Guild Wars 2

Raven.9603:

one interesting way to allow DS to “scale” to multiple enemies could be to have life force function as a timer.

eg, a full bar of life force is X seconds in death shroud regardless of how much damage you take.

to balance this, they would probably have to lower the amount of time you can spend in death shroud per fight compared to now, but it would make DS much stronger in situations where the necro was focused by multiple people.

This could be a very interesting possibility, which would also "fix"the problem that DeathShroud is designed for a Tank/DPS/Healer paradigm.
Defenses in GW2 are supposed to be active and short not passive absorption of damage during prolonged periods.

DS with the same cd, total immunity and something like 20%/second LF degen would make DS a much more active defense.

The low duration of DS would also be an excuse to allow things like targeted dark path since entering DS would become a much bigger defensive trade-off than it is right now.

Raven.9603:

Kiriakulos.1690:

Necro’s have attrition as their core combat philosophy, but DeathShroud is anything but an attrition mechanic, as any experienced Necro can attest, when you get pulled into combat battle becomes a ticking clock, the longer the fight lasts the less likely the Necro is to win.

This forum habit of taking class descriptions or words used by devs once in a forum post or video as biblical unchanging statements of design intent drive me nuts. how do you really know what anet wants for necro’s “core combat philosophy”?

In this case, some necros have been clinging to the word “attrition” like rangers were clinging to the phrase “unparalleled archers.”

and how are you defining “attrition?”

suppose you enter a fight as a necro:

• you open with DS for the fearlock and burning proc and immediatly drop out to load condis on the enemy.
• enemy somehow survives, gets you to 60% health, you use your heal to get back to 90% health and pop your DS.
• enemy depletes you down to 20% of your DS bar despite your full condi build nuking him for 2k lifeblasts every second.

(timeout: IF you killed your enemy at this point, how is not because of attrition? your 1.5 healthbars outlasted his healthbar)

• you drop deathshroud, pop spectral armor, and by the time your at 60% health again you heal up 90% and go back into a 100% deathshroud
• enemy depletes you down to 20% of your DS bar despite your full condi build nuking him for 2k lifeblasts every second.

(timeout: IF you kill your enemy anytime up to this point, how is it not because of attrition? your 2.5 healthbars outlasted his healthbar.)

• you drop deathshroud, enemy takes you from ~90% of your health down to 20%. But wait! You had Last Gasp traited! at 50% spectral armor popped automajically so before he can get off that killing blow, you jump back into a nearly 100% DS.

(timeout: IF you kill your enemy anytime up to this point, how is it not because of attrition? your 3.5 healthbars outlasted his healthbar.)

---

I think you get the point. Often, Necro’s win fights because their innate class mechanic allows them to outlast their opponents innate healing mechanics. Sometimes, enemies will specialize in healing or damage avoidance mechanics, and they can manage to outlast the necro.

Almost every necro fight is a fight of attrition for your enemy, because they have to outlast your DS(s). Sometimes they can and sometimes they cant. What is the problem with that?

Allowing necros to heal too much in deathshroud is a slippery road, and IMO (as someone who plays a necro fairly often), any changes that improve healing in DS should also come with hard nerf to life force totals.

That’s not it at all. You’re not taking into account any of our weaknesses like lack of stability and long recharges. Stuns/knockdowns or just interrupts are a form of attrition as they will wear down your skill output. Stealth is a form of attrition since it can wait out a death shroud and stay clear of damage.

Practical real-play scenarios will show what real attrition looks like. (this is taking into account our opponents skills, not just ours)

The problems came with damage overflow.
Make damage overflow be a % of the remaining hp or a minimum % of the damage dealt if the damage is less the the % of remaining hp.

iow. Low hp will still be punished and high hp will still see a big part depleting.

1st world problem solved.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ragion.2831:

^^^^This, so much of this. I personally havent used a healing build so i can’t verify the number but it definitely makes sense. This is what necros should be doing in dungeons for the party, healing. Guardians apply the boons and necros heal the party and cleanse with Transfusion and other traits, staff and well of blood . Even otherwells that will keep the party alive like well of darkness are useful. Any necro doing this are the last to die when things go wrong, i know that is the case for me.

Or the Guardian can handle the boons, healing, and cleansing simultaneously. Because, you know, he can. Then you can take someone else instead of the necro.

Warriors may be able to go immune to damage for shorter periods of time, but they also are capable of regaining health at a pretty good rate while doing so. Necros may be able to prevent more damage in a duel (less against multiple foes), but their health does not replenish during that time or, for that matter, replenish well when not using death shroud. As such, between a Warrior and a necro both playing an attrition game, the Warrior will always win. This is also true of Guardians, Eles, and Rangers. Engineers, Thieves, and Mesmers don’t typically have high healing builds, but SA thieves can play attrition games with the best of them.

I know about guardian boons, but healing and cleansing? they have like one proper party cleanse with a 1 minute cd, necros have party cleanses all over the place even as a utility passive with a1200 radius, guardians can’t heal as much as necros, check the build editor. Of all the classes necro benefits the most out of rune of the monk.

For the longest time, i believed the warriors vs necro thing but lately i realized it may not be as bad as that. In PvP Its taken me months to finally be comfortable fighting a warrior. It may take longer than a thief to kill a decent one but it does happen. Yes depending on the build, necros can’t take that much damage from multiple enemies and if you try to spec to do it, you damage suffers. With those irritating condi thieves, i find plague signet to be a life saver.

First off, if you’re taking someone into a dungeon as a dedicated healer, you’re doing it wrong. The entire game is set up around that role being unecessary.

Second, Guardians still do the healing and condition clearing better than necros.

Compare the following:
Plague Signet/Unholy Martyr (combined because they can’t work together) vs. Bow of Truth. Both are periodic removals of conditions, 1 condition from 1 ally at a time. However, Bow of Truth actually removes the condition and, coming in Tuesday’s patch, also has a decent AoE heal attached to it that goes where you want.

Save Yourselves vs. Well of Power: Both have similar cooldowns and are stunbreaks and both cleanse conditions from allies. However, Save Yourselves is an instant total cleanse on allies (Guardian isn’t so lucky) and a ton of boons for the Guardian. Well of Power removes at maximum 6 conditions, but requires allies to stay in the affected area if they missed the initial cast.

Then compare Purging Flames to…wait, Necros are out of party cleanses. We haven’t even gotten to Pure of Voice, which turns fun shouts such as Stand Your Ground into condition cleanses as well.

Getting into healing? Guardians can fart out healing too. Empower (staff 4) alone out-heals Transfusion in HP/sec. 1500+1.0 healing power every 20 seconds opposed to 2628+1.8 healing power every 40 seconds (breaks down to 1314+.9healing power every 20 seconds). While the necro did deal some AoE damage with that heal, the Guardian pumped out 120 stacks of Might with his. Traited, the disparity becomes even worse because Path of Midnight is only a 15% reduction in cooldown while Two-handed Mastery is 20%.

Shall I keep going? I can break down every bit of it. If you think Necros should get a spot in dungeon parties due to their healing capabilities, I can shatter that delusion more thoroughly than a Mesmer shatters illusions.

Dirame.8521:

Kiriakulos.1690:

I am 100% arguing about sustain. Sustain is what we lost in exchange for DS but DS doesn’t work within GW2 combat design due to the reasons I stated. Attrition is our combat design according to the devs- people who are responsible for how the game should work- but since we don’t have sustain, attrition is an impossibility, once again for the reasons I stated.

If your arguments are not about why Necro sustain is lacking or why you believe it isn’t, I have no idea what interest you have in this discussion.

Gaining/Losing Deathshroud IS the Necro’s attrition mechanic. Instead of gaining health like other classes, they gain DS mostly.

They can generate a lot of healing outside of it but, DS is DS for a reason.

so much wisdom O_O. Some of you guys really clamouring for warrior type regen while in DS, would you give warrior DS?

Dranor, the stats that give healing power can also give condi damage or direct damage. Im not talking dedicated healer, im talking a necro more concerned about the entire party than just him/herself.

Ragion.2831:

Dranor, the stats that give healing power can also give condi damage or direct damage. Im not talking dedicated healer, im talking a necro more concerned about the entire party than just him/herself.

Great. The Guardian can use the exact same stats, provide similar damage, while still providing massively superior support.

Necros are bottom-tier for PvE for a reason. Almost nothing in PvE plays to their strengths. Now, why we’re even discussing this in a thread about necro sustain is beyond me, because sustain in PvE is not a problem for anyone at all.

Now, if you think Necros want Warrior-like regen, imagine if when a Warrior used any stance, all of his healing was negated until the stance ended. What do you think would happen to the Warrior? Does that answer your question as to why necros want at least traited self-healing to work in death shroud?

Don’t necros already have traited heal in DS? When it comes to cleanses, there is no argument, because both guardian and necros are two sides of the same coin. Most of necros party cleanses are passive, which are separated from its own cleanses, and guards is instant. One isnt better than the other. Although, when it comes to cleanses you cannot tell me guard has more overall. Necro also has more party wide healing abilities, you may not like it, but they do. When it comes to making the choice of damage vs survivabilty, necro and guard are glassy when they try to spec for damage, the only difference is guard has the blocks, necro has DS which ultimately can take more sustained damage than guardians blocks. Why do you think the meditation build is so popular if that wasn’t true? what i find really laughable is most think it is heal in death shroud that necros need (which we already have btw), Its protection up time, an escape with no requirements and a fairly short cooldown as well as a ds stun breaker. That is it. We now have two out of the three although, one has to be moved in our trait line and the escape hopefully we will get soon.

If you still don’t get it let me ask you this, what do think is the most dangerous thing about condi mesmers and thieves? to necros It isnt that they can apply conditions because if that was it, we would just transfer it and that would be that. Its that they stealth or blink and it can be difficult landing the transfer in time. Escapes. That is it.

For both of them, it’s because they can drop target and so many of our skills require a target. Thieves are worse because you can’t just hit an illusion instead. It’s not because they can run and blink. Necros can function quite well without those, as evidenced by Warriors and Guardians both being sustain monsters when specced for it without having stealth or blinks. Guardians, like necros, really can’t run away from a fight well, but they can survive quite well.

And yes, Necros have one trait that can heal them in death shroud. This is also healing that only works in death shroud. Why self-healing traits need to function in death shroud is both for sustain and also because it’s terrible design to have one class mechanic negate another.

For another Warrior parallel, what if you couldn’t revive anyone if you had full adrenaline? How do you think the Tactics line would be looked at then? It’s already considered pretty lame due to the terrible minors, but if Adrenaline actually prevented you from getting even the small benefit the line grants, would not the Warriors be saying that is horrid design? You know what else? They’d be right.

Okay, now onto your lie that “Necros have more group heal abilities than Guardians.”

Necro:
Mark of Blood
Well of Blood
Signet of Vampirism (included for completeness sake, although it has additional stipulations beyond being within range).
Transfusion
Deathly Invigoration
Renewing Blast
Ritual of Life

7 methods to heal allies.

Guardians:
Virtue of Resolve active
Orb of Light (staff 2) and Detonate Orb of Light
Empower (staff 4)
Faithful Strike (Mace 1, strike 3)
Symbol of Faith (Mace 2)
Shield of Absorption detonation (Shield 5)
Light of Judgement (Trident 1)

Hmm, not even out of the weapons and profession mechanic and already matching the necro’s total group healing methods. Let’s keep going, though.

Healing Breeze
Sanctuary
Merciful Intervention
“Hold the Line!”
Spirit Bow (Command)
Heal Area (Tome of Courage 1)
Protective Spirit (Tome of Courage 3)
Light of Deliverance (Tome of Courage 5, strongest heal in the game)

Hmm, those are just skills. We’re already at 15 methods. On to traits!

Selfless Daring
Protective Reviver*
Pure of Heart
Writ of the Merciful (turns 4 weapon skills and two traits into party healing, increases healing done by Symbol of Faith. This can be considered 6 methods of party healing if you’re getting nit-picky)
Battle Presence

Of special note is also Inspired Virtue which improves the healing of Virtue of Resolve’s active. So, even by conservative counts, Guardian has 19 methods of party healing and one additional method of healing a single ally. That’s nearly triple what necros have.

On an unrelated note, it seems the forum’s spoiler tags are broken. Tried to condense that down to be less wall-o-text.

Ragion.2831:

so much wisdom O_O. Some of you guys really clamouring for warrior type regen while in DS, would you give warrior DS?

What is this comparison?
What makes warriors so strong is their great sustain combined with good mitigation acceptable mobility and high damage.
Take the first 3 away and slap DS in it’s place and the first thing that would happen was “Warriors no longer wanted in dungeons”.
If a warriors damage mitigation stopped healing signet from functioning they’d fall off PvP as well.

Why?
Because it goes against GW2 game design.
Mobility/mitigation/recovery combined with control/support and DPS, not tanks and healers. DeathShroud is a tank mechanic, a very questionable one at that since it stops healing.

Mid point bunkers in spvp and frontliners in wvw barf out aoe heals like they’re going out of style, none of which will affect a necro in ds.

Everything in GW2 is balanced around team fights making synergy the top priority. Necros missing out on the most common form of support drastically limits the synergy they can have with other classes, which naturally limits their viability.

I don’t think all the self healing skills should work in deathshroud.. a minion master is already a pain in the backside with its health generation. I would say the minor ones would be fine like heal on hit and well siphons as a start

unlucky.9285:

I don’t think all the self healing skills should work in deathshroud.. a minion master is already a pain in the backside with its health generation. I would say the minor ones would be fine like heal on hit and well siphons as a start

Minion master only exists maybe in spvp.

unlucky.9285:

I don’t think all the self healing skills should work in deathshroud.. a minion master is already a pain in the backside with its health generation. I would say the minor ones would be fine like heal on hit and well siphons as a start

I would agree with this. Start small and then adjust accordingly.

Make one or two of the basic siphons work in deathshroud and then evaluate how this is next patch and adjustments can be made.

I’d rather they made it so, I can receive heals that my allies use . ):

Not all necros, use siphons, making that a bad place to start for general use.

Allow a necro to benfit from ally healing, and maybe something of their own. But start with group play. Since it’s group synergy we suffer in.

Taygus.4571:

I’d rather they made it so, I can receive heals that my allies use . ):

Not all necros, use siphons, making that a bad place to start for general use.

Allow a necro to benfit from ally healing, and maybe something of their own. But start with group play. Since it’s group synergy we suffer in.

On the contrary, self-traited healing is the best place to start. That way, the class doesn’t counter its own mechanics.

Yeah and the siphons are small enough so that it shouldn’t be overpowered… remember traiting into blood magic will mean giving up another line of traits – soul reaping or spite etc. I think it would be a reasonable change.

Avigrus.2871:

Yeah and the siphons are small enough so that it shouldn’t be overpowered… remember traiting into blood magic will mean giving up another line of traits – soul reaping or spite etc. I think it would be a reasonable change.

LOL.
Currently, traiting into Blood Magic seems like such a foreign concept to so many builds that most people don’t even take into account what traits they’d lose to gain life siphoning.
Good show blood magic, good show.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Avigrus.2871:

Yeah and the siphons are small enough so that it shouldn’t be overpowered… remember traiting into blood magic will mean giving up another line of traits – soul reaping or spite etc. I think it would be a reasonable change.

LOL.
Currently, traiting into Blood Magic seems like such a foreign concept to so many builds that most people don’t even take into account what traits they’d lose to gain life siphoning.
Good show blood magic, good show.

Pretty much this, people act like if necros siphons worked in DS they’d still be able to have massive fear chains, or chill of death, Deathly Perception and Close to Death along with siphons. If they buffed siphons to work in DS, condi builds would give up Reaper’s Protection, or Soul Marks, and power builds would have to give up points in Spite, or Soul Reaping. People seem to think all necro builds to good damage. The only reason is because the best necro builds are pretty much class cannons. Either using zerkers or carrion, and traiting deep into at least 2 of the 3 damaging trees. If necros actually had a good GM trait in Death Magic for non MM builds, or if Blood Magic was worth going into at all. The damage would be brought down to the levels of other classes.

Overall, the problem with necros is that there are no ways to be tanky, and deal good damage, or have good group support. Eles, Warriors, Thieves, Engis, and Guards can all do at least 2 of those 3. Necros can deal a lot of damage, but don’t get either of the other two. Furthermore, most classes could do more (or at least as much) damage than a necro, but they don’t so they can have some semblance of surivability (whether that is through escapes, invulns, or sustain).

zapv.8051:

Overall, the problem with necros is that there are no ways to be tanky, and deal good damage, or have good group support. Eles, Warriors, Thieves, Engis, and Guards can all do at least 2 of those 3. Necros can deal a lot of damage, but don’t get either of the other two. Furthermore, most classes could do more (or at least as much) damage than a necro, but they don’t so they can have some semblance of surivability (whether that is through escapes, invulns, or sustain).

We can definitely have All three of these in one build. We can easily be tanky with good damage, and support out group with condi removal and boos strips.

Wait, so you suggesting that most profession do less damage then the necro, for the sake of survivability? Right after you state that necros cannot do good damage and be tanky? Seems a bit contradictory doesn’kitten

Coldtart.4785:

Mid point bunkers in spvp and frontliners in wvw barf out aoe heals like they’re going out of style, none of which will affect a necro in ds.

Everything in GW2 is balanced around team fights making synergy the top priority. Necros missing out on the most common form of support drastically limits the synergy they can have with other classes, which naturally limits their viability.

This.

My guardian in wvw has quite a bit of cleric’s gear. So often a necromancer can’t benefit from it in death force. No dodge heals, empower, staff2, regen from “Hold the Line”, heals from water rune. And when I run mace (a rarity in wvw but I like it) they even get less healing.

dancingmonkey.4902:

zapv.8051:

Overall, the problem with necros is that there are no ways to be tanky, and deal good damage, or have good group support. Eles, Warriors, Thieves, Engis, and Guards can all do at least 2 of those 3. Necros can deal a lot of damage, but don’t get either of the other two. Furthermore, most classes could do more (or at least as much) damage than a necro, but they don’t so they can have some semblance of surivability (whether that is through escapes, invulns, or sustain).

We can definitely have All three of these in one build. We can easily be tanky with good damage, and support out group with condi removal and boos strips.

Wait, so you suggesting that most profession do less damage then the necro, for the sake of survivability? Right after you state that necros cannot do good damage and be tanky? Seems a bit contradictory doesn’kitten

LOL, now I begin to question if your seriously trolling me. What build gives us good sustain, good group support, and good damage. The magical 6/6/6/6/6 build. Oh wait that wouldn’t even do it because necros still wouldn’t have good group support in comparison with eles, guards, or even warriors. Our aoe condition removal is well below that of other classes. While boon stripping is technically group support because it allows a team to kill enemy bunkers which increases their damage, it won’t get you that far. It might give you a small window to kill the enemy teams bunker, but compared to constant aoe might stacking, protection, fury, etc. it doesn’t have the same impact.

Other professions sacrifice some damage to get survivability because they can go full zerker and still have extraordinary sustain, or go celestial and still do good damage. Necros cannot do this. If a necro starts to sacrifice damage for survivability they become useless because their damage output drops well below other classes, while still not being that tanky. For instance, if a power necro decided to spec into blood magic, or death magic to gain defensive stats and traits to prevent themselves from being killed as easily they would still be far easier to kill than a hambow warrior, d/d ele, or s/d thief. Furthermore, they wouldn’t be doing as much damage or giving group support to the team. For that reason, necros in pvp spec almost purely into damage because a necro speccing for sustain is wasting stats.

While this might be a problem with the current meta of might stacking celestial build, and zerker sustain builds more than the necro class itself, a few innate problems with the class have been visible since day 1:
1: Necros don’t have good instant cast escapes (blinks/stealth, invulnerability (mist form/stances/gearshield), or stability. Every other class has at least one of these on their utilities.
2: Necros HP sustain is well below other classes. While this is partially intentional, the class still lacks a way to regen their huge hp pool making it very difficult to survive in prolonged fights, and team fights.
3: Necros lack anywhere near the levels of group support other classes have. This is supposed to come through aoe weakness, vulnerability and poison, but because of aoe cleansing, and the strength of other classes boon application it is sub par.

While I realize you think I want the class to be easy mode auto win faceroll, I’m just trying to get changes to the class that allow it to stand up to the other classes in this game. Other classes have weaknesses, but they can mitigate those weaknesses through smart choice of traits/skills. Necros currently lack the tools to do that which has made them subpar in 2 of 3 gamemodes since launch.

zapv.8051:

. What build gives us good sustain, good group support, and good damage.

D/D well build, with protection on wells. AoE heals, blinds, condi removal to boons, enemy boon corruption, dark field, oh, and did i mention those are all AoE?

It is what I front line on as a commander on JQ. Your welcome to swear it is a 6/6/6/6/6 build if you like. I feel for you if you cannot stand up to other professions in the game, I feel bad for you. You have our sympathies from those who can. it just pains me to see you claim the profession cannot do things that several of us accomplish on a daily basis.

I am all for solving some issues. I have offered a great deal of suggestions for DS changes myself. I have also expressed how I feel the CD on some of the wells could use a reduction. As well, I do not feel you want the profession to be “easy mode face roll”, I just disagree when you complain as if the profession can do nothing at all, with your unrealistic exaggeration.

dancingmonkey.4902:

zapv.8051:

. What build gives us good sustain, good group support, and good damage.

D/D well build, with protection on wells. AoE heals, blinds, condi removal to boons, enemy boon corruption, dark field, oh, and did i mention those are all AoE?

Sure, this build has decent team support, but you still won’t have as much group support as a guard or ele, lower tankiness then most builds due to one stunbreak, and much lower damage than every member of the average pvp team except the bunker guard (even that I’m unsure of). Even then, your relying on people standing in your wells to get thier effects. Good players won’t stand there and get all thier boons corrupted. They won’t stand in well of darkness while auto attacking. Your teammates will also have to stand in your wells to get their effects, leaving you wide open to getting dps’d.

So? No profession does have the group support of guardian or ele. Although your are incorrect to suggest I am less tanky then an ele in that build.

Good players have to enter my wells to get to me, get through the choke, or get on to the point. If not, I can swap to my other weapon and range them. Why is anyone more likely to be hit out of wells then in them. At melee they will be in a pulsing blind, at range, I can dodge whether I am in a well or not. As well, in WvW the often barrel through your wells, doing the work for you.

I understand what your trying to sugest here, the problem is that what you mention applies to 5-6 out of 8 professions, and some folks talk as if it is just us.

dancingmonkey.4902:

So? No profession does have the group support of guardian or ele. Although your are incorrect to suggest I am less tanky then an ele in that build.

Good players have to enter my wells to get to me, get through the choke, or get on to the point. If not, I can swap to my other weapon and range them. Why is anyone more likely to be hit out of wells then in them. At melee they will be in a pulsing blind, at range, I can dodge whether I am in a well or not. As well, in WvW the often barrel through your wells, doing the work for you.

I understand what your trying to sugest here, the problem is that what you mention applies to 5-6 out of 8 professions, and some folks talk as if it is just us.

No, what I’m suggesting most certainly doesn’t pertain to 5 or 6 out of 8 professions. Besides maybe ranger what I’m saying is necros are the only class that has to spec into only one of the 3 things in this game to be effective. Every other class can spec into support/damage, damage/survivability, or support/survivability, and be effective at both of those things. Mesmer have survivability through escapes and damage through shatter. Thieves are similar, but with more dodges. Warriors have damage on hammer and longbow, survivability through stances, and support through group fire fields and aoe stun. Engi has damage through conditions, and tankiness through silly amounts of heals. Elementalist can do any combination of damage/survivability/support. Guardians are the baseline survivability/support. Necros can’t do any combination of those 3 things better than other classes. The only thing we can do better than other classes is damage, but that requires another player to babysit us because we can’t survive on our own.

dancingmonkey.4902:

zapv.8051:

. What build gives us good sustain, good group support, and good damage.

D/D well build, with protection on wells. AoE heals, blinds, condi removal to boons, enemy boon corruption, dark field, oh, and did i mention those are all AoE?

It is what I front line on as a commander on JQ. Your welcome to swear it is a 6/6/6/6/6 build if you like. I feel for you if you cannot stand up to other professions in the game, I feel bad for you. You have our sympathies from those who can. it just pains me to see you claim the profession cannot do things that several of us accomplish on a daily basis.

I am all for solving some issues. I have offered a great deal of suggestions for DS changes myself. I have also expressed how I feel the CD on some of the wells could use a reduction. As well, I do not feel you want the profession to be “easy mode face roll”, I just disagree when you complain as if the profession can do nothing at all, with your unrealistic exaggeration.

Well, that build was just nerfed…

Though you may see it different since in WvW players rarely would stand 10 seconds in your bloodwell. But for spvp that was definitly a nerf (not that any necromancer would run a bunker build in spvp).

Mitigation has never been equal to full avoidance in any pvp game.

Look at WoW. There’s a reason mages dominated all ranged classes, and that’s because if you can completely avoid damage with kiting/CC tools it’s much better than eating 50-70% of it with only 30-40% removed via facetank mechanisms.