Guild Wars 2

Ah, I forgot about the Necros, kiiiinda. Isn’t it that Necros are only needed in a limited number, a bit like some other classes are used? They don’t have free stacking, they don’t scale linearly. Although to be fair, they’re close-ish. They provide one wanted role in 5man, another in 15man and another in 100man, kinda. Just stacking is still a bit off.

Using wvw as a reference to balance is kind of pointless.

spoj.9672:

Using wvw as a reference to balance is kind of pointless.

Why? Is one out of three game modes not worthy for all classes to be on the same level.

If your point is that large scale battles are never balanced anyway, than you could simply throw balance out of this game.

Noone needs balance in PvE, as all content can be done with every class anyway… Sounds great.
Noone needs balance in WvW, as there is never balance anyway… Oh, good.

Balance around PvP? Nah, only around tPvP, so we have this great eSports stuff going on. Works pretty well, with two out of eight classes (war/guard) being on every team. Looks totally balanced to me.

In the end, who needs balance? Why is anyone moaning anyway?

BS.

spoj.9672:

Using wvw as a reference to balance is kind of pointless.

Why?
This gets spewed around a lot, and no one ever says anything about why that’d be.

See, I can do the same thing: Using sPvP as a reference to balance is kind of pointless.

The easiest way to understand the multitude of answers to the title is for any non-mesmer:
- play mesmer in any game mode, using any build you like except PU – that trait will blind you like fools gold so it’s not allowed. You can still go 6 in chaos if you like, but must pick another trait.
- report your findings of personal experience playing mesmer in all the different game modes – pvp, wvw (both large groups and small scale) and pve. Builds used, and situations faced.

Bonus points for
- not using staff or greatsword
- using focus as one offhand
- not using speed boost runes
- using mantra builds in pvp or wvw
- using phantasm builds in large scale fights
- using shatter builds in a dungeon
- fighting skilled thieves, warriors, eles, engis, guardians, necros, and even very good rangers!
- probably some more bonus points, but I can’t pull any more off the top of my head!

For anyone wanting hardcore mode, try playing Sword+Focus and Scepter+Pistol 4/4/0/0/6, 2/6/0/0/6, 2/4/2/0/6 or 2/4/0/2/6 full zerker shatter in pvp and wvw, then come back and give your opinions. Use of staff or greatsword not allowed for hardcore mode. :p

For anyone wanting super hardcore mode, there’s a variety of interrupt and lockdown builds that might tickle your fancy!

Anyone feel free to say if there’s more to add – I can’t think of everything in one moment!

Also inb4 you tell me to do the same for another class – because that is beside the point. The question in the title is “why are mesmers moaning?”, not “why are <insert class here> moaning?”, so I’m not the one who has to understand the answer to the question. In any case if you look back through my posts in this thread you’ll see I’m very much in favour of ranger buffs for one!

Carighan.6758:

This gets spewed around a lot, and no one ever says anything about why that’d be.

See, I can do the same thing: Using sPvP as a reference to balance is kind of pointless.

WvW is not based on fighting others one on one even small group fights are not that common ( they should be but they aren’t). On top of that you have siege giving anyone big damage and AoE if he puts it in a decent.
WvW is objective based so what each individual does often gets boiled down to soaking up damage and dealing as much AoE possible as much as possible. So classes like Mesmer with virtually no AoE just are in a very odd spot. Yes there is roaming but even roaming is always that meh thing as you could be rolled over by a Zerg randomly.

And yes it is true the same could be said about sPvP as it is a severely different game mode. Thing simply is Anet really wants to make it work. Don’t ask me what they think with that or what but they want to make esports happen very hard and they don’t want to fully split PvE and PvP.

Carighan.6758:

Ah, I forgot about the Necros, kiiiinda. Isn’t it that Necros are only needed in a limited number, a bit like some other classes are used? They don’t have free stacking, they don’t scale linearly. Although to be fair, they’re close-ish. They provide one wanted role in 5man, another in 15man and another in 100man, kinda. Just stacking is still a bit off.

No, you can brung a lot as long as you have enough guardians to give them stab, making them scale semi linearly as you get more AoE spike damage the more you bring, while there’s no benefit to have more than 2-3 mesmers (only for double triple veils too). It’s just that you can usually only have up to two necros on a GvG team. Since while they don’t have blasts or fields worth blasting, the spike AoE is very high and death shroud makes them the tankiest kind of peripheral. Their biggest issue is that they are dead if the enemy notices them, but gank squads work to protect them from being picked off.

A typical GvG team for 15 man will have 4 warriors 4 guardians, 2 staff eles, 2 well necros, and 3 gank. A mesmer can be substituted for a necro or for a gank slot but only if the group actually wants to use veil in their tactics. Gank is usually 2 thieves and a DD ele but eviscerate warriors sometimes wind up there too. My guild once ran a ranger on gank for entangle long before I joined my guild, but for whatever reason it didn’t work out well at all. I’ll have to ask why.

LaronX.8079:

WvW is not based on fighting others one on one even small group fights are not that common ( they should be but they aren’t). On top of that you have siege giving anyone big damage and AoE if he puts it in a decent.
WvW is objective based so what each individual does often gets boiled down to soaking up damage and dealing as much AoE possible as much as possible. So classes like Mesmer with virtually no AoE just are in a very odd spot. Yes there is roaming but even roaming is always that meh thing as you could be rolled over by a Zerg randomly.

Yeah, but like I said above, just like PvE balance is very different from sPvP balance, WvW balance is yet again different, relying on a balance of scaling (the scale being surrounding group-size) and a balance of need.These are very different from sPvP ofc, where everyone wants to and ideally needs to be self-sufficient, you pretty much exactly don’t want that to happen in WvW. :P

LaronX.8079:

And yes it is true the same could be said about sPvP as it is a severely different game mode. Thing simply is Anet really wants to make it work. Don’t ask me what they think with that or what but they want to make esports happen very hard and they don’t want to fully split PvE and PvP.

Yeah, I know. Which is so odd, they advertised their WvW and PvE all over the place, the game got commended like hell for those two modes, and yet all their balance team does is go ostrich-mode and stick their head into the sPvP-sand.

It’s… yeah. No clue. I don’t really think the devs involved quite understand how damaging this is for player morale, either.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Lazze.9870:

Bryzy.2719:

You’re right in that Rangers do not have a single build that is incredibly strong; nor, might I add, do they have a build that another profession can’t do better. This is the precise reason Rangers are unwanted in PvE

The only reasons rangers are unwanted in PvE are 1) people’s lack of knowledge about what ranger can bring and 2) ranger players own lack of knowledge about what their class can do.

I thought it was the lack of group support options outside of spirits (which are easily killed) and shouts through that one trait in the Nature Magic line.

Hence what I said: people’s lack of knowledge. You’re forgetting Spotter.
The frost spirit isnt easily killed at all, unless you’re completey useless at placing it in strategic spots.

Spotter and frost spirit is an overall roughly 12-14 % damage boost to your team. And a ranger that knows what he/she is doing also knows how to keep this buff up pretty much all the time.

You also got a reflect, some vuln stacks, fury uptime, healing spring and other minor stuff that other classes do better, but it should still be mentioned as group utilities..

The ranger’s personal dps isn’t all that bad either. Not at all.

Carighan.6758:

spoj.9672:

Using wvw as a reference to balance is kind of pointless.

Why?
This gets spewed around a lot, and no one ever says anything about why that’d be.

See, I can do the same thing: Using sPvP as a reference to balance is kind of pointless.

Small group fights and 1v1 fights come under the same balance philosophies as tpvp. Large scale battles are impossible to balance according to class. The only things you can consider in zerg on zerg is things like AOE cap etc. So if a class has too much aoe then it probably needs changing. But that can come under PvE balance as trash clearing is important. Ex: Is this class able to wipe out an entire group of 20+ mobs in one go? If yes then it is probably far too strong and would most likely be overpowered in large scale WvW battles aswell.

Basically PvE balance and tPvP balance pretty much cover everything in WvW. So there is no point focusing on a 3rd gametype to balance separately. It unnecessarily complicates things.

spoj.9672:

Basically PvE balance and tPvP balance pretty much cover everything in WvW. So there is no point focusing on a 3rd gametype to balance separately. It unnecessarily complicates things.

No because both modes dont consider stuff like how well does a class scale if you bring more of them. Like warriors are scale way to good with themself. PvE or PvP will not balance a 10+ warrior melee train because both modes never have to deal with such a situation.

And you cant balance around situations like that…..

spoj.9672:

Basically PvE balance and tPvP balance pretty much cover everything in WvW. So there is no point focusing on a 3rd gametype to balance separately. It unnecessarily complicates things.

But if anything, DAoC has shown long ago that this is not the case. The important metric for RvR-balance is not whether your class is self-sufficient and well-rounded (sPvP) or equal in raw ouput (PvE).
It helps. A little bit. But actually not all that much.

Neither would WvW balance really help the other way around, because in both tPvP and PvE group size is predetermined (removes one point from the balance equation for WvW) and in dungeons and tPvP you cannot bring all classes (while WvW needs to be balanced so that you always (always!) want to bring all classes.

Carighan.6758:

spoj.9672:

Using wvw as a reference to balance is kind of pointless.

Why?
This gets spewed around a lot, and no one ever says anything about why that’d be.

See, I can do the same thing: Using sPvP as a reference to balance is kind of pointless.

Wvw is a poor judgement of balance because it has pve stats, which aren’t balanced for pvp encounters. When you also get things like consumables (foods, oils, stones, crystals) and various stat combinations exclusive to pve gear and exclusive rune sets (perplexity, tormenting, etc) and exclusive sigils, yeah. Also there is ascended gear which is not a huge difference, but compare a non-asc player to a fully asc player and it is noticeable which I’d be willing to bet a lot of players have not bothered getting full asc just yet. Also it’s just a food war in there with kitten like, “Oh, he has 40% condi duration food, I should counter it on the fly with my -40% condi duration food”. It’s pathetic.

S/Tpvp is the better judge because things are “better” controlled in there. I’m not saying its balanced in there, just they have a better fix on things without ridiculous stat combinations like 100+ % condi duration or 230%+ critical damage.

NinjaEd.3946:

S/Tpvp is the better judge because things are “better” controlled in there. I’m not saying its balanced in there, just they have a better fix on things without ridiculous stat combinations like 100+ % condi duration or 230%+ critical damage.

(edit – shortened)
It seems to me that the “balance” which is usually talked about is implied to be that if one player of class X and one player of class Y happen to walk into each other in WvW, they ought to decide who lives and who dies only play player skill. Right? Ideally, ofc.

But… that’s not what “WvW balance” would be. It wasn’t what RvR-balance in DAoC was either, not nearly so. That “I want to duel and have class not matter” is the tPvP balance mentality. Scaled to 2v2~3v3 (on average) there, but same issue.

Ross Biddle.2367:

You did remind me of this though. Full zerk gear, typical phantasm build in a 1v1 vs warrior. While it doesn’t address the question adequately it does express an example in the meta.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrpfPrWMRWo

KK, the problem with this video is that you chose to fight a Warrior, the only profession that ArenaNet has chosen to have no weaknesses or drawbacks. If you want to show the issues a Mesmer has, you really should choose to fight one of the other professions so you are on more equal footing.

Thanks.

Michaeas Magister.1589:

Ross Biddle.2367:

You did remind me of this though. Full zerk gear, typical phantasm build in a 1v1 vs warrior. While it doesn’t address the question adequately it does express an example in the meta.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrpfPrWMRWo

KK, the problem with this video is that you chose to fight a Warrior, the only profession that ArenaNet has chosen to have no weaknesses or drawbacks. If you want to show the issues a Mesmer has, you really should choose to fight one of the other professions so you are on more equal footing.

Thanks.

I’m not sure if he recorded that video or just found it elsewehere.

But I think its ironic to show what actually is OP in this game..

Michaeas Magister.1589:

KK, the problem with this video is that you chose to fight a Warrior, the only profession that ArenaNet has chosen to have no weaknesses or drawbacks. If you want to show the issues a Mesmer has, you really should choose to fight one of the other professions so you are on more equal footing.

Thanks.

Are you seriously telling people to look to 1v1 to get their balance input? Really?

Carighan.6758:

Michaeas Magister.1589:

KK, the problem with this video is that you chose to fight a Warrior, the only profession that ArenaNet has chosen to have no weaknesses or drawbacks. If you want to show the issues a Mesmer has, you really should choose to fight one of the other professions so you are on more equal footing.

Thanks.

Are you seriously telling people to look to 1v1 to get their balance input? Really?

Not at all.

All I am saying is that fighting against a profession that has no drawbacks is not a good example with which to show imbalance as you have already started on an un-level playing field.

I am quite aware that PvP balance is based off of just a few players at the very highest competitive levels and that the rest of us just simply have to adjust around that.

Thanks.

Ah, ofc. Sorry, misread that.