Guild Wars 2

I would like to know what Arenanet’s and even the communities opinion on AI centered builds is. It concerns me that we have these mindless but effective builds in the meta and with the changes to spirit weapons, more may come.

Hmmm. Well even though I know im throwing myself into shark infested waters covered in blood ill take the risk on behalf of those like me.

Since I started my first playing my first MMO (Eq1) I have played classes that allowed you to have pets. I played a magician in that game. The reason for this isn’t the ease of play. (infact in many games and in many parts of THIS game the build because almost impossible to run effectively “Dat 4v4 on mid doe”) but instead because of how it feels to play. I and those like me that focus on these builds generally fall into the “Point Control” style of play. Thats not an alude to the current conquest matchup but more to the feeling of dominating a small specified location.

The idea of the playstyle is to think of the fight on a larger scale than most players do or can. Were able to do this precisely BECAUSE of the nature of our pets. A skilled “AI USER” who has a good amount of experience using it will know exactly how to bait an enemy into doing certain things. Making certain mistakes. For me. THIS is the fun of these builds (in my opinion) and I believe a large part of why they have gained so much hate.

Our builds dont have a clear (THIS IS WHAT KILLED YOU) sign.

If you die to a dagger mainhand thief you can be pretty sure it was due to a heartseeker or a back stab you took one to many of during the fight. Those are just the iconic manuevers of the weapon setup and fighting them you have a general idea of where you messed up. AI builds dont always give that clue to unobservant players which can be frustrating. (I’ve often died to certain builds and thought “WHAT THE kitten WAS THAT”)

Yes. We are very powerful in 1v1 situations. But then we were designed to be because were so kitten WEAK in non 1v1 situations where we can be focused down or completely outstripped by those around us.

And as for our builds being in the meta I am fairly certain only Turret Engineer could be considered to be in comparison to the others. Spirit ranger can be overwhelmed. And MMancer can be rolled through. And SW Guard while extremely strong in a specific niche (Against ranged projectiles ty spirit shield) doesn’t bring anything really new to the table. There are other builds that can do the same thing it can. The only thing with SW guard is that the effects of a primary build are spread out among multiple “pieces” so as our damage and effects arnt as centralized and thus less predictable.

TLDR; I understand you dont like us much BlazinFyre. But in the end this is the playstyle many of us play simply because we enjoy it. Both myself and ALOT of other people enjoy a more long term view of a fight and the interesting combinations and mechanics you can pull off when you have more than one body. So I ask that you give the builds a try (or another try) actually figure out where there useful and where there not (as they are niche builds) and see if there really as "mindless in every situation in the world) as alot of people accuse us of.

P.S. If it looks like we beat you while we were playing mindlessly. It just means you were very easy for us to predict and isolate. And at that point youl be ripped apart by our swarm

Shadelang.3012:

P.S. If it looks like we beat you while we were playing mindlessly. It just means you were very easy for us to predict and isolate. And at that point youl be ripped apart by our swarm

^This.

It’s all about control. People like to complain about AI builds because they know their opponent has little/to no control over their AI and the computer will do what the computer has calculated as being the ‘best’ for that moment in time. So neither player has any sort of real control over the situation with an AI running around.

A mesmer can throw around a few clones or phantoms and the only way you can escape from them is to kill them. Which takes resources away from killing the mesmer, to which they can just keep churning out more. You lose the control over the situation the longer you are in battle, so you get frustrated with the situation and blame the mesmer for doing what a mesmer does, create AI. A mesmer cannot get away from producing it’s phantasms, it’s the nature of the profession.

A ranger can send their pet off to distract you, to actively damage you while sitting back and happily trying to take you out with ranged attacks. Their pets have CC that can severely hamper your playstyle and wreck your day if you let them. You again, lose control of the situation and it makes you upset.

AI builds are innate to certain professions, there is no getting around it. They are far from mindless, you just can’t see as easily what goes on with an AI build as you can with a non one. It’s just easier on the ego when you can say that a player actively smashed your face into the ground than it is to say that the player’s AI did.

the correct answer is 42

Of course o.o 42 MINIONS WITH WHICH TO LAY WASTE TO er……sry…>.>

Mobile Banner and Roller Turret, can’t wait.

its dumbed down low-risk high-reward gameplay so no surprise anet supports it.
AI builds are problematic and will be so long as they remain as is. they have a huge inherent advantage in spvp, engineer being by far the most obnoxious about it because they get this inherent area of control advantage like no other but they can also face off the one thing that’s supposed to counter that (kiting).

then there’s mm necros, pu mesmers, spirit rangers, etc.

the point is that AI isn’t (and never has been) balanced well at all. the numerous non-stat advantages it offers seemingly aren’t factored into anet’s balancing much if at all, leading to every build that successfully manages to get the most out of AI ending up being legendarily broken.

overpowered or balanced it’s a lame playstyle regardless, the least you could do is not grossly reward people for it.

Liked or not it got to be viable enough to be at least considered(at least in one game mode).

Siva Mira.3546:

Mobile Banner and Roller Turret, can’t wait.

and knowing how much the developers love warriors, I bet they would get that untraited too!

Everything Shadelang said and more. I love playing “AI builds” because it falls directly into my playstyle.

I’ve always favored minion heavy professions. In GW1 my main character was a ritualist/necromancer. That is the epitome of an AI build. I had necromancer minions on the front lines and a few damaging spirits by me to support them with ranged barrages. Was I unskilled because I relied on the AI to do the damage? I don’t think so, considering it was still up to me to find the best strategic locations to take control of and to make quick decisions considering what spirits to lay down and when it was okay to sacrifice some minions if it meant letting my teammates get an advantage.

It’s a different kind of skilled play. Sure, it’s more forgiving on those who don’t have super twitchy reflexes and quick reaction time, but it also requires a level of tactical intelligence that is just as prominent as any other build. In some ways more so.

We don’t need to remove AI heavy builds from the game. Quite the opposite. We need to increase the player’s control over their AI and improve the AI’s responsiveness to player commands to allow AI builds to focus more on the player’s tactical ability and less on chance and automated movement. I’d like to see necromancers able to choose what targets specific minions focus on and where their minions decide to set up shop and defend. I’d like to see rangers be able to tell their pets exactly when to use all their skills and not rely entirely on when the AI decides to use them. Ranger spirits could also be more responsive. Honestly they were kind of a let down to me when I realize they were just destructible boon factories.

As the player gets more control we can start toning the AI themselves to ensure a more balanced playstyle, but we certainly shouldn’t remove it entirely.

BlazinFyre.2410:

I would like to know what Arenanet’s and even the communities opinion on AI centered builds is. It concerns me that we have these mindless but effective builds in the meta and with the changes to spirit weapons, more may come.

AI builds are not innately mindless, unless you are referring to the fact that my summoned creatures are mindlessly stupid, in which case sure.

True AI builds have a unique playstyle that revolves around tracking multiple entities in addition to your own and the enemies, and using various support mechanics to utilize them at maximum efficiency. You end up playing a very interesting and fun hybrid of control, support, and DPS all in one, its like having a small team that you manage all on your own. For example an MM built properly has the Necromancer as a tanky support/control role, bone minions/shadow fiend as DPS, bone fiend and flesh golem as control/DPS, and flesh wurm as DPS/utility. The MM supports the minions, using healing, control, and condition application to keep the enemies locked down for the DPS minions to wail on them, and to keep them alive. The minions themselves provide DPS, control, and utility for the MM to keep them alive. Its a symbiotic relationship that provides something nothing else truly can, and when done properly it involves a lot of active play and far more micro-management than anything else (look at GW1 MM and tell me that it was “passive” to play a build that was literally impossible to play at 100% without being a computer).

Note that this doesn’t include Spirits, which have absolutely no AI (they are simply AoE buffs that you can kill), Banners (which are untargetable summons), and the various AI mechanics (thieves, elementalists, and some various summon skills) that have no full-build associated with them. These are either not AI as they are summoned AoE buffs, or they are not AI builds, meaning the summon themselves don’t remotely carry the build, they are just there to add something, but there is no real active interactions between the summoner and the summoned.

Another thing people seem to forget is that true AI builds have never once been top tier viable. In anything. PvE/WvW/sPvP have never seen a true AI build used successfully in the “top tiers”, usually because ANet has given us a crippling AI system paired with active skills that are almost always unnecessarily clunky. Is it sometimes annoying to play against a turret engineer (who represents the worst of AI builds, as there isn’t any meaningful play there) or MM? Sure. Its also just as annoying to play against a variety of other builds that don’t struggle with clunky AI, badly implemented active abilities, and that are often just as if not more reliant on “thoughtless” actions as we are accused of.

TL;DR
1) AI builds are not innately passive. In my MM build I am playing the role of a support bunker while also controlling the most idiotic DPS teammates you’ve ever seen.
2) My build is just as if not more active than a lot of the other builds people run.
3) Its fun. It could be better designed and I’m all for it, but stop trying to get rid of it just because you don’t understand it.

^ this o.o I literally couldn’t have put it better myself and I tried.

BlazinFyre.2410:

I would like to know what Arenanet’s and even the communities opinion on AI centered builds is. It concerns me that we have these mindless but effective builds in the meta and with the changes to spirit weapons, more may come.

sounds like someone can’t beat mesmers.

I like how people are trying to explain AI builds as if they require skills to manage and play LOL. No seriously, i have played turret engineer, spirit ranger etc.. I haven’t tried minion mancer but there is literally no skill involved in these builds, its all passive, all you need to do is focus on staying alive which isn’t an issue since you can go the tankiest amulet with all defensive traits allowing you screw up a ton.

Lifestealer.4910:

I like how people are trying to explain AI builds as if they require skills to manage and play LOL. No seriously, i have played turret engineer, spirit ranger etc.. I haven’t tried minion mancer but there is literally no skill involved in these builds, its all passive, all you need to do is focus on staying alive which isn’t an issue since you can go the tankiest amulet with all defensive traits allowing you screw up a ton.

Amusingly you say this while admitting that you haven’t played the only actual AI focused build. Spirit ranger isn’t an AI build. The spirits do absolutely nothing but stand there and provide buffs. I’ve never played an engineer so I can’t comment on that.

Like Ehecatl said, you picked one build that has nothing to do with AI (might as well start calling banner warriors AI builds at that point) and another that is a prime example of when AI is badly designed.

For example, if you “just stay alive” on MM, you will max your damage out at around 2k in realistic situations. That’s it. You’ll die eventually because you can’t sustain through much if you haven’t been using your abilities properly, and your minions will deal a bit of feeble wet-noodle-slaps to the target before dying.

Lifestealer.4910:

there is literally no skill involved in these builds, its all passive, all you need to do is focus on staying alive which isn’t an issue since you can go the tankiest amulet with all defensive traits allowing you screw up a ton.

Perhaps at the skill level you play at. But many of us do not play at that low of a skill level. If “you” played them mindlessly, that was your decision, to play it so. That does not make it any less mindless then some of the lower level meta builds designed around the lowest effort requirement.

A lot of people are missing the point.

In a PvP environment its supposed to be competitive. AI isn’t competitive, its basically PvE.
Furthermore we wouldn’t complain about AI if some of them weren’t so absurdly strong with no input. Most AI builds during specific metas (namely turret engi now) can win nearly any 1v1. Thats kittened and not competitive. Most Ai builds allow bunker amulets with full damage output.
Notice the trend? Everone complains about soldier/cele might stackers for the same reason. Far too tanky with too much damage output.

Being a bunker with high damage is bad enough being a bunker with AI killing people is just wrong, its not competitive.

Also don’t argue the “takes skill crap”. The difference between the skill gaps is huge.

and i am not really surprised really that looking through some of these AI lovers post that they are mostly turret engi players. You can tell which players failed to play the real engi build aka kits because of the skill required and instead they cling on to AI builds as crutch.

AI goes from terrible to “Meh I’ll take it” in pve,who saw actual AI in wvw and mesmer doesn’t count they have no choice so the least they could do is make them viable enough in pvp. At least one mode,just one,current pve and zerg are not AI friendly liked or not.

Not sure on how can you have total AI control in this game even ranger is not at that level.

Lifestealer.4910:

and i am not really surprised really that looking through some of these AI lovers post that they are mostly turret engi players. You can tell which players failed to play the real engi build aka kits because of the skill required and instead they cling on to AI builds as crutch.

My main is a staff elementalist. Your comment holds no weight on me whatsoever given I’m playing one of the highest skill floor professions in the game.

And you ignored the people telling you that turret engineers aren’t an example of a good AI build. They are effective, yes, but they don’t fill the same roll we’re talking about when we talk about playing an AI control build. We don’t want to drop the AI and let it auto attack until our enemies die, we want to be able to actively control our minions so we can use them to the highest level of our ability.

Ehecatl.9172:

Lifestealer.4910:

and i am not really surprised really that looking through some of these AI lovers post that they are mostly turret engi players. You can tell which players failed to play the real engi build aka kits because of the skill required and instead they cling on to AI builds as crutch.

My main is a staff elementalist. Your comment holds no weight on me whatsoever given I’m playing one of the highest skill floor professions in the game.

And you ignored the people telling you that turret engineers aren’t an example of a good AI build. They are effective, yes, but they don’t fill the same roll we’re talking about when we talk about playing an AI control build. We don’t want to drop the AI and let it auto attack until our enemies die, we want to be able to actively control our minions so we can use them to the highest level of our ability.

That isn’t the main thing being discussed though. The OP is talking about how the current AI implementation affects pvp. If you want to have AI be more player controlled which i will fully support, it will be another thread.

Lifestealer.4910:

That isn’t the main thing being discussed though. The OP is talking about how the current AI implementation affects pvp. If you want to have AI be more player controlled which i will fully support, it will be another thread.

Actually the OP is asking what the communities thoughts on AI builds are. He didn’t ask how AI is effecting PVP, only how the players and the Anet staff feel about the existence of AI builds. Others came here to explain their views on the builds and to talk about the more skillful implementations of the playstyle, and how they’d like to see the AI builds reflect that playstyle more accurately.

You’re the one who is basically calling everyone who voiced enjoyment for that playstyle bad players, which is a good way to completely derail the thread and turn it into an argument about what constitutes “Skillful play”.

Its amazing how willfully blind some of the people here are o.o. Some posts here amount to “I DONT LIKE IT SO GET RID OF IT”. No actual arguments. No logic. Just repeating the same thing over and over and expecting people to see things there way.

Well screw it. I’m going to keep using the builds I enjoy. I enjoy immobilizing you then slamming a golem down your throat. If you want to say thats cheap. Or that the 30+ seconds ive taken baiting you into making the stupid mistake that let me immobilize you in the first place were all because of luck or my pets doing everything for me. Feel free to. Itl just make watching your health degrade that much more enjoyable.

If you want to willfully ignore what people are saying. Take apart there well thought out posts and snip it to try and make yourself look good. Feel free to try. Theres enough people angry at there last death in the match to have your back. REJOICE. Ill take my minions over a rage quitter who cant even avoid a bone fiends slow moving immoblize any day.

Ehecatl.9172:

Lifestealer.4910:

That isn’t the main thing being discussed though. The OP is talking about how the current AI implementation affects pvp. If you want to have AI be more player controlled which i will fully support, it will be another thread.

Actually the OP is asking what the communities thoughts on AI builds are. He didn’t ask how AI is effecting PVP, only how the players and the Anet staff feel about the existence of AI builds. Others came here to explain their views on the builds and to talk about the more skillful implementations of the playstyle, and how they’d like to see the AI builds reflect that playstyle more accurately.

You’re the one who is basically calling everyone who voiced enjoyment for that playstyle bad players, which is a good way to completely derail the thread and turn it into an argument about what constitutes “Skillful play”.

The OP asked ANETS stance on the current implementations of AI builds and community voiced their stance. I for one dislike the AI builds that are in the game atm because of the passive nature of the AI which is perfectly in line with the topic of this thread. You are however proposing a change to AI builds which is completely different.

On the other hand I have to agree that id like a bit more Direct control over my minions as a necro. Although I can understand why we dont have it in the current implementation. If the AI was improved and some of the bugs fixed I’d feel alot more satisfied. However having a “Kill.Stay.Die” set of commands would go a long way to improving there implementation. If I knew someone was about to go down in a massive melee my pets were certain to not survive id like to be able to tell key ones to stay back till I call them. Or to tell them to go after someone on the side instead so as to relieve the pressure as I attempt a rez.

It’s the small things that could really open up alot of options for the builds.

Lifestealer.4910:

The OP asked ANETS stance on the current implementations of AI builds and community voiced their stance. I for one dislike the AI builds that are in the game atm because of the passive nature of the AI which is perfectly in line with the topic of this thread. You are however proposing a change to AI builds which is completely different.

You also said you’ve played turret engineer and spirit ranger, which others have mentioned as being some of the worst AI focused builds in terms of needing skill to play, which is what people are having an issue with.

A minion master necromancer needs to time their minion skills properly to really excel at the build, which requires timing and patience just like any other crowd control heavy build. Well, except hammer/mace&shield warriors who seem to just spam crowd control until you die, anyway. Generally if I do die to a minion master necromancer it’s because I ate his flesh golem’s charge right in the face, which is me making a mistake not him abusing his AI. It was his command, after all.

My main experience with AI builds is as a Beastmaster ranger. I’ve gone this route because I really dislike spirits. Mostly because they aren’t even AI minions. They’re literally just a different kind of banner. On top of that their active effects are almost useless due to the oddly small area of effect considering how long it takes to set a spirit up in a spot and how hard it is to bait your opponent to them. Just… A really bad pay-off. Spirits are only really good as group support.

My BM however has been a lot of fun. My old ranger main was a trapper and I almost completely ignored my pet, but since playing as a BM ranger I’ve had to learn to micromanage my pet to get off their F2 skills at precisely the right time and to really make use of the “Come to me” and “attack” buttons to make sure the pet stays alive WHILE I am fighting off people in melee with my greatsword. Once I made the pet the cornerstone of my build I had to start learning to split my attention between the two and learn to control the pet and myself simultaneously, and it’s actually greatly improved my ability to play my original trapper build as well.

I’ve had my BM build called “cheese” before though. Usually from people I’ve beaten who insist I’m just getting carried by my raven’s damage and don’t consider that I had been carefully switching my raven out for my sylvan hound periodically to make sure the raven doesn’t go down to the enemy’s re-targeted burst while at the same time performing dodges and blocks as needed to keep myself alive. Admittedly my pet does do a lot of damage while I can build pretty tanky to fulfill a bunker/support roll on my own, but that doesn’t mean I’m not still playing actively and often aggressively to make sure my opponent goes down fast and my pet doesn’t get crushed.

In other AI related news, elementalists are finally getting control over our elementals. I am extremely happy about this. We’ll finally have the same level of control over our AIs as necromancers enjoy.

Lifestealer.4910:

The fact that you think you have some of skill playing these AI builds really shows the type of player these builds attract. You can ask any top player and they would agree that while turret engi and MM necro arent viable in tourney plays, they are still brainless builds that a 12 year old can pick up and do

They don’t know how to play MM source: I’ve seen “top” necros like zombify play MM and its hilarious. Love the guy, but I very rarely even see an MM with a not-idiotic build, let alone see it played at anything close to well.

JinDaVikk.7291:

Furthermore we wouldn’t complain about AI if some of them weren’t so absurdly strong with no input. Most AI builds during specific metas (namely turret engi now) can win nearly any 1v1. Thats kittened and not competitive. Most Ai builds allow bunker amulets with full damage output.
Notice the trend? Everone complains about soldier/cele might stackers for the same reason. Far too tanky with too much damage output.

Being a bunker with high damage is bad enough being a bunker with AI killing people is just wrong, its not competitive.

Also don’t argue the “takes skill crap”. The difference between the skill gaps is huge.

1.5k DPS is the max the minions will do, assuming the person is standing still, the minion AI is perfect, and they never die. Unless you are saying a DPS build deals that much damage (I’ll solve the riddle, they deal more, even a soldier warrior will hit harder than that) then no. MM has an incredibly slow kill time unless you eat every single active they have, which still takes a 5+ seconds to do and can be easily avoided.

If you want to bring issues up with specific AI builds (like turrets, which are horribly designed) feel free. But don’t act like all AI builds are any more brainless than the vast majority of what is currently played.

Bhawb.7408:

Lifestealer.4910:

The fact that you think you have some of skill playing these AI builds really shows the type of player these builds attract. You can ask any top player and they would agree that while turret engi and MM necro arent viable in tourney plays, they are still brainless builds that a 12 year old can pick up and do

They don’t know how to play MM source: I’ve seen “top” necros like zombify play MM and its hilarious. Love the guy, but I very rarely even see an MM with a not-idiotic build, let alone see it played at anything close to well.

JinDaVikk.7291:

Furthermore we wouldn’t complain about AI if some of them weren’t so absurdly strong with no input. Most AI builds during specific metas (namely turret engi now) can win nearly any 1v1. Thats kittened and not competitive. Most Ai builds allow bunker amulets with full damage output.
Notice the trend? Everone complains about soldier/cele might stackers for the same reason. Far too tanky with too much damage output.

Being a bunker with high damage is bad enough being a bunker with AI killing people is just wrong, its not competitive.

Also don’t argue the “takes skill crap”. The difference between the skill gaps is huge.

1.5k DPS is the max the minions will do, assuming the person is standing still, the minion AI is perfect, and they never die. Unless you are saying a DPS build deals that much damage (I’ll solve the riddle, they deal more, even a soldier warrior will hit harder than that) then no. MM has an incredibly slow kill time unless you eat every single active they have, which still takes a 5+ seconds to do and can be easily avoided.

If you want to bring issues up with specific AI builds (like turrets, which are horribly designed) feel free. But don’t act like all AI builds are any more brainless than the vast majority of what is currently played.

Even though I hate AI focused builds myself (I think that pretty much all of them except MM and non-spirit Ranger have exactly zero potential for smart play, and while those two have the potential they currently fail horribly at using it. They should play like a strategy game thing, while currently all you have control over is activating a skill occasionally), I have to agree with the above post. I finally made a warrior about three days ago. It is level eight. I have no experience with any of the skills except sword and shield, and those only in PvE. I went into tPvP with a randomish longbow/axesword build with my guild, in berserker gear, and absolutely wrecked face. It was just stupidly easy. I would watch people blind and interrupt my important skills, and just not care, and still win fights easily.

So yeah, AI builds could be a lot smarter, but so could a number of other builds.

Great to see someone whos a little open minded. I can accept and understand your personal dislike of AI builds P Fun Daddy. I also appreciate the honesty in your experience with the builds and your experience in playing other builds its something rare in the forums.

I see what you meen about making AI builds smarter. The issue is for those of us that have actually become SKILLED with these builds giving us more direct control of the pets could potentially allow the micro management we have learned to push us into the tiers of “OP” which non of the current builds (with the exception of Turret engi) could ACCURETLY be described as OP except in EXTREMLY niche circumstances.

I daresay even if we were forced (or granted) to have the ability to directly control the pets while it would almost certainly get rid of some of the “joy riders” which are giving the rest of us a bad name. It would indirectly create even MORE QQ. A good minion mancer with the ability to actively direct his pats independently of his current position would be a NIGHTMARE when played to its maximum potential. And no matter how active you make the play. There will ALWAYS be whiny people that cry about how they only died to AI. You could make it so that we had to control each individual muscle (qwop x 6) and they will still kitten about it.

The only other alternative is what the majority of the crybaby hatebase is hoping. To nerf the builds into oblivion so that the entire playstyle dissapears entirely. Alienating an entire family of players that truly enjoy this style of control,isolation,and negation. I will be honest. That action if taken will remove me from this game. I dont mind a shave as long as I get that active control I dream of. But if it ever gets to the point where I could never in a million years once again laugh on the corpse of the hambow that stands in all of my poison fields and wonders why he dies. Then a large part of this games enjoyment will disappear for me.

Oh I would love it if they made them more active. Honestly all they need to do is fix the AI to work at 100%, make the skills more responsive, and then change things like Training of the Master to enhance the actives instead of just a flat damage bonus, and we’d have active play without requiring the MM to play an RTS (which would be way too good if you could actually micro them).

Right? I keep having this mental image of my blood fiend draining a Bunker guard (they just be walking blood tanks to me) My bone minions chasing a thief around. My flesh wurm attacking a ranger. My flesh GOLEM going after there ely. And my bone fiend sitting right next to me ready to immob the first person to get close….man…that would be GLORIOUS

I hate AI in PvP, just need to make sure everyone knows.

And I hate getting backstabbed being stunlocked/fearlocked and being knocked around like a pinball when two rifle engis get bored. There have even been times where I wished they cease existing. But once I actually thought about it I realized it just wasnt that bad >.< It could be worked around. Is it frustrating? Yah. But so is being killed by ANYTHING haha.

Dying to PvE while in PvP is the most frustrating thing I have ever experienced while gaming

Once again everything Shadelang said is true.

MM Necromancers aren’t overly annoying aside from screen clutter. When I meet one as my staff elementalist I mostly just grin as I imagine his soon to come despair at having seen all his minions burn to ashes around him.

I’ve out dueled turret engineers on my BM ranger a couple times. The turrets are annoying at most, but I’m tanky enough to shrug off their damage and even if the net turret immobilizes me my raven is still in the engineer’s face hitting him for 2K an auto attack. My elementalist… Just nuke the whole area. Good bye turrets.

But no matter what I play thieves are still frustrating to fight, even when I win. Hammer warriors and bomb engineers smacking me around is just plain aggravating. Terrormancer… That gives me flashbacks to World of Warcraft back when warlocks were severely overpowered and could kill you with fear and DoT spam before you got control of your character back. The horror…

There are a lot of builds that are very aggravating to fight, but that doesn’t mean they all have to disappear forever.

Ehecatl.9172:

Once again everything Shadelang said is true.

MM Necromancers aren’t overly annoying aside from screen clutter. When I meet one as my staff elementalist I mostly just grin as I imagine his soon to come despair at having seen all his minions burn to ashes around him.

I’ve out dueled turret engineers on my BM ranger a couple times. The turrets are annoying at most, but I’m tanky enough to shrug off their damage and even if the net turret immobilizes me my raven is still in the engineer’s face hitting him for 2K an auto attack. My elementalist… Just nuke the whole area. Good bye turrets.

But no matter what I play thieves are still frustrating to fight, even when I win. Hammer warriors and bomb engineers smacking me around is just plain aggravating. Terrormancer… That gives me flashbacks to World of Warcraft back when warlocks were severely overpowered and could kill you with fear and DoT spam before you got control of your character back. The horror…

There are a lot of builds that are very aggravating to fight, but that doesn’t mean they all have to disappear forever.

I don’t care what build I fight against, as long as it’s a player doing the fighting.

Builds with 3+ AI that apply so much pressure on their own that the AI build hard counters builds like Shatter or D/P is stupid. There’s no reason builds should have so much passive pressure that they hard counter other builds.

I hear that alot. However THAT in itself is a matter of perspective. It can be difficult to remember that the dangerous portions of hte build are all player driven (Bone minion burst for example) When you see the bone minions it can feel like they explode randomly when really its because the controller has lined you up and baited your defenses out to make you vulnerable. Bone minion explosions are my number one killing method. usualy in combination with a chill or immoblize to prevent you from leaving hte area for the following death nova impact.

Id have to reccomend playing a minion master in Team que. In much the same way playing a thief can lead you to learn there patterns and make them easier targets for you playing an MM necro can teach you the more common combinations.

For example. one of the most devestating attack rotations I have is actually a control rotation for the necro and the pets activating in quick succession. (Dagger Three. Dagger 5. Bone fiend active. (wait for proximity of bone minions) Deathshroud two then 3 to ensure it hits. Death shroud 5. Flesh golem charge. Bone Minion one. Staff three/4/5 Bone minion two.) If I can land that entire chain then anything squishy (zerker thief) that stands in it without evading/blocking the key attacks (the immobilizes and chills) will likely be dead. However it isnt simple as you can see theres a decent amount of skills I have to make sure connect in order to pull it off. Most times I have to due parts of that chain at a time. Or even restart or abandon it as necessary. Thats also in a 1v1 situation which point control playstyles are naturally more powerful. (The trick is to leave our area of influence and drag it out. this makes us vulnerable as well as limmiting our ability to damage you. However if you abandon control of the fight hten its hte same result as when you give up the initiative to anyone else in the game.

And to be fair. Point control builds of ALL types not just AI builds are not meant to be fun to fight against. The idea behind them is to choose a specific target (either a player or area) and deny effective action, Isolate the Target, Then slowly drain him. That isnt a fun way to die nor should it be. It can be annoying. Harrowing even. Some of my most skilled oponents that have beaten me have actually sent me whispers saying that fighting me tired them out. And in some cases they avoid me for the rest of the fight.

A point control playstyle leaves you drained. It requires fast actions and decision making. Area Awareness. And will likely drain your cooldowns. Its what we as players have decided on focusing on. If that reminds you of PvE. Thats less due to the fact that there are pets than that you are being forced to react differently than you would normally to a playstyle that kills you in a similar fashion to a group of elite mobs. If you die in a PvE fight its largely because you dodged something improperly and no longer had the cooldowns to recover.

A P.C. build will do the same to you. Wear you down till your ability to fight back is gone. Then eliminate you.

You can avoid all AI active procs and will still die to AI auto attacks as D/P or Shatter before you’ll take down a turret engi or Minion mancer necro.

There is no player skill to dying from that. It’s death by PvE.

And as for MMancer hard countering shatter mes. That ATLEAST I know isnt true. I have been COMPLETELY dominated by a well timed shatter burst. It has left me looking at my screen blankly for 10 seconds before saying….“Wut?”

I highly reccomend playing hte MMancer even more now if your having that issue. I think youl be able to find the kittens in our armor more effectively if you do.

If you dislike that idea then heres my best reccomendation for you. “Dont rush it” Cripple the minions. Bait out the consume conditions or kill the blood fiend. And then nuke the kittener. He wont have any way to recover from it. And he wont have any method of blocking your follow up attacks. The necro has to sit there and take it. Take advantage of that one glaring weakness.

Shockwave I hate to say it but it sounds like your running full glass setups with VERY little sustain. From that perspective. Necros in general should eat you. However as far as the AI goes. I HATE SAYING THIS…I REALLY DO. its the most annoying line to ever hear on a forum.

But it sounds like you need more experience in fighting them. From my perspective it sounds like you just havnt learned HOW to fight them. Your trying the same thing you use on everyone else and it isnt working. But our playstyle works to hamper the playstyles of our enemies. Its how we fight. Try changing things up. Switching your skill priorities. Going full ham into a MMancer is asking to be swarmed. If you do that to me I WILL use my dagger to immobilize you and I WILL farm you for life force before killing you. Also keep in mind were designed to be strong in 1v1 but were weak to things that can out sustain us while still putting out damage. We have very low recovery ability for our base health pools. It might be best to say (Hey can you send someone from mid to keep him busy while I stick my knife in his gut.) Odds are a tankier player can tie up all the minions leaving the average MMancer completely defenseless. A more skilled mmancer can adjust but between the two of you the pets should be pretty much dead by then anyway. Leaving him naked surrounded by strange prison inmates named “Butch”….

Shockwave.1230:

I don’t care what build I fight against, as long as it’s a player doing the fighting.

Builds with 3+ AI that apply so much pressure on their own that the AI build hard counters builds like Shatter or D/P is stupid. There’s no reason builds should have so much passive pressure that they hard counter other builds.

So you’re absolutely fine when a burst profession comes out of invisibility and hits you for more health than you have, completely circumventing the fight and claiming a win? Or perhaps a profession that constantly fades in and out of visibility or spams blinds so half your attacks don’t hit?

Personally, I get very frustrated when I fight anything that forces me to keep mashing the target button because my target gets dropped every few seconds. Even now that I’m fairly good at countering that playstyle it still gets on my nerves. But hey, different strokes right? If we start removing entire playstyles just because they annoy different people we won’t even have a game to play anymore.

AI builds at least can be hard countered pretty well when exposed to heavy AoE damage. The well designed AI builds also still need player guidance to be effective, and those of us using AI builds would very much like MORE control over it. It’s not you being killed by PVE, it’s you being killed by the mechanics of your opponent, just like if you had gotten off your shatter on someone or blinded someone until dead.

Yes Shatter can beat Mm if you play patiently and use your range advantage. Turret engi is only a win for Shatter if all turrets are colocated so a shatter burst can eliminate all turrets simultaneously, and crate isn’t available or dies during the burst, and you manage to interrupt the 1/2 second engi heal. Aka bad strategy putting all turrets together.

D/P on the other hand doesn’t have a range advantage, nor the insane AoE burst available to Mesmer.

From Ehecatl’s perspective let me say I also play a power ranger (que laughter) We all know how most power ranger builds fair against certain burstier proffesions (which will remain unnamed)

When im on my ranger the most frustrating feeling in the world. THE WORST. Is when I get dropped before being able to react. Be it several strikes to the back from stealth. Purple butterflies of death. Or an axe to the face. Its frustrating. Its degrading. It leaves you with a feeling of “There is absolutely nothing I could have done better in that situation without the ability to see the future” However it makes it that much more satisfying when I change something and get to drive the spike into there chest.

Even if you only have one hit point a wins a win right?

Certain things are going to be frustrating the fight. That is an innate nature of MMO PvP. From the lockdown mes of gw1. To the 3 minute long CC chains of old WoW. TO those gods be kitten ED shadowknights in EQ1 and 2.

Ehecatl.9172:

Shockwave.1230:

I don’t care what build I fight against, as long as it’s a player doing the fighting.

Builds with 3+ AI that apply so much pressure on their own that the AI build hard counters builds like Shatter or D/P is stupid. There’s no reason builds should have so much passive pressure that they hard counter other builds.

So you’re absolutely fine when a burst profession comes out of invisibility and hits you for more health than you have, completely circumventing the fight and claiming a win? Or perhaps a profession that constantly fades in and out of visibility or spams blinds so half your attacks don’t hit?

Personally, I get very frustrated when I fight anything that forces me to keep mashing the target button because my target gets dropped every few seconds. Even now that I’m fairly good at countering that playstyle it still gets on my nerves. But hey, different strokes right? If we start removing entire playstyles just because they annoy different people we won’t even have a game to play anymore.

AI builds at least can be hard countered pretty well when exposed to heavy AoE damage. The well designed AI builds also still need player guidance to be effective, and those of us using AI builds would very much like MORE control over it. It’s not you being killed by PVE, it’s you being killed by the mechanics of your opponent, just like if you had gotten off your shatter on someone or blinded someone until dead.

I have no issue with stealth burst. You can always see it coming and can avoid the burst.

Shockwave its true that MMancer can be a decent soft counter for D/P thief where the world really doesnt have that many counters besides stacking health and toughness. Our external control alllows us to react where most other builds cant. That kind of makes us your nemisis on the field. But then if your trying to 1v1 a MM necro on a point as a D/P thief your doing something wrong. There are much better ways to contribute to a fight. Thieves are NOTORIOUS for +1ning a fight. When I see an enemy thief on a match I assume I will NEVER have a one versus one. The only time I relax is when I see your symbol on the minimap at the other part of the field.

Remember that necros are well known to be slow. I cant shadowstep up to the clocktower then back down to the other side of the field. You can effectively kill multiple of my teammates quickly by turning an even fight to your favor. Then two of you can come over roflstomp on my body and then move off after decapping before my team can get there.

As I said before trying to find another way may be the best bet. This holds true for EVERY AI build not just my MM necro.

Shockwave from my perspective its hte control im dishing out you should be able to see coming. To ANY necro what im going to attempt is obvious and pre ordained unless I can think of something on the fly. You as a thief player can predict other thieves. I have played thief so I can also predict them to an extent (I am by no means an expert) however I can also predict another MMancer because I play one. So too can they predict me. If you want to see some of the WIERDEST fighting put two enemy MM necros or two Turret engis in a room together…The akwardness is palpable.

Hell one of my favorite fights of all time was when I was fighting another SW guard as a SW guard. One time during the fight we sent each of our spirit hammers to try to take otu the other spirit hammer at the same time. They did this wierd flippy thing in the air then nothing happened. We actualy stopped fighting for a second to go…uhh….Wut?

MM deals 1.5k max DPS from the minions if you are standing still and never kill the minions. I’m curious as to how that is too much pressure, since I’ll assume you’ll move while playing, when its not all that different to a variety of other tanky builds.

Shockwave.1230:

I have no issue with stealth burst. You can always see it coming and can avoid the burst.

I find the fact you claim you can always see an invisible attack coming hilarious.

No, you can’t. That’s the entire point. If you’re mid-transport or already engaged and don’t see the thief before he enters stealth, which if he’s a good thief at all you won’t because he’ll come at you from an angle you’re likely not looking at, you are going to be hit by an attack you did not know was coming.

Now if you do manage to see his attack coming, sure. You know what to anticipate. But to say that you can ALWAYS see an invisible opponent coming at you is just incorrect.

Know what you can always see coming though? A huge mob of deformed zombie monsters barreling down at you or sitting on a point. If you see an MM necromancer, or even a turret engineer, you immediately know exactly what is about to happen.

It really does seem like you don’t like heavy AI builds because they counter your playstyle. As a ranged nuker thieves are the hard-counter to my playstyle as well. Most builds do, and probably should, have something that gives them a hard time.