Guild Wars 2

To be honest, I’m a bit of a fan of the idea of using torches as weapons. They have a cool fantasy about them and I love the look of Rodgort and have been looking for an excuse to craft it for a while now. However, the reality is that torches are probably the most underwhelming and least used off-hand weapons in the game. I also hardly ever see people use torches in any builds in any areas of the game, save for the odd mesmer in wvw (I don’t play PvP much so I’m not sure how much it is used there).

What surprises me the most though, is that after two years of playing GW2, Anet has still failed to balance what could easily be called the weakest and least-used offhand weapon set in the game and make them more viable. I was hoping to see torch changes for this upcoming feature patch, but none were mentioned, though the mesmer torch was indirectly made more viable thanks to mesmer scepter buffs (because scepter condition builds have become more viable, having a condition afflicting offhand makes sense). But Guardian and ranger torch skills have very little usefulness and are still in desperate need of some reworking.

For guardians, torches offer an unnecessary extra source of burning, which is pointless in group play thanks to virtue of justice, and other classes like elementalists easily applying endless amounts of burning as well (it doesn’t stack either so it’s an immediate dps loss in group play if you rely on burning for damage). It also offers an unreliable group condition removal skill with an excessively long cast time, where the guardian has much easier to use and more reliable alternatives that can be cast instantly and don’t interrupt their dps. The damage of cleansing flame isn’t even enough to warrant it as a damage skill, because using it would actually lower your overall dps because of its low base damage and long cast time.

For rangers, the torch only really offers burning, which in theory would be great for a condition build, but the ranger lacks any condition-focussed, main-hand weapons to pair it with (Axe doesn’t apply damage conditions, and the sword only applies poison). Also, no ranger in their right mind would use a torch over the far superior warhorn, which offers them and their allies fury, might and swiftness with a good up time. The only real positive that the ranger torch has going for it, is that it gives the ranger access to a fire field, but that on its own isn’t enough to make up for its shortfalls.

I’m just really confused as to why torches have been neglected so much. Why with all the balance changes that have come and gone, have torches always been pushed to the side and ignored? Why has their underwhelming lack of usefulness never been addressed? It’s just a bit dumbfounding to me…

Perhaps I am missing something here, that someone can enlighten me about.

If you think about a torch, and were designing it for a weapon what would you have it do? Probably burning. And burning in this game limits the weapon to mostly condition builds, which not too many people use, especially on the classes that can use torch.

Also the super popular professions like warrior don’t use torch, so the mesmers/rangers (two of the most rare classes in wvw imo, and maybe engi) have the weapon but only if they run condis. There aren’t too many people that run condi rangers at the moment, and even condi mesmers are pretty rare for the time being, I bet we’ll see a ton more torches after the torment on AA :P.

Rocketmist.5436:

If you think about a torch, and were designing it for a weapon what would you have it do? Probably burning. And burning in this game limits the weapon to mostly condition builds, which not too many people use, especially on the classes that can use torch.

Also the super popular professions like warrior don’t use torch, so the mesmers/rangers (two of the most rare classes in wvw imo, and maybe engi) have the weapon but only if they run condis. There aren’t too many people that run condi rangers at the moment, and even condi mesmers are pretty rare for the time being, I bet we’ll see a ton more torches after the torment on AA :P.

I actually think the mesmer torch is a nice guidepost to how creative Anet can actually be with torches. Here you have a weapon that offers creative play styles with conditions, illusions and stealth, with the only reason it wasn’t used much probably being the lack of a good main hand condition damage dealer to pair it with, which was now fixed with the upcoming scepter changes. I don’t see why guardian and ranger torches can’t see some similarly creative approaches.

As for class popularity, if you make the weapons more viable, you make the classes more viable and thus more popular. I don’t see a lack of class popularity being a good excuse for not fixing broken or useless weapon mechanics. In fact, I see it as being the exact opposite; a good reason to fix them.

The mesmer torch has one really nice skill (Blind, stealth, and burn all in one) and one skill that is just clone fodder because of how weak it is. You never really see classes other than mesmer use torches, though, so that alone tells you how much love they need.

Torch is absolutely fine on ranger. I run axe/dagger and sword/torch on most condition builds that deal mpre with regen than shortbow spamming. It gets a lot of mileage out of Balthazar runes and offhand training. Axe is a viable mainhand condition and hybrid weapon, as splitblade is such a strong condition burst skill, but it works fine with sword, another hybrid weapon as well. It’s strongest on regen bunker based builds.

The main issue is that most condition ranger builds prefer offhand dagger for the extra evade, and it synergies well with shortbow and sword om spirit and trap builds.

For mesmer they just need to improve the aiming of the 5 skills projectile, other than that it’s the Mesmer’s strongest offhand.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

For guardians, torches offer an unnecessary extra source of burning, which is pointless in group play thanks to virtue of justice, and other classes like elementalists easily applying endless amounts of burning as well (it doesn’t stack either so it’s an immediate dps loss in group play if you rely on burning for damage). It also offers an unreliable group condition removal skill with an excessively long cast time, where the guardian has much easier to use and more reliable alternatives that can be cast instantly and don’t interrupt their dps. The damage of cleansing flame isn’t even enough to warrant it as a damage skill, because using it would actually lower your overall dps because of its low base damage and long cast time.

The primary use for Cleansing Flame (Torch #5) is the supportive condition cleanse, the damage is entirely secondary. The only problem I have with it at the moment is that Cleansing Flame has a range that makes it extremely clunky to use. It’s a very powerful skill otherwise.

Can’t really agree with anything you’ve said…especially the ranger stuff.

Torch is actually better than people give it credit for on all 3 classes that can use it. Guardian torch 4 hits like a truck when thrown, mesmer torch 4 provides a blind, a burn, stealth, and a blast finisher all in one, and ranger torch is great for condition builds because of the high burning uptime you can achieve with it, especially when paired with mainhand axe. Granted, some of the skills could be improved a bit (i.e. cleansing flame), but they’re in a better spot than, say, guardian shield [cough cough].

Ranger torch is not that unpopular, axe/dagger and sword/torch conditions is quite good. That said, it could do with a buff. I’ll start a thread on the ranger forum discussing that.

Ranger and mesmer torch arent, unpopular at all, in fact theyre quite common.

Rocketmist.5436:

If you think about a torch, and were designing it for a weapon what would you have it do? Probably burning. And burning in this game limits the weapon to mostly condition builds, which not too many people use, especially on the classes that can use torch.

Also the super popular professions like warrior don’t use torch, so the mesmers/rangers (two of the most rare classes in wvw imo, and maybe engi) have the weapon but only if they run condis. There aren’t too many people that run condi rangers at the moment, and even condi mesmers are pretty rare for the time being, I bet we’ll see a ton more torches after the torment on AA :P.

What game are you playing ‘cause it’s clearly not Guild Wars 2 if you’re saying no one runs conditions. And condi mesmer rare in wvw? Seriously I’d rather play your game instead.

Guardian torch 4 isnt bad, in a full dps build it can hit for 5k and can be timed to land at the same time as shield of wrath/smite condition to almost 1 shot people who dont pay attention. Better players will see it coming from your buffs and dodge/block but in lower ranked matches it can be fun. The 5 ability is odd though, it would be nice if it was made something more dps orientated, since most support guards seem to run shield/focus anyways

To be honest, Guardian Torch as a whole is pretty good. 4 is one of the strongest-scaling power attacks in the game (on the throw) and can be timed so you also cause a tick of burning. 5 is an amazing ability to cleanse conditions, hitting fast, often and in a cone.

It’s more Ranger and Mesmer torch which is an issue. Mesmer is so/so since 4 is very very good but 5 is one of if not the single worst skill a Mesmer has. Ranger I don’t know much about only I’ve yet to see a single ranger wield one. :S

Carpboy.7145:

Ranger and mesmer torch arent, unpopular at all, in fact theyre quite common.

I honestly never see rangers carrying around torches. Maybe I’m missing something, or maybe I’m just not looking for it, but when I do see a ranger with an offhand it’s usually a warhorn.

Sube Dai.8496:

Can’t really agree with anything you’ve said…especially the ranger stuff.

Would you care to elaborate? I’m all for constructive advice and if I’m saying something wrong, I have no issues with people helping me see things from an alternative point of view, but, if you just say you don’t agree and not why, it isn’t really helpful. X__x

Carighan.6758:

To be honest, Guardian Torch as a whole is pretty good. 4 is one of the strongest-scaling power attacks in the game (on the throw) and can be timed so you also cause a tick of burning. 5 is an amazing ability to cleanse conditions, hitting fast, often and in a cone.

It’s more Ranger and Mesmer torch which is an issue. Mesmer is so/so since 4 is very very good but 5 is one of if not the single worst skill a Mesmer has. Ranger I don’t know much about only I’ve yet to see a single ranger wield one. :S

Torch 4 for guardian does good damage, but my main issue with it is the long cooldown the throw induces. If they took the 50% cooldown penalty away, that would be better, but as it is right now, the 22 second cooldown is just too high for what is arguably pretty mediocre single target burst damage, which is quite highly televised.

I also don’t agree that five is an amazing ability to cleanse conditions. With how allied players tend to move, trying to aim it down on them can become very difficult unless they stand still. I’ve used it a number of times before for that purpose, and even when it seems to go over allies it doesn’t always remove conditions. I’m not sure if there’s a hit box issue or something, but it just seems very difficult to remove conditions from allies with it.

I’d say it’s much more practical to use the guardians other, much easier to aim condition cleansers (like purging flames or virtue of resolve traited) which also have little to no cast time, compared to cleansing flame’s 4 second channel time. Maybe if the cast time for cleansing flame was cut in half and the aoe for condition cleansing was increased (just for allies, not enemies), the practical use would be much greater.

In pvp rangers used torch because the burning. But the projectile is slow, recharge is big and its just 1 condition

Love my guardian torch. 4 does great damage if you don’t need the burn. 5 is great people don’t realize it does some damage on mobs along with 2 burns, and if allies around removes conditions like crazy. Dunno how torch is so under rated. Switch between it and my focus all the time

Sorry but you say axe mainhand does not have condition damaged based skills? #2 gives 5 bleeds and if traited your AA can give additional bleeds on 66% crit chance but yea i choose warhorn over torch every time.