Guild Wars 2

Like seriously why do people whine so much about meta builds like celestial or condi bunker specs. Saying those builds are lame or unfair. Thats basicaly like saying that the winner of a car race is lame and unfair because he has the best car / best team.

Not using the best horse you have available for a horse race and than complaining that you cant win is rather childish.

Some will hate I just call it a great set up I just want the other specs to at least be usable that’s all I care bout like thief’s traps,ele condition,guard condition and spirit weapons,ranger pet need a evade command….

The hate got lower tough since most hide in pvp which won’t always be conquest thus those builds will eventually be more used and self-made duels created around their preferences: they’ll never fight any of their counters,condi bunkers and spec they wish didn’t exist even rules about certain skills lol. They just refuse to accept this is not a 1v1 game so I would call it fear and insecurity instead of hate.

Do you really need an explanation for that? Going condition damage allows you to build defensive while dishing out almost as much damage as a 4/5 glass cannon! There is something wrong in the game when even guardians start to use condition builds.
Your example lacks. That car racer won because he was the most skilled. But, for example, a PU condi mesmer winds because its a PU condi mesmer. You have to fight the build more than the player behind it, which introduces the so called build wars. Most condition builds allow bad players to play godlike simply because they are either too forgiving or too strong, or both. Now what happens if good players use such builds? Take a look at Call of Duty for example. The ever-hated noob tube (underslung grenqade launcher) was used by almost everyone once one person started to use it simply because its the most effective way to get kills. But its as cheap as nothing else… a power build at least has to have skill in this game when facing power or condi builds. a condition build has to have more condition cleanse than opposing conditioners, or has to have more conditions than the opponent has condition cleanses. That wacks balance out of shape and it gets worse every day.

TheBandicoot.5294:

Do you really need an explanation for that? Going condition damage allows you to build defensive while dishing out almost as much damage as a 4/5 glass cannon! There is something wrong in the game when even guardians start to use condition builds.
Your example lacks. That car racer won because he was the most skilled. But, for example, a PU condi mesmer winds because its a PU condi mesmer. You have to fight the build more than the player behind it, which introduces the so called build wars. Most condition builds allow bad players to play godlike simply because they are either too forgiving or too strong, or both. Now what happens if good players use such builds? Take a look at Call of Duty for example. The ever-hated noob tube (underslung grenqade launcher) was used by almost everyone once one person started to use it simply because its the most effective way to get kills. But its as cheap as nothing else… a power build at least has to have skill in this game when facing power or condi builds. a condition build has to have more condition cleanse than opposing conditioners, or has to have more conditions than the opponent has condition cleanses. That wacks balance out of shape and it gets worse every day.

Please say glass canon instead of power, I fight zerker or celestial ele 0 2 0 6 6,hambow,celestial war,SA D/P and D/D thief,chill/blind necros, zerker SoF ranger…they do fine. The problem is those GLASS CANONS go out there thinking they will fight only other GLASS CANONS no better power,tank,condi or AI. PU dies versus corruption,pew pew ranger…or simply not staying by the clones(because the staff AA and Chaos Storm are SOOO reliable,the block is SOOO invisible,Confusing Images is SOOO not evadable) stop jumping in there thinking: the quicker I do this the higher my chance are it’s just NOOO time your self.

Thus come a very important question do you build on what you like or what you want to counter? Please share us your spec….

YEAH conditions takes SOOOO little time to kill you so little that condition burst is avaible to ALLLL THE CLASSES.

Mayama.1854:

Like seriously why do people whine so much about meta builds like celestial or condi bunker specs. Saying those builds are lame or unfair. Thats basicaly like saying that the winner of a car race is lame and unfair because he has the best car / best team.

Not using the best horse you have available for a horse race and than complaining that you cant win is rather childish.

When the game first came out, there was a very carefully constructed amount of conditions that each class could apply, with fairly limited max durations. there were certain gear types that simply did not exist; namely Dire, Apothecary, Settlers. Likewise, every class had a carefully selected number of condition removals. Some classes had enough that condition based enemies were no threat (if they spec’d them), and other classes had very few because they were designed to be weak against conditions.

this was great because

• Condi specs were very viable, but some classes could counter play them by taking builds that had more clears
• Condi gear selections had a weakness. If you went rabid you werent going to have a lot of health. If you went carrion you werent going to have a lot of toughness. niether were heavy on healing power so they didnt have too much sustain.
• While you can’t exactly counter power builds with trait and skill selections, gear has existed since launch that counters power builds very hard, namely soldiers, knights, clerics.
• Condi food did not exist, so conditions that were balanced around lasting 10 seconds lasted 10 seconds.

Now…

• Introduction of perplexity runes, torment runes, torment sigils, and certain class changes have dramatically increased the amount of conditions normally applied. Despite this, the amount of condi clears did not really increase with very few exceptions. This means NO CLASS IN THE GAME (with the possible exception of necromancers) has enough clears to flat out counter a condition user anymore.
• The items above also introduced powerful conditions to classes that did not normally posses them, namely perplexity runes. Now necromancers are applying a ton of confusion stacks on fear, p/d thieves can spam interrupts until their application is successful, and classes that already had access to confusion now had approximately double the amount. further, it took forever for these blatantly OP runes which should have been removed to even get a cooldown. the game was not designed around necromancers applying a ton of confusion stacks.
• the introduction of condition duration food amplifies all of these problems, making conditions last for huge durations forcing the victim to eat a counter food to normal it out (which in turn leads all condi users to use the duration food, less they go against someone who ate lemongrass and find themselves less effective, further excarbating the cycle).
• the amount of stats needed to be successful as a condition player was much, much lower than their power based counter parts (no need for ferocity, and only with the introduction of on-crit conditions have condi users found a minor need for crit), which allows them to concentrate much more on survivability. while this was previously countered by lack of condi bunker armor, the introduction of the armor gave them the green light to stack condition damage, and their choice of healing power, toughness and vit without having to mix, match and sacrifice like everyone else.

I hope that wasnt too long and that it adequetly covers it. There is nothing wrong with condition users and people dont hate condition users. They hate the state condition specs have been allowed to evolve too, and in a few cases they hate the lack of counter play (eg no one likes p/d thieves, PU mesmers, not because of condis but because it takes so little ability to win and so much ability to defeat, no one likes having 10+ seconds of confusion stacks on them, because unless you have a clear, it basically forces you not to play for that amount of time).

Raven.9603:

Mayama.1854:

Like seriously why do people whine so much about meta builds like celestial or condi bunker specs. Saying those builds are lame or unfair. Thats basicaly like saying that the winner of a car race is lame and unfair because he has the best car / best team.

Not using the best horse you have available for a horse race and than complaining that you cant win is rather childish.

When the game first came out, there was a very carefully constructed amount of conditions that each class could apply, with fairly limited max durations. there were certain gear types that simply did not exist; namely Dire, Apothecary, Settlers. Likewise, every class had a carefully selected number of condition removals. Some classes had enough that condition based enemies were no threat (if they spec’d them), and other classes had very few because they were designed to be weak against conditions.

this was great because

• Condi specs were very viable, but some classes could counter play them by taking builds that had more clears
• Condi gear selections had a weakness. If you went rabid you werent going to have a lot of health. If you went carrion you werent going to have a lot of toughness. niether were heavy on healing power so they didnt have too much sustain.
• While you can’t exactly counter power builds with trait and skill selections, gear has existed since launch that counters power builds very hard, namely soldiers, knights, clerics.
• Condi food did not exist, so conditions that were balanced around lasting 10 seconds lasted 10 seconds.

Now…

• Introduction of perplexity runes, torment runes, torment sigils, and certain class changes have dramatically increased the amount of conditions normally applied. Despite this, the amount of condi clears did not really increase with very few exceptions. This means NO CLASS IN THE GAME (with the possible exception of necromancers) has enough clears to flat out counter a condition user anymore.
• The items above also introduced powerful conditions to classes that did not normally posses them, namely perplexity runes. Now necromancers are applying a ton of confusion stacks on fear, p/d thieves can spam interrupts until their application is successful, and classes that already had access to confusion now had approximately double the amount. further, it took forever for these blatantly OP runes which should have been removed to even get a cooldown. the game was not designed around necromancers applying a ton of confusion stacks.
• the introduction of condition duration food amplifies all of these problems, making conditions last for huge durations forcing the victim to eat a counter food to normal it out (which in turn leads all condi users to use the duration food, less they go against someone who ate lemongrass and find themselves less effective, further excarbating the cycle).
• the amount of stats needed to be successful as a condition player was much, much lower than their power based counter parts (no need for ferocity, and only with the introduction of on-crit conditions have condi users found a minor need for crit), which allows them to concentrate much more on survivability. while this was previously countered by lack of condi bunker armor, the introduction of the armor gave them the green light to stack condition damage, and their choice of healing power, toughness and vit without having to mix, match and sacrifice like everyone else.

I hope that wasnt too long and that it adequetly covers it. There is nothing wrong with condition users and people dont hate condition users. They hate the state condition specs have been allowed to evolve too, and in a few cases they hate the lack of counter play (eg no one likes p/d thieves, PU mesmers, not because of condis but because it takes so little ability to win and so much ability to defeat, no one likes having 10+ seconds of confusion stacks on them, because unless you have a clear, it basically forces you not to play for that amount of time).

Seems like you are focusing on WvW… where I can make a thief backstab for 10k damage or a kill shot warrior for something like 20k dmg.. point being is it is simply not balanced with food/bloodlust/ascended/legendary/etc. the stats are simply out of control for conditions as well as power builds. If we however focus on PvP I think conditions are more in-line with how they were meant to be. There are still some outliers for sure the game is not completely balanced in PvP.. but to ask Anet for balance in WvW would simply be too much work.

The imbalance IMHO is what makes WvW fun. If I could not get on my ridiculous Perplex Necro and 2v1 a couple thieves then what is the point. If I can not perma stealth and troll a zerg with my thief than what is the point. For fair competitive fights you know where to go – PVP

Narkodx.1472:

Seems like you are focusing on WvW…

…For fair competitive fights you know where to go – PVP

Some of these problems are WvW exclusive, but most of them, including available stat distribution types and amount of conditions available /clears available now vs launch, effect both game modes.

And just for perspective: Every time someone who mainly PvP’s comes in and says what you said, it sounds like “those are WvW problems, its never going to be balanced so those problems basically don’t matter” and it just comes off really poorly.

Balance issues are exacerbated in WvW and just like PvP it will never be perfect, but it still deserves and receives balancing and fixes just like every other game mode, and complaints about its state aren’t somehow less legitimate.

Narkodx.1472:

If I could not get on my ridiculous Perplex Necro and 2v1 a couple thieves then what is the point. If I can not perma stealth and troll a zerg with my thief than what is the point.

The point is different for everyone. For some its to win the match, for others its to have big fights, for others its to have little fights. Just because you like to take advantage of balance problems when they arise for your own enjoyment doesn’t somehow make those problems less detrimental for the majority of people in that game mode. If billy the rogue enjoys griefing uplevels and emote laugh spamming them, fine for billy. It’s open world pvp and thats what happens when you run into tools. But dont act like billy doesnt understand that the rest of community looks down on that.

Looking down on the condi meta is the same. It takes less effort and if done right simply isnt counterable in 1v1. If you want to do it, fine, but dont pretend you dont understand why the rest of the community would want the condi meta changed for the better.

If it’s good, its bad.

Every build should be equally bad, at which point it’ll be all good.

Raven.9603:

Narkodx.1472:

Seems like you are focusing on WvW…

…For fair competitive fights you know where to go – PVP

Some of these problems are WvW exclusive, but most of them, including available stat distribution types and amount of conditions available /clears available now vs launch, effect both game modes.

And just for perspective: Every time someone who mainly PvP’s comes in and says what you said, it sounds like “those are WvW problems, its never going to be balanced so those problems basically don’t matter” and it just comes off really poorly.

Balance issues are exacerbated in WvW and just like PvP it will never be perfect, but it still deserves and receives balancing and fixes just like every other game mode, and complaints about its state aren’t somehow less legitimate.

Narkodx.1472:

If I could not get on my ridiculous Perplex Necro and 2v1 a couple thieves then what is the point. If I can not perma stealth and troll a zerg with my thief than what is the point.

The point is different for everyone. For some its to win the match, for others its to have big fights, for others its to have little fights. Just because you like to take advantage of balance problems when they arise for your own enjoyment doesn’t somehow make those problems less detrimental for the majority of people in that game mode. If billy the rogue enjoys griefing uplevels and emote laugh spamming them, fine for billy. It’s open world pvp and thats what happens when you run into tools. But dont act like billy doesnt understand that the rest of community looks down on that.

Looking down on the condi meta is the same. It takes less effort and if done right simply isnt counterable in 1v1. If you want to do it, fine, but dont pretend you dont understand why the rest of the community would want the condi meta changed for the better.

First of all.. slow down and change your tone

I play ALL game modes using ALL classes and using POWER/CONDI builds… so wtf are you talking about you do not know me.

WvW will NEVER be balanced.. EVER. Get over it. When you go out there on your full zerk thief build and get roflstomped by a perplex necro anet does not care in fact.. no one cares the game mode is not balanced around roaming or 1v1. Even though that is what I mostly do as well I do not come to the forums and make a writeup everytime a stupid engi puts 7 condis on me with a pistol auto attack.

WvW is sadly about PPT and big zerg fights. Where you guessed it… condis are no problem. Guardians and Warhorn Warriors make condis useless in groups.

I have no clue wtf you are talking about when you say condi builds are not counterable 1v1. L-2-P. Shadow Arts thieves can kill them. Cleansing Ire Warriors can kill them. Skilled Medi-Guards can kill them. Other condi specs can out play them. (NECRO TRANSFERS FTW)

Probably 90% of the balance complaints in this forum come from players who think they are better than they are. They make a thief get it to level 80 slap on some exotics get destroyed by a condi spec while being elite and roaming in wvw then make a forum post. B-O-R-I-N-G

Learn to adapt. I kill condi builds all day errrday.

This game has never been based around 1v1. Even if you’re using the same build down to a T, luck and crit procs will never cease to be part of a duel- even if both players are completely evenly matched.

There are some absolute BS specs out there, like PU condi mesmer or perplexity thief, that are so far out of balance that no player with any amount of self-respect will fight them. However, I must be some masochist, because I still fight them and when I win (not all wins, but not all losses either), I know I’ve overcome a big disadvantage.

Overall, the reason people hate on these specs is due to the imbalance created by only needing to spec into one stat (Condition Damage) or potentially two (Precision) in the case of certain builds, whereas a power build needs to keep in mind Power, Precision, and Ferocity. It lets condi builds spec for toughness and/or vitality, blah blah, you know the drill. In the end these condi builds turn out being extremely forgiving. I have a full apothecary warrior and from what I’ve seen, condi warrior is simply faceroll against power builds.

Basically, if I beat a condi build (which I often do, if I spec correctly), I know I’ve done a solid job, whereas if I lose, meh. Just gotta try it again next time. I don’t feel knocked down a peg losing to a perplexity thief. In my opinion, confusion is one of the biggest issues with this game. Completely broken mechanic. I have a perplexity set for my guardian, and I manage to win some. If that’s not completely messed up, I don’t know what is.

This is of course with the admission that I do fairly well against condi builds, if I spec properly. Last night, I dueled a friend from YB, on his condi regen ranger, and 5 minutes into the fight, I had not used my full condi cleanse, nor had I healed once. However, I kept getting him down to about 20% and couldn’t close the gap between 20 and 0. We ended up saying “kitten this” and just /sat.

Narkodx.1472:

First of all.. slow down and change your tone

I play ALL game modes using ALL classes and using POWER/CONDI builds… so wtf are you talking about you do not know me.

WvW will NEVER be balanced.. EVER. Get over it.

…?

Shrug it off~ "shake it off! " slotted, Trooper runes, Traited Lung Capacity.

Condi [insert class here], hambow is a well-balanced-breakfast.

ventusthunder.5067:

Last night, I dueled a friend from YB, on his condi regen ranger, and 5 minutes into the fight, I had not used my full condi cleanse, nor had I healed once. However, I kept getting him down to about 20% and couldn’t close the gap between 20 and 0. We ended up saying “kitten this” and just /sat.

I know, I was there. :p

[/quote]

*And just for perspective: Every time someone who mainly PvP’s comes in and says what you said, it sounds like “those are WvW problems, its never going to be balanced so those problems basically don’t matter” and it just comes off really poorly. *

Looking down on the condi meta is the same. It takes less effort and if done right simply isnt counterable in 1v1. If you want to do it, fine, but dont pretend you dont understand why the rest of the community would want the condi meta changed for the better.[/quote]

Tone here is inappropriate including many assumptions about ones playstyle

But I am quite hungry

Raven.9603:

ventusthunder.5067:

Last night, I dueled a friend from YB, on his condi regen ranger, and 5 minutes into the fight, I had not used my full condi cleanse, nor had I healed once. However, I kept getting him down to about 20% and couldn’t close the gap between 20 and 0. We ended up saying “kitten this” and just /sat.

I know, I was there. :p

What is the problem then? Condi-Bunkers can be beaten

Some people however believe that their special build they made without the help of the forums or google should be able to beat those builds… not happening

I use meta builds because they are meta for a reason

I am not going to think “Shadow Arts d/p is cheesy” while I am facing a perplexity engi

Only thing I think when I am defeated by another player in sPvP or WvW is how can I change my build/weapons/runes to counter that

If it is in the game it is fair – use all the tools available to you to win. Period.

You guys are aware that there is no such thing as condition meta in tpvp?

Also, to those who think a power build most be build around power/precision/ferocitity, have you ever faced a celestial d/d elem, and axebow/hambow warrior with soldier amulet? Those two are the best build in the game. They are the reason why this meta is called BUNKER META

presses all buttons and wins..
foe blames the meta again..
I stand and state it is skill..

Celestial is another talking point, as is the power of the d/d ele since they can stick huge durations of burning on you, while having insane sustain as well as access to other CC and good direct damage. Suffice to say, I’m bad against eles. Part of it has led me to make an ele to see what it’s all about, and now I’m destroying medi guards on it… so I dunno. Ele seems to be a solid counter to guard, especially those with high sustain.

Again everyone else has the right to use whatever build they want, if they want to build specifically to counter me, that’s fine too. As long as they don’t try to rub it in my face acting like a superior player, I couldn’t care less what build someone uses against me. My build has strengths and it has weaknesses too, but all that I care about is that I have fun playing it. That’s why I enjoy WvW roaming over PvP- endless build customization and a completely random playing field. Also, I’m bad. There’s that.

Poplolita.2638:

You guys are aware that there is no such thing as condition meta in tpvp?

Also, to those who think a power build most be build around power/precision/ferocitity, have you ever faced a celestial d/d elem, and axebow/hambow warrior with soldier amulet? Those two are the best build in the game. They are the reason why this meta is called BUNKER META

At this point:

“Meta” means “Anything you cannot personally beat” to the majority of players.

“Nerf anything I cannot personally beat. It’s too strong. Don’t care if it takes skill or can be outperformed by me just playing a little differently.

If I cannot beat it, it’s overpowered. The people I wipe without breaking a sweat are fine though, they just need to L2P."

I don’t quite understand the claims about how people say sPvP is balanced (and WvW isn’t) yet they can also safely say that a GC spec isn’t viable in sPvP when it is in WvW.

Actually, full on berserker isn’t even viable in sPvP with the strict damage caps it has. Your damage will quite literally remain the same running PTV on GC traits and therefore the bunker meta exists on the sole basis that GC countermeasure burst has quite literally no role or identity in the format. When entire build concepts or styles aren’t viable, your mode isn’t balanced. Maybe it’s balanced within the scope of the meta, but that’s just a horrible excuse.

Bunker is the meta because it deals near-optimal DPS while retaining immense survivability. If WvW rules applied (food aside), there would be no such meta.

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t quite understand the claims about how people say sPvP is balanced (and WvW isn’t) yet they can also safely say that a GC spec isn’t viable in sPvP when it is in WvW.

Actually, full on berserker isn’t even viable in sPvP with the strict damage caps it has. Your damage will quite literally remain the same running PTV on GC traits and therefore the bunker meta exists on the sole basis that GC countermeasure burst has quite literally no role or identity in the format. When entire build concepts or styles aren’t viable, your mode isn’t balanced. Maybe it’s balanced within the scope of the meta, but that’s just a horrible excuse.

Bunker is the meta because it deals near-optimal DPS while retaining immense survivability. If WvW rules applied (food aside), there would be no such meta.

You’re partially right. PvP is not perfectly balanced and no game mode is probably ever going to be perfectly balanced. I do believe glass cannons are at a slight disadvantage like you do but conquest favoring bunker specs is pretty much a given. There is no doubt however that WvW is ridiculously UNBALANCED because of food/guard stacks/bloodlust etc etc.

My main point is no balance changes should ever happen because of what happens in small scall WvW roaming. It is simply a format that is not supported by Anet or potentially able to be balanced. Even if you normalize stats like PvP then you run into stealth/mobility issues which the conquest game mode actually does a good job of minimizing those advantages. Who cares if you can perma-stealth if you can’t cap or if you can continously disengage if I take the cap point from you. Yet at the same time capture points create imbalance issues because of turrets/AoE/AI.

Bottom line: Play the game and adapt. Nothing is unbeatable which to me means relative balance. No combination of class/build/gear can not be overcome. Meta is Meta. Use it or die.

Bunker is the PvP meta because you only need one guy on a point to keep it from falling under your opponent’s control. Not because of damage output.

Calling people’s competitive spirit into question is a tricky form of leverage.

Just because a game has winners and losers, doesn’t mean people feel like it’s worthy of competition. If a person has state of the game criticisms that are rooted in how the game fails to inspire that; the competitive spirit angle can come off more like trying to get people to overlook or excuse the game’s shortcomings by goading their pride, instead of a well intentioned needling to work their way up the skill curve or create counter strategies.

As an aside: I can’t believe somebody painstakingly photoshopped that Snickers bar to make the word mis-spelled. Subtle troll is subtle.

Narkodx.1472:

Raven.9603:

ventusthunder.5067:

Last night, I dueled a friend from YB, on his condi regen ranger, and 5 minutes into the fight, I had not used my full condi cleanse, nor had I healed once. However, I kept getting him down to about 20% and couldn’t close the gap between 20 and 0. We ended up saying “kitten this” and just /sat.

I know, I was there. :p

What is the problem then? Condi-Bunkers can be beaten

Some people however believe that their special build they made without the help of the forums or google should be able to beat those builds… not happening

I use meta builds because they are meta for a reason

I am not going to think “Shadow Arts d/p is cheesy” while I am facing a perplexity engi

Only thing I think when I am defeated by another player in sPvP or WvW is how can I change my build/weapons/runes to counter that

If it is in the game it is fair – use all the tools available to you to win. Period.

In Angel’s defense, this is the Profession Balance forums. He brought up the point that some of those tools need to be toned down, which with some builds, I agree with. But overall, there’s nothing any of us can do except to keep improving through fights.

People hate the meta because they wholeheartedly believe that any build “not in the meta” is " completely unviable, unreliable and uneffective".

Through this mentality, they effectively discard any chance of creating a counter build to the meta build(s). This idiocy of blindly believing in the “meta” further causes some professions to seem exceedingly weak because they lack a meta build, or exceedingly strong because there is no meta build to counter the strong professions meta build.

People also shoehorn themselves into a so called meta build in the hope of being efficient and successful, but more often then not, they realize that they did certain things better with other setups. However the holy meta dictates that they play this setup, this way, accordingly to this or that youtube video, if not you are doing it wrong and hurting your team. This further undermines individual playstyles, causing people to play the game worse then they would usually do.

TL;DR version:
Meta builds is not the be-all-end-all. They are the most efficient all-round compromise, not the most efficient build of all. Play what you want and what you are comfortable with, you will most likely do better that way.

Raven.9603:

Looking down on the condi meta is the same. It takes less effort and if done right simply isnt counterable in 1v1. If you want to do it, fine, but dont pretend you dont understand why the rest of the community would want the condi meta changed for the better.

There is no condition meta in wvw. There has never been a condition meta in wvw. Not a single day has gone by where Power-based builds dont vastly outnumber Condition-based builds.

Stop perpetuating this myth. Its been a power meta and has been since day one, in all aspects of WvW.

Terrahero.9358:

Raven.9603:

Looking down on the condi meta is the same. It takes less effort and if done right simply isnt counterable in 1v1. If you want to do it, fine, but dont pretend you dont understand why the rest of the community would want the condi meta changed for the better.

There is no condition meta in wvw. There has never been a condition meta in wvw. Not a single day has gone by where Power-based builds dont vastly outnumber Condition-based builds.

Stop perpetuating this myth. Its been a power meta and has been since day one, in all aspects of WvW.

yup, even in roaming it is mostly power builds. But by now, all the good roamers knows how to deal with power builds and barely take notice of them, then they meet a pureblood condi build and get wrecked due to lack of cleanses and the failure to recognize when to run. Therefore they take notice of said condi build and this cycle continues until they believe “condies is the new meta”. Because they “see no power builds”.

Its how the human brain works – you remember the odd one out, not all the “normal” ones.

Vox Hollow.2736:

As an aside: I can’t believe somebody painstakingly photoshopped that Snickers bar to make the word mis-spelled. Subtle troll is subtle.

Mother of God…..

What? Condi meta? The condi meta is over. There’s not a single top team who uses a pure condi bunker. Engineers are now Celestial or P/P Condi (definetely not “bunkers”), Necromancers run full power, condi Warriors belong to Hot Join and Rangers are completely outside the meta.

Narkodx.1472:

You’re partially right. PvP is not perfectly balanced and no game mode is probably ever going to be perfectly balanced. I do believe glass cannons are at a slight disadvantage like you do but conquest favoring bunker specs is pretty much a given. There is no doubt however that WvW is ridiculously UNBALANCED because of food/guard stacks/bloodlust etc etc.

Not even, though. I’d still argue WvW is more balanced in the grand scope of things. The fact I can go into WvW and run an effective GC spec through skilled play with no food or stacks and kill other players on max stacks and food, and then go into sPvP with the same build and deal less than 1/3 of the damage from the caps while retaining low health clearly demonstrate major flaws with the format and the limits on feasible diversity while shaping and “forcing” players into a particular meta or build path.

As far as WvW goes, the top builds in roaming and dueling are Condi or hybrid builds. Zerker builds are much less forgiving compared to Condition specs which is about apply and play passively as your conditions tick on targets. WvW roaming now a days is riddled with condi engis, P/D Thieves, PU Condi mesmers. and such. I just learned to accept it.

Also as any sort of melee roaming class you’re not going to win against a PU condi clone death mesmer if they’re any sort of decent. They have to mess up big time to lose.

http://youtu.be/-W3RVKGoih8?t=6m55s – A example how a PU condi death build fairs against most melee foes. Nonetheless I just accept there are certain fights you can’t really win against shrug

Spvp on the other hand is a game mode of just point capping and team oriented play. Hot joins is just grounds to having fun and testing builds. The who game mode is entirely not about killing but scoring points for your team by capping and holding caps. Which is why Debunk engi and hambow warriors are OP here.

meta is miserable
there is no counter to condi builds. running max clears doesn’t give you an advantage vs condi builds, NOT running max clears means you have 0 chance vs them

Poplolita.2638:

You guys are aware that there is no such thing as condition meta in tpvp?

Also, to those who think a power build most be build around power/precision/ferocitity, have you ever faced a celestial d/d elem, and axebow/hambow warrior with soldier amulet? Those two are the best build in the game. They are the reason why this meta is called BUNKER META

That is because pro teams provide great condi removal for their allies. Its the pub games where condis get out of line… I personally don’t have much beef with condi based builds except for this one 0/6/0/4/4 build on a necro thats just completely absurd at dishing out conditions with a staff :|

Anyone who thinks PU Mesmer is an auto win.. hasn’t played a Mesmer lately.

Grimreaper.5370:

Poplolita.2638:

You guys are aware that there is no such thing as condition meta in tpvp?

Also, to those who think a power build most be build around power/precision/ferocitity, have you ever faced a celestial d/d elem, and axebow/hambow warrior with soldier amulet? Those two are the best build in the game. They are the reason why this meta is called BUNKER META

That is because pro teams provide great condi removal for their allies. Its the pub games where condis get out of line… I personally don’t have much beef with condi based builds except for this one 0/6/0/4/4 build on a necro thats just completely absurd at dishing out conditions with a staff :|

You are basically saying: Condition is weak against a teams with condi removal, and strong against a team with no condi removal. Do you want it be weak against everything?

Also, it’s 0/6/4/0/4, not 0/6/0/4/4.

Raven.9603:

Mayama.1854:

Like seriously why do people whine so much about meta builds like celestial or condi bunker specs. Saying those builds are lame or unfair. Thats basicaly like saying that the winner of a car race is lame and unfair because he has the best car / best team.

Not using the best horse you have available for a horse race and than complaining that you cant win is rather childish.

When the game first came out, there was a very carefully constructed amount of conditions that each class could apply, with fairly limited max durations. there were certain gear types that simply did not exist; namely Dire, Apothecary, Settlers. Likewise, every class had a carefully selected number of condition removals. Some classes had enough that condition based enemies were no threat (if they spec’d them), and other classes had very few because they were designed to be weak against conditions.

this was great because

• Condi specs were very viable, but some classes could counter play them by taking builds that had more clears
• Condi gear selections had a weakness. If you went rabid you werent going to have a lot of health. If you went carrion you werent going to have a lot of toughness. niether were heavy on healing power so they didnt have too much sustain.
• While you can’t exactly counter power builds with trait and skill selections, gear has existed since launch that counters power builds very hard, namely soldiers, knights, clerics.
• Condi food did not exist, so conditions that were balanced around lasting 10 seconds lasted 10 seconds.

Now…

• Introduction of perplexity runes, torment runes, torment sigils, and certain class changes have dramatically increased the amount of conditions normally applied. Despite this, the amount of condi clears did not really increase with very few exceptions. This means NO CLASS IN THE GAME (with the possible exception of necromancers) has enough clears to flat out counter a condition user anymore.
• The items above also introduced powerful conditions to classes that did not normally posses them, namely perplexity runes. Now necromancers are applying a ton of confusion stacks on fear, p/d thieves can spam interrupts until their application is successful, and classes that already had access to confusion now had approximately double the amount. further, it took forever for these blatantly OP runes which should have been removed to even get a cooldown. the game was not designed around necromancers applying a ton of confusion stacks.
• the introduction of condition duration food amplifies all of these problems, making conditions last for huge durations forcing the victim to eat a counter food to normal it out (which in turn leads all condi users to use the duration food, less they go against someone who ate lemongrass and find themselves less effective, further excarbating the cycle).
• the amount of stats needed to be successful as a condition player was much, much lower than their power based counter parts (no need for ferocity, and only with the introduction of on-crit conditions have condi users found a minor need for crit), which allows them to concentrate much more on survivability. while this was previously countered by lack of condi bunker armor, the introduction of the armor gave them the green light to stack condition damage, and their choice of healing power, toughness and vit without having to mix, match and sacrifice like everyone else.

I hope that wasnt too long and that it adequetly covers it. There is nothing wrong with condition users and people dont hate condition users. They hate the state condition specs have been allowed to evolve too, and in a few cases they hate the lack of counter play (eg no one likes p/d thieves, PU mesmers, not because of condis but because it takes so little ability to win and so much ability to defeat, no one likes having 10+ seconds of confusion stacks on them, because unless you have a clear, it basically forces you not to play for that amount of time).

+1

Power-creep…

ArenaNet is just not good with it.

Thanks.

Mayama.1854:

Like seriously why do people whine so much about meta builds like celestial or condi bunker specs. Saying those builds are lame or unfair. Thats basicaly like saying that the winner of a car race is lame and unfair because he has the best car / best team.

Not using the best horse you have available for a horse race and than complaining that you cant win is rather childish.

What you say is totally logical yet totally going to be ignored by the whiners.

I think as far as MMO PvP goes, it’s generally not a genre where you can assume a game ever stabilizes its balance. There’s just too freakishly many variables and constant changes to the game evolved.

And once you have a never-stable game – which you will have – you cannot quite avoid having your choice of character and playstyle not always be #1. But, if you compare other pro games, the players tend to play S-tier only. Or they’re aware of the limitation and have a strategy which involves playing a lower tier.

Most players however will try to pick a char who’s currently at the top competitive level. Only… in a MMO, that character is supposed to not be top any more soon-ish. If it stays there, the players who picked something else before are annoyed no one is levelling the playing field. If it doesn’t stay there, the players who “picked S-tier” are annoyed they have to reroll.

Generally speaking this can only be avoided by constantly shifting things around, which incidentally means no proper meta as everything is too volatile.