Guild Wars 2

MIrra.3604:

Physical damage is mitigated by
Armor –
Protection –
Weakness –
Blind-
Invul-
Block-
Evade
etc

There you go. I listed some example to further explain my comment of “direct damage is mitigated by a lot of things.”

Condition damage is mitigated by
- condi duration
- immunities
- condi cleanse
- Blind
- Invul
- Block
- Evade
etc

every single condi attack is telegraphed. they take a while to do their full dmg. it is ur fault if u don’t have enough condi cleanse.

Keira Ferland.5619:

every single condi attack is telegraphed. they take a while to do their full dmg. it is ur fault if u don’t have enough condi cleanse.

I wouldn’t say “every single” attack is telegraphed. Can you let me know how I can precisely know when a necro will Doom (fear) me?

whyme.3281:

Condition damage is mitigated by
- condi duration
- immunities
- condi cleanse
- Blind
- Invul
- Block
- Evade
etc

-Anti-Condi duration isn’t a stat you can build for like Toughness is to counter damage.

-Immunity works against everything.

-Condi cleanse is viable (obviously) however in contrast conditions are much easier to apply than they are to cleanse as the fight goes on.

-Blind/block/evade all work against attacks, while you’re probably taking damage from conditions already on you. Whereas in contrast you dodge a power attack and you’ve just diminished your foes dps completely. As a condi user if you dodge my attacks I’m still keeping dps up time while you roll around like a fool.

WhiteRose.6934:

-Anti-Condi duration isn’t a stat you can build for like Toughness is to counter damage.

It is a stat, that is build through runes, traits and skills. I wouldn’t mind, if it would be a armor stat, but then you lose other stats. If this would be implemented as armor stat, it should a) not be mixed with toughness and b) be hard capped so you can’t build for complete condition immunity.

WhiteRose.6934:

-Immunity works against everything.

And?

WhiteRose.6934:

-Condi cleanse is viable (obviously) however in contrast conditions are much easier to apply than they are to cleanse as the fight goes on.

Are you capable to prevent every direct damage with any build? No!
So why should this be possible against condition builds?

You got hit, so you receive damage. For direct damage this is normal, conditions are some kind of evil and there it is getting OP, if you get even hit by the enemy.

WhiteRose.6934:

-Blind/block/evade all work against attacks, while you’re probably taking damage from conditions already on you. Whereas in contrast you dodge a power attack and you’ve just diminished your foes dps completely. As a condi user if you dodge my attacks I’m still keeping dps up time while you roll around like a fool.

The damage dealt to you while blocking/didging is the damage, from attacks you received previous. A direct damage attack would have dealt this damage instant, conditions start to tick beginning from their application.
You do not dodge the conditions already applied to you, you dodge the new ones, that would be applied to you. Just like you would do it vs direct damage.

unleashed.8679:

WhiteRose.6934:

-Anti-Condi duration isn’t a stat you can build for like Toughness is to counter damage.

It is a stat, that is build through runes, traits and skills. I wouldn’t mind, if it would be a armor stat, but then you lose other stats. If this would be implemented as armor stat, it should a) not be mixed with toughness and b) be hard capped so you can’t build for complete condition immunity.

WhiteRose.6934:

-Immunity works against everything.

And?

WhiteRose.6934:

-Condi cleanse is viable (obviously) however in contrast conditions are much easier to apply than they are to cleanse as the fight goes on.

Are you capable to prevent every direct damage with any build? No!
So why should this be possible against condition builds?

You got hit, so you receive damage. For direct damage this is normal, conditions are some kind of evil and there it is getting OP, if you get even hit by the enemy.

WhiteRose.6934:

-Blind/block/evade all work against attacks, while you’re probably taking damage from conditions already on you. Whereas in contrast you dodge a power attack and you’ve just diminished your foes dps completely. As a condi user if you dodge my attacks I’m still keeping dps up time while you roll around like a fool.

The damage dealt to you while blocking/didging is the damage, from attacks you received previous. A direct damage attack would have dealt this damage instant, conditions start to tick beginning from their application.
You do not dodge the conditions already applied to you, you dodge the new ones, that would be applied to you. Just like you would do it vs direct damage.

FYI – All physical attacks can be dodged. Not all condition attacks can be dodged.

which ones cant be dodged?

unleashed.8679:

which ones cant be dodged?

Instant procs like incendiary powder, dhuumfire, chill of death, and the other automatic applications that, if the attack “misses,” do not go on cooldown.

There are very few “big hitting skills” you have dodge vs. a condi build: only spite signet, dark path, chill nades, impale (good luck dodging that), pin down (good luck dodging that). Most condi builds can rely on just landing a few average attacks, being carried by procs, and then defensively kiting while his opponent melts to pressure.

The actual skills of condi builds aren’t a problem, its all the extra procs. The prevalence of these builds is because they are carried by extra procs, which don’t require skill to land. There aren’t “skill shots,” just spamming so your traits passively proc.

While we are at it, massive burst builds are helped to a degree by this, but its not as bad. They only might have a quickness or fire/air sigil proc. I’m o.k. if they take that away too.

All those extra procs are the same as critical hits in a power build.

You land a crit and deal extra damage in a power build it is 50% + crit damage in a condition build it is an extra condition * duration (because direct damage would be useless, because you don’t have any power).

Are you able to tell which skill in a power build will deal a crit and dodge exactly that skill? No. So why should that be possible versus conditions?

unleashed.8679:

All those extra procs are the same as critical hits in a power build.

You land a crit and deal extra damage in a power build it is 50% + crit damage in a condition build it is an extra condition * duration (because direct damage would be useless, because you don’t have any power).

Are you able to tell which skill in a power build will deal a crit and dodge exactly that skill? No. So why should that be possible versus conditions?

No, but the vast majority of big-hitting skills from a Power build are telegraphed and, therefore, easily dodged. You don’t find a lot of that in condi builds.

My main issues with condi builds are the incredible ease of application and the need to really only trait into one stat to make it viable. In small-man situations (sPvP and roaming), the only build I know of that can keep up with condi application is a warrior with a traited warhorn and shouts. I did a post a while ago about how Guardian condi cleanse peaks at around 0.8 condis removed every second. That was with a nonsensical build geared 100% around maximizing condi removal, too. I came up with the stats by averaging out the maximum number of casts over a specific time period, so I was estimating the best-case scenario, too. In reality, your cleanses can’t be used so consistently because you can’t just sit and spam utilities/elites the second they’re off CD.

As for the stats part, power builds derive their damage from three stats: power, precision, and crit damage. Contrast that to condi builds where they really only need to invest into condi damage to be viable. Sure people have argued that you need precision for proc traits and condi duration to be viable, too. However, condi builds, at their core, are still extremely viable without either of those stats.

Condi build mechanics are broken and ANet is only going to worsen the situation by pandering to PvE players and introducing Ferocity/nerfing power builds. It would be nice to see some efforts to address the situation, but I doubt that’ll be the case any time soon.

unleashed.8679:

All those extra procs are the same as critical hits in a power build.

You land a crit and deal extra damage in a power build it is 50% + crit damage in a condition build it is an extra condition * duration (because direct damage would be useless, because you don’t have any power).

Are you able to tell which skill in a power build will deal a crit and dodge exactly that skill? No. So why should that be possible versus conditions?

It is not the same, actually, those procs are a guaranteed hit on some things, so there isn’t really RNG. If they aren’t applied immediately, application will happen half a second later because they don’t go on CD if they “miss”.

Also, this makes condition builds able to “burst” despite playing a DOT build that is build incredibly defensive. You just condi-burst then kite.

Finally, when comparing condi-builds to power builds, we can rely on empirical evidence more than any number crunching as there will always be aspects left out. Empirical evidence (and a large body of it) suggests that low-risk condi-tanks are FAR superior to high-risk burst/power builds in roaming as that see the majority of success.

@Boonprot.6274:

This condition skills have no animations, only rely on one stat, … was all discussed several times. I am tired of telling it over and over again, that this is all wrong.

All the strong skills are telegraphed, for the rest you still have a lot of time to cleanse the conditions, before they apply their whole damage. An advantage no power build will give you.

BlackBeard.2873:

It is not the same, actually, those procs are a guaranteed hit on some things, so there isn’t really RNG. If they aren’t applied immediately, application will happen half a second later because they don’t go on CD if they “miss”.

Also, this makes condition builds able to “burst” despite playing a DOT build that is build incredibly defensive. You just condi-burst then kite.

It is exactly the same mechanic, you crit and deal more damage. If this damage is a extra Dot or a direct damage burst doesn’t matter!

And yes there is RNG involved:
You have to land a crit (crit chance) and the related source (sigil, trait) has to proc as well.

BlackBeard.2873:

Finally, when comparing condi-builds to power builds, we can rely on empirical evidence more than any number crunching as there will always be aspects left out. Empirical evidence (and a large body of it) suggests that low-risk condi-tanks are FAR superior to high-risk burst/power builds in roaming as that see the majority of success.

Yes Number crunching can’t calculate everything, especially not the fact, that people are not willing to learn how to play against a condition spec. I hear it every time, “you can’t do anything against it, not even dodge/block works”. And that is totally wrong. Just because the old conditions are still ticking doesn’t mean there was no effect.

And this misinformation is present in the whole community. So I am not sure how much your empirical evidence is worth. Math doesn’t lie, humans do.

I don’t want to say that everything with conditions is fine in the current state (to be honest GW2 is far a way from being fine). And there are some design flaws involved since launch. But condition damage as mechanic isn’t the problem (only in PvE with the stack limit).

• Toughness for instance shouldn’t be the first defensive stat on any condi armor. Vitality would be enough.
• Stack Limit: This thing has to go. It limits condition builds in so many ways. What would people say if there would be a cap on direct damage of 5k DPS?
• Ranger’s Spirits: They shouldn’t get such a huge proc chance on hit not even on crit without ICD
• Condition immunity skills/traits: looking at diamond skin this is kittening OP. Put in some heal from water and you won’t die to a condi build
• Codi duration should be a stat on gear and not on runes

Probably i forgot one thing or another, but those things don’t make condis OP.