Guild Wars 2

Conditions need a rework, the game is losing its flare more and more. In fact the current condition style game play is atrocious I recall not to long ago people whinning burst damage. But now its just condition burst. Where is the fun in that? Anet you need to rework conditions if you are going to rework crit dmg.

In what game mode? Because you screwed the pooch on your title line.

thefantasticg.3984:

In what game mode? Because you screwed the pooch on your title line.

Ty

Everyone knows this. It has been like this for A LONG time. Don’t hold your breath because it will likely not be touched until 2015 the way they are going….

Well this needs to be addressed.

Conditions a problem in WvW?
will all the aoe condi removal/runes/food you should not have issues with condition classes.

if you run solo you need to learn how to dodge Sig of spite.

Conditions are definitely an issue for small teams and roaming. Don’t pretend they’re not, people.

I like to see small changes rather than large sweeping over halls. How about fixing the condi duration +/- food before doing anything else and see how that changes things.

Brando.1374:

Conditions a problem in WvW?
will all the aoe condi removal/runes/food you should not have issues with condition classes.

if you run solo you need to learn how to dodge Sig of spite.

Come back when you play other classes other than Necro and Thief in WvW. Try dodging all the conditions that Engineers throw, with PLENTY of variation in build to still give anyone trouble unless you specifically build, trait, rune, sigil, gear for that ONE counter and be useless everywhere else.

1 Vs 1 = Conditions broken
Small group = Conditions Broken
Zerg/Blob = Conditions Weak

Until that is fixed, conditions will continue to be a problem. You can NEVER have enough removal to remove all the conditions that are spammed on you – this isnt even including the likes of Spite and then you have like no damage to kill them as they are all bunker Condition builds…

Kadin.2356:

I like to see small changes rather than large sweeping over halls. How about fixing the condi duration +/- food before doing anything else and see how that changes things.

Duration isnt the problem – it is how many can be applied and how fast they can be applied. You can have like 5+ conditions on you in SECONDS. They need to reduce the number of conditions Necromancers and Engineers have to start it, remove Confusion from Engineer, Remove Burning (aka Dhuumfire) from Necromancers

Then you need to look at other classes – Warriors have insane condition builds doing great damage, insane conditions as well as being of hight health and armor as well as having plenty of defensive skills. Then you get Thief that can apply like 5-6 conditions in seconds, jump into stealth and then redo it all over again when they come out.

The only instance I’ve seen in which conditions seemed overpowered was 1v1 mesmer.

They are so weak in moderate to large scale WvW as to border on irrelevant.

Ashin.5986:

The only instance I’ve seen in which conditions seemed overpowered was 1v1 mesmer.

They are so weak in moderate to large scale WvW as to border on irrelevant.

Then you must not WvW often, Engineer condition builds are insane. I would personally have them being stronger than Necromancer myself and even they are simply insane if you are not built specifically to counter conditions and in that case you will not be killing them.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Ashin.5986:

The only instance I’ve seen in which conditions seemed overpowered was 1v1 mesmer.

They are so weak in moderate to large scale WvW as to border on irrelevant.

Then you must not WvW often, Engineer condition builds are insane. I would personally have them being stronger than Necromancer myself and even they are simply insane if you are not built specifically to counter conditions and in that case you will not be killing them.

a necro loosing to another condi class just shows that is a bad necro who does not know how or when to xfer or clear condi’s.

personally my build the trait structure stays the same, traits change for certain situations (gvg, roaming, dueling) Utilities also change.

Now if you are solo roaming in wvw and know you cant win vs that class then blink/shadowstep/run away since we cant catch you. come back when we are not paying attention to gank us.

Duels – is you know its a condi class and you dont have the removal to win, dont fight us.

small group 5-10. 1 condi class will have a bit of an impact but power/sustain is better, if you have 3-4 condi classes then yes you will not have the ability to clear all those condi’s.

GvG 15v15 – if you want to run a condi class (necro) you will need at least 3 using the same build and skills to even come close to pressuring the other guilds condi removal.

zergs – GvG scenario but x10

Brando.1374:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Ashin.5986:

The only instance I’ve seen in which conditions seemed overpowered was 1v1 mesmer.

They are so weak in moderate to large scale WvW as to border on irrelevant.

Then you must not WvW often, Engineer condition builds are insane. I would personally have them being stronger than Necromancer myself and even they are simply insane if you are not built specifically to counter conditions and in that case you will not be killing them.

a necro loosing to another condi class just shows that is a bad necro who does not know how or when to xfer or clear condi’s.

personally my build the trait structure stays the same, traits change for certain situations (gvg, roaming, dueling) Utilities also change.

Now if you are solo roaming in wvw and know you cant win vs that class then blink/shadowstep/run away since we cant catch you. come back when we are not paying attention to gank us.

Duels – is you know its a condi class and you dont have the removal to win, dont fight us.

small group 5-10. 1 condi class will have a bit of an impact but power/sustain is better, if you have 3-4 condi classes then yes you will not have the ability to clear all those condi’s.

GvG 15v15 – if you want to run a condi class (necro) you will need at least 3 using the same build and skills to even come close to pressuring the other guilds condi removal.

zergs – GvG scenario but x10

Did i say anything about Condition Vs Condition? Even then, i would say it would be tight between Necro and Engineer. Engi have much better defence and some decent interrupts that are a serious threat to Necromancer.

Easier said than done, seeing as how most roamers are Condition builds.I saw tonight – Condition Ranger, Engineer, Necromancer, Warrior and Thief. Not all together but saw them all during my nights WvW time All roaming. Saw plenty in small groups as well. Pretty much only safe place is Zergs. Due to all the AoE condition removal that goes around.

Conditions are not the problem in WvW…CC is.

Bleed/poison/confusion/burn/torment? Pop a condi-remover.

Daze/pull/knockback/knockdown/immobilize/fear? You’re screwed.

Yes, despite what Anet may think, Immobilize IS a CC…because it’s one of the moves that turns off dodging while you have it.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Conditions are not the problem in WvW…CC is.

Bleed/poison/confusion/burn/torment? Pop a condi-remover.

So after you have removed them conditions. What do you do about the very next condition spam where you are given Bleeds, Poison, Confusion and others within like 3-5seconds?

EVERY class needs to have condition removal on weapon skills but just for themselves, limit the AoE condition removal but add more player only removal. It is the only way to counter the CONSTANT condition spam that Condition builds are.

It isn’t even about playing well and using the right conditions at the right time, its about spamming as many as you can onto the target as fast as you can and then repeating until that person is dead.

Either Condition builds need to have the cool down of said skills increased or classes need to be given better removal options. A Engineer can have EASILY 10+ stacks of confusion, Burning, bleeding, Poison and others on you within seconds.

Pretty much every Condition Engineer i see runs with Tool Kit, Grenade Kit and Bomb Kit which gives access to Burning, confusion, Blindness, Cripple, Immobilize (Bomb Kit) vul, Bleeding, Cripple, Confusion, (Tool Kit) and Bleeding, Blindness, Chill, Poison (Grenade Kit) and lets not forget the Poison, Smoke, Fire Fields. The Block, The Pull, Blast Finisher. That is ignoring the weapons which are likely Pistol/Shield which offers Bleeding on auto attack, Poison, Blindness, Confusion projectile reflection, Knockback and Blast finisher as well as Block that stuns or Knocks line Daze….

That is without any traits, sigils, or anything else. That is simply too much.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Easier said than done, seeing as how most roamers are Condition builds.I saw tonight – Condition Ranger, Engineer, Necromancer, Warrior and Thief. Not all together but saw them all during my nights WvW time All roaming. Saw plenty in small groups as well. Pretty much only safe place is Zergs. Due to all the AoE condition removal that goes around.

Yes… there are zerg builds and there are roaming builds, and I think that’s a good thing.

It would be convenient if I could bring my roaming necro to big fights, but I can’t. I was disappointed at first, but I learned to adapt and now I like the challenge.

Sure… WvW is a crazy place, it’s in a constant need of polishing, but I like the basic premise that direct damage and condition damage shine in different settings. I think of it as the difference between melee and ranged weapons.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Conditions are not the problem in WvW…CC is.

Bleed/poison/confusion/burn/torment? Pop a condi-remover.

So after you have removed them conditions. What do you do about the very next condition spam where you are given Bleeds, Poison, Confusion and others within like 3-5seconds?

EVERY class needs to have condition removal on weapon skills but just for themselves, limit the AoE condition removal but add more player only removal. It is the only way to counter the CONSTANT condition spam that Condition builds are.

Why? For a skill-focused game, any offense must be greater than the respective defense. In fact, this is the reason why PvE is so heavily dominated by pure DPS: the defense is greater than the related offense. Tip: the same avoidance techniques you use against power builds also work on condition builds.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why? For a skill-focused game, any offense must be greater than the respective defense. In fact, this is the reason why PvE is so heavily dominated by pure DPS: the defense is greater than the related offense. Tip: the same avoidance techniques you use against power builds also work on condition builds.

For a start, it would stop the simple unskilled condition based gameplay as it is now – throw everything you have at the target, keep spamming auto attacks that also inflict conditions and wait for them to die.

That is pretty much it as it is now, NO class has the power to counter the conditions. Look at the likes of Engineer and Necromancer as just one example – Conditions on pretty much EVERY skill they have. Auto attacks that inflict conditions as well, so while the skills they used to get you full of conditions are on cool down, they can just move to the next skill and the next skill – what about the other person? That person has a VERY limited number of condition removals.

Is it not enough with how damaging these conditions are that they also have to be EASILY applied and EASILY reapplied once they are removed. It makes removing them pointless because within seconds you are going to be pumped full of conditions again – then what do you do? you dont have anywhere the access to condition removals as they have access to conditions, just look at the Engineer list of conditions. that was from a weapon set and 3 utilties which also offer blasts, fields, blocks, knockbacks, dazes. They could go with Healing Turret get some great healing as well as stealth.

Anet has a choice:

1) reduce the access to conditions – this would involve removing certain conditions from classes that should never have gotten them to begin with (Burning Necro, Confusion Engineer and Torment Warrior spring to mind) then adjust the cool downs of them skills. Remove Conditions from ALL auto attacks that these classes have as well. They dont need conditions on EVERYTHING they have.

2) Increase Self Condition Removal – This would involve going over EVERY class and EVERY weapon and making adjustments to skills to give classes more accessible access to condition removal. Things like Cleansing Fire – 3 conditions removed on a 40second cool down!? that needs to be dropped to like 20seconds and increased to 5 conditions and other classes would need the same.

It is going to be VERY tough to balance, but so far they have been doing a TERRIBLE job at it and been going in the WRONG direction.

I still don’t follow. Even a hyper-dedicated condition build still deals less damage than most power builds do. Maximum damage for necro scepter auto attack chain? 2k-2k-2.9k (on a 30/30/0/10 build running full Ascended Carrion plus 25 stacks of corruption and sigil of bursting as well as regular foods, including crits and Barbed Precision , but not Dhuumfire or sigils due to ICD’s screwing with the calculations). Very high, but most of that 2.9k is poison, so multiple chains decrease its damage.

Even so, many power builds deal at least that also on their auto-attacks. The difference? Multiple rounds of a power build don’t reduce the damage dealt, plus a second person applying direct damage doesn’t impact the damage dealt.

Keep in mind the numbers I presented cannot be achieved in PvP. There, the maximum is 1200-1200-2000, which is significantly lower than what power builds can accomplish in the same setting.

You want to fix condition builds rolling you? Treat them exactly as you would power builds. I mean EXACTLY the same. You get overwhelmed because you feel the need to cleanse everything ASAP, but don’t attempt to leave before the damage has really started to ramp up. By the time people run from a condition build, they’re already dead if they don’t have a cleanse because they took too many hits. They stayed in there much longer than they would have against a power build.

That’s the nature of DoT’s: you don’t realize how much they hurt because you don’t see it all at once. When you do notice, it’s too late. Get it into your head that all of those attacks are hitting for that much and you will be far better off. If you screw up with this, you can still cleanse. You actually have a fairly large window to reduce the damage you take. Each of those attacks I mentioned in the WvW setting? You have a 12 second window after being hit to reduce the damage you take from the attack.

A big problem with conditions in WvW is how Rare Veggie Pizza dilutes the debate.

Dee Jay.2460:

A big problem with conditions in WvW is how Rare Veggie Pizza dilutes the debate.

At the same time, though Lemongrass and Poultry Soup dilutes it even more (either cancelling out the pizza or dropping it down further as not everyone runs pizza). Heck, even in PvP, there are Runes of Melandru, which provide a -25% damage reduction to all conditions. Direct Damage has nothing like that fighting it.

I honestly believe that conditions are not the problem at all; and they are no more powerful in WvW than direct damage. Instead I contend that most players are leaving themselves obscenely vulnerable to it, and getting annoyed when their weakness is exploited. I know I’ve ticked a few people off, but please hear… read me out.

Trying to find a proper armor set for a build everyone tries to min/max to simply get the most out of their build, and though defense is definitely needed in WvW, far more than in PvE, offense is still the primary focus of nearly all hard-core gamers, simply because the ability to kill quickly is often far more important than living forever… So most people pick armor that has 2 offensive stats (power/ precision/ critical damage/ condition damage) that have good synergy together (and to their build), then take a third stat that is defensive (healing/ toughness/ vitality). If you do that, 99% of the time, you will end up extremely susceptible to conditions. Why? After reviewing the armor sets, there’s actually a very good reason… You have no added vitality at all.

All min-max-able armor sets that have Vitality as a stat (thus ignoring Celestial completely), are either defensive (2 defensive stats, 1 offensive) or the 2 offensive stats do not have good Synergy in the vast majority of builds. Don’t believe me? Here is a complete list…

Soldier’s – Power/ Vitality/ Toughness – 2 defensive stats.
Valkyrie’s – Power/ Vitality/ Critical Damage – Unless you split armor set Critical Hit Chance is 4% making the Critical Damage virtually useless.
Sentinel’s – Vitality/ Power/ Toughness – 2 defensive stats (and crazy expensive).
Shaman’s – Vitality/ Condition Damage/ Healing – 2 defensive stats.
of the Shaman – Vitality/ Power/ Healing – 2 defensive stats.
Carrion – Condition Damage/ Power/ Vitality – no Synergy. Both Condition Damage primary and Power primary builds would rather have Precision for sigils or damage.
Dire – Condition Damage/ Vitality/ Toughness – 2 defensive stats.
Magi’s – Healing/ Precision/ Vitality – 2 defensive stats (and virtually worthless).

Toughness doesn’t have that issue, thanks to Rabid and two versions of Knights stats, but toughness does nothing against conditions. So what it comes down to is you are FORCED to choose, the ideal offense with a huge weakness to conditions, OR the ideal all around defense but mediocre offense at best.

I would not be surprised if that was an intentional move by ANet to force mixed armor, but it’s a choice that you must make. The only truly balanced armor set is celestial, but few builds can make that work as it’s so scattered. Most people, when given the choice, take a weakness to conditions even without realizing it. What it comes down to is all true min-maxers are forced into the same weakness – conditions.

So in the end, people are going on and on about ‘broken conditions’ in WvW, but in all reality, to a conditions opponent, they’re nothing more than a glass cannon begging to be shattered.

The issue is condition duration and the fact that i can get 100% of it without even worrying about runes. Thats the first thing i tell guildies who play conditions is “Go grab a koicake”. Full duration doubles their damage, crowd control, and in some cases defensive abilities. It needs to be reworked just like crit damage is. If full critical damage and precision gets you x3 damage output, then you should need to apply that many stat points to get double in so many abilites. This would force people to take condition specific traits to empower them more.

Edit: and right after that they can rework boon duration so that i stop capping out at 95% on my guardian

Double Edit: I would really like to hear people say “I use fire and cripple” or “I use poison and weakness” rather than"I use conditions"

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Try dodging all the conditions that Engineers throw.

What makes you think you should be able to dodge all conditions someone throws at you?

A condition has the same check as direct-damage before it lands. Dodge, block, miss, immune, range. If you could evade all of the conditions that means you can effectively avoid getting hit by anything. And you would litterally be unkillable by any means.

I think one of the issues people have with conditions and the people that eat Pizza is that they would rather NOT eat lemongrass soup to compensate. They would prefer to eat foods that give more damage such as 100 power and 10 percent crit.

That is a personal choice they are making. Many of those eating that pizza would rather eat something else IMHO but feel the need to do so so as to optimize damage.

In short it not so much conditions and the food , it is people feeling they are forced to compromise their ideal build in order to compensate which in fact should be part of the game.

If one does not want an armor set or food that helps one deal with conditions, then quite obviously they should be more susceptible to conditions.

I myself have a condition build but do not eat pizza. I count on applying shorter duration conditions that tick higher instead. In the heat of battle it my hope the enemy burns his cleanses faster due to those higher ticks as they really can not tell too easily the bleed on them is going to run its duration in 5 seconds instead of 7. If I run into a guy in Melandru and that has eaten soup my effectiveness plummets. I try and deal with that rather then lay the blame on the soup.