither of these are investing in damage. It’s all utility.
Because Speccing into Damage involves far more than just trait choices. Only the 20 in Defense is actually required to drastically mitigate or remove entirely the weaknesses the profession has, so their other 50 trait points and all gear can go wherever they like.
Has anyone who has formed an opinion that the class is overpowered actually played the class so they can actually offer an informed and unbiased opinion on the class? Every post in this thread is just people looking to eviscerate the class instead of actually balance it. The class is overpowered, but the ideas people come up with leave me thinking no one has actually played it…
I play the class. Not often, as it’s an alt, but I do play my Warrior.
I personally think that warrior hate is misplaced as the profession is well made, not over powered. It should be the goal of all professions to have good choices and fluidity in terms of weapon, heal, utility, elite, traits, and skill mechanics so that people can play them all how they want. Stop calling for warrior nerfs…. be constructive and advocate for the same well designed profession for what you like to play.
This certainly is a reasonable point of view. Having a well designed profession is good. However, it is game breaking if the other classes do not have the same convenience.
Regardless of why and how, it is quite obvious that Warriors are dominant in basically every game mode. You could argue forever but the sheer number of Warriors ingame defies everyone disagreeing that Warriors overshadow the other professions whatever the reason(s) may be. It is not because of player skills. Let’s not fool ourselves.
Now, you got a valid position when saying that Warriors don’t necessarily have to be brought down. Other classes could be buffed instead. This is very true and would make many classes very happy. The Warriors probably not so much. You got to keep in mind: Wether you are nerfed or others are buffed, your relative power will always decrease. So it is more a question of which way you would prefer to go. But it is quite certain that something should change to establish a better class balance.
I personally don’t like nerfing but there are two main reasons I’d rather see Warriors being toned down a bit instead of overbuffing other classes. First – from an economical perspective – bringing up the other classes to a level the Warrior is on will require a huge amount of work and time. It will take ages to reach a balanced class environment. Second – which comes down to personal taste – while I do see Warriors having some weaknesses, I feel that they are not meaningful enough. If you brought up other classes to this level, all classes would lack weaknesses. This will result in a very shallow and boring gameplay because there won’t be any counterplay in PvP and WvW. GW2 is already weak when it comes to counterplay because there is no Tank-Healer-DD trifecta. But if you brought the classes even closer, getting rid of even more weaknesses, the game will become extremly dull. I personally would not enjoy it.
Another thing I should mention is that I have no issues at all with Warriors being able to be good at anything they like. Given the manifesto of the game, that is what every class should be. What I do have the issue with is how easy it is to make them good at everything. It is quite possible to make a class good at anything without making them good at everything.
Now, that said, there are some discrepencies that I just can’t see changing. Condition guardians will always suck, for example. I’d love to see this change, but currently none of the other damaging conditions fit them thematically.
But there’s no proof to support the ‘warriors are dominating everything’ argument.
We know Warriors are below Ele’s, Mesmers, and Thieves in PvE DPS.
We know Engineers, Thieves, Guardians, and Necromancers have similar standing in sPvP.
We know Warriors are about even with Guardians, Necromancers, and Engineers in WvW.
We know Mesmers, Rangers, and Thieves are better at roaming.
What are Warriors dominating?
Just put their “escapes” on a 30 second cooldown and 40 seconds if they don’t hit a target.
Oh wait…we only reserve nerfs like that for classes that have the lowest HP and armor..because otherwise…it would be power creep!!
..you’ve never fought a bunker ranger ever, it is painfully obvious. Or you are a troll, pick one or the other…
I mean if I have to choose between those two clearly unbiased options I would have to say I’m a troll. Playing sense release I’ve fought bunker rangers (and won) back during their reign of terror when they too were considered too strong. Also, I have one myself. As I have one of every class.
I mean if you added a third option such as; “Player who is just pointing out the obscene imbalance warriors bring to the game” then it would be that option.
But troll works too. It’s always better to try and demean the people who’s opinion do not match up with yours is it not?
Genesis Theory [GT] – Henge of Denravi
But there’s no proof to support the ‘warriors are dominating everything’ argument.
We know Warriors are below Ele’s, Mesmers, and Thieves in PvE DPS.
We know Engineers, Thieves, Guardians, and Necromancers have similar standing in sPvP.
We know Warriors are about even with Guardians, Necromancers, and Engineers in WvW.
We know Mesmers, Rangers, and Thieves are better at roaming.
What are Warriors dominating?
Seriously? The pure number of Warriors in every game mode in comparison to other classes is reason enough for questioning the current class and game balance. I’m surprised how some people conveniently overlook this issue.
While I doubt that some of your statements hold true, nobody said that the Warrior is best at everything. He does not have to be best at everything to dominate. You might want to try seeing the bigger picture instead of isolated situations. Argumenting your way would mean that Mesmers are perfectly fine because they are best at being a Portal bot.
Sure, then can you please quote me where I said Warrior’s sprint is OP because I’m 100% sure what I said was it was usually paired with Warrior’s Sprint (or any other trait) in addition to fast hands. Now who’s assuming? Stop putting words into my mouth and start reading.
And no, I don’t die to warriors a lot anymore since I’ve learned from them that I need to start running away as well when things go bad though I can’t run as good as them. Don’t worry it’s a good thing.
P.S I still have to hear your thoughts about the Discipline trait line. It seems you’re avoiding the topic of how it is a “package” trait line for 20 points.
I’m just pointing out that if you feel warrior is op it might be because of the defense tree and not the discipline one.
The discipline traits were in this state even when warriors weren’t considered OP by everyone and nobody complained about it.I personally don’t favor the discipline trait line – I don’t really consider 20 points in that to be a " package".
Yes, I stand corrected. What I meant was the Defense Tree Line. Thanks for the heads up, gonna edit them and sorry for the misunderstanding. Turns out I should be the one reading my own posts.
That’s how i thought it was – it made very little sense and got me both angry and confused to see you going on about something that’s not really the issue.
The defense tree is strong – I’ll give you that – but without it a feel warriors are just not a viable class in sPVP or WvW.
Try the following – go into sPVP and try to make the best build you can without investing into the defense tree.
Protip : you can’t.
That’s why they made healing signet the way it is now – they tried to promote builds that weren’t going to invest that much into that defense tree – to give non-defense oriented warriors a chance to stay in the game and deal out some damage.
Currently a warrior that doesn’t spec in that trait line is just a free kill.
And that says a lot about a class that people are calling " OP " and " best class ".
Yes, I was wondering why you kept pushing the issue with Warrior’s Sprint when I was focusing on Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire. Turns out I was calling the “Defense” trait as “Discipline” instead.
And yes, Warriors need the Defense Line but they’re getting too much for just 20 points. What I think that can fix it is change Adrenal Health from a Minor trait to a Major trait. They should put it at either Adept or Master trait so Warriors will carefully choose between Adrenal Health, Dogged March, and Cleansing Ire if they only plan to invest 20 points.
The same goes for Fast Hands. It’s like a necessity for warriors to be really versatile but I believe Fast Hands is too strong to be just a Minor trait. My suggestion is to make it an Adept Trait so Warriors who don’t plan on investing that much in Discipline trait can get it for less and those who plans on investing more will now have to Choose it and not get it free.
(edited by Kyon.9735)
Sorry i just had to laugh at the people saying there are better bunkers than warriors. It’s simply not true. I have a bunker guardian and warrior, and even without the protection and aegis that the guardian has, the warrior outperforms the guardian by miles. Its not even close. Warrior has a ridiculous amount of sustain without speccing for it. And if you DO actually spec for it you absolutely cannot die unless you have a whole zerg beating on you. Your damage will be pretty insane too as a condition bunker warrior. You can out dps damage specs of other classes while also being tankier than the tankiest specs of other classes. Yeah, warrior is balanced LOL!
You never played sPvP seriously, right?
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
Sure, then can you please quote me where I said Warrior’s sprint is OP because I’m 100% sure what I said was it was usually paired with Warrior’s Sprint (or any other trait) in addition to fast hands. Now who’s assuming? Stop putting words into my mouth and start reading.
And no, I don’t die to warriors a lot anymore since I’ve learned from them that I need to start running away as well when things go bad though I can’t run as good as them. Don’t worry it’s a good thing.
P.S I still have to hear your thoughts about the Discipline trait line. It seems you’re avoiding the topic of how it is a “package” trait line for 20 points.
I’m just pointing out that if you feel warrior is op it might be because of the defense tree and not the discipline one.
The discipline traits were in this state even when warriors weren’t considered OP by everyone and nobody complained about it.I personally don’t favor the discipline trait line – I don’t really consider 20 points in that to be a " package".
Yes, I stand corrected. What I meant was the Defense Tree Line. Thanks for the heads up, gonna edit them and sorry for the misunderstanding. Turns out I should be the one reading my own posts.
That’s how i thought it was – it made very little sense and got me both angry and confused to see you going on about something that’s not really the issue.
The defense tree is strong – I’ll give you that – but without it a feel warriors are just not a viable class in sPVP or WvW.
Try the following – go into sPVP and try to make the best build you can without investing into the defense tree.
Protip : you can’t.
That’s why they made healing signet the way it is now – they tried to promote builds that weren’t going to invest that much into that defense tree – to give non-defense oriented warriors a chance to stay in the game and deal out some damage.
Currently a warrior that doesn’t spec in that trait line is just a free kill.
And that says a lot about a class that people are calling " OP " and " best class ".Yes, I was wondering why you kept pushing the issue with Warrior’s Sprint when I was focusing on Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire. Turns out I was calling the “Defense” trait as “Discipline” instead.
And yes, Warriors need the Defense Line but they’re getting too much for just 20 points. What I think that can fix it is change Adrenal Health from a Minor trait to a Major trait. They should put it at either Adept or Master trait so Warriors will carefully choose between Adrenal Health, Dogged March, and Cleansing Ire if they only plan to invest 20 points.
The same goes for Fast Hands. It’s like a necessity for warriors to be really versatile but I believe Fast Hands is too strong to be just a Minor trait. My suggestion is to make it an Adept Trait so Warriors who don’t plan on investing that much in Discipline trait can get it for less and those who plans on investing more will now have to Choose it and not get it free.
I don’t really agree with your fast hands idea.
I see what you’re trying to do when you say move adrenal health but I feel people are only looking at one side of the coin.
Example : defense tree useless trait – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thick_Skin
How about we fix some of these as well?
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Sure, then can you please quote me where I said Warrior’s sprint is OP because I’m 100% sure what I said was it was usually paired with Warrior’s Sprint (or any other trait) in addition to fast hands. Now who’s assuming? Stop putting words into my mouth and start reading.
And no, I don’t die to warriors a lot anymore since I’ve learned from them that I need to start running away as well when things go bad though I can’t run as good as them. Don’t worry it’s a good thing.
P.S I still have to hear your thoughts about the Discipline trait line. It seems you’re avoiding the topic of how it is a “package” trait line for 20 points.
I’m just pointing out that if you feel warrior is op it might be because of the defense tree and not the discipline one.
The discipline traits were in this state even when warriors weren’t considered OP by everyone and nobody complained about it.I personally don’t favor the discipline trait line – I don’t really consider 20 points in that to be a " package".
Yes, I stand corrected. What I meant was the Defense Tree Line. Thanks for the heads up, gonna edit them and sorry for the misunderstanding. Turns out I should be the one reading my own posts.
That’s how i thought it was – it made very little sense and got me both angry and confused to see you going on about something that’s not really the issue.
The defense tree is strong – I’ll give you that – but without it a feel warriors are just not a viable class in sPVP or WvW.
Try the following – go into sPVP and try to make the best build you can without investing into the defense tree.
Protip : you can’t.
That’s why they made healing signet the way it is now – they tried to promote builds that weren’t going to invest that much into that defense tree – to give non-defense oriented warriors a chance to stay in the game and deal out some damage.
Currently a warrior that doesn’t spec in that trait line is just a free kill.
And that says a lot about a class that people are calling " OP " and " best class ".Yes, I was wondering why you kept pushing the issue with Warrior’s Sprint when I was focusing on Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire. Turns out I was calling the “Defense” trait as “Discipline” instead.
And yes, Warriors need the Defense Line but they’re getting too much for just 20 points. What I think that can fix it is change Adrenal Health from a Minor trait to a Major trait. They should put it at either Adept or Master trait so Warriors will carefully choose between Adrenal Health, Dogged March, and Cleansing Ire if they only plan to invest 20 points.
The same goes for Fast Hands. It’s like a necessity for warriors to be really versatile but I believe Fast Hands is too strong to be just a Minor trait. My suggestion is to make it an Adept Trait so Warriors who don’t plan on investing that much in Discipline trait can get it for less and those who plans on investing more will now have to Choose it and not get it free.
I don’t really agree with your fast hands idea.
I see what you’re trying to do when you say move adrenal health but I feel people are only looking at one side of the coin.Example : defense tree useless trait – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thick_Skin
How about we fix some of these as well?
Care to elaborate why you don’t agree with Fast Hands changes? Warriors have been saying that it should be an Adept Minor trait (they only want to spend 5 trait points for it) but in reality it is too strong to be a Minor trait. So instead of spending 15 points for it, you get to have it for 10. I know, people don’t like to spend for something that used to be a “Freebie”.
Everybody knows every single class can link broken and more useless traits so let’s keep the conversation at Adrenal Health, Dogged March, and Cleansing Ire and how they’re currently too strong just for 20 points. One broken trait does not make it a reason to make another trait stronger than what it has to be.
I think the real issue is that currently Warriors are currently rewarded far more than other professions for not specializing. For example, if a Warrior had to run Cleric’s gear to have high sustain, I wouldn’t think anything of it. But they don’t. They just equip Healing Signet and boom, they have high sustain.
I wouldn’t mind if they had to spec heavily into defense to be impossible to burst down, but they really don’t. Almost every weapon set has significant damage mitigation capabilities built in (Axe/Axe is the only one I can think of that doesn’t) and on top of that, they have numerous utilities and even a heal option where they simply do not take damage.
About the only things Warriors actually have to spec into is damage, but since that is the only thing they need to spec for, there’s no reason to not do it.
Biggest thing I would do would be to heavily nerf the base values of the Healing Signet passive and Adrenal Health, but also drastically boost the Healing Power scaling (say, up to 20% from the current 5% on the signet). At bare minimum, this forces the Warrior to actually spec for heavy sustain if they want it. Addressing the other roles that should be specced for is more complex, but sustain, at least, has an easy thing to point to and say “this needs to change”.
Most weapon sets for most classes have ways to avoid damage.
What other heal in the game requires heavy investment in healing power before it’s worth slotting? You can’t start a precedent like this unless you’re prepared to follow through with it for every class.
If the only thing Warriors need to spec into is damage, why do no Warriors spec into damage? The meta specs right now are 0/0/30/30/10 (or something close like 0/0/25/30/15) or 0/0/30/10/30. Neither of these are investing in damage. It’s all utility.
Has anyone who has formed an opinion that the class is overpowered actually played the class so they can actually offer an informed and unbiased opinion on the class? Every post in this thread is just people looking to eviscerate the class instead of actually balance it. The class is overpowered, but the ideas people come up with leave me thinking no one has actually played it…
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armored_Attack
gives with a zerker amu ca. 120-130 power. so speccing 25-30 points in defense gives nearly the same power then putting 20 traits into strength + dmg modifier for hammer + more defense + condi cleanse + regen on soft cc without a cooldown..
if u look other classes all traits related to gain regeneration under circumstances have a cooldown.
to balance the build cleansing ire needs to move into a different traitline. or i would suggest just removed.. i have no problems as warrior player to have a weakness against condis.
I think the real issue is that currently Warriors are currently rewarded far more than other professions for not specializing. For example, if a Warrior had to run Cleric’s gear to have high sustain, I wouldn’t think anything of it. But they don’t. They just equip Healing Signet and boom, they have high sustain.
I wouldn’t mind if they had to spec heavily into defense to be impossible to burst down, but they really don’t. Almost every weapon set has significant damage mitigation capabilities built in (Axe/Axe is the only one I can think of that doesn’t) and on top of that, they have numerous utilities and even a heal option where they simply do not take damage.
About the only things Warriors actually have to spec into is damage, but since that is the only thing they need to spec for, there’s no reason to not do it.
Biggest thing I would do would be to heavily nerf the base values of the Healing Signet passive and Adrenal Health, but also drastically boost the Healing Power scaling (say, up to 20% from the current 5% on the signet). At bare minimum, this forces the Warrior to actually spec for heavy sustain if they want it. Addressing the other roles that should be specced for is more complex, but sustain, at least, has an easy thing to point to and say “this needs to change”.
Most weapon sets for most classes have ways to avoid damage.
What other heal in the game requires heavy investment in healing power before it’s worth slotting? You can’t start a precedent like this unless you’re prepared to follow through with it for every class.
If the only thing Warriors need to spec into is damage, why do no Warriors spec into damage? The meta specs right now are 0/0/30/30/10 (or something close like 0/0/25/30/15) or 0/0/30/10/30. Neither of these are investing in damage. It’s all utility.
Has anyone who has formed an opinion that the class is overpowered actually played the class so they can actually offer an informed and unbiased opinion on the class? Every post in this thread is just people looking to eviscerate the class instead of actually balance it. The class is overpowered, but the ideas people come up with leave me thinking no one has actually played it…
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armored_Attack
gives with a zerker amu ca. 120-130 power. so speccing 25-30 points in defense gives nearly the same power then putting 20 traits into strength + dmg modifier for hammer + more defense + condi cleanse + regen on soft cc without a cooldown..if u look other classes all traits related to gain regeneration under circumstances have a cooldown.
to balance the build cleansing ire needs to move into a different traitline. or i would suggest just removed.. i have no problems as warrior player to have a weakness against condis.
sorry, but i played without ire handfull of matches just for fun ( was using shouts + runes that remove condi on use) + traided warhorn offhand. You have to literally be forced into shouts with 1 set of runes and warhorn and that still is not enough. your idea is horrible
I guess if it’s not one warrior being the weakness to a warrior… than I guess…
TWO Warriors
is the true weakness to a warrior.
I think the real issue is that currently Warriors are currently rewarded far more than other professions for not specializing. For example, if a Warrior had to run Cleric’s gear to have high sustain, I wouldn’t think anything of it. But they don’t. They just equip Healing Signet and boom, they have high sustain.
I wouldn’t mind if they had to spec heavily into defense to be impossible to burst down, but they really don’t. Almost every weapon set has significant damage mitigation capabilities built in (Axe/Axe is the only one I can think of that doesn’t) and on top of that, they have numerous utilities and even a heal option where they simply do not take damage.
About the only things Warriors actually have to spec into is damage, but since that is the only thing they need to spec for, there’s no reason to not do it.
Biggest thing I would do would be to heavily nerf the base values of the Healing Signet passive and Adrenal Health, but also drastically boost the Healing Power scaling (say, up to 20% from the current 5% on the signet). At bare minimum, this forces the Warrior to actually spec for heavy sustain if they want it. Addressing the other roles that should be specced for is more complex, but sustain, at least, has an easy thing to point to and say “this needs to change”.
Most weapon sets for most classes have ways to avoid damage.
What other heal in the game requires heavy investment in healing power before it’s worth slotting? You can’t start a precedent like this unless you’re prepared to follow through with it for every class.
If the only thing Warriors need to spec into is damage, why do no Warriors spec into damage? The meta specs right now are 0/0/30/30/10 (or something close like 0/0/25/30/15) or 0/0/30/10/30. Neither of these are investing in damage. It’s all utility.
Has anyone who has formed an opinion that the class is overpowered actually played the class so they can actually offer an informed and unbiased opinion on the class? Every post in this thread is just people looking to eviscerate the class instead of actually balance it. The class is overpowered, but the ideas people come up with leave me thinking no one has actually played it…
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armored_Attack
gives with a zerker amu ca. 120-130 power. so speccing 25-30 points in defense gives nearly the same power then putting 20 traits into strength + dmg modifier for hammer + more defense + condi cleanse + regen on soft cc without a cooldown..if u look other classes all traits related to gain regeneration under circumstances have a cooldown.
to balance the build cleansing ire needs to move into a different traitline. or i would suggest just removed.. i have no problems as warrior player to have a weakness against condis.
I somewhat agree with you that condis should probably be the counter to the Warrior class, but I’m not sure I agree with your approach by nerfing cleansing ire.
I think just changing berserker stance (and all condi immunities like it) would be enough to make condis more than powerful enough against the class. What if Berserker Stance didn’t make you immune to the application of conditions (are you also immune to movement impairing skills? I don’t know), but instead just reduced their damage to 0? This way if you don’t get rid of them by the time it drops, you’re going to be hit hard by a full stack of condis on you.
You could then lesson the bunker aspect of the class by instead moving Adrenal Health to the strength tree. It rewards stacking adrenaline where as cleansing ire wants you to drop it. Adrenal Health would compliment berserker’s power pretty good.
@introp
and i play without cleansing ire, healsignet and only with zerkerstance and healing surge and have no problems with conditions. funny right?
seems like u have no idea when to engage and when to disengage. player like u are the real problem why warrior gone out of control. demand something that they dont needed, just cause u have no plan when u should fight and when not. just as a hint http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Purity
@Atherakhia.4086
i think zerkerstance is more needed. its the key skill to fight against /p thiefs. it gives u a timeframe without being worried about blind on keyskills.
i think cleansing ire is wrong by default. its a free adrenalin source and on the same time a mainreason to spend it. something like sigill of purity on maybe 5 sec cooldown in strenght or arms would be a better solution. not complete shutdown of conditions and had only helped zerkerwars that spec offensive and stick to a target. or maybe if we consider power > conditions > bunker. a better sigill of purity was actualy all that was needed. shorter cooldown and overhaul to not triggering with no condi had solved a lot of problems without being op and that stuff whats floating around atm.
if u think futher or back u will realize the reason for this powercreep was the king of “safe” overextending, the thief. destroying defensive positioning on necros, what was the reason why necros got more conditions. before it was manageble. a single ele could provide enough group cleanse to help. but pure supportbuilds are garbage and thats why they either gone dmg (negated by thief) or bunker (negated by nerfs). the thief and the powercreep of necro was leading to powercreep of warriors.
it simple is a fact that a thief can better engage and disengage then every other glascanon. teleports are the main reason and stealth used defensive.
@introp
and i play without cleansing ire, healsignet and only with zerkerstance and healing surge and have no problems with conditions. funny right?seems like u have no idea when to engage and when to disengage. player like u are the real problem why warrior gone out of control. demand something that they dont needed, just cause u have no plan when u should fight and when not. just as a hint http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Purity
I play without pants and using fists only, my HS heals for 10k/s. i dont believe anything u stated. Maybe you play in wvw? Any necro, any, will eat your with condis if you think u can kill them in 8s, you are so wrong. 2 dodges takes 3s out of to to begin with. And god help you with that condi cleanse you bring in todays meta. So imagine however you want, but a thief wont let your disengage, nor does ele,other warrior, you name it.
Learn to read. I dont demand anything, i take game as it is. I do fun build, run hambow in 1/20 of my games, because i like to do different build every day. Any crybaby can come to forums and spout crap like using no condi cleanse as war or doing 20k evis crit. doesnt mean its truth
your hinted rune. lol. it has 10s cd and you dont control its usage. Enemy stacks 1 bleed on you – you accidently cleanse it. Now after that follows up rest of 11 bleed stacks. just no
….. A passive 3 condition cleanse (though it hurts our mechanic which compares to cleansing ire) OR 50% damage reduction when under 25% health on top of our high protection up-time (ex: since I run carrion that is about 5k health for me and I’ve seen backstabs hit for under 1k (just slightly higher on crit). This is why I think the warrior’s defense tree is not overpowered and I don’t get why there is an argument over why warriors only putting 20 trait points into the line is a bad thing.
i marked the important point. so regardless how u spec, u will have 1 real weakness on your build. if u see my previous post, u will see that defense delievers nearly the same power if spend 25 points like spec into strength. so defense is +attack, +dmg modifiers, +defense, +regen, +condicleanse! its a lot more than ws can deliever. yes i know there is +10% if above 90%, but that only benefits powerrangers and how long do u think powerrangers stay above 90% if a warrior with stability up engage them or a thief teleports to them? another problem are bow burst and fighting on node and impale. but thats another story.
the possible builds have no REAL weakness and a lot of strong points. the gap of possible mistakes the player can make in a fight is huge. its not only the points spend in defense. its the sum of additional parts that deliever a to strong packet. gw2 cant balance with conditional circumstances, so there will always be a situation where trait x or skill y is weak alone but too strong with additional other traits or skills. or trait x is strong and op with other additional traits. but none the less there is a possible solution on some cases throught the engine.
as example what happens when u have http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace or http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenaline_Pump or http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Energy or http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Building_Momentum + vigor and what happens if u have http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Vigor or http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Scepter or http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zephyr%27s_Focus or http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Implant + vigor. special focus should be on feline grace, vigorous scepter and natural vigor.
…
I play without pants and using fists only, my HS heals for 10k/s. i dont believe anything u stated. Maybe you play in wvw? Any necro, any, will eat your with condis if you think u can kill them in 8s, you are so wrong. 2 dodges takes 3s out of to to begin with. And god help you with that condi cleanse you bring in todays meta. So imagine however you want, but a thief wont let your disengage, nor does ele,other warrior, you name it.
….
well i dont force u to believe anything. but the faster the fight is over the less condis can be applied. how does cleansing ire helps against thiefs, ele or non condition warriors? and to state what i said before the KEY is to know WHAT and WHERE to fight
and yes. sigill of purity isnt perfect. but a fixed sigill had been a healtier solution to the game. and no, even its not perfect its still usable if no other condiscleanse is in the build.
edit:
@introp
as long i have understand its not a 1vs1.. so yeah in my opinion i dont need to have no weakspots as long i understand how to use teammembers. and i suppose u reread the complete thread or my posts. the point is i know its about weakness and i know condis WAS the weakspot. but with cleansing ire its not anymore. and im OK with having a weakspot… clear enough for u?
(edited by hooma.9642)
^ why does every skill be meant to use against every class? You take cleansing ire trait to mitigae condi damage. You can dodge out of big phys dmg hits, cant do that with condi spam on you. If lurking in los of people waiting for prey to show up and kill with with your build (zerk i suppose) ( you can go with semi defensive build using mentioned ire with rifle build for that reason keeping hammer for peel, but w/e) somehow works on bad people – gz. Any semi skilled player will melt you down. And sorry, ive yet seen a warrior kill me faster than 20s, because i can play around its weaknesess. ( i like to fish behind lines also, to find people that are keeping distances)
You can play without any traits or utility skills, doesnt mean it viable build for any reason
thread is about warrior weaknesses. condis are main weakness, thats why 98% of warrior pick cleansing ire to mitigate it. If you yet claim that condis is not a weakness to a warrior, you must be inspecting enemy weapons and making big list every game which player to avoid ( if you play in spvp)
(edited by Introp.8465)
Its not only, that the warrior has weakspots (condition damage and kiting). Which can both be fixed easily by investing 20 traitpoints in defense tree.
What other class can do this with 20 traitpoints?
Warriors core mechanic is broken, with adrenaline, they can only win. They can only get adrenaline, there is no way to lose it. Low cooldowns, high health, high armor and mobility skills on nearly every weapon-set (+ utility skills).
Lets look at other classes:
- nekromancers have their deathshroud, for this, they have low movespeed, low protection and only soft CC
- Ranger share their damage with their pet, if the pet dies, they will lose damage
- Thiefs have stealth, as tradeoff, they have low health
- Guardians have a high healing capability and condi cleans, but as tradeoff, low base health
- …
Whats warriors tradeoff for heaving these high stats? invest 20 points? not having the best damage (very situational)?
(edited by whyme.3281)
^ why does every skill be meant to use against every class? You take cleansing ire trait to mitigae condi damage. You can dodge out of big phys dmg hits, cant do that with condi spam on you.
Well thats wrong. You can also dodge conditions, you will prevent the new applies ones.
You probably wont notice it., but it prevents one or more new conditions that would be applied to you.
You probably can’t dodge damage from runes and sigils, beause their CD wont trigger, but thats an other story
thread is about warrior weaknesses. condis are main weakness, thats why 98% of warrior pick cleansing ire to mitigate it. If you yet claim that condis is not a weakness to a warrior, you must be inspecting enemy weapons and making big list every game which player to avoid ( if you play in spvp)
You can’t count conditions as a weakspot of the warrior.
They have berserker stance, cleansing ire and dogged march.
With that logic, you could say, that warriors don’t have any melee damage, because you could play them with bow/rifle, or the other way arround …
Those 98% are using cleansing ire, because they don’t have any weakspot then.
A weakspot is something you cant prevent (See necros lack of mobility, thiefs low health, guards bad ranged attacks, …) Those are weakspots in the game mechanic, that are implemented, so they can be used against this classes. The warrior was designed to have no/bad condition resistance. But unfortunatly he got those three skills and has one of the strongest condition resistance in game now.
Yes, I was wondering why you kept pushing the issue with Warrior’s Sprint when I was focusing on Dogged March, Adrenal Health, and Cleansing Ire. Turns out I was calling the “Defense” trait as “Discipline” instead.
And yes, Warriors need the Defense Line but they’re getting too much for just 20 points. What I think that can fix it is change Adrenal Health from a Minor trait to a Major trait. They should put it at either Adept or Master trait so Warriors will carefully choose between Adrenal Health, Dogged March, and Cleansing Ire if they only plan to invest 20 points.
The same goes for Fast Hands. It’s like a necessity for warriors to be really versatile but I believe Fast Hands is too strong to be just a Minor trait. My suggestion is to make it an Adept Trait so Warriors who don’t plan on investing that much in Discipline trait can get it for less and those who plans on investing more will now have to Choose it and not get it free.
I don’t really agree with your fast hands idea.
I see what you’re trying to do when you say move adrenal health but I feel people are only looking at one side of the coin.
Example : defense tree useless trait – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thick_Skin
How about we fix some of these as well?[/quote]
Care to elaborate why you don’t agree with Fast Hands changes? Warriors have been saying that it should be an Adept Minor trait (they only want to spend 5 trait points for it) but in reality it is too strong to be a Minor trait. So instead of spending 15 points for it, you get to have it for 10. I know, people don’t like to spend for something that used to be a “Freebie”.
Everybody knows every single class can link broken and more useless traits so let’s keep the conversation at Adrenal Health, Dogged March, and Cleansing Ire and how they’re currently too strong just for 20 points. One broken trait does not make it a reason to make another trait stronger than what it has to be.[/quote]
The issue with making it 10 points for fast hands is that you’re basically removing the balancing factor.
Having to go 15 in discipline means you can’t get another trait choice somewhere else.
It’s not free – it is forcing you to make a choice. By making it a 10 point trait you’re basically giving the 5 points for free.
If a warrior invests more than 15 in the discipline line it’s pretty much clear he’s going to probably go 30 so he’ll get it anyway. The idea is to keep the investment balanced – and i think it works well as it is.
Also – regarding Thick Skin – I know a lot of classes have a lot of broken traits – I’m not saying they don’t.
I’m just saying is that if you feel that we should look at the defense tree – by all means let’s look at ALL of it – not just the parts that you feel are OP.
Yes- it is a strong tree – but if you change it at the moment warrior will be sent back to the bottom of the barrel.
With condis being the meta ( and the meta hasn’t shifted) without that particular tree a warrior is useless.
Until the meta shifts ( and I think it will given the new changes that are starting with the newly announced feature patch) you can’t really change those much without wrecking the class.
Other classes are so adept at spamming soft cc that it’ll become nearly impossible to get close – one of the reasons the traits were added in the first place.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Warrior’s condition management was buffed in an attempt by Anet to make the meta shift from condi-heavy to something else.
That’s not what happened – what happened is people jumped on playing warriors instead of countering the newly emerging threat. Either that or went to the forums and started crying about how OP warriors now are instead of finding a counter and moving from there.
Here’s what I think – Cleansing Ire is not as bad as people make it out to be – you actually have to LAND your F1 in order to clear the condies – and a good player won’t allow you to.
The problem are the bads that will and that will cry that you killed them.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Warrior’s condition management was buffed in an attempt by Anet to make the meta shift from condi-heavy to something else.
That’s not what happened – what happened is people jumped on playing warriors instead of countering the newly emerging threat. Either that or went to the forums and started crying about how OP warriors now are instead of finding a counter and moving from there.Here’s what I think – Cleansing Ire is not as bad as people make it out to be – you actually have to LAND your F1 in order to clear the condies – and a good player won’t allow you to.
The problem are the bads that will and that will cry that you killed them.
another troll or just unexperienced? how comes that u think u can add something to this discussion?
just as reminder: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combustive_Shot
Warrior’s condition management was buffed in an attempt by Anet to make the meta shift from condi-heavy to something else.
That’s not what happened – what happened is people jumped on playing warriors instead of countering the newly emerging threat. Either that or went to the forums and started crying about how OP warriors now are instead of finding a counter and moving from there.Here’s what I think – Cleansing Ire is not as bad as people make it out to be – you actually have to LAND your F1 in order to clear the condies – and a good player won’t allow you to.
The problem are the bads that will and that will cry that you killed them.
another troll or just unexperienced? how comes that u think u can add something to this discussion?
just as reminder: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combustive_Shot
yes, well longbow burst and sword flurry are the only burst skills that make use of cleansing ire reliably. And sword burst is 130 range.
And even then, combustive shot got nerfed last patch.
All other burst skills can be avoided the same way as any melee attack. So, warrior needs to hit meanwhile guardians lose 2 conditions every 10 seconds and ranger 3 as long pet is alive (always) NO MATTER WHAT.
So yeah, cleansing ire is fine.
And if you miss your burst? Congratulations you cant cleanse conditions for 7-10 seconds while being eaten alive. If you miss both your bursts well then….Sounds like a weakness and a good tradeoff to me.
(edited by DuranArgith.1354)
Hooma, Harper, DuranArgith…. thank you for putting out some very clear and constructive thoughts on the defense tree (helps little ole’ me who doesn’t have a warrior and can’t grasp the concept as fast).
So…… has anyone suggested that Cleansing Ire be switched with Spiked Armor to become a grandmaster major trait? Wouldn’t this solve the supposed problem of an easy 20 into the trait tree and make the warrior actually build for 30 before chosing either the condition cleanse OR the low hp EP proc (kinda like ranger’s WS line)?
Please don’t shred my idea …. I just can’t judge very well what this would do for the profession so could you more experienced warriors tell me?
Well, a warrior in my opinion needs 35 trait points that are an absolute must.
15 in fast hands and 20 for cleansing ire.
Your idea would mean that warriors would be starving for trait points if they needed 45 points out of 70 in order to even be viable.
Hooma, Harper, DuranArgith…. thank you for putting out some very clear and constructive thoughts on the defense tree (helps little ole’ me who doesn’t have a warrior and can’t grasp the concept as fast).
So…… has anyone suggested that Cleansing Ire be switched with Spiked Armor to become a grandmaster major trait? Wouldn’t this solve the supposed problem of an easy 20 into the trait tree and make the warrior actually build for 30 before chosing either the condition cleanse OR the low hp EP proc (kinda like ranger’s WS line)?
Please don’t shred my idea …. I just can’t judge very well what this would do for the profession so could you more experienced warriors tell me?
Well, a warrior in my opinion needs 35 trait points that are an absolute must.
15 in fast hands and 20 for cleansing ire.Your idea would mean that warriors would be starving for trait points if they needed 45 points out of 70 in order to even be viable.
Sounds kinda boring and build restricting to “require” 35 trait points already. My suggestion might mean even more of a restriction OR more build diversity and I think that other professions already have the issue of “requiring” to go 30 into at least one trait tree.
Anyways, what do you suggest as an alternative?
I cant really suggest any alternative. Most condition battling traits for classes are on the master level. Cleansing Ire being a master level is consistent.
The only other trait against conditions warriors have is restorative strength
(10 points in strength, removes weakness, immobilize, chilled and crippled when using a healing skill)
Pretty kitten worthless. dogged march , runes and lemongrass make it completely obsolete.
Other than that and cleansing ire, warriors have no other trait that deals with conditions, at all.
(edited by DuranArgith.1354)
The only other trait against conditions warriors have is restorative strength
(10 points in strength, removes weakness, immobilize, chilled and crippled when using a healing skill)Pretty kitten worthless. dogged march , runes and lemongrass make it completely obsolete.
Other than that and cleansing ire, warriors have no other trait that deals with conditions, at all.
33% less cc time + regen is not worthless. It makes war even harder to cc on top of those other two (it’s also stronger than other class’s similar traits and is an adept vs their master). 65%→98% is very noticeable and worth while in such a cc heavy environment.
Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
Not in in the case of Ranger’s WS trait tree. Btw, are there any other condition cleanse options in the other warrior trait lines that could use some work to make cleansing ire less "needed" ?
I don’t want warriors to become the free kill class so if cleansing ire is needed at 20 trait points then perhaps it could be reworked a bit where it always clears (2) conditions regardless of adrenaline level.
Simply put, Warriors without cleansing ire = unviable, at least when pvp is concerned. Even in WvW if you don’t have it, you could make it work, you will just be terrible vs conditions. Warriors do have many options for condition removal but most of the options are pretty terrible. At the same time, people why sacrifice so much of your build to get other sources of condition removal when you can just get cleansing Ire.
Mending = Have to forgo healing signet which means you sacrifice loads of sustain
Signet of Stamina = 45 second cooldown condition wipe
Shake it Off/Shrug it Off = 25 second cooldown for one condition clear? Wtf? and the latter you need 20 into tactics
Lyssa Runes = 60 second condi wipe, but, leaves you no option for other runesets?
Shout/Soldier Runes = 30 in tactics and a rune set just for some condi removal?
Warhorn/Conversion Trait = Warhorn has no offensive punch, plus 20 into tactics which has pretty worthless minor traits. You are pretty much asking to lose many fights with Warhorn unless you roll with a zerg.
The other problem with Cleansing Ire is that it is tied highly to the viability of other weapon sets. Hammer/Longbow have an easy time taking advantage of Cleansing Ire while weapons like axe, mace, rifle, greatsword etc have a harder time and are lackluster compared to the former.
(edited by killahmayne.9518)
Cleansing Ire is fine where it is. Empathic Bond should be a 20pt trait. Moving it to 30 restricts build diversity because conditions are such a huge problem for most classes in this game. Cleansing Ire is about on par with Empathic Bond and Guardian passive condi removal. If you want to tone down the condi cleanse focus on berserker stance.