Guild Wars 2

Kiriakulos.1690:

If something is worse it doesn’t justify this being bad.

Prove it is bad? You are claiming your subjective opinion as if it were fact. Personally I feel it is very well balanced with a very few builds having one specific trait or skill combination that is a problem when combined.

The reason they are showing you something is worse, is because it could be subjectively believed that in comparison, most MMO are bad and that in comparison, this one is very good.

Sevans.4619:

This game is more well balanced than most people would like to admit. There are some problems, of course. No game is perfectly balanced, but Anet has done pretty well considering all the factors that need balancing.

The game is not in any way balanced. A balance in a complicated multiplayer game such as this with a lot of moving parts can not be updated every 6 months and at the same time be called balanced. Balance is a shifting thing or should be a shifting thing that allows the top players to iterate and show their ingenuity by creating new builds and new strong tactics because of their superior skill and knowledge

Any person regardless of skill level can dig up the current meta build for any given class, put a few hours into it in pvp and be virtually indistinguishable from an experienced player who has played the build for a long time. There is absolutely no iteration in the PvP scene after the first few weeks after a balance patch. The meta settles and all skill and innovation disappears

This is the main reason why gw2 PvP was such a big flop in the first place, there is very little room to show your skill over the other people when the objectively best strategy is found shortly after the game is changed to one direction or another

my only problem with gw2: they hold back patches, updates, contents after they finished it for months

Uuni.3561:

Since we get balance patches every 6 months or so and they include changes that take less than a month to come up with and create, I can’t help but to wonder what are they doing in the 5 months between the patches? Are they laid off or something?

A man can dream…

Uuni.3561:

I’m not trying to be snarky or disrespective or anything but the amount of changes we get in balance patches doesn’t warrant months and months of completely skewed balance especially in PvP. We haven’t even gotten new skills, mechanics or professions in the two years the game has been out to mix things up and possibly draw time from the balance team. We got new traits, majority of which are unviable or just too deep in the trait trees to ever be useful, generosity rune is blatantly overpowered and highly inaccessible in PvE/WvW, the meta stagnates in a few weeks after a balance patch because the game has so few moving parts the optimal builds are found extremely quickly. The game doesn’t have much depth or mechanics required so the gap between skill floor and skill ceiling is downright claustrophobic.

Two years from launch and conditions are still unviable in PvE
Healing power still has no use in PvE
Zerking is the optimal PvE build assuming you can reflect/dodge roll
Mob AI has never been returned to beta weekend quality
Condition spamming is cancer killing the ‘esports’ in this game
Meta builds are all about eliminating counterplay

It will never, ever get better. The game is horribly, irrecoverably imbalanced and will never improve.

I’d suggest you try Smite, a 3rd person MOBA. It’s not an MMO, but you’ll be pleasantly pleased with the balance.

If I were to guess I would ‘somewhat jokingly’ say they are more then likely seeing a psychologist or shrink, both alone and in group sessions, to be able to deal with all the kitten they have to deal with on this forum related to anything they do or do not do…

Having said that I do somewhat agree with the OP in regards to the number balancing, it shouldn’t be to much work to change the Warrior trait that gives 7% of power to vitality back to 5% now that the warrior has gotten more ways to deal with conditions f/e… or even start with 6% and see how that works out. In order to balance warrior zerk builds with a proper challenge/reward setting, actually this sort of shows that the list provided isn’t been used at all, as this trait should have been modified the moment Warriors got more access to condition clear… ‘how do changes effect the balance over all’.

I do not agree with the viewpoint of balance and meta that some propose though, balance means that profession/skills selection doesn’t really matter anymore, balance (in the true sense) has been achieved, and it now comes down to player skill and execution, to determine a winner. OR, but that only works for games (like f/e GW1) with a lot of choices and skills, where there are numerous right answers to the same questions and selections come with the consequence of not picking another solution. In which case there isn’t necessarily ‘balance’ as in ‘equilibrium’ but balance to a point where you can always find a way to adept and find another answer.

Seeing GW2 is NOT a game with an extensive list of answers, it can not be a game with a ‘rolling meta’, seeing playing an advanced version of Rock, Paper, Scissors has nothing to do with player skill & execution. It thus should be a game with a ‘Balance = Equilibrium’ mind set. Which also happens to be a mind set where pretty much all the builds (that make any bit of sense) are viable builds… Now b4 I get all the anti-socialists and anti-communists on my back, let me state that ‘Equilibrium =/= Equality’ for as far as the professions are concerned, on the other hand, to have a game where it is player skill and not ‘rock, paper, scissors’ that determines a winner, and the amount of skills are fairly limited, there has to be a large amount of similarity between the professions; still though, there should be more then enough room to create distinctly different solutions to the same ‘problems’.

f/e:
Amount of Armour: scaling
Amount of Health point: scaling
do direct damage: range at which, amount of which, speed of which, source, etc…
do conditions: kind of condition, how condition works (intensity, duration).
mitigate damage: by healing, by blocking, by repelling, by evasion, duration, recharge…
deal with conditions: which conditions, how often, etc.
Pro/Anti-Boons: which boons, how to applicate/remove, which (intensity, duration)
Mobility: ease of Access, range, recharge

Well you get the point, more then enough ways to differ/be distinct and still be ‘balanced’ where balance is some sort of Equilibrium. And reaching this is easiest by making frequent small (medium when difference is considered large) changes, seeing ‘you’ can always go back by a smaller bit the next time, if you over shot a little bit.

Uuni.3561:

Any person regardless of skill level can dig up the current meta build for any given class, put a few hours into it in pvp and be virtually indistinguishable from an experienced player who has played the build for a long time. There is absolutely no iteration in the PvP scene after the first few weeks after a balance patch. The meta settles and all skill and innovation disappears

Do you honestly believe this? Indistinguishable from an experienced player who’s played the build for a long time? Where’s your proof of this? I have never seen a guy pick up a build and beat the person who pioneered said playstyle with only ‘a few hours in pvp.’ Never.

Yeah, ‘meta’ (I wish people would stop using this term) builds are strong. They’re prevalent for a reason. Effectiveness. People are always actively seeking out the most efficient build or playstyle in any competitive game. Any. Competitive. Game. Efficiency is king. That does not make a game imbalanced. People are always going to embrace the most efficient build.

I actually prefer for developers to let dust settle before changes are made. It allows the community to come up with effective strategies for beating popular characters and builds and often times it’s because of this that strategies or characters/classes fall in and out of favor.

When Marvel vs Capcom 3 came out everybody whined about Sentinel, they thought he was too good because at a very base level he is good. He’s hearty, does big damage, and is simple to play. People flocked to him. Good players actively developed strategies to beat him, bad players whined about it. Capcom immediately answers the whiners with a gigantic nerf to the character; Shortly thereafter the strategies the good players developed started leaking. So now you have all these strategies versus a nerfed character which renders said character almost useless. That’s kittening awful balancing. Capcom screwed the pooch.

You have to let things simmer. Look at Street Fighter IV, look at Starcraft II, look at the Tekken games. Those games have long periods between big balancing changes for a reason. Sometimes it takes the next game in the series, but they aren’t MMO’s so that’s not as big of a deal.

Guild Wars 2 is not on that level of balance, I am not saying that. It won’t be because it’s an RPG with way too much customization. I am saying that ANet’s infrequent patch model is a better way of balancing than knee-jerk changes. So far they’ve made a fairly well balanced RPG. That’s kittening hard to do.

Would I like to see more changes? Yes, sure. That’s exciting. It’s always fun seeing classes get new things, but I understand that that’s just not how game balance should be handled.

The risk reward is not equal on all classes, thats the reason why we see warriors and guardians on every team.

Have you ever played against a kittenty warrior? I havent, because their are no really kittenty warriors. You can kitten up with every class and be completly useless exept warrior, even if you push random buttons you are at least doing something good for the teamfight.

Warriors, guardians and to some extend thieves reward you way to much for the risk you have to take to play them. Its ok if mmorpg’s have difficult and easy classes but the gap is way to big in GW2. Guards are so popular not only because they are so good at supporting it is because they are reliable, its hard to kitten up with a guardian. The risk/reward balance heads way to much in the reward direction. Same with thieves, the reason why we see almost only thieves as zerker roamers is because its less risky to use a thief. Their are some exceptions like D/D eles and might stacking engis BUT they work because of celestial gear and why do they work with that type of gear because it offers alot more defense than other gear with the same amount of damage output. So in the end its a risk/reward problem again.

TL/DR

Make warriors, guardians and thieves as risky to play as the other 5 classes.

coglin.1867:

Kiriakulos.1690:

If something is worse it doesn’t justify this being bad.

Prove it is bad? You are claiming your subjective opinion as if it were fact. Personally I feel it is very well balanced with a very few builds having one specific trait or skill combination that is a problem when combined.

The reason they are showing you something is worse, is because it could be subjectively believed that in comparison, most MMO are bad and that in comparison, this one is very good.

Prove it is good? Not just better than awful.

If enough people agree on something, it is probably right, especially since you can’t objectively define balance.

There have been numerous threads about how awful the balance iterations are, I can’t remember a single person posting it is actually fine.
Until now that is.

Mayama.1854:

The risk reward is not equal on all classes, thats the reason why we see warriors and guardians on every team.

There is a need for different risk:reward ratios in this game.

Firstly, you need to have something that is low risk with decent reward as an entry way for new players. Otherwise you’ll see PvP dwindle to just the same people because anyone new gets stomped by the pros instantly.

Secondly, some people crave to play high risk with high reward. You can’t just take that away “because balance”.

Thirdly, an equal risk:reward ratio has nothing to do with inter-class balance. After all, how do you decide who wins when you have a low risk:low reward spec, such as a tank, against a high risk:high reward build such as a glass cannon? Based on just that one parameter, you can’t do kitten.

80% of balance is cooldown changes.

Allow me to balance the game for you :

Thief
-Remove initiative but keep steal
-Put 20 second cooldown on steal
-Increase cooldown on thief sword movement skills from 3 to 6 seconds
-Increase cooldown on dagger stealth to 20 seconds

Guardian
-Decrease cooldown of Leap of Faith from 15 to 12 (without trait)
-Decrease cooldown of GS4 to 15 seconds
-Decrease cooldown of GS5 to 20 seconds
-Judge intervention to 30 sec base cooldown
-Contemplation of Purity to 40 sec base cooldown
-All spirit weapons to 40 sec base cooldown
-Save yourselves and Retreat to 40 sec base cooldown
-Hallowed Ground to 30 sec cooldown
-Sanctuary to 60 sec cooldown
-Bane signet to 30 sec cooldown
-Increase projectile speed on staff, scepter and trident

Ranger
-Increase damage of all axe skills by 20%
-Put 1/4 second of evade on the first and second hit of GS autoattack
-Improve pets health by 50%

Elementalist
-D/D Earth 5, give stability and protection when channeling earth 5
-D/D Air, reduce cooldown on Air 4 and 5
-D/D Water, reduce cooldown on water 5

Necro
-Increase radius area of wells by 200
-Staff, increase projectile speed of autoattack
-Increase damage of axe skills by 20%

Mesmer
-All clones have retaliation

Warrior
he is OK as is, but make less useful traits usable

Engineer
he is OK as is, but make less useful traits usable

Olba.5376:

Mayama.1854:

The risk reward is not equal on all classes, thats the reason why we see warriors and guardians on every team.

There is a need for different risk:reward ratios in this game.

Firstly, you need to have something that is low risk with decent reward as an entry way for new players. Otherwise you’ll see PvP dwindle to just the same people because anyone new gets stomped by the pros instantly.

Secondly, some people crave to play high risk with high reward. You can’t just take that away “because balance”.

Thirdly, an equal risk:reward ratio has nothing to do with inter-class balance. After all, how do you decide who wins when you have a low risk:low reward spec, such as a tank, against a high risk:high reward build such as a glass cannon? Based on just that one parameter, you can’t do kitten.

Did you read my post? The problem isnt mediocre risk/decent reward versus high risk/high reward its that some professions offer high reward/low risk compared to the other classes.

Mayama.1854:

Olba.5376:

Mayama.1854:

The risk reward is not equal on all classes, thats the reason why we see warriors and guardians on every team.

There is a need for different risk:reward ratios in this game.

Firstly, you need to have something that is low risk with decent reward as an entry way for new players. Otherwise you’ll see PvP dwindle to just the same people because anyone new gets stomped by the pros instantly.

Secondly, some people crave to play high risk with high reward. You can’t just take that away “because balance”.

Thirdly, an equal risk:reward ratio has nothing to do with inter-class balance. After all, how do you decide who wins when you have a low risk:low reward spec, such as a tank, against a high risk:high reward build such as a glass cannon? Based on just that one parameter, you can’t do kitten.

Did you read my post? The problem isnt mediocre risk/decent reward versus high risk/high reward its that some professions offer high reward/low risk compared to the other classes.

Did you read my post? I said that there needs to exist at least one such setup to allow easy entry for new players.

Rasalhague.8270:

80% of balance is cooldown changes.

Allow me to balance the game for you :

Thief
-Remove initiative but keep steal
-Put 20 second cooldown on steal
-Increase cooldown on thief sword movement skills from 3 to 6 seconds
-Increase cooldown on dagger stealth to 20 seconds

Guardian
-Decrease cooldown of Leap of Faith from 15 to 12 (without trait)
-Decrease cooldown of GS4 to 15 seconds
-Decrease cooldown of GS5 to 20 seconds
-Judge intervention to 30 sec base cooldown
-Contemplation of Purity to 40 sec base cooldown
-All spirit weapons to 40 sec base cooldown
-Save yourselves and Retreat to 40 sec base cooldown
-Hallowed Ground to 30 sec cooldown
-Sanctuary to 60 sec cooldown
-Bane signet to 30 sec cooldown
-Increase projectile speed on staff, scepter and trident

Ranger
-Increase damage of all axe skills by 20%
-Put 1/4 second of evade on the first and second hit of GS autoattack
-Improve pets health by 50%

Elementalist
-D/D Earth 5, give stability and protection when channeling earth 5
-D/D Air, reduce cooldown on Air 4 and 5
-D/D Water, reduce cooldown on water 5

Necro
-Increase radius area of wells by 200
-Staff, increase projectile speed of autoattack
-Increase damage of axe skills by 20%

Mesmer
-All clones have retaliation

Warrior
he is OK as is, but make less useful traits usable

Engineer
he is OK as is, but make less useful traits usable

What…? Perma evade on ranger GS AA’s…?
Mesmer clones having retal….?
This fixes…? Balance….?

Olba.5376:

Mayama.1854:

The risk reward is not equal on all classes, thats the reason why we see warriors and guardians on every team.

There is a need for different risk:reward ratios in this game.

Firstly, you need to have something that is low risk with decent reward as an entry way for new players. Otherwise you’ll see PvP dwindle to just the same people because anyone new gets stomped by the pros instantly.

Secondly, some people crave to play high risk with high reward. You can’t just take that away “because balance”.

Thirdly, an equal risk:reward ratio has nothing to do with inter-class balance. After all, how do you decide who wins when you have a low risk:low reward spec, such as a tank, against a high risk:high reward build such as a glass cannon? Based on just that one parameter, you can’t do kitten.

Newer players shouldn’t be highly rewarded though. Sure there should be safer specs which work well for newer or less skilled players, but they should not be highly rewarding and more influential then a large skill gap.
Currently high risk = practically no reward, practically no risk = decent reward for most specs. It has nothing to do with new or old players. It’s reflected across all players and it’s why we’re stuck in this stale meta.

Rasalhague.8270:

80% of balance is cooldown changes.

Allow me to balance the game for you :

Thief
delete from the game

Guardian
make DPS guardian even stronger

Ranger
make beastmaster builds OP with greatsword perma-evade

Elementalist
make D/D even stronger, because we all know hard hitting skills should be safe and on low cooldowns

Necro
don’t bother fixing the actual problems with necros

Mesmer
PU builds need more cheese

Warrior
he is OK as is, but make less useful traits usable

Engineer
he is OK as is, but make less useful traits usable

i reworded your post to what you actually meant

Neptune.2570:

Olba.5376:

Mayama.1854:

The risk reward is not equal on all classes, thats the reason why we see warriors and guardians on every team.

There is a need for different risk:reward ratios in this game.

Firstly, you need to have something that is low risk with decent reward as an entry way for new players. Otherwise you’ll see PvP dwindle to just the same people because anyone new gets stomped by the pros instantly.

Secondly, some people crave to play high risk with high reward. You can’t just take that away “because balance”.

Thirdly, an equal risk:reward ratio has nothing to do with inter-class balance. After all, how do you decide who wins when you have a low risk:low reward spec, such as a tank, against a high risk:high reward build such as a glass cannon? Based on just that one parameter, you can’t do kitten.

Newer players shouldn’t be highly rewarded though. Sure there should be safer specs which work well for newer or less skilled players, but they should not be highly rewarding and more influential then a large skill gap.
Currently high risk = practically no reward, practically no risk = decent reward for most specs. It has nothing to do with new or old players. It’s reflected across all players and it’s why we’re stuck in this stale meta.

A veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day.

That will only create an environment that cannot grow.

The reason why high risk does not amount to high reward is because of Quickness. We used to have Bull’s Charge>100 blades with Frenzy as a combination that would kill most others instantly, but if countered it would also die easily. And ANet said that they do not want a meta where you get stomped over and over again before you can react.

Olba.5376:

Neptune.2570:

Olba.5376:

Mayama.1854:

The risk reward is not equal on all classes, thats the reason why we see warriors and guardians on every team.

There is a need for different risk:reward ratios in this game.

Firstly, you need to have something that is low risk with decent reward as an entry way for new players. Otherwise you’ll see PvP dwindle to just the same people because anyone new gets stomped by the pros instantly.

Secondly, some people crave to play high risk with high reward. You can’t just take that away “because balance”.

Thirdly, an equal risk:reward ratio has nothing to do with inter-class balance. After all, how do you decide who wins when you have a low risk:low reward spec, such as a tank, against a high risk:high reward build such as a glass cannon? Based on just that one parameter, you can’t do kitten.

Newer players shouldn’t be highly rewarded though. Sure there should be safer specs which work well for newer or less skilled players, but they should not be highly rewarding and more influential then a large skill gap.
Currently high risk = practically no reward, practically no risk = decent reward for most specs. It has nothing to do with new or old players. It’s reflected across all players and it’s why we’re stuck in this stale meta.

A veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day.

That will only create an environment that cannot grow.

…what?

a veteran should be able to win against a newcomer all day, yes. because otherwise, you’re telling me skill should not be a factor. and if there’s no skill, no one will play, and it’ll die.

please never make a competitive game, ever.

Olba.5376:

Neptune.2570:

Olba.5376:

Mayama.1854:

The risk reward is not equal on all classes, thats the reason why we see warriors and guardians on every team.

There is a need for different risk:reward ratios in this game.

Firstly, you need to have something that is low risk with decent reward as an entry way for new players. Otherwise you’ll see PvP dwindle to just the same people because anyone new gets stomped by the pros instantly.

Secondly, some people crave to play high risk with high reward. You can’t just take that away “because balance”.

Thirdly, an equal risk:reward ratio has nothing to do with inter-class balance. After all, how do you decide who wins when you have a low risk:low reward spec, such as a tank, against a high risk:high reward build such as a glass cannon? Based on just that one parameter, you can’t do kitten.

Newer players shouldn’t be highly rewarded though. Sure there should be safer specs which work well for newer or less skilled players, but they should not be highly rewarding and more influential then a large skill gap.
Currently high risk = practically no reward, practically no risk = decent reward for most specs. It has nothing to do with new or old players. It’s reflected across all players and it’s why we’re stuck in this stale meta.

A veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day.

That will only create an environment that cannot grow.

The reason why high risk does not amount to high reward is because of Quickness. We used to have Bull’s Charge>100 blades with Frenzy as a combination that would kill most others instantly, but if countered it would also die easily. And ANet said that they do not want a meta where you get stomped over and over again before you can react.

Of course a newer player should be getting stomped to an experienced skilled player, that’s part of learning the game. Matchmaking should make it so newer players rarely come up against experienced players, but to think that anything other then skill should decide the outcome because new players want to be good instantly? There trying to make this an e-sport, not make every single player feel super nice about there PvP skill coz they can walk into an arena and beat an experienced player with 3 buttons.

The quickness buff has pretty much no relevance to the imbalance of risk/reward. I’m not sure what made you think that the meta has evolved this way and people are playing like this is because of the quickness buff.

BrunoBRS.5178:

…snip
Necro
don’t bother fixing the actual problems with necros
snip…

The problem with fixing the necro is that the only forum with as many cobwebs in it is the WvW forum.

Funny how the only place you will find the good ideas for changes are in an area where players actually play a necro, but are never visited by a dev.

Tommyknocker.6089:

The problem with fixing the necro is that the only forum with as many cobwebs in it is the WvW forum.

The problem with necro is that a D/D ele is way more tanky, has actually defensive cooldowns, more cc and damage than a necro. So why even consider using a necro in PvP

How would retal on clones change anything?
Clones have 3,200 health, which means giving them retal (which would probably only be given off of the retal on phants trait) would only be one or two strikes back. Additionally, since it uses the power of the target, which ISN’T the mesmer, you’d be having them deal a whopping 0 retal damage~!

loseridoit.2756:

Uuni.3561:

loseridoit.2756:

ummmmm…… you dont find anything odd with the consistent 5 month cycle.

The odd thing is that they call them balance patches even though you can’t keep game balanced by touching the balance every 6 months. Even 2 months would be pushing it

so you want anet keep messing with the numbers every 2 months……..

So where does q/a testing fit in your idea of anet content distribution

NO. We dont want new balance patches every 2 months. We want balance patches every 4 months but with content worth 4 months of waiting. Not just a few numbers crancked up or down. Give us new skills, new traits, something to keep the (used-to-be great) gameplay from spiralling into the pit of boring.

Rasalhague.8270:

80% of balance is cooldown changes.

Allow me to balance the game for you :

Thief
-Remove initiative but keep steal
-Put 20 second cooldown on steal
-Increase cooldown on thief sword movement skills from 3 to 6 seconds
-Increase cooldown on dagger stealth to 20 seconds

Guardian
-Decrease cooldown of Leap of Faith from 15 to 12 (without trait)
-Decrease cooldown of GS4 to 15 seconds
-Decrease cooldown of GS5 to 20 seconds
-Judge intervention to 30 sec base cooldown
-Contemplation of Purity to 40 sec base cooldown
-All spirit weapons to 40 sec base cooldown
-Save yourselves and Retreat to 40 sec base cooldown
-Hallowed Ground to 30 sec cooldown
-Sanctuary to 60 sec cooldown
-Bane signet to 30 sec cooldown
-Increase projectile speed on staff, scepter and trident

Ranger
-Increase damage of all axe skills by 20%
-Put 1/4 second of evade on the first and second hit of GS autoattack
-Improve pets health by 50%

Elementalist
-D/D Earth 5, give stability and protection when channeling earth 5
-D/D Air, reduce cooldown on Air 4 and 5
-D/D Water, reduce cooldown on water 5

Necro
-Increase radius area of wells by 200
-Staff, increase projectile speed of autoattack
-Increase damage of axe skills by 20%

Mesmer
-All clones have retaliation

Warrior
he is OK as is, but make less useful traits usable

Engineer
he is OK as is, but make less useful traits usable

pretty sure you play a guardian. What a worthless post

Mostly doing some changed for sPvP which no one in the larger parts of the game could really care about, as they’re not sweeping enough to matter.

I feel like sPvP is holding half the game hostage. Can’t do proper game-wide content, the sPvPers would mind it if their maps spontaneously change to something influences by current story. Can’t sweeping balance changes, zomgthemetawouldbeweird. Can’t do bigger class changes, it’d be “too imbalanced”.

Can’t do anything, because sPvPers think RPGs should enable 1-to-1 balance. Sometimes I feel like the biggest mistake in the MMO genre was WoW implementing arenas and hence popularizing the idea of smallscale combat (and they’ve talked about how the 2v2 arena especially was a bad mistake which is too entrenched to remove, so at least they know it).

/serious:
I suspect their teams are much smaller than what many might think. GW2 is not a game running of a monthly subscription. And they have – reportedly – a very small programming team, so any balance, story, content, everything change has to go through a long traffic jam to be coded.

mtpelion.4562:

Uuni.3561:

Doing something is infinitely better than doing nothing. If you are a professional game developer it’s not a ‘wheel-o-nerf’ because you are supposed to have some idea of what the game you are balancing is about. And I didn’t tell them to disregard statistics either, you are just trying to give me flak for stuff I didn’t say

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/dilbert-slideshow/

Check out Sunday, August 10.

Also, Tuesday July 22nd.

Why do people think this is a fast food joint?

Food takes time to cook

No, you cannot speak to the manager

This isn’t burger king. You cannot have it your way

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/feature-packs/

Aug 18, we might get some answers.

Olba.5376:

A veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day.

Wait, this makes no sense. You are seriously suggesting experienced and skilled players should not have a great advantage over inexperienced and unskilled players?

The truest definition possible in a game is that skill level specifically defines the win/lose ratio. By definition, players against equally skilled players would have a 50/50 win/lose ratio.

Olba.5376:

That will only create an environment that cannot grow.

That is not true at all.

Prince.7198:

NO. We dont want new balance patches every 2 months. We want balance patches every 4 months but with content worth 4 months of waiting. Not just a few numbers crancked up or down. Give us new skills, new traits, something to keep the (used-to-be great) gameplay from spiralling into the pit of boring.

Posters like this are a large part of the forums in general in my personal opinion. The simple fact that you feel you represent the rest of us and attempt to speak for myself and others is just embarrassing.

Carighan.6758:

I feel like sPvP is holding half the game hostage.

I would have to agree with this. Anytime you refuse to balance PvP and PvE separately, one or the other will always suffer.

coglin.1867:

Olba.5376:

A veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day.

Wait, this makes no sense. You are seriously suggesting experienced and skilled players should not have a great advantage over inexperienced and unskilled players?

The truest definition possible in a game is that skill level specifically defines the win/lose ratio. By definition, players against equally skilled players would have a 50/50 win/lose ratio.

Olba.5376:

That will only create an environment that cannot grow.

That is not true at all.

Prince.7198:

NO. We dont want new balance patches every 2 months. We want balance patches every 4 months but with content worth 4 months of waiting. Not just a few numbers crancked up or down. Give us new skills, new traits, something to keep the (used-to-be great) gameplay from spiralling into the pit of boring.

Posters like this are a large part of the forums in general in my personal opinion. The simple fact that you feel you represent the rest of us and attempt to speak for myself and others is just embarrassing.

Yeahhh, gonna have to agree with you here, coglin. This game is a skill-based game in the PvP scenario. Everyone has equal stats (for the most part), access to slightly different things based on their profession, and they utilize it differently.

The only way to improve is not to get better gear but to improve yourself and how you play. New players should always get destroyed by veterans. If they don’t, then you’re probably playing a P2W game where the newcomer has a big wallet.

The idea that there has to be an entry level for new players is somewhat true, but this entry level setup should have a higher survivability and low success, not 0 success, but low! A player should have the idea that (s)he can actually survive ‘this’ if they were to put in more effort and learn, and the skills should give the player the option to at least make a dent, and likely kill in a 2v1 situation, or against a newer player on an other profession.

The comparison here can be made with the ‘Noob Toob’ from (was it modern warfare?) an FPS game (first person shooter), as the first unlock on the base weapon. It got a lot of complaints due to it’s splash (high to moderate to low – on – direct to close to proximity) damage on a moderate recharge. This meant that a noob could chuck these things in a choke point, or in the general direction of gun fire, and be able to get a kill off (either by direct hit, or by hitting an already low on HP player). As you increased your unlocks better options and strategies unlocked for the player … And this is all fine and dandy, the problem comes when such an option remains the best option, and no other/better strategies unlock, or such an option becomes part of a cheesy ‘exploit’ like fighting technique…

And I feel like the warrior might be somewhat suffering from this (given that the latest patch might change some things a bit – although personally I have my doubts). It seems to come with ‘noob’ protection as a base quality, and progresses to unlock more damage, but the ‘noob’ protection doesn’t diminish as the power increases, and the power progresses to pretty much the highest in the game… That IS a problem, because now you have moderate to high skilled players ‘basically exploiting’ a profession due to the lack of weaknesses at the higher skill sealing. And there are no ‘unlock’ options for other players that move on beyond the warrior, to give more interesting and more powerful strategies to them at a ‘higher risk’…

Now to be fair, the Warrior should be a viable profession at the higher skill levels, there is no reason to deem one whole profession as a ‘Noob Toob’. Actually all professions should more then likely have a ‘Noob Toob’ equivalent. But as players progress the options and power should increase, at the expense of loosing the ‘Noob Toob’ setup.

Uuni.3561:

mtpelion.4562:

Balancing consists of the following steps:

1. Collect Data.
2. Review Data to see if Balancing is required.
3. If required, propose solutions.
4. Determine if solutions meet your goals, are realistic, and do not significantly impact other areas of the game.
5. Select a solution.
6. Develop the solution.
7. Test the solution.
8. Revise the solution if anything comes up during testing.
9. Test again if revisions are made.
10. Repeat 8-9 as needed.
11. Release Balancing changes.

Start over at step 1.

They can skip steps 1 and 2 in some cases by playing the game and seeing what creates unhealthy play patterns ie. player can’t react because there is no way to avoid something/they don’t have enough information. This goes for most cases, they are (hopefully) professionals at this. Another thing is listening to feedback and looking graphs if they got them, sure

Step 3 only occurs if there is something detected so it’s fairly obvious
Step 4 is the reason why PvE and PvP should be balanced differently. There is absolutely no need to lift your hands up in the air and say you can’t do something because it would affect another aspect of the game if those aspects are easily separated
I doubt the existence of 6-10 even existing in most cases. A lot of the changes aren’t too well thought out and we don’t have a public beta testing going on where they could even gather the data required for revisioning the changes. Most of the changes are numerical anyway and not new mechanics so the ‘development’ doesn’t actually take time

It sure as hell doesn’t take 6 months to figure out 5% tweaks to skill damages. I do appreciate the big changes WHEN we get them but as for balance updates, they don’t really help the balance much at all. The patches are too infrequent and the balance will be skewed in some other direction in just a few weeks at best, causing the game to be pretty much dead and stagnated when it comes to innovation for more than 90% of the time

I’m sorry but while your intentions are good and it’s undeniable ANet is extremely slow and very inefficient with their balancing timeframes, this is probably the worst analysis on a form of revision and development cycle (like the SDLC) which are considered absolutely essential in modern day practices and are arguably law in their respective fields.

The REAL problem with ANet’s balancing tendencies is that they keep trying to find “low-hanging fruit” fixes to try and number-tweak the classes into balances without making any impactful changes to the game. The problem is that some of the issues that persist and have persisted in the game simply are not “low-hanging fruit” fixes and require major overhauls. Ultimately ANet I believe knows this, but is choosing not to perform these types of reworks on the basis that they do not wish to make tweaks which may have an effect of impacting players negatively, and do not believe that overbuffing in attempts to resolve problems with the possibility of immediate hotfixes is feasible. The issue with this strategy is that for years they will dive into “low-hanging fruit” fixes, and eventually the time will come when they discover they absolutely have to perform major reworks, in which case they’ll have to make such changes and then for the next several years maintain “low-hanging fruit” fixes all over again for the new overhauls which they could have just done from the get-go and used the same timeframe to perfect them.

Olba.5376:

A veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day.

That will only create an environment that cannot grow.

That’s the dumbest thing I’ve read all day. If an experienced player isn’t meant to be able to beat a new player, then there’s no incentive to learn the game in the first place.

Black Box.9312:

Olba.5376:

A veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day.

That will only create an environment that cannot grow.

That’s the dumbest thing I’ve read all day. If an experienced player isn’t meant to be able to beat a new player, then there’s no incentive to learn the game in the first place.

You didn’t correctly read the post you quoted.
He (she?) said “a veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day”.
You then said, “if an experienced player isn’t meant to be able to beat a new player”.

That’s quite a large difference in what the lines actually say. There’s also the difference in implied meaning between “stomp” (implying an easy or complete victory) and “beat” (implying nothing, the victory may be close or easy or whatever). But that’s minor compared to the always vs at-all explicit component.

Carighan.6758:

Black Box.9312:

Olba.5376:

A veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day.

That will only create an environment that cannot grow.

That’s the dumbest thing I’ve read all day. If an experienced player isn’t meant to be able to beat a new player, then there’s no incentive to learn the game in the first place.

You didn’t correctly read the post you quoted.
He (she?) said “a veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day”.
You then said, “if an experienced player isn’t meant to be able to beat a new player”.

That’s quite a large difference in what the lines actually say. There’s also the difference in implied meaning between “stomp” (implying an easy or complete victory) and “beat” (implying nothing, the victory may be close or easy or whatever). But that’s minor compared to the always vs at-all explicit component.

That’s irrelevant, because a player who knows the ins and outs of a game should always have the upper hand against someone who does not. Dota 2, for example, requires extensive knowledge of each hero ability and item in order to master the game. A team of 5 players who don’t know the abilities and items have a clear disadvantage when paired against a team of 5 experienced players that have learned the game.

This is as it should be, because it encourages players to get more invested into the game so that they can advance their skill and play better. Obviously there are going to be outliers (i.e. the veteran player makes a mistake that gives the newcomer the upper hand), but a new player should never have a consistent advantage over an experienced player.

Carighan.6758:

Black Box.9312:

Olba.5376:

A veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day.

That will only create an environment that cannot grow.

That’s the dumbest thing I’ve read all day. If an experienced player isn’t meant to be able to beat a new player, then there’s no incentive to learn the game in the first place.

You didn’t correctly read the post you quoted.
He (she?) said “a veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day”.
You then said, “if an experienced player isn’t meant to be able to beat a new player”.

That’s quite a large difference in what the lines actually say. There’s also the difference in implied meaning between “stomp” (implying an easy or complete victory) and “beat” (implying nothing, the victory may be close or easy or whatever). But that’s minor compared to the always vs at-all explicit component.

This is exactly what I was trying to point out.

Basically, if a contest between a veteran and a new comer ends with 100-0 for the veteran, there’s a problem. Heck, even 10-0 is pushing it.

A new comer should have the possibility of beating their opponent, regardless of how long they have played.

If you have an environment where a new comer has no chance against a more experienced player, you’re doomed:

• If you do not separate the players into strict tiers, you end up with the new comers quitting because they get dominated over and over again by the veterans.
• If you do separate the players into strict tiers, you will end up with players manipulating their position once they reach the upper limit of the current tier.

If you don’t believe that this would happen, I advice you to look at WvW during the tournaments. We had whole servers dropping their ranking so that they could be the top dog in a lower tier rather than fight against similar servers in their current ranking.

That’s irrelevant, because a player who knows the ins and outs of a game should always have the upper hand against someone who does not

They already do. By being a veteran, they have an inherent advantage in knowledge and experience.

I’ll leave this episode of Extra Credits that talks about the point I am making. Please try to avoid falling into the pit traps of fallaciously arguing that the video is wrong because you think one of the examples they provide is not a good example.

Olba.5376:

Basically, if a contest between a veteran and a new comer ends with 100-0 for the veteran, there’s a problem. Heck, even 10-0 is pushing it.

A new comer should have the possibility of beating their opponent, regardless of how long they have played.

There is. Even veteran players make mistakes. But that’s the point; human error should be the only factor that can give an unskilled player a victory over a skilled one. When you implement game mechanics that reward new players over experienced ones, you are punishing players for working harder to improve themselves, which is completely counter-intuitive.

without quoting anyone in specific, i’ll try to write down what makes an ideal balanced game.

it’s all about skill level. two equally skilled players should each have about 50% chance of winning, assuming they both play flawlessly. the game can have different playstyles, but the important thing is that these playstyles are so balanced that they don’t influence the results.

now, once the players are in different skill levels, the tips will always scale in favor of the higher skilled player. so (again, in a theoretical fight in which both players are at their best) 60/40, 70/30, until, theoretically, 100/0.

what makes a game balanced is that skill is the only thing getting in the way of the results, no matter the preferred playstyle. human factor (read: failing to perfectly execute your game) can and will tip the scales, but the game itself should never get in the way.

a perfect example of this are, you know, actual, real sports. sports rules work so that the game itself is 100% based on human factors, like skill.

I am with Black Box on this. Human error is what levels the playing field. There should be no inherent bonuses in a game that allow a newcomer to dispatch a veteran player, because that seriously undermines the work that a good player puts in to achieve that level of greatness.

I do agree that people should learn by competing against players of like skill. It’s not fun getting trounced 100 times in a row by a player better than you, so it’s good to work your way up. At the same time a lot can be learned from those losses, as well. Sometimes a loss means more than a win for the growth of a player.

This makes me think of the arcade days of dudes crowded around a fighting game machine. I remember getting continuously whooped when I was new to the scene, but I never felt like that was unfair. What would be their motivation to play if one dude can slap his quarters in and rack up a huge win streak after only playing the game for a few hours?

Black Box.9312:

Olba.5376:

Basically, if a contest between a veteran and a new comer ends with 100-0 for the veteran, there’s a problem. Heck, even 10-0 is pushing it.

A new comer should have the possibility of beating their opponent, regardless of how long they have played.

There is. Even veteran players make mistakes. But that’s the point; human error should be the only factor that can give an unskilled player a victory over a skilled one. When you implement game mechanics that reward new players over experienced ones, you are punishing players for working harder to improve themselves, which is completely counter-intuitive.

Of course everyone makes mistakes. The thing is, a new comer isn’t someone with the ability to recognize and take advantage of that mistake. Someone capable of that is already beyond being a new comer and well into being an experienced player.

And I think you’re still not quite grasping what I’m getting at. I am not saying that a newcomer should be able to consistently beat a veteran just by using a “newbie friendly build”. I am saying that there should be some builds that allow for a newcomer to get an occasional win, even against a veteran player.

You should never, ever judge balance on a single encounter. Just because a newcomer manages a win over a veteran once due to their build doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t mean anything because there will be far, far more numerous encounters where the veteran will win.

I do agree that people should learn by competing against players of like skill. It’s not fun getting trounced 100 times in a row by a player better than you, so it’s good to work your way up. At the same time a lot can be learned from those losses, as well. Sometimes a loss means more than a win for the growth of a player.

Of course, losing is important. Losing shows you that there is still something that you could improve on, something you could have changed. But losing over and over again, even if those losses are due to a single flaw that you’re not grasping, is just going to make you walk away.

Olba.5376:

I am saying that there should be some builds that allow for a newcomer to get an occasional win, even against a veteran player.

I get that; and I am telling you that I wholeheartedly disagree.

Black Box.9312:

Olba.5376:

I am saying that there should be some builds that allow for a newcomer to get an occasional win, even against a veteran player.

I get that; and I am telling you that I wholeheartedly disagree.

The thing is that these builds also cross over all skill lvl’s. High skilled players using safe builds to consisantly beat other high skilled players. There isn’t downsides to using these builds. None whatsoever.
Also while a new player may not pick up on the other players mistakes at first if there getting punished for making there mistakes there going to learn. How are they going to learn when meta builds are so forgiving that they do not get punished. How will they ever realize there mistake and begin to get better?

Let’s face it the only people who are ok with the time it takes to release changes are those who main a warrior. I main a necro and yes the schedule when changes are released are way to slow.

I mean heck this the only MMO I’ve ever played where “condition” damage has really no use in PvE and it’s been years already. I feel when changes do come around they are usually a big let down since you have to wait so long for such minor tweaks.

People are actually defending the ridiculously long balance cycle, that always changes NOTHING?

Axialbloom.8109:

People are actually defending the ridiculously long balance cycle, that always changes NOTHING?

Some people are okay with the long cycle to allow time to make informed changes, yes. If you feel it never changes anything, then yes, I disagree with you. I do not always personally like the changes they make, but too many posters here are arguing from the perspective that their idea of balance is the only correct one.

Brighteluden.2974:

Let’s face it the only people who are ok with the time it takes to release changes are those who main a warrior. I main a necro and yes the schedule when changes are released are way to slow.

I mean heck this the only MMO I’ve ever played where “condition” damage has really no use in PvE and it’s been years already. I feel when changes do come around they are usually a big let down since you have to wait so long for such minor tweaks.

I love my necro too but I’ve definitely experienced issues with damage over time skills in another game personally. I played a warlock in another popular mmo and conditions overwriting each other or not stacking properly with other players to the same effect as other damage types was a problem with that mmo for years before a reasonable fix came into play. And from what I’ve heard, balancing damage over time skills against direct damage skills is a conceptual issue for lots of mmos. I’d be curious to hear if anyone has a favorite damage over time system used in an mmo that they felt didn’t have any glaring issues. Guild Wars 2 doesn’t seem to me to be some sort of exception with this issue.

With that said, I am eagerly awaiting what changes they have in mind for Necros in one of the next Skill Bars to see what they are looking at to improve them within the current system. Some of the changes to engineer were things engi players were clamoring for and ranger got some positives changes as well, so I’m hoping it’s not going to be a necro QQ day when their turn comes. They’ll try to balance conditions in PVE eventually but yeah, I too have no clue when.

Black Box.9312:

There is. Even veteran players make mistakes. But that’s the point; human error should be the only factor that can give an unskilled player a victory over a skilled one.

“Yes”.
That is to say, it depends on how tightly balanced your game is.

Put 5 veterans versus 5 newcomers in DotA2, even with tons of error on the side of the veterans they will never lose. This is because MOBA’s approach to escalating mistakes makes sure that the newcomers are always (constantly!) recovering from earlier mistakes they made, while the veterans have the “luxury” of being free to recover since the newcomers are busy doing the same (and will make less mistakes in the first place).

As in, DotA2 doesn’t support what Olba meant. Which is ok. MOBAs in general don’t try to be newbie-approachable, their broad appeal currently comes in spite of how difficult it is to pick them up. Not because of it.

And that’s where I then have to disagree with your assessment from a post earlier up, the encouragement to improve. Yes, it happens, but only if the newcomer does not give up frustrated first.

Now, compare situations.

In a MOBA:

• No other subgame to play. Actually not entirely true, but sec with co-op-vs-AI.
• Friends encourage you to play.
• Game forces you to climb the same hill as everyone else.
• Game is free.

In GW2 (or any MMO, really):

• Plenty other stuff to do than play sPvP.
• Friends encourage you to not frustrate yourself, because anger will annoy them.
• Game never forces you to play sPvP.
• Game cost you money, initially, monthly, whatever.

The tolerance for frustration is very low in MMOs, and understandably so. In a MOBA, you’re not even paying anything, and most people know F2Ps are an exercise in frustration when you start out. For the F2P-subtype it’s actually refreshing to know that it “just” needs you to improve, not to spend 500€.

But a MMO player will say “whatever!” and go play PvE or WvW instead. They won’t bother because they rarely see a light at the end of the tunnel. Olba’s point was that you need this light. Even not truly knowing how to exploit a veteran’s players mistake, you need to give a newcomer that odd lucky shot. That odd moment to feel awesome. That is what makes them stick to the game mode. And by sticking around they can improve.

P.S.:
Versus-AI exists in most MOBAs. Technically this only underlines the point, there’s a very large group of people who only plays co-op because they find PvP too stressful and not rewarding enough in DotA2.

TL’DR:
Yes, veterans need a clear advantage. But this advantage should be as small as you can make it (while still existing clearly), so that any mistake a veteran makes can quickly (not rarely, the crucial point!) result in a win for a rookie.

Carighan.6758:

TL’DR:
Yes, veterans need a clear advantage. But this advantage should be as small as you can make it (while still existing clearly), so that any mistake a veteran makes can quickly (not rarely, the crucial point!) result in a win for a rookie.

Theirs no competitive game on computer or reality that works that way. Experience and trained reflexes > all.

Veterans advantage has to come experience and a wider knowledge of the abilities and their effects than a newcomers.

A veteran player has to now when to use something for its max effect and also needs to know what can the enemy do to counter him.

Experience and practice is what makes the difference between veterans and newcomers. Other advantages than this (gear, progresion….) should never exist in any kind of PvP (yes, WvW i’m looking at you)

I think WvW is okay having gear/skill differences because it is kind of in a weird halfway between pve and pvp. It’s like pvp-lite for noobs like me who can’t do better than zerg.

Anyway, I’d be surprised if there was a dedicated balance team considering how slow the balance updates are. I think the words “dedicated” and “team” are the culprits here, as even having one “dedicated” balance dev would produce more balance updates than we get right now, let alone a “team” of them.