Guild Wars 2

Mayama.1854:

Carighan.6758:

TL’DR:
Yes, veterans need a clear advantage. But this advantage should be as small as you can make it (while still existing clearly), so that any mistake a veteran makes can quickly (not rarely, the crucial point!) result in a win for a rookie.

Theirs no competitive game on computer or reality that works that way. Experience and trained reflexes > all.

Exactly, if you don’t reward experience enough, why don’t you play dice then? Still everyone has the same chance to win if the dice is fair. I know it looks like oversimplification but think about it, no matter how i’m experienced still a warrior jumps in and kills my characters with its stupid regen and overpowered abilities. And do i have to wait for them to fix this “new-player-friendly” (as you say) kitten? I don’t care the game’s vision is all fit for casual gamers or people who don’t want to think much or do nothing but button mashing. I’m playing Dota since 2005 and if you want to see how a game can be competitive, look at them. Or a similiar game, Heroes of Newerth always changing the heroes due to equality and game balance. You don’t have to wait for 6 months to see one ability is overpowered.
I guess the problem is their lack of knowledge about the game. They don’t know the game that they coded. Or else they would say ‘That would be too much because we gave them armour/hp/damage/avoiders etc.’ but instead they fed those people with more unbalance. It doesn’t mean that you have to buff those classes all the time just because people who has low ability to learn and has no skill cluster on some classes. Let them face the ground too and learn the game just because they have to if they don’t wanna lose. We invented so much things because of that, even science works this way. You wanna carry more? Here, a stone shaped like circle, voila.

coglin.1867:

Axialbloom.8109:

People are actually defending the ridiculously long balance cycle, that always changes NOTHING?

Some people are okay with the long cycle to allow time to make informed changes, yes. If you feel it never changes anything, then yes, I disagree with you. I do not always personally like the changes they make, but too many posters here are arguing from the perspective that their idea of balance is the only correct one.

And what has changed since the last update? Or the one before that, last dec?

I think that they have so old engine that they need 3 days just to rename the skill. So they usually need 6 months just to adjust and create some new spells, because it is so old program that you have to write all by hand, you cant copy paste, anything…

And when someone says that they have 400 or 300 employees they probably have 5 of them working as a balance team.

Biohazard.7523:

And when someone says that they have 400 or 300 employees they probably have 5 of them working as a balance team.

That would not be a problem because a balance team does not need to be big to be good, they dont code it, they dont make graphics and models they just balance it.

For all we know maybee they are good at what they are doing but balance has such a low priority in the production pipeline or they are forced to only release stuff every 6 month with the rest of the game. The slow update cycle is the real problem here because even really good balance teams basically adjust stuff more or less randomly to tweak it right, you can never really know what happens if you alter a number in such a complex system.

Olba.5376:

A veteran player should not be able to stomp a new comer all day.

The hell am I reading?

You actually want to create a game that is less reliant on skill?

Go to bed

Axialbloom.8109:

coglin.1867:

Axialbloom.8109:

People are actually defending the ridiculously long balance cycle, that always changes NOTHING?

Some people are okay with the long cycle to allow time to make informed changes, yes. If you feel it never changes anything, then yes, I disagree with you. I do not always personally like the changes they make, but too many posters here are arguing from the perspective that their idea of balance is the only correct one.

And what has changed since the last update? Or the one before that, last dec?

are you really going to try and argue that the meta didn’t see a shift with the rune/sigil changes? really?

BrunoBRS.5178:

Axialbloom.8109:

coglin.1867:

Axialbloom.8109:

People are actually defending the ridiculously long balance cycle, that always changes NOTHING?

Some people are okay with the long cycle to allow time to make informed changes, yes. If you feel it never changes anything, then yes, I disagree with you. I do not always personally like the changes they make, but too many posters here are arguing from the perspective that their idea of balance is the only correct one.

And what has changed since the last update? Or the one before that, last dec?

are you really going to try and argue that the meta didn’t see a shift with the rune/sigil changes? really?

People certainly did change some runes, and they did open up new rune options, but what actually changed in the meta?

-Hambow/zerk thief/midbunker are still S tier
-The ‘decent builds that are pushed out by vastly better options’ crowd is still dps guard/Mesmer/necro/ranger
-the ‘lol how cute’ trash tiers are still power necro, power ranger/various other support options

It’s the exact same builds in the exact same places except now everyone has a parrot

Axialbloom.8109:

People are actually defending the ridiculously long balance cycle, that always changes NOTHING?

No, people are defending the balancing cycle itself.

There’s a massive difference. The time it takes to execute changes versus the process are nothing alike. Compare GW2 skill updates and balancing effort frequency to that of say, League of Legends. One happens every 4-6 months, the other, almost every two weeks. Does this make the balancing process of League different? No. It just means they’re faster at doing the same thing since more effort goes into keeping their game balanced, and they put forth an immense amount of effort to do so. They are also willing to do as I said (make sweeping changes to particular champions (or classes)) when they see a broken mechanic or dynamic rather than trying to merely fix “low-hanging fruit” fixes first before even considering what needs to be reworked as ANet does. This doesn’t make the aforementioned cycle any different; it’s just their means of execution.

That’s the problem with ANet. They’re using a model which for all intensive purposes works well. The problem is lazy and in some instances just downright poor execution and handling of their game’s balance state, kind of as though they’re not using any kind of analysis to gather data for their balancing efforts and are instead just taking shots in the dark based solely upon occasional views of community feedback and “problems” that exist solely in the eyes of current competitive tPvP’ers who abide by a meta.

[quote=4293652;DeceiverX.8361:]

DeceiverX.8361:

They are also willing to do as I said (make sweeping changes to particular champions (or classes)) when they see a broken mechanic or dynamic rather than trying to merely fix “low-hanging fruit” fixes first before even considering what needs to be reworked as ANet does.

But being honest, what low hanging fruit has been fixed by Anet?

There are numerous weaponsets and trait combos which give the implication of being dedicated toward certain builds that have been trash since release. Just look at power necro, interrupt Mesmer, hammer guard, ranged thieves – they barely exist in pvp, and for good reason; they are ineffective compared to the meta options.

There has only been one time when Anet has helped the ‘low hanging fruit’ and I can swear, I’m never usually one to throw out ‘the devs play warriors’ as a thing, even jokingly. But the fact is that two influential devs do play warrior as their main, and that class alone has been brought up from inviability into in absolute powerhouse in almost every way.

The balance patches are tiny tweaks at enormous intervals -except in the case of warriors – which just isn’t acceptable.

azuzephyr.7280:

But being honest, what low hanging fruit has been fixed by Anet?

I can list a ridiculous amount. The massive change to sigils, runes. The ability to put 2 sigils on 2 handed weapons. Warrior hammer changes, Nerf to the hated 100 nades engineer build……………..so on………..and………..so forth. They have made a very great deal of changes.

azuzephyr.7280:

There are numerous weaponsets and trait combos which give the implication of being dedicated toward certain builds that have been trash since release. Just look at power necro, interrupt Mesmer, hammer guard, ranged thieves – they barely exist in pvp, and for good reason; they are ineffective compared to the meta options.

I think your crazy to think hammer guardians and power power necros are garbage. I see hammer guardians everywhere and power necros are very popular on T1 WvW severs as well as intelligent players in dungeons.

azuzephyr.7280:

There has only been one time when Anet has helped the ‘low hanging fruit’ and I can swear, I’m never usually one to throw out ‘the devs play warriors’ as a thing, even jokingly. But the fact is that two influential devs do play warrior as their main, and that class alone has been brought up from inviability into in absolute powerhouse in almost every way.

I doubt the fact that two devs play warriors has near as much to do with the fact that they buffed a profession in areas that it was previously, ridiculously weak. You are making unfounded accusations. Which do not help anyone. One of the main PvP devs plays an engineer and they have had all of their power builds nerfed because of massive forums complaint pointing out problems with them. Which in itself voids your unfounded accusations a fair bit in my opinion.

azuzephyr.7280:

The balance patches are tiny tweaks at enormous intervals -except in the case of warriors – which just isn’t acceptable.

Not nearly as tiny as you think.

Can you give me one example of a build which is now viable in pvp which was not prior to the sigil changes?

Because my team and the teams we face can’t, it’s the same builds; now with 15 stacks of might and parrot.

azuzephyr.7280:

Can you give me one example of a build which is now viable in pvp which was not prior to the sigil changes?

Because my team and the teams we face can’t, it’s the same builds; now with 15 stacks of might and parrot.

Turret engineer. Celestial engineer hybrid (probably the most popular engie build in PvP today), the celestial ele builds. Just to name 3.

Those are the same builds with different amulets, engi was in exactly the same place pre-patch, it didn’t change a thing

Carighan.6758:

Black Box.9312:

There is. Even veteran players make mistakes. But that’s the point; human error should be the only factor that can give an unskilled player a victory over a skilled one.

“Yes”.
That is to say, it depends on how tightly balanced your game is.

Put 5 veterans versus 5 newcomers in DotA2, even with tons of error on the side of the veterans they will never lose. This is because MOBA’s approach to escalating mistakes makes sure that the newcomers are always (constantly!) recovering from earlier mistakes they made, while the veterans have the “luxury” of being free to recover since the newcomers are busy doing the same (and will make less mistakes in the first place).

As in, DotA2 doesn’t support what Olba meant. Which is ok. MOBAs in general don’t try to be newbie-approachable, their broad appeal currently comes in spite of how difficult it is to pick them up. Not because of it.

And that’s where I then have to disagree with your assessment from a post earlier up, the encouragement to improve. Yes, it happens, but only if the newcomer does not give up frustrated first.

Now, compare situations.

In a MOBA:

• No other subgame to play. Actually not entirely true, but sec with co-op-vs-AI.
• Friends encourage you to play.
• Game forces you to climb the same hill as everyone else.
• Game is free.

In GW2 (or any MMO, really):

• Plenty other stuff to do than play sPvP.
• Friends encourage you to not frustrate yourself, because anger will annoy them.
• Game never forces you to play sPvP.
• Game cost you money, initially, monthly, whatever.

The tolerance for frustration is very low in MMOs, and understandably so. In a MOBA, you’re not even paying anything, and most people know F2Ps are an exercise in frustration when you start out. For the F2P-subtype it’s actually refreshing to know that it “just” needs you to improve, not to spend 500€.

But a MMO player will say “whatever!” and go play PvE or WvW instead. They won’t bother because they rarely see a light at the end of the tunnel. Olba’s point was that you need this light. Even not truly knowing how to exploit a veteran’s players mistake, you need to give a newcomer that odd lucky shot. That odd moment to feel awesome. That is what makes them stick to the game mode. And by sticking around they can improve.

P.S.:
Versus-AI exists in most MOBAs. Technically this only underlines the point, there’s a very large group of people who only plays co-op because they find PvP too stressful and not rewarding enough in DotA2.

I started Dota 2 back in early 2012 when they were still handing out ‘beta’ invites and the whole thing was still pretty new. I had friends that were DotA and LoL veterans that were already familiarized with the game and experienced with the genre. I had none of that experience whatsoever; in fact I was hardly much of a PC gamer at all before then.

When I first started playing Dota 2, I got my kitten handed to me an immeasurable number of times because I started playing before they had fully developed the matchmaking system that they use now. I was getting paired up against teams of veteran players that knew what they were doing, and I was punished for it. Did I throw my mouse and keyboard and cry in frustration? No. I kept at it, watched how top-tier players played, learned the heroes and items, and worked my way to the point that I’m at now. Am I amazing at it? No, but I know the game well enough to carry a team when needed, and I’ve won my fair share of matches.

The point I’m trying to make with this is that it’s not worth trying to make a competitive game appeal to gamers that will simply walk away at the first sign of trouble. The bottom line is that if there’s competition, someone is going to have to lose, and if your game is truly special the newcomers will learn from losing time and time again, and will work to improve themselves so that they can finally stop losing.

As for the MMO vs. the MOBA, you can’t really separate the argument between the two, because the fact is that GW2 sPvP was marketed as an eSport. An eSport, by definition, is meant to be highly competitive among the most elite players. You can’t have elite players if it doesn’t take time, hard work, and dedication to master the game and you have ample opportunity to beat a veteran player from Day 1. Casual gamers are not competitive; eSports gamers are. You can’t try to appeal to two polar opposite crowds, because all you’re left with is a mess, as you can see with GW2’s current sPvP.

azuzephyr.7280:

Those are the same builds with different amulets, engi was in exactly the same place pre-patch, it didn’t change a thing

That is not true. My experience suggest there are very different trait set ups. So let me ask you this, you suggest that turret engies (which didn’t exist at all before) are not new builds?

Not to mention, you do not thing an over all gear change in which players are using completely different stats and runes does not define a new build?

Black Box.9312:

As for the MMO vs. the MOBA, you can’t really separate the argument between the two, because the fact is that GW2 sPvP was marketed as an eSport. An eSport, by definition, is meant to be highly competitive among the most elite players. You can’t have elite players if it doesn’t take time, hard work, and dedication to master the game and you have ample opportunity to beat a veteran player from Day 1. Casual gamers are not competitive; eSports gamers are. You can’t try to appeal to two polar opposite crowds, because all you’re left with is a mess, as you can see with GW2’s current sPvP.

I think its healthy for mmo’s to have a more casual PvP mode. I know everyone crys about how Bliz handles WoW PvP but they did a pretty good job at giving people a casual orientated capture the flag or hold the point mode and a super serious 3v3 arena. Newbies usually cry how completly broken frost mages are in WoW and how they can win 1v3 in arena mode. Good players know that in a serious match frost mages get focused 24/7 and its actually a very frustraiting job to do and do well.

In the more casual modes newbies can learn how to actually counter specs like that and its not the end of the world if they die while trying. GW2 basically has no casual PvP mode because WvW doesnt count. I mean how can anybody, for example, learn how to counter warriors when they can stack CC reduction to a point where it doesnt affect them at all.

Mayama.1854:

Black Box.9312:

As for the MMO vs. the MOBA, you can’t really separate the argument between the two, because the fact is that GW2 sPvP was marketed as an eSport. An eSport, by definition, is meant to be highly competitive among the most elite players. You can’t have elite players if it doesn’t take time, hard work, and dedication to master the game and you have ample opportunity to beat a veteran player from Day 1. Casual gamers are not competitive; eSports gamers are. You can’t try to appeal to two polar opposite crowds, because all you’re left with is a mess, as you can see with GW2’s current sPvP.

I think its healthy for mmo’s to have a more casual PvP mode. I know everyone crys about how Bliz handles WoW PvP but they did a pretty good job at giving people a casual orientated capture the flag or hold the point mode and a super serious 3v3 arena. Newbies usually cry how completly broken frost mages are in WoW and how they can win 1v3 in arena mode. Good players know that in a serious match frost mages get focused 24/7 and its actually a very frustraiting job to do and do well.

In the more casual modes newbies can learn how to actually counter specs like that and its not the end of the world if they die while trying. GW2 basically has no casual PvP mode because WvW doesnt count. I mean how can anybody, for example, learn how to counter warriors when they can stack CC reduction to a point where it doesnt affect them at all.

Regardless of whether or not there is a casual side alongside the competitive scene, the point of the matter is that you cannot balance based on the casual crowd, because it either empowers the experienced players even further by allowing them to more easily master the game, or it removes the skill curve completely because everyone will perform the same regardless of player skill.

Both of those are terrible for balancing because it provides no incentive to keep playing to improve. If Dota 2 based their balancing on casual pub games every hero would be simplified to the point that their abilities would be nearly indistinguishable from one another and there would be no depth to the game and no reason to invest time and effort into it.

there is no such thing as “balance”

all it is a “BALANCING ACT” to entertain a few people complaining about character X!

the best thing they could do for the game is to add new classes weapons and more skills more traits…

they need some game changers not more “balancing acts”

Black Box.9312:

Regardless of whether or not there is a casual side alongside the competitive scene, the point of the matter is that you cannot balance based on the casual crowd, because it either empowers the experienced players even further by allowing them to more easily master the game, or it removes the skill curve completely because everyone will perform the same regardless of player skill.

You seem to be confusing MMOs with MoBA’s. MOBA’s are games that are completely competative with no PvE. MMOs in general, particularly GW2 has a very large portion of the player base in PvE. So to suggest that you cannot balance based on casual players when they are probably 80%+ of the player base as well s income for this game, seems very irrational to me.

Black Box.9312:

Both of those are terrible for balancing because it provides no incentive to keep playing to improve. If Dota 2 based their balancing on casual pub games every hero would be simplified to the point that their abilities would be nearly indistinguishable from one another and there would be no depth to the game and no reason to invest time and effort into it.

Again your comparing a game like DoTA 2 that is a competitive only game, to an MMO, is apples to oranges.

coglin.1867:

Black Box.9312:

Regardless of whether or not there is a casual side alongside the competitive scene, the point of the matter is that you cannot balance based on the casual crowd, because it either empowers the experienced players even further by allowing them to more easily master the game, or it removes the skill curve completely because everyone will perform the same regardless of player skill.

You seem to be confusing MMOs with MoBA’s. MOBA’s are games that are completely competative with no PvE. MMOs in general, particularly GW2 has a very large portion of the player base in PvE. So to suggest that you cannot balance based on casual players when they are probably 80%+ of the player base as well s income for this game, seems very irrational to me.

Black Box.9312:

Both of those are terrible for balancing because it provides no incentive to keep playing to improve. If Dota 2 based their balancing on casual pub games every hero would be simplified to the point that their abilities would be nearly indistinguishable from one another and there would be no depth to the game and no reason to invest time and effort into it.

Again your comparing a game like DoTA 2 that is a competitive only game, to an MMO, is apples to oranges.

I already explained why you can’t just dismiss it as ‘apples to oranges’. If you’re not willing to read into that then I have no desire to speak to you further.

Black Box.9312:

coglin.1867:

Black Box.9312:

Regardless of whether or not there is a casual side alongside the competitive scene, the point of the matter is that you cannot balance based on the casual crowd, because it either empowers the experienced players even further by allowing them to more easily master the game, or it removes the skill curve completely because everyone will perform the same regardless of player skill.

You seem to be confusing MMOs with MoBA’s. MOBA’s are games that are completely competative with no PvE. MMOs in general, particularly GW2 has a very large portion of the player base in PvE. So to suggest that you cannot balance based on casual players when they are probably 80%+ of the player base as well s income for this game, seems very irrational to me.

Black Box.9312:

Both of those are terrible for balancing because it provides no incentive to keep playing to improve. If Dota 2 based their balancing on casual pub games every hero would be simplified to the point that their abilities would be nearly indistinguishable from one another and there would be no depth to the game and no reason to invest time and effort into it.

Again your comparing a game like DoTA 2 that is a competitive only game, to an MMO, is apples to oranges.

I already explained why you can’t just dismiss it as ‘apples to oranges’. If you’re not willing to read into that then I have no desire to speak to you further.

I was more then willing to read what you said. I indeed did read it. I simply didn’t agree with it, and personally felt your logic was unreasonable. I disagree with your reasoning behind feeling they are comparable. If your not open to discussion, why are you posting on an open forums? Simply because you refuse to discuss anything that anyone says because you disagree does not lend any more value to what your saying.

coglin.1867:

Black Box.9312:

coglin.1867:

Black Box.9312:

Regardless of whether or not there is a casual side alongside the competitive scene, the point of the matter is that you cannot balance based on the casual crowd, because it either empowers the experienced players even further by allowing them to more easily master the game, or it removes the skill curve completely because everyone will perform the same regardless of player skill.

You seem to be confusing MMOs with MoBA’s. MOBA’s are games that are completely competative with no PvE. MMOs in general, particularly GW2 has a very large portion of the player base in PvE. So to suggest that you cannot balance based on casual players when they are probably 80%+ of the player base as well s income for this game, seems very irrational to me.

Black Box.9312:

Both of those are terrible for balancing because it provides no incentive to keep playing to improve. If Dota 2 based their balancing on casual pub games every hero would be simplified to the point that their abilities would be nearly indistinguishable from one another and there would be no depth to the game and no reason to invest time and effort into it.

Again your comparing a game like DoTA 2 that is a competitive only game, to an MMO, is apples to oranges.

I already explained why you can’t just dismiss it as ‘apples to oranges’. If you’re not willing to read into that then I have no desire to speak to you further.

I was more then willing to read what you said. I indeed did read it. I simply didn’t agree with it, and personally felt your logic was unreasonable. I disagree with your reasoning behind feeling they are comparable. If your not open to discussion, why are you posting on an open forums? Simply because you refuse to discuss anything that anyone says because you disagree does not lend any more value to what your saying.

Black Box.9312:

As for the MMO vs. the MOBA, you can’t really separate the argument between the two, because the fact is that GW2 sPvP was marketed as an eSport. An eSport, by definition, is meant to be highly competitive among the most elite players. You can’t have elite players if it doesn’t take time, hard work, and dedication to master the game and you have ample opportunity to beat a veteran player from Day 1. Casual gamers are not competitive; eSports gamers are. You can’t try to appeal to two polar opposite crowds, because all you’re left with is a mess, as you can see with GW2’s current sPvP.

There, I did it for you.

That would be relevant if you had any evidence what so ever to show that the PvP community pays the bills at Anet. But I suspect that the PvE community is where the money comes from. Simply because they promote the PvP as an Esport does not define the other 2/3 of the game modes as an Esport. Game modes that no MOBA has.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Axialbloom.8109:

coglin.1867:

Axialbloom.8109:

People are actually defending the ridiculously long balance cycle, that always changes NOTHING?

Some people are okay with the long cycle to allow time to make informed changes, yes. If you feel it never changes anything, then yes, I disagree with you. I do not always personally like the changes they make, but too many posters here are arguing from the perspective that their idea of balance is the only correct one.

And what has changed since the last update? Or the one before that, last dec?

are you really going to try and argue that the meta didn’t see a shift with the rune/sigil changes? really?

How did it shift? Warriors stacking more might is a meta shift now?

coglin.1867:

That would be relevant if you had any evidence what so ever to show that the PvP community pays the bills at Anet. But I suspect that the PvE community is where the money comes from. Simply because they promote the PvP as an Esport does not define the other 2/3 of the game modes as an Esport. Game modes that no MOBA has.

I get that sPvP isn’t an area they are really invested in, the tournaments they are doing etc. are just for marketing purposes but still, they have paid employees whose work is to maintain balance in this game. I’m not sure if they themselves decided that they only need to do kitten every 6 months or so or if the balance patches are only allowed to go out every 6 months. My biggest two issues are:
1) You can’t have a balanced game if you dont do frequent changes to the balance
Balance by nature is iterative and there is never a perfect balance. Balanced game is a game that is in constant change of play and the best players are able to use their knowledge and skill to craft the strongest strategies with the available pieces. Especially in an MMO where the execution side of things is very simple and larger overarching strategy in a 3 point conquest is very limited, the amount of emphasis put on the class builds is MASSIVE. The fact that they change things up so infrequently pushes the skill ceiling and skill floor claustrophobically close together, the fact that majority of this games mechanics are poorly designed from competitive play from the get go and have little to no counterplay isn’t helping either.

2)The balance changes we get are out-of-date or just poorly thought out
Take the most recent suggested mesmer scepter changes as a concrete example of how poorly the balance team is in touch with the ‘PvP scene’ if you can call it that. PU mesmer is a build that is generally unfun to play competitively because you have very little to no chance to show your skill over the other player. The build relies extremely heavily on negating counterplay via grossly overpowered stealth mechanic that is only remedied by the fact that you can’t contest points while stealthed. The suggested changes will heavily buff this build, taking even more of the agency away from the player and encouraging the mesmer player to just spawn more AI controlled units to do the hard work. There is no skill required in this kind of strategy and it’s extremely unfun to play against too.

Another great example of poor game design regards PvP is condition spamming. Autoattacks that apply condition stacks constantly without consequence removes any skill or thinking required regards the whole condition mechanic. There’s no timing, there’s no thinking in applying conditions, just press 1 and let the conditions fly. To remedy this they condition removal (or counterplay removal like stealth, evade, warrior stances) has to be available in mass for any build that wishes to be viable in PvP because otherwise it will get destroyed by a player pressing 1. That’s the simplified theory at least. Stuff like mesmer staff clones, engineer turrets or the new scepter clones are a whole next level of awful design. The player itself can be completely away from the harm and the AI controlled units do the 1 pressing for them, completely negating any meaningful decisions, skill and strategy from both players. I have no idea who came up with this stuff initially or if it’s all because of PvE and PvP can’t be balanced separately (because “it might confuse players and they might stop playing entirely”) or what but it’s a really kitten shame how poorly the PvP mechanics are designed and balanced. Conditions aren’t even viable for 99% of the PvE so I have no idea why conditions have to be so awfully designed in PvP.

PS. A bit rambly and ranty post but read the first point at least if anything