Guild Wars 2

Healing Signet is a hot topic, and has been for several months. Recently, the the devs shared their opinion on Healing Signet with us, stating that a decrease to the passive healing of Healing Signet would make it inferior to Healing Surge.

If such a simple and direct comparison was appropriate and correct, it would be hard to argue that Healing Signet should be nerfed. This is not the case.

While Healing Signet does not heal much more than Healing Surge in the span of 30 seconds, there are other factors to consider, many of which have been mentioned by others, but are worth mentioning again countless times.

Healing Signet has no cast time, as it is a passive heal. If you have pvp’ed at a high level or watched high level pvp matches closely, you will notice that players occasionally get their healing skill interrupted by various forms of CC. CC’ing a heal can mean the difference between killing your opponent in 3 seconds or 15< seconds.

Healing Signet completely circumvents this counterplay.

Healing Signet is not as susceptible to poison compared to many other healing skills. Most warriors play hambow these days, and with hammer+longbow burst skills, it is relatively simple to cleanse 3 condi/10 sec, thus, it is unlikely your heal will be poisoned continuously. Active healing skills, however, can be fully poisoned if your opponent predicts your heal and poisons beforehand.

Healing Signet heals you from the moment you start taking damage. This is a huge deal. Most classes do not gain anything from their healing skill until they activate it, and even if they try to activate it, there is the possibility of getting interrupted. If your heal gets interrupted and you die, you have gained NOTHING from it. A warrior with Healing Signet will get something out of it from the moment they start taking damage!

The downside to this is that you could potentially get focused hard and get killed in a matter of 3-4 seconds, in which case Healing Signet doesn’t heal you for more than 1,5k hp Fortunately, warriors have relatively high base toughness and vitality. With plenty of access to stability, it is also hard to burst down a warrior this quickly. Or, just bring endure pain and it is very unlikely to happen.

With the above mentioned points in mind, I see no reason why Healing Signet should heal anywhere near as much as activated healing skills. When you choose Healing Signet over active heals, you choose the safe route. You are not as vulnerable to counterplays as players who use active heals. Less risk should mean less reward.

It is worrisome that Healing Signet, in its current form, even made it into the game. What troubles me more is the suggestestion of decreasing the passive by 8%, and intend to make the active strong enough to use over the passive heal. I seriously hope the devs will make the active very appealing to use in certain situations, and I also hope they will lower the passive heal amount by 20-30%. Anything above that is too great reward for a passive heal.

You don’t look at the total picture, it is the warriors ONLY way of sustain. All other classes have different skills that heal them aswel. Warriors only have that by heavily investing in a line sacrificing a lot of damage.

Now, you only need 26% poison uptime to make healing signet heal LESS than healing surge. And any good player will clean off poison and use stability or take a moment in which they can’t be interrupted to pop their heal.

Drop healing signet to 350HPS and NOBODY in his right mind would take it. Because, face it, burst heals are better than regen. Because the healing signet is immensely vulnerable to burst, if a healing signet warrior gets focused, he’ll melt. Yes, he’ll melt. Endure pain will only safe his kitten for 4s longer.

They were not going to higher the healing from the active, but make it more appealing to use it in a fight.

Drop it by 20-30% and everyone will go healing surge for roaming and defiant stance for zerging. And people using healing signet will be called nub again. Take it from an experienced warrior player. There is nothing wrong with healing signet.

ps.: HS loses healing potential aswel when you are full health and not getting damage (dodging, blocking, etc) but still fighting.

OP, these are good observations.

Prepare to be bombarded by the warrior trolls that will tell you to “learn to play”, or that it is “working as intended”, or that warriors are designed to be superior “to support casuals”, or some such nonsense.

The truth of the matter is Healing Signet is incredibly overpowered, and I’d challenge any developer to prove otherwise. Heck, even a clone-on-death Mesmer build, (you know, the ones the developers call “cheese” and feel needs to be nerfed) cannot drop a bunker warrior with HS.

Or because every other warrior healing skill is bogged down in pointless utility that warriors can get better versions of elsewhere and healing signet is the only one that just heals and heals high. Does it heal too much? I don’t 1v1 warriors enough to know. But the simple fact is warriors will always use the highest HP/s heal in their list.

Perhaps the heal interval should be lengthened so it heals every 3 seconds instead to accentuate the weakness to burst in return for the large heal rate.

I don’t have a problem with signet on warrior but when you combine signet with adrenal health also then it starts to look to much.

Still I don’t have a problem with HS HPS but the warrior can still do alot of damage with that amount of sustain.

I have a warrior that I played before the healing signet buff and warriors couldn’t sustain in a fight so you where better off bringing a thief or ele because they could stay in the fight longer to do dps. Warriors then had to go real glassy and do as much damage as they can and run away. That was how you played warrior which was more thief like back then.

They are reducing the HPS by 30 in the next patch so we have to see how it plays out. I main elementalist but I know how it was for warriors before healing signet so I can’t say honestly that it needs a very large nerf.

No it’s a garbage reduction and ANet needs to fix it tootvsweet.

We don’t need another thread describing previous arguments already made back and forth with concern to Healing Signet. Needless to say, dropping Healing Signet to anything below 350 Healing Per Second and you immediately invalidate it’s viability. Not to mention the other major issues with Healing Utilities on the warrior…

Sykper.6583:

We don’t need another thread describing previous arguments already made back and forth with concern to Healing Signet. Needless to say, dropping Healing Signet to anything below 350 Healing Per Second and you immediately invalidate it’s viability. Not to mention the other major issues with Healing Utilities on the warrior…

Yes, enough with the Healing Signet threads already. We get the picture. The devs get the picture. They acknowledged that the picture was got. Quit beating a dead horse.

Sykper.6583:

We don’t need another thread describing previous arguments already made back and forth with concern to Healing Signet. Needless to say, dropping Healing Signet to anything below 350 Healing Per Second and you immediately invalidate it’s viability. Not to mention the other major issues with Healing Utilities on the warrior…

Therefore, Signet of the Ether needs to be boosted.

HS doesn’t have ANY requirement at all and that is the issue. Compare it to SoM where you have to attack someone for it to work. HS needs some kind of requirement for heal imo.

Passive play (including pets) is what ruining it for everyone. Idk why devs push for passive play and imbalanced maps like Skyhammer so much.

Well the reason it is so powerful is simple:
1) On highest HP class
2) On one of highest armor classes
3) On class that has a lot of damage

It would be far more balanced on anything other than a warrior. I do concur that warriors need a good heal but not a big heal over time.

Bombsaway.7198:

Well the reason it is so powerful is simple:
1) On highest HP class
2) On one of highest armor classes
3) On class that has a lot of damage

It would be far more balanced on anything other than a warrior. I do concur that warriors need a good heal but not a big heal over time.

lol no it wouldn’t the HPS is high because the warrior has the highest HP. If it was on a lower HP character the HPS would most definitely be brought down accordingly. The High HP of the Warrior actually is a bad thing for the signet since it is harder to get all that HP back.

The armor of that class makes the heals more effective.

The damage output is irrelevant. The problem many people have is that it requires no investment to be that good. So you can grab damage because you don’t need gear to support the HPS of the signet. Also that it is completely passive.

oZii.2864:

The High HP of the Warrior actually is a bad thing for the signet since it is harder to get all that HP back.

Wait wait, let’s see if I am getting this right. You are saying that having higher HP is actually a bad thing because you have to heal yourself for more to get to full health? Subsequently then, vitality is actually a negative stat that you should avoid at all costs, cuz you know… it makes it harder for you to top yourself.

My mind is blown.

oZii.2864:

Bombsaway.7198:

Well the reason it is so powerful is simple:
1) On highest HP class
2) On one of highest armor classes
3) On class that has a lot of damage

It would be far more balanced on anything other than a warrior. I do concur that warriors need a good heal but not a big heal over time.

lol no it wouldn’t the HPS is high because the warrior has the highest HP. If it was on a lower HP character the HPS would most definitely be brought down accordingly. The High HP of the Warrior actually is a bad thing for the signet since it is harder to get all that HP back.

The armor of that class makes the heals more effective.

The damage output is irrelevant. The problem many people have is that it requires no investment to be that good. So you can grab damage because you don’t need gear to support the HPS of the signet. Also that it is completely passive.

…What?
Balance wise, high hp never justifies high HP/s.
The high base just helps more agaist burst.

Scrib.9207:

oZii.2864:

The High HP of the Warrior actually is a bad thing for the signet since it is harder to get all that HP back.

Wait wait, let’s see if I am getting this right. You are saying that having higher HP is actually a bad thing because you have to heal yourself for more to get to full health? Subsequently then, vitality is actually a negative stat that you should avoid at all costs, cuz you know… it makes it harder for you to top yourself.

My mind is blown.

Well you took that literally and ran with it?

Look at the context of what I replying to. I never said avoid vitality did I? Mind blown.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

oZii.2864:

Bombsaway.7198:

Well the reason it is so powerful is simple:
1) On highest HP class
2) On one of highest armor classes
3) On class that has a lot of damage

It would be far more balanced on anything other than a warrior. I do concur that warriors need a good heal but not a big heal over time.

lol no it wouldn’t the HPS is high because the warrior has the highest HP. If it was on a lower HP character the HPS would most definitely be brought down accordingly. The High HP of the Warrior actually is a bad thing for the signet since it is harder to get all that HP back.

The armor of that class makes the heals more effective.

The damage output is irrelevant. The problem many people have is that it requires no investment to be that good. So you can grab damage because you don’t need gear to support the HPS of the signet. Also that it is completely passive.

…What?
Balance wise, high hp never justifies high HP/s.
The high base just helps more agaist burst.

That is why it is so high. It was inline with other signets but it didn’t do anything for the warrior because it didn’t heal enough vs the amount of damage that a warrior take. That is why they bumped it up as high as they did. Why else bump up the HPS of healing signet if it was already healing the same as SOR and SOM on 2 of the lowest HP classes?

Not saying if it was right or wrong I don’t balance the game so I am not arguing that. That is why they bumped up the signet because it didn’t matter if you where in full clerics or full zerker the HPS of the signet wasn’t enough.

But technically speaking, the same passive HP/s is pretty much always better on a higher healthpool, because it almost always has more time to do its thing.

If warriors had low base hp (and that was the only change), healing signet would absolutely not be more powerful than it is now.

PS. because you edited curse you.
Warriors take less damage (before investment or with equal investment) than other classes. They are capable of taking more while not actually taking more, which again does not justify a stronger heal.

Edited for clarity

P Fun Daddy.1208:

But technically speaking, the same passive HP/s is pretty much always better on a higher healthpool, because it almost always has more time to do its thing.

If warriors had low base hp (and that was the only change), healing signet would absolutely not be more powerful than it is now.

PS. because you edited curse you.
Warriors take less damage (before investment or with equal investment) than other classes. They are capable of taking more, not actually taking more which again does not justify a stronger heal.

lol yea sorry for the edit.

Thats true but Warriors also don’t have any other outside source of healing by default unless you go deeper into the vitality tree.

Look at Elementalist and Guardians who have the ability to heal before investment that isn’t a 6 skill. So while the Warrior takes less damage before investment comparable to a Guardian the Guardian also has inherent sustain to recover that HP if no trait points are ever used same with an Elementalist. This is obviously is a scenario assuming that you can survive and heal it back up or kill before your HP is depleted but still the Guardian and the Elementalist can on paper recover lost HP through means that aren’t the dedicate 6 slot.

Disclaimer: This is not a comparison of survivability or who can bunker better etc. This is just strictly speaking about sustain before investment.

oZii.2864:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

But technically speaking, the same passive HP/s is pretty much always better on a higher healthpool, because it almost always has more time to do its thing.

If warriors had low base hp (and that was the only change), healing signet would absolutely not be more powerful than it is now.

PS. because you edited curse you.
Warriors take less damage (before investment or with equal investment) than other classes. They are capable of taking more, not actually taking more which again does not justify a stronger heal.

lol yea sorry for the edit.

Thats true but Warriors also don’t have any other outside source of healing by default unless you go deeper into the vitality tree.

Look at Elementalist and Guardians who have the ability to heal before investment that isn’t a 6 skill. So while the Warrior takes less damage before investment comparable to a Guardian the Guardian also has inherent sustain to recover that HP if no trait points are ever used same with an Elementalist. This is obviously is a scenario assuming that you can survive and heal it back up or kill before your HP is depleted but still the Guardian and the Elementalist can on paper recover lost HP through means that aren’t the dedicate 6 slot.

I wasn’t arguing with that, I was arguing with a higher healthpool meriting better heals.

I would have the rest of your post, if you didn’t edit while I was typing >:(

MiLkZz.4789:

You don’t look at the total picture, it is the warriors ONLY way of sustain. All other classes have different skills that heal them aswel. Warriors only have that by heavily investing in a line sacrificing a lot of damage.

Now, you only need 26% poison uptime to make healing signet heal LESS than healing surge. And any good player will clean off poison and use stability or take a moment in which they can’t be interrupted to pop their heal.

Drop healing signet to 350HPS and NOBODY in his right mind would take it. Because, face it, burst heals are better than regen. Because the healing signet is immensely vulnerable to burst, if a healing signet warrior gets focused, he’ll melt. Yes, he’ll melt. Endure pain will only safe his kitten for 4s longer.

They were not going to higher the healing from the active, but make it more appealing to use it in a fight.

Drop it by 20-30% and everyone will go healing surge for roaming and defiant stance for zerging. And people using healing signet will be called nub again. Take it from an experienced warrior player. There is nothing wrong with healing signet.

ps.: HS loses healing potential aswel when you are full health and not getting damage (dodging, blocking, etc) but still fighting.

This a billion times over. Every other class has loads of healing and never has to worry about damage. Thief has the most health and best armor, and loads of his “damage” traits are littered with huge 1k heals. Mesmers can heal and shake conditions off with a simple auto attack. Rangers are so good at healing they have now become Shamens.

Immense Sarcasm off: Face facts, warrior is OP and it needs to be dealt with. Thief can get some healing in stealth if he invests a full 30 points in a none damage trait line. yeah, and the signet heals for half of what the warriors does and its kitten by the fact it only heals on attack, not all the time.

In sPVP at least the warrior is out of control in how buffed it is. Some classes actually have to make choices, damage or survivability. Warrior can have both.

That’s a large write up for something that can best be defined as every warrior’s first healing skill. You heal while you cc (you get lots of cc), you heal while you mitigate damage (you got lots of damage mitigation, you heal while you disengage (you got lots of disengage) and you heal while you are simply being beat up (you’re a warrior). It’s a passive rain or shine damage reduction and when you want to heal, you just use a combination of any of the above damage avoiding tactics.

HS warriors are less technical clunky thieves imo. By that I mean they render you helpless and only die if they get tired of living.

Scrib.9207:

Wait wait, let’s see if I am getting this right. You are saying that having higher HP is actually a bad thing because you have to heal yourself for more to get to full health? Subsequently then, vitality is actually a negative stat that you should avoid at all costs, cuz you know… it makes it harder for you to top yourself.

While I agree that the concept is a bit laughable, the second part of what you say is actually more than just correct. If you are weighting HP vs DR, one important argument for DR in general is that healing effectively increases as it’ll constitute a larger part of your health pool.

Not relevant to the sPvP playerbase due to the length of combat, but in shorter formats it becomes a bit more important as a distinction.

DaliIndica.9041:

MiLkZz.4789:

You don’t look at the total picture, it is the warriors ONLY way of sustain. All other classes have different skills that heal them aswel. Warriors only have that by heavily investing in a line sacrificing a lot of damage.

Now, you only need 26% poison uptime to make healing signet heal LESS than healing surge. And any good player will clean off poison and use stability or take a moment in which they can’t be interrupted to pop their heal.

Drop healing signet to 350HPS and NOBODY in his right mind would take it. Because, face it, burst heals are better than regen. Because the healing signet is immensely vulnerable to burst, if a healing signet warrior gets focused, he’ll melt. Yes, he’ll melt. Endure pain will only safe his kitten for 4s longer.

They were not going to higher the healing from the active, but make it more appealing to use it in a fight.

Drop it by 20-30% and everyone will go healing surge for roaming and defiant stance for zerging. And people using healing signet will be called nub again. Take it from an experienced warrior player. There is nothing wrong with healing signet.

ps.: HS loses healing potential aswel when you are full health and not getting damage (dodging, blocking, etc) but still fighting.

This a billion times over. Every other class has loads of healing and never has to worry about damage. Thief has the most health and best armor, and loads of his “damage” traits are littered with huge 1k heals. Mesmers can heal and shake conditions off with a simple auto attack. Rangers are so good at healing they have now become Shamens.

Immense Sarcasm off: Face facts, warrior is OP and it needs to be dealt with. Thief can get some healing in stealth if he invests a full 30 points in a none damage trait line. yeah, and the signet heals for half of what the warriors does and its kitten by the fact it only heals on attack, not all the time.

In sPVP at least the warrior is out of control in how buffed it is. Some classes actually have to make choices, damage or survivability. Warrior can have both.

You dont play warrior do you?? I am a spvp player. When i make my builds i have three main choices armor, vitality, or dps. If i want high armor my vitality drops. Witch makes me susceptible. To conditions and low dps. High vitality i lose armor and can get bursted.down fast. And if i want huge damage i suffer in both areas. Running HS on a zerker warrior is not as effective. The burst heals are much better. HS shines in bunker builds and balanced builds. Then we get to the poisen, witch is why i kill most warriors who use HS, and i only get acsess to that from weapon swaps. If i want my war to live.my trait points go to vit and tough. So i lose out on dps.

So yes warriors have a chioce sustain or damage. A year ago people laughed at the thought of any one playing a war in pvp. Now that we can actually. Do something people are mad.(same with necro) sadly i dont think you people are ganna be till warriors are back to free kills.

While I dont think healing signet isnt that much of a problem if warriors dont pick 20 points in defence
Why does healing signet have to be a viable option in “competitive” play in any game mode?
I think it would be fine being worse than any other warrior heal since its purely passive and the lazy person choice. Like it used to be.
A passive ability(any class) should never be as good choice or better than a active ability.

MiLkZz.4789:

You don’t look at the total picture, it is the warriors ONLY way of sustain. All other classes have different skills that heal them aswel. Warriors only have that by heavily investing in a line sacrificing a lot of damage.

Now, you only need 26% poison uptime to make healing signet heal LESS than healing surge. And any good player will clean off poison and use stability or take a moment in which they can’t be interrupted to pop their heal.

Drop healing signet to 350HPS and NOBODY in his right mind would take it. Because, face it, burst heals are better than regen. Because the healing signet is immensely vulnerable to burst, if a healing signet warrior gets focused, he’ll melt. Yes, he’ll melt. Endure pain will only safe his kitten for 4s longer.

They were not going to higher the healing from the active, but make it more appealing to use it in a fight.

Drop it by 20-30% and everyone will go healing surge for roaming and defiant stance for zerging. And people using healing signet will be called nub again. Take it from an experienced warrior player. There is nothing wrong with healing signet.

ps.: HS loses healing potential aswel when you are full health and not getting damage (dodging, blocking, etc) but still fighting.

You mean like how a Ranger has to invest a utility slot + heal slot to get equal to Healing Signet, and how a Ranger has to invest 30 points in Beastmaster to get a Heal that’s weaker then 15 points in the defense line

I laugh at people saying “1 year ago we were cannon fodder on pvp” to make up for their defensive statements about warrior’s position in the current meta.

The fact that even the devs have realised there was something broken with HS should tell enough about this healing skill. And even with the upcoming nerf, nothing will change.

Vuh.1328:

While I dont think healing signet isnt that much of a problem if warriors dont pick 20 points in defence
Why does healing signet have to be a viable option in “competitive” play in any game mode?
I think it would be fine being worse than any other warrior heal since its purely passive and the lazy person choice. Like it used to be.
A passive ability(any class) should never be as good choice or better than a active ability.

Yes but the main problem is wars lack sustain. They dont have the access that all the other classes get. Talking about passives like gaurds aegis, they dont have to do.anything to negate a complete attk. Or the fact that all a ele has to do is switch to water and heal right up.
If the healing of HS is the main problem then lower it but have it give a buff every some odd seconds to make up for losing sustain.

Basically, you want the same sustain of low hp classes, while retaining high hp.
Also, in any mode beside pvp, talking about what they don’t have is quite useless, as protection and aegis are given to allies as well…thus they have them on top of their personal sustain.

MiLkZz.4789:

Drop it by 20-30% and everyone will go healing surge for roaming and defiant stance for zerging. And people using healing signet will be called nub again.

Right now, everyone running without HS are called nubs.

After 20-30% nerf, newbies will be still running with HS, because of its lucrative effectiveness/brain usage ratio; while veterans will choose other healing skills, which reward them for active and smart play. Defiant stance is a perfect example here.

PS: Mending needs some attention aswell. It needs to cleanse at least one more condition, or have some kind of condi protection a few seconds after using it, while cleansing ire has to be nerfed to basement, preferably removed.

Manuhell.2759:

Basically, you want the same sustain of low hp classes, while retaining high hp.
Also, in any mode beside pvp, talking about what they don’t have is quite useless, as protection and aegis are given to allies as well…thus they have them on top of their personal sustain.

Wait because. Other classes have sustain that they share with thier allies means wars dont need it??

@Dagins – the problem with HS. Is people think its better then warriors other heals when its not. Zerkers builds benefit from burst heals way more then HS people just dont realize that.

@alamore
HS effectively kicked out pure zerker builds (at least from sPvP), although I have seen zerker warriors with it doing fine. You don’t have to cast heal, and getting interrupted while casting a healing spell with zerker gear usually means death.

Saying that stability makes burst heal more powerful than HS isn’t entirely true, because a warrior would rather save stability for a stomp or some more tactical move rather than just to support a single heal.

Yes i agree with you on some points but thats were skilled wars will surpass. Some one who can pay attention to their target will be able to get heals off easly. I run 2 war builds in spvp tanky condi s/sh, s/s with HS and zerker with gs/hammer with burst heal. And i usual kill other zerker wars who us HS with mine. Ive also been testing a m/s build witch could.use.some more testing but HS is less effective for that build also.

People just dont.like the idea of HS they dont know how to.handle.it.

alamore.1974:

Wait because. Other classes have sustain that they share with thier allies means wars dont need it??

No, just that you shouldn’t give too much weight about the lack of “something” if they can get it from other sources – like allies.
Else you end up having a class unbalanced in parties. And seeing the lfg, that’s exactly the case – warriors with a single guardian supplying the boons they lack.

So your fine with a class forced to rely. On all the other classes for support. What about people who solo. Or roam on wvw. They should always lose to other classes?? No one would want to play a class that cant hold its own. Gw2. Is doing the best to balence each class. Meaning a theif can beat a war and vise versa. You win some you lose some. And without some sustain you cant. There should be no win all build. Ask yourself do you lose90% of the time to wars?? I know i dont

Well, for starters, warriors are supposed to rely on allies for condition removal by design (even if they didn’t actually follow it, thus the unbalanced mess of a class we’ve got now).
And the situation we’ve got now is the complete opposite of the one you describe. Strong alone, even stronger in parties. With an amazing sustain even with zerk gear and no healing power. You can see a lot of warriors in lfg, as well as people that only search for them (or guardians, if they already have enough warriors).

If their sustain is so high because they don’t have access to protection and aegis, giving it via allies just make them overpowered: thus make them immune to protection and aegis.
Or don’t balance around the “lack” of them to begin with.

it’s funny that people say “warriors don’t have any other way of sustain”. Are you kittenning kidding me?
warriors have some of the best susatin options without HS:
1. Stances (berserker stanse and endure pain in particular).

2. Highest access to self stability in-game.

3. Adrenal Health.

4. Cleansing Ire.

5. Amazing CC skills such as “Skull Crack”, “Earthshaker”, “Pin Down”. (CC is both offensive and defensive, duh).

6. Easy access to lyss’s 6th effect via Signet of Rage.

7.Overall the best self condition removal/sustainability in-game: Berserker’s Stance, Signet of Stamina, Cleansing Ire, lyssa+Signet of Rage.

8.mace/sword or mace/shield combined with the “Missile Deflection” is incredibly defensive and also offensive. It counters projectile-focused specs to the ground.

And on top of all that, warriors have the highest base HP and one of the highest base toughtness. They’re already very sustained.
So enough with this “lol we’re glass don’t nerf pl0x”.

…..Absolutely absurd, its like Deja Vu all over again. The same points and counter-points are being discussed, yet there is no ACTUAL constructive arguments that have not already been pointed out yet.

Let me give you guys the distinct reasons why they cannot nerf Healing Signet anymore than they will with the balance patch coming up:

1 – Other healing choices for warriors are absolute garbage.

Many people are trying to defend Healing Surge as a viable option, however mechanically it is more broken than any other heal in the game, and its HPS is reliant on not utilizing the unique feature of the warrior class, Adrenaline and Burst! It’s seriously the only heal that punishes you for using it! To put it into perspective, it would be like if a Guardian Heal suddenly put all your Virtues on Cooldown, or an Elementalist heal only healed for more in a certain Attunement.

Then we have Mending, I am fairly certain with all the Healing Signet complaints that the Devs have forgotten about this obsolete heal. It has zero place in our builds with access to regular condition cleanse that does a good enough job to deal with the condition meta. Either it needs to be reworked, or make it cleanse ALL conditions every 20 seconds so we can say ’Don’t need Cleansing Ire, got me this Mending!’.

Defiant Stance, stupidly situational I can’t even bat this an eye anymore without thinking ‘Who can I troll with a well-timed play?’.

2 – We have a decent amount of Hard Mitigation, but Zero Soft Mitigation.

Hard Mitigation includes Condition Immunities, Damage Immunities, Shield Blocks, Evades, anything that actively prevents damage coming in.

Soft Mitigation includes Aegis, Protection, Stealth, Damage Redirection (Looking at you rangers). These kinds of mitigation have the potential to prevent incoming damage.

Stealth is an important one to note here, and the most situational of the mitigations out there, it can prevent incoming direct damage if your enemy can’t get a good track of where you are to guess his AoEs and Swings at. Thieves if traited can deal with conditions while in stealth, making it all the more impressive.

Warriors have the capacity for having methods to deal with all kinds of damage in a single build, but the more we spec into defense, the less likely you will see that same warrior being able to output a huge 10k blow to you, he’s going to either go condition or decent sustained/pressure power. Said warriors going the absolute extremes in Hard Mitigation (Endure Pain, Berserker Stance, and a Shield) have a reduced amount of utilities, meaning the only thing you have to worry about are what weapons said warriors are using. And once you know a Warrior’s weapons, you can pretty much guess his every move considering how telegraphed we are, at which stage it is a L2P issue.

3 – We do not have an infinite amount of everything.

We are not permanently in Stability, our CC has been greatly nerfed sinces it’s previous incarnations, Cleansing Ire will still crumble to high amounts of condition spam, Adrenal Health’s HPS is 120 per second if we never use a burst skill, so it fluxates between 40 – 120 during the fight. Every single ‘benefit’ you list for a warrior does not apply to EVERY WARRIOR.

Trust me when I say this. Unlike the other professions that have a great deal of ‘tools’ to be used, Warriors have the only perk of being an reliably tenacious force on the field. We have to rely on our knowledge of other professions’ builds and then find the hard way to brute force our way to victory. We don’t have the luxury of sneaking up on someone to burst, and our gap closers are still a bit wonky.

Sykper.6583:

…..Absolutely absurd, its like Deja Vu all over again. The same points and counter-points are being discussed, yet there is no ACTUAL constructive arguments that have not already been pointed out yet.

Let me give you guys the distinct reasons why they cannot nerf Healing Signet anymore than they will with the balance patch coming up: …

I only agree with you about that warrior’s other healing skills are too weak and don’t synergies well with most builds.
But honestly got many parts wrong.

1. Stability: warriors with Dolyak Sig. + Balanced Stance + Lyssa can have up to 23 seconds of stability, every 40(s)-60(s). That’s way too much.

2. Telegraphed Skills: I don’t thing warriors are so obvious and telegraphed, but let’s just say they are. Hambow warriors will waste your endurance with Combustive Shot and Auto attack (either longbow’s or hammer’s) Earthshaker from close range during a team fight isn’t easy to dodge, especially if you’re immobilized by the hammer (if traited) or Pin Down. The Fact that warriors will constantly have either Combustive Shot or Earthshaker at a time you can’t dodge or will simply immobilize you.

3. Warrior’s soft mitigation is Adrenal Health + High base defensive stats. while it’s not alot, warriors do have a huge amount of hard mitigation, having too much soft mitigation would make the warrior even more broken.

4. Berserker’s Stance isn’t situational at all. It’s always effective. Not only by being immune to condition damage, but being immune to condition CC like Fear, Blinding, Immobilize, Chill, Cripple. It’s always good because it will always make you more unstoppable.

Now, before the judgment crusade of “l2p noob try warrior and see for yourself” I can tell you that I main a warrior, and besides that I played every class as main at some point and have played all pvp specs in the game.

DanSH.6143:

-Snip-

That’s nice, until you really look at what you are suggesting.

Running Dolyak, Balanced Stance, and Lyssa? I can understand going overboard on a certain thing, but Stability only really affects strong CC builds, and does NOTHING else. Any warrior worth a kitten knows running too much stability is a bad thing, you would never see warriors running that much stability (You choose Dolyak or Balanced Stance, not both) unless they are certain they are facing enemies with aggressive amounts of CC that they feel the need to have 20+ seconds of Stability. Not to mention Stability can be stripped by many a PvP build out there. Also considering how strong conditions are, CC is the least of your worries.

Combustive Shot may force you off a point, but you do not absolutely NEED to stand in it, and once you know a warrior has a hammer you kitten well should be ready to dodge. Most good warriors are looking for that lovely CC rotation innate in the hammer, and ever since Earthshaker’s damage was nerfed it’s only real viability is to set up the CC chain, meaning you keep a stun-break ready to deal with it. Pin down is already being addressed by A-Net, and although I thought it definitely needed a slight nerf, I did not expect them to address it mechanically as opposed to its damage conditionally. It’s now going to be even more important for the warrior to count dodges for Pin Down since its cast time might not make it against a profession running CC reduction if said warrior stunned first.

Toughness is a terrible soft mitigation that everyone has to a degree, and THANKFULLY it will actually show some promise when the Ferocity changes go into play. Going back to your previous example with a high stability warrior, that build’s biggest weakness would have been burst damage since Crit Damage scaled beyond what Toughness caps out at. Any thief worth a kitten would have been the hard counter to your build. Adrenal Health is NOT a mitigation, its a sustain, and its affected just as much by poison as Healing Signet.

I never said Berserker stance was situational, it is actually in its current form probably the best stance, the synergy between it and Endure Pain grants Warriors a unique capability to actually be immune to damage on a point and still contest it. However, out of SPvP we end up wasting two utility slots for semi-lengthy cooldowns to get something many other classes have, actual invulnerability.

Don’t get me wrong, Healing Signet is a good healing skill, but it is our only healing skill at this time. That’s the biggest issue I have right now.

^
Even if we are straying away from the main topic, the amount of Warriors who run Lyssa+Balanced Stance+Dolyak (with Signet CD reduction) is quite high.

alamore.1974:

So your fine with a class forced to rely. On all the other classes for support. What about people who solo. Or roam on wvw. They should always lose to other classes?? No one would want to play a class that cant hold its own. Gw2. Is doing the best to balence each class. Meaning a theif can beat a war and vise versa. You win some you lose some. And without some sustain you cant. There should be no win all build. Ask yourself do you lose90% of the time to wars?? I know i dont

Your are right, to all people who complains about warrior please go to Obsidian Sanctum and look how many warriors are there compared to other classes.
Most people are running with Necro-Thief-Mesmer-Engi, those are the best class to win 1vs1, not warrior.

Sure, Warriors and Guardians are better in zerg fight, we all know it, but when it comes to 1vs1 or small fights warrior is not as good as it seems, I’m no warrior, but I playined against many of them, and with my ranger/mesmer/ele/necro I won most of the fights against them… I would say 90% ( not counting those time when we can’t kill each other and we call it off ), they are IMO in the right place, good for team play but nothing more.

Only talking about WvW roaming/duel here.

hihey.1075:

^
Even if we are straying away from the main topic, the amount of Warriors who run Lyssa+Balanced Stance+Dolyak (with Signet CD reduction) is quite high.

That leaves zerker stance or endure pain left heh. People actually do that? Perhaps we are including Last stand trait. Now that I do on my warrior the bar is always doly, endure and zerker stance. Last stand trait cause Defy pain I don’t think is all that good unless I have 22k+ HP.

sminkiottone.6972:

Your are right, to all people who complains about warrior please go to Obsidian Sanctum and look how many warriors are there compared to other classes.
Most people are running with Necro-Thief-Mesmer-Engi, those are the best class to win 1vs1, not warrior.

Sure, Warriors and Guardians are better in zerg fight, we all know it, but when it comes to 1vs1 or small fights warrior is not as good as it seems, I’m no warrior, but I playined against many of them, and with my ranger/mesmer/ele/necro I won most of the fights against them… I would say 90% ( not counting those time when we can’t kill each other and we call it off ), they are IMO in the right place, good for team play but nothing more.

Only talking about WvW roaming/duel here.

What sanctum do you go in? There is almost always a warrior around and the builds usually are Mace/Shield + GS, S/S+Bow Condi, Hambow.

I never take the time to duel warriors (I main ele) but I also never bring my Warrior to duel cause it is a waste of time. I don’t know why Warriors always want to duel other warrior that’s basically a Bunker v Bunker fight Zzzzz.

sminkiottone.6972:

alamore.1974:

So your fine with a class forced to rely. On all the other classes for support. What about people who solo. Or roam on wvw. They should always lose to other classes?? No one would want to play a class that cant hold its own. Gw2. Is doing the best to balence each class. Meaning a theif can beat a war and vise versa. You win some you lose some. And without some sustain you cant. There should be no win all build. Ask yourself do you lose90% of the time to wars?? I know i dont

Your are right, to all people who complains about warrior please go to Obsidian Sanctum and look how many warriors are there compared to other classes.
Most people are running with Necro-Thief-Mesmer-Engi, those are the best class to win 1vs1, not warrior.

Sure, Warriors and Guardians are better in zerg fight, we all know it, but when it comes to 1vs1 or small fights warrior is not as good as it seems, I’m no warrior, but I playined against many of them, and with my ranger/mesmer/ele/necro I won most of the fights against them… I would say 90% ( not counting those time when we can’t kill each other and we call it off ), they are IMO in the right place, good for team play but nothing more.

Only talking about WvW roaming/duel here.

The reason there are not many warriors in the OS is because not many people know really how to play them. They just like to press F1 and stun people with their hammer, which does not work against anyone with a decent amount of skill.
A warrior who loses to a Necro or to a Thief should be ashamed of himself actually. Engineers too should be easy to deal with (unless they use Supply Crate).

@Ozii: the third utility is Zerker stance. Endure Pain is not THAT important imho.

Please wait until the change is made before you complain again. You’ve been heard, ArenaNet is responding. They’re wise enough not to overnerf it all at once…let them try this. If it remains a problem, it can always be nerfed more.

Also, given that it’s not 10 or 15 percent, but an curious number like 8 suggests that they’ve been number crunching on this and have a good reason for their choice.

Sykper.6583

Many people are trying to defend Healing Surge as a viable option, however mechanically it is more broken than any other heal in the game, and its HPS is reliant on not utilizing the unique feature of the warrior class, Adrenaline and Burst! It’s seriously the only heal that punishes you for using it! To put it into perspective, it would be like if a Guardian Heal suddenly put all your Virtues on Cooldown, or an Elementalist heal only healed for more in a certain Attunement.

For the record…the Elementalist’s Glyph of Elemental Harmony does exactly that.

ThiBash.5634:

Sykper.6583

Many people are trying to defend Healing Surge as a viable option, however mechanically it is more broken than any other heal in the game, and its HPS is reliant on not utilizing the unique feature of the warrior class, Adrenaline and Burst! It’s seriously the only heal that punishes you for using it! To put it into perspective, it would be like if a Guardian Heal suddenly put all your Virtues on Cooldown, or an Elementalist heal only healed for more in a certain Attunement.

For the record…the Elementalist’s Glyph of Elemental Harmony does exactly that.

And I respect them for it.

TBF, you do have other heals on said ele though that work just as well.

Most people do not understand how balance between classes is done.

The whole concept of balancing is done around two things:
1. So does Warrior.
2. Warrior does it better.

Guardians have natural health regen? So does Warrior, for triple the amount.
Necromancers have the highest HP? So does Warrior.
Thieves have highest mobility? So does Warrior.
Guardians have highest armor? So does Warrior.
Rangers have spirits? So does Warrior, with 4 indestructible ones.
Guardians can block? So does Warrior, for many more hits.
Mesmers can perma Vigor? So does Warrior, not better? Nerf Mesmer Perma Vigor.
Eles can have immunity to conditions? So does Warrior.
Guardians have an Elite Invulnerability? So does Warrior, but it’s not Elite.
Other classes have high DPS? So does Warrior.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Most people do not understand how balance between classes is done.

The whole concept of balancing is done around two things:
1. So does Warrior.
2. Warrior does it better.

Guardians have natural health regen? So does Warrior, for triple the amount.
Necromancers have the highest HP? So does Warrior.
Thieves have highest mobility? So does Warrior.
Guardians have highest armor? So does Warrior.
Rangers have spirits? So does Warrior, with 4 indestructible ones.
Guardians can block? So does Warrior, for many more hits.
Mesmers can perma Vigor? So does Warrior, not better? Nerf Mesmer Perma Vigor.
Eles can have immunity to conditions? So does Warrior.
Guardians have an Elite Invulnerability? So does Warrior, but it’s not Elite.
Other classes have high DPS? So does Warrior.

Post of the day, lol

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Most people do not understand how balance between classes is done.

The whole concept of balancing is done around two things:
1. So does Warrior.
2. Warrior does it better.

Guardians have natural health regen? So does Warrior, for triple the amount.
Necromancers have the highest HP? So does Warrior.
Thieves have highest mobility? So does Warrior.
Guardians have highest armor? So does Warrior.
Rangers have spirits? So does Warrior, with 4 indestructible ones.
Guardians can block? So does Warrior, for many more hits.
Mesmers can perma Vigor? So does Warrior, not better? Nerf Mesmer Perma Vigor.
Eles can have immunity to conditions? So does Warrior.
Guardians have an Elite Invulnerability? So does Warrior, but it’s not Elite.
Other classes have high DPS? So does Warrior.

As humorous as this post is, it only further perpetuates an incorrect stigma that every single warrior is capable of every single one of those things in a single build.

But I’ll take a gander-

“Engineers and Thief poison fields too good? Nerfed thanks to warriors!”
“Minion Necros losing damage and sustain? Warriors did it!”

No one expects that a warrior can do all things in all builds anymore than anyone expects any other class to have a build that can take all its strengths. Doesn’t change the simple fact that a warrior has more and can take more to battle than any other class.

As for incremental nerfs, I think ANet made a huge mistake not overnerfing the warrior’s healing signet and then bringing it up. You nerf small when things are close to aligned and nerf hard when there is a large deviation away from balance. Warrior is quite a ways from being balanced. Hit hard. Hit now.

Bombsaway.7198:

No one expects that a warrior can do all things in all builds anymore than anyone expects any other class to have a build that can take all its strengths. Doesn’t change the simple fact that a warrior has more and can take more to battle than any other class.

As for incremental nerfs, I think ANet made a huge mistake not overnerfing the warrior’s healing signet and then bringing it up. You nerf small when things are close to aligned and nerf hard when there is a large deviation away from balance. Warrior is quite a ways from being balanced. Hit hard. Hit now.

It is unimaginably scary that you honestly think that balance is as simple as what you have described. Each and every change needs to be considerably thought out, and complete overhauls like you describe need to be completely examined thoroughly for a long time.

Just stop.