Guild Wars 2

Ashen.2907:

Harper.4173:

You can’t nerf a set to fix what is a mentality issue :

I do not think it is a mentality issue, or at least not only a mentality issue. I think it is an encounter/mob design issue.

So you think players being ostracized for not running the meta will change after the current zerker meta is replaced with something else?

Say a full support cleric guardian becomes a must have in dungeons – do you really think all those speed clear parties – all those people who play for fast loot only – will now accept any other kind of guardian?

Or say condition cap is removed and condis become the new meta – do you think you’ll be running with the speed clear groups without full rampager’s?

No – the meta groups will remain meta groups – and will be just as hostile towards non-meta users – no matter that the meta is not zerker.

It’s not about the gear – it’s about the fastest clear time – and there will always be a meta that gives us that fastest clear time. People who care about it will always enforce it.
People who want to play what they want will always be pushed aside by the meta players because of a different mind set. Let me explain :

Some people like to do dungeons to relax – they take their time and have fun killing every mob and running tanky gear, telling jokes and whatnot.
I like to run dungeons for gold – I relax by spending as little time as possible farming that gold and moving on to the next dungeon.
I become aggravated and annoyed if we don’t get a fast clear time and the experience becomes a negative one if we take too long.

In the current situation both me and other players can coexist. I’ll do my runs and they will do theirs.
The true problem emerges when they start spamming the forums wanting the game to change so that I’m forced to take them with me OR so that I get less rewarded for my effort and skill because of their malice and spite.

Harper.4173:

Ashen.2907:

Harper.4173:

You can’t nerf a set to fix what is a mentality issue :

I do not think it is a mentality issue, or at least not only a mentality issue. I think it is an encounter/mob design issue.

So you think players being ostracized for not running the meta will change after the current zerker meta is replaced with something else?

Say a full support cleric guardian becomes a must have in dungeons – do you really think all those speed clear parties – all those people who play for fast loot only – will now accept any other kind of guardian?

Or say condition cap is removed and condis become the new meta – do you think you’ll be running with the speed clear groups without full rampager’s?

No – the meta groups will remain meta groups – and will be just as hostile towards non-meta users – no matter that the meta is not zerker.

It’s not about the gear – it’s about the fastest clear time – and there will always be a meta that gives us that fastest clear time. People who care about it will always enforce it.
People who want to play what they want will always be pushed aside by the meta players because of a different mind set. Let me explain :

Some people like to do dungeons to relax – they take their time and have fun killing every mob and running tanky gear, telling jokes and whatnot.
I like to run dungeons for gold – I relax by spending as little time as possible farming that gold and moving on to the next dungeon.
I become aggravated and annoyed if we don’t get a fast clear time and the experience becomes a negative one if we take too long.

In the current situation both me and other players can coexist. I’ll do my runs and they will do theirs.
The true problem emerges when they start spamming the forums wanting the game to change so that I’m forced to take them with me OR so that I get less rewarded for my effort and skill because of their malice and spite.

No, what I think is that an excessively narrow meta, fostered by very shallow encounter/mob design, leads to the problems you describe.

Ashen.2907:

Harper.4173:

You can’t nerf a set to fix what is a mentality issue :

I do not think it is a mentality issue, or at least not only a mentality issue. I think it is an encounter/mob design issue.

it is a mentality/ people issue… always has been.

If every one respected other people desire for a specific playstyle this would be a non issue. you want to run DPS meta? hang out with the DPS meta folks. generally speaking they already do. You dont want to run DPS meta? THATS FINE hang out with those that dont.

if everyone respected the others playstyles and stopped whining and kittening and moaning on the forums about (insert complaint here) we might actually be able to spend some time playing the game. and having some fun.

on top of that. it is NOT a mob AI issue. there was once a time where all of the encounters were difficult. Do you remember the first time you Ran Arah? or hell even AC? yeah it sucked. Now go do it 100 times. it becomes easier. All the while the population kittenes whines and moans about gods only know what. So, Arena Net has to spend time resources and money catering to the people that are upset about their latest gem store skins being crappy. or how the latest Living story content is to hard or long. or… gods only know what else.

where instead… maybe working on more dungeons. more content. more anything!.

you want more content to cater to more playstyles??

then stop crying over the fact your 2nd legendary is now “uselesss” and you should get a refund.

there is no arena net dungeon development team. no people to be creative and create those amazing encounters we all dream of.

they are busy fixing bugs and polishing skins and glitches in events that YOU ALL ASKED FOR!

now if you will excuse me I am going to go and play Guild wars 2.

Harper.4173:

You do realize that even if zerker is nerfed players will hop onto assasin’s and the meta will remain unbroken.

You do realize that the latest nerf has hit assassins a lot harder than zerker, right?
Not zerker has been nerfed, critical damage has and since assassins has got less power but more ferocity it got hit really hard.

actually….zerker kill stuff so fast it requires less skill than killing stuff a bit slower…then there is the other end where your surviveability is so great that it doesnt take any skill either….somewhere in the middle is what takes the most skill

Zerker party is only best if dungeons are easy(like all are atm),make hard stuff and people will want support,blast water and other stuff then just dps.

Jana.6831:

critical damage has and since assassins has got less power but more precision it got hit really hard.

FTFY

Star Ace.5207:

Bread.7516:

beGreen.4190:

Also asking me why dont I run support build with zerker is stupid. It doesn’t feel right, it’s clearly not what creator of the game intended and you guys know it

See my sig since apparently your assumption is better than a dungeon dev’s words.
or just this link http://i.imgur.com/g1rkIub.jpg

Sorry if gw2 isn’t your re-skinned [insert favorite typical spank and tank mmorpg here]

It is interesting that, as often as you quote that developer’s quote, he himself said in that SAME post that the other gear/builds have a place in the game. By the same token, if you agree with the dogma (and inappropriate generalization, if you are honest with yourself) that people that don’t use Berserker’s are “unskilled”, many of these developers “suck” at GW2 and are playing it “wrong.”

In short, he did not say that Berserker’s was the “intended” way to play GW2, but rather that it’s a valid way to play it, especially the more you know the content. His own approach to the game, why it may not be Berserker’s, is also as valid.

Not a dig at Berserker’s gear, but you have to place Mr. Hrouda’s words in the proper context. Also I don’t think the OP was saying that non-“zerk” groups should be as fast or as efficient. IMHO, Berserker’s should still remain a valid playstyle, but the other options at least made more attractive, if not essential (right now, direct damage has become “the essential role” so to speak, and the Professions who lack specific key support abilities lag behind and have it hard to make up with that with something else.)

It is in proper context about who is carrying their own weight. Very experienced players + ability to time dodges properly can run zerkers in dungeons, it has been accounted for and is an intended playstyle. Sometimes you don;t have to read between the lines because there isnt anything there.

In pve, non-zerk has a place in the game, just not with people who speed run.
People can wear whatever they want but we can also dictate how we form our own parties.

tl;dr general statement – Everyone is not obligated to play with anyone; make your own party/l2makefriends. There will always be a meta. Realize it’s an action-mmo. LFG is filled with non-zerk required parties. OP clearly just wants a reskinned WoW.

Playing a guard in full zerker traits and gear is much more fun then a tanky guard

it need skill to time blocks

why People want change that ? Is it better to just face tank everything

why u cant accept that some people like play fast with skill and not just stand there without moving and using there reflexes.

Anet didnt nerf berserker gear bcs they dont like zerker they did it because they felt % stats are hard to balance so they changed it to a more easy to balance stat since there will be more gear upgrade in the future.

So to all those PVT people i can just say sry u choose a easy life but just saving ur self not helping ur team. There is no need to punish the people who actually help there team mates

I’m surprised so many people think that enemies having more sustained damage would make zerker gear obsolete. That wouldn’t be the case at all. GC gear would still be viable, because it will still kill enemies before they can generate a large amount of damage. The difference would be that now, zerkers will actually be risky to play, and more defensive gear would have to use active defenses to stay alive as well.

The game is not built to allow for healing or tanking as a dedicated/primary role for players. Your choices are damage-dealing or damage-dealing with very limited support abilities.

So unless they want to rework the game, these limitations will always exist. For better or worse, PVE is about killing kitten as fast as possible while keeping yourself alive using dodges and perhaps a few utility skills.

It just sorta is what it is. At first I really wished tanking and healing were more viable in this game, since I miss playing those roles, but it’s only going to bum you out if you keep thinking like that.

So stop worrying and learn to love the all-out DPS play-style.

Harper.4173:

daros.3407:

Problem is they can’t just totaly nerf zerker so it would be useless or change mechanics of dungeons so full zerker have no chance becouse people spended thousands for full ascended zerker gears. If they would do it, it would be end of GW2 becouse they would just destroy everything we players worked on for last year.
Such changes would have to come with something what they did with magic find gear. They would have to let people to change their stats for free first.

You do realize that even if zerker is nerfed players will hop onto assasin’s and the meta will remain unbroken.

You can’t nerf a set to fix what is a mentality issue :

Even if the game is changed the meta will simply be something else.
Like full zerker and 1 PVT char with CCs. Or full rampager’s – or something. There will always be a best way to power through the content.
This best way will always be enforced by the people that care about time vs profit.
Let’s stop beating a dead horse already – the zerker meta isn’t about a zerker set – it just appears to be that on the surface.
The “zerker meta” embodies the philosophy of not wanting to waste your time and getting those rewards as fast as possible. No matter how the game changes this kind of thinking will remain in the game – we’ll just call it the " something else meta" and it will still be both loved and hated by different groups of players.

You are right. I just gave another reason why simple nerfing zerker would be bad idea. It doesn’t collide with what you said.

I love how people are just twisting each others words to suit their own needs.
Asking for build diversity is not the same asking for a trinity.
Asking for uses for non zerk is not the same as making zerk unviable.
Viability of defense stats it not the same as making full tank builds the meta.

Even within the constraints of “dps + active mitigation” theres potential for a far more playstyles than we currently have.
- Specialist Zerkers: Even within zerker gear, there can be room for specialisation for AOE or Targeted damage.
- Mixed Direct + Condition damage
- Glass cannon condition users
- Power+Cond Duration executioner: Direct damage is based on targets condition stack.
- Pain Inverters: Damage dealt based on damage taken, Vit/Tougness is now worth something.

The beauty of this game is that it allows for fluid roles.
In Gw2 the divide between full damage and full utility is a spectrum, not a game predefined option like in other MMO games.
The issue that people have is not that they cant tank or cant heal, but that anything other than the extreme end of the damage spectrum is rubbish.

Asmodeus.5782:

Monsters should hit weaker and more often, that’s one simple and useful adjustment. You won’t be able to dodge it all – tough/vit/healing suddenly become needed in the team.

welcome to a pseudo trinity.

please accept the fact that gw2 has an active combat system and was advertised as a “skill based game” and understand what it actually means.

build diversity in gw2 pve is defined by your weapons, traits and utility skills. not by gear.

there will be always one optimal build/playstyle for players who are able to use active defense. if you force us to use 1 healer in a party nothing will change. because everyone will run x x x x + 1 healer and people will cry again.

i agree condition damage should be buffed in pve. but only if they add a new stat to the game so you are a class cannon condition damage dealer.

the main problem however, why many players use berserker gear, even the bad players, is because the content is stale and boring and even the worst players will understand the basics after 2 years of playing the same content.

add a new challenging dungeon to the game and everyone except top players will faceplant 24/7

and i want to dodge because its fun. i want to die if i dont dodge or use other active defense because i played badly and should be punished for it. and i want to become a better player.

Asking for build diversity is pointless because by definition there is only one optimal set of playstyle that is superior to everything else.

Also, I find it rather amusing that most people asking for build diversity wants some kind of trinity back.

Asmodeus.5782:

Monsters should hit weaker and more often, that’s one simple and useful adjustment. You won’t be able to dodge it all – tough/vit/healing suddenly become needed in the team.

It’s amusing that you actually ask for less build diversity.

Asmodeus.5782:

Monsters should hit weaker and more often, that’s one simple and useful adjustment. You won’t be able to dodge it all – tough/vit/healing suddenly become needed in the team.

I have to quote this just ‘cause I think there’s some good truth to it.

The harder bosses for me in the game are those who spam one ability, a lot. For instance. SE path… 3? The first champion you meet, the Dredge, who spams stacks of bleed on you. I can’t remove it all, all the time, and that makes the encounter a lot harder for me than the final boss in that dungeon.

Similarly, those Risen mobs in the open world who channel a lifedrain ability. I’ll be at the Temple of Lyssa and wonder why my hit points are slowly draining, non stop. I’ll notice one of those kittens is channeling it’s skill for 20+ seconds. If you can’t interrupt it (which I often can, to be fair) it’s a real nuisance to continually avoid other than running miles away from.

So yes, I think little hits, more often, is a very reasonable way of beginning to make support more useful.

Sarie.1630:

So yes, I think little hits, more often, is a very reasonable way of beginning to make support more useful.

Support more useful? Support is already extremely strong, you just have to know how to build your character.

haviz.1340:

Sarie.1630:

So yes, I think little hits, more often, is a very reasonable way of beginning to make support more useful.

Support more useful? Support is already extremely strong, you just have to know how to build your character.

And there was me thinking all you needed in this game was 5, max width, Norn warriors spamming Skill 2!

Sarie.1630:

And there was me thinking all you needed in this game was 5, max width, Norn warriors spamming Skill 2!

I’d strongly recommend to read basics about support.

Having rapid attacks doesn’t mean that mobs will no longer have big, dangerous attacks that you need to dodge.

Jana.6831:

Harper.4173:

You do realize that even if zerker is nerfed players will hop onto assasin’s and the meta will remain unbroken.

You do realize that the latest nerf has hit assassins a lot harder than zerker, right?
Not zerker has been nerfed, critical damage has and since assassins has got less power but more ferocity it got hit really hard.

That is entirely beside the point. The point is that if zerker is nerfed and is no longer the highest direct damage output set then people will migrate to whatever is now second best and that will be the new golden standard

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Having rapid attacks doesn’t mean that mobs will no longer have big, dangerous attacks that you need to dodge.

Having rapid attacks means your party requires now better sustain which means you are now forced to run certain builds because you won’t survive without them. How’s that going to increase build diversity? I can only see it would actually decrease it.

People asking for build diversity are failing to realize one simple fact.

The game has build diversity – you can use almost any build and any gear choice and still complete the game’s content with ease provided you are a mediocre player.

That aside people have to understand that there are two large categories in which the player base is divided.

The meta runners – People who run whatever meta is best in order to maximize their profits and waste as little time.

For this category you will never have " build diversity " because these people don’t care about build diversity and various builds. They care about getting loot fast and will run whatever gets them that loot the fastest.
Assuming you can force diversity onto this group is silly. They play the game in a completely different way than your average player does and care about other things entirely.

The non-meta runners – This group is the classic " play how you want group " – they run whatever they like, play whatever build they choose and while they do care about rewards the core aspect of the game for them is not constituted by said rewards.

For this category the game already has build diversity because these players just play whatever they think up and like as builds and complete content just fine.

So how is GW2 lacking build diversity?

Harper.4173:

So how is GW2 lacking build diversity?

It doesn’t lack it.

One last thing has to be added :

The multiple metas for multiple encounters idea.

On paper this seems fine : force the meta runners to play a different meta for different encounters ( dungeons) and create more “variety” because now the optimal way to get rewards is different for various forms of encounters.

So what would happen if such a change were to happen? Pretty much this:

The meta runners would adapt – some would rage, some would quit, most would just get the gear/builds and keep on grinding on because their inherent player mentality drives them to keep going and adapt to be most effective at making gold.

The non-meta runners would have a more difficult time because sooner or later if they strive to be part of the meta they’ll find themselves overwhelmed by the amount of new things they have to assimilate, the amount of different builds/gear sets they now have to be able to swap through and lastly by the fact that the already meta-adhering community will be bashing them back to kingdom come with gear checks and “l2p”.

So they’re stuck – if they want in on the meta ( and most players eventually do – once they learn the content and their dodges and whatnot, or once they realize they’ll never get ascended/legendary anytime soon unless they don’t) they’re now in a very bad place.

haviz.1340:

Harper.4173:

So how is GW2 lacking build diversity?

It doesn’t lack it.

I know but I keep seeing this pop-up in every zerker thread there is.

“Omg nerf zerker killed build diversity!!111one”

To OP; What the game actually needs is more punishing cooperative PvE content that forces players to utilize a bit more defense. In most trinity style games, a squishy player does not want to draw the aggro of foes because they’ll get walloped, thus relying on a tank. It wouldn’t be quite the same in GW2 but if you give foes more CC, more damage and more conditions, you would entice players to reconsider being full-on glass. If you give foes an absurd amount of armor, players will realize they need conditions to do damage(thus encouraging build variety, etc.). It’s all in the design of PvE enemies.

There are a couple of issues, though. The players who feel the need to be defense oriented now are going to have a tough time of it against enemies that are less forgiving. There’s also a problem with retrofitting dungeons with new and more dangerous types of foes. Players who like the design as it is will gripe about this. So the solution would be to add it into new content. It may be the case that the oldest content is the weakest and easiest to conquer when it’s all said and done, which would require scaling rewards back for older stuff. It’s never cut and dry.

mooty.4560:

To OP; What the game actually needs is more punishing cooperative PvE content that forces players to utilize a bit more defense. In most trinity style games, a squishy player does not want to draw the aggro of foes because they’ll get walloped, thus relying on a tank. It wouldn’t be quite the same in GW2 but if you give foes more CC, more damage and more conditions, you would entice players to reconsider being full-on glass. If you give foes an absurd amount of armor, players will realize they need conditions to do damage(thus encouraging build variety, etc.). It’s all in the design of PvE enemies.

There are a couple of issues, though. The players who feel the need to be defense oriented now are going to have a tough time of it against enemies that are less forgiving. There’s also a problem with retrofitting dungeons with new and more dangerous types of foes. Players who like the design as it is will gripe about this. So the solution would be to add it into new content. It may be the case that the oldest content is the weakest and easiest to conquer when it’s all said and done, which would require scaling rewards back for older stuff. It’s never cut and dry.

Again, if you make such that you need condition damage dealers you will reduce build diversity because now you have to get them. You don’t have a choice.

haviz.1340:

Sarie.1630:

So yes, I think little hits, more often, is a very reasonable way of beginning to make support more useful.

Support more useful? Support is already extremely strong, you just have to know how to build your character.

Use full Cleric gear on an Ele and facetank anything in the game. You don’t even have to be present for any of the fights, set on auto and go have a drink or grab something to eat. When you get back the encounter is over and you collect your loots. How much more useful do you want support to be?

All these type of threads are always the same old moaning.
I do not see why they are trying to force their preferred style of gameplay on everyone else…
Want to play with diversity? Have at it find someone who wants to play tank, healer, cc , etc. Knock yourselves out!
Just stay the hell out of my meta only groups.
For me dungeons are all about efficiency. I have been in all the dungeons and on all the paths, so at this point if I can shave 20 seconds off a run that’s exciting.
I still pug and for the most part it isn’t too bad in certain dungeons.
But you still run into people who have the mindset of the OP. When I encounter these types of people, I apologize to everyone in the group and just leave since pugs are always forming. I do not force the way I play on others… is it wrong to expect the same in return?
~meta player and proud of it~

The multiple metas for multiple encounters idea.

On paper this seems fine : force the meta runners to play a different meta for different encounters ( dungeons) and create more “variety” because now the optimal way to get rewards is different for various forms of encounters.

I think this is very relevant.
One thing the whole “there will always be a meta/optimal build” argument ignores is that although it is true that a “meta” would always exist, the said “meta” for different situations/encounters need not be the same.

Tman.6349:

Ok. Let’s straighten this out with a simple question and then I’ll elaborate…

How in the world do you balance a game within the ‘Healer/Tank/Dps’ architype when you’re a game company that proports to do away with that!?

The Answer: It’s impossible and impractical…

For these 3 types of play to be ‘equal’ would not be ‘doing away with the trinity’ at all.

You’ve gotta see that this was the case from the beginning. ‘Zerker’ isn’t some crazy new fad that has taken over GW2. As I day one Thief, that mained an Assassin in GW1 for over 7 years, I can attest to this.

Dodge gives us 100% damage reduction AND we have a self heal. Those two things are INCREDIBLY potent in tandem, and, after learning the content, who would not forsee DPS becoming the most important statistics. As soon as they put a cap on conditions but not DPS, they put a harsh line between those two. The others were already striked out before they even stepped up to the plate tbh.

_"Hey ‘Healing Ele’, I appreciate your enthusiasm for my well-being, but I can already dodge this guy’s attacks and heal myself. so why don’t you help me kill this kitten already since this guy is scaled with both of us here!?!"…..

THIS is the DPS mindset. I’m sorry it makes you feel irrelevant but that is how the MECHANICS of the game work, so I am sorry for dissing your Cleric gear when you are the highest DPS profession in the game.

If you are not familiar with the encounters or have slow internet or some other hinderance then most people will understand, but don’t expect, BASED on these things, that a group who ‘has it all’ want to slow themselves down when loot is completely random and the ONLY tangible rewards are achieved through destroying content as fast as possible.

It doesn’t matter what your MF is or what area of the game you’re in, when loot tables are completely random, getting the highest/quickest amount of drops will be the most sound approach for Gold Per Hour. Speed running dungeoneers made this association VERY long ago and the game didn’t change since then. Our tactics haven’t changed since then either. If anything, we’ve honed and improved those tactics multiple times over. With that said, I will guarentee that there is no ‘Meta’ in the sense of there is ONLY one way to play, BUT DPS is the ONLY way to play. ‘Zerker’ isn’t a build but a build archetype that relies soley on DPS and ACTIVE DEFENSE to get the job done. You can run a Shout/DPS Guardian, a Consecration/DPS Guardian, etc, BUT if DPS isn’t somewhere in your build, then you are working with an inferior product.

It’s like you go to a steakhouse and think, "Do I want the Fillet Mignon, the Porterhouse, the Primerib with a topshelf wine, or, MAYBE, will I JUST have the ‘free rolls and a side salad with water’….it’s a simple choice if you would like to TREAT YOURSELF to the best you can have. OR are you somebody who wants to OVERPAY for little satisfaction with NO ‘nutritional value’.

20-30g speedclear PLUS loot drops/session group or are you ok investing four+ times the effort to recieve the same end.

In a game that is based around having the ‘sweetest of the sweet’ cosmetic appearence (at a high cost), this has become a VERY simple choice among MANY people who would like the ‘fillet mignon’ and be ‘served first’. This is COMPLETELY disreguarding the fact that, once you build ‘liquidity’, it only puts you in a place to grow that ‘egg’ once you get accostumed to other aspects of the game and how to ‘chase those dollars’.

TLDR: Anything other than a DPS setup is ‘training wheels’ for ‘casuals’ and anyone who takes themselves seriously will quickly disreguard this style of play, as it is COMPLETELY unnecessary.

This needs to be repeated again. There is nothing that stops fully cleric/staff Guardians from making their own groups, but don’t expect to be welcome in every other group you choose to join.

What nerf?Has there been any nerf?
Now joke asideI don’t think Anet knows what is a nerf.Right now i feel more OP than ever in dungeons.

The sad thing is that I went into a party from lfg and I was told to ping my gear- I did and because I’m a pow/cond mesmer, they booted me. Check later in the day and I see a flood of “zerker only- ping gear” and “selling p3 zerker only” and the beautifully classy “zerker or gtfo” …. -.-;;

ApplePearOrange.9281:

I think this is very relevant.
One thing the whole “there will always be a meta/optimal build” argument ignores is that although it is true that a “meta” would always exist, the said “meta” for different situations/encounters need not be the same.

Let’s get more ascended sets for each encounter. Pure fun.

Darcness.2408:

The sad thing is that I went into a party from lfg and I was told to ping my gear- I did and because I’m a pow/cond mesmer, they booted me. Check later in the day and I see a flood of “zerker only- ping gear” and “selling p3 zerker only” and the beautifully classy “zerker or gtfo” …. -.-;;

I hope it won’t be a surprise, but you can make your own group advertisement with your own rules.

haviz.1340:

ApplePearOrange.9281:

I think this is very relevant.
One thing the whole “there will always be a meta/optimal build” argument ignores is that although it is true that a “meta” would always exist, the said “meta” for different situations/encounters need not be the same.

Let’s get more ascended sets for each encounter. Pure fun.

I’m excited to see how it would turn out. Now people don’t even want to get one “meta gearset”.

engaging “no trinity mode”: verb indicating movement towards a destination, verb describing a popular pastime activity, noun name of a very popular mmorpg, developer synonym of ice storm.

The problem can’t be solved by nerfing berserker gear.

The problem is inherent of the system.

Offensive stats should have been only in weapons, defensive stats only in armor, that way offensive and defensive stats would never compete with each others, and players would not have to choose between damage and defense, but between which kinds of damage and defense they want.

Now it’s too late. How could you make such a huge change?

hendo.1940:

Problem : increasing the rate of attacks and lowering their damage results in active defense such as block blind and dodge being significantly less useful, resulting in a far less engaging and active game.

Increasing the rate of attacks results in dredge which nobody likes.

People need to be careful what they wish for.

The problem with dredge is not that they hit fast, but that they hit hard and fast.
They have lots of rifles, which are really hard to avoid without evading (you can’t strafe to avoid their attacks like with slower projectiles), yet still deal pretty good damage.

As a rule of thumb, the harder to avoid an attack is, the less damage it should do, but direct hit attacks hard to avoid do quite some damage in GW2, which makes bosses like Robbari with his fast pistol attacks and Horace with his surekill flamestrike way, way, harder than any others, and enemies with lots of rifles and pistols like dredge a pain.

Not this rubbish again…

Stooperdale.3560:

There is only a lack of diversity in speed running. Capable players can defeat the dungeons with any reasonable build, full diversity. Inexperienced players are no better with dps builds than survival builds if they don’t know tactics.

Agree completely. For example, this weekend myself and two guildmates decided to run some alts through AC paths. Level 31, level 40, and level 45. We PUG’d two level 80s to finish up the group, neither were zerker. We did all 3 paths, took roughly 15-20min depending on path. No wipes.

So, yea, this “required” meta everyone is talking about is strictly for speedrunning. If I cared about running the AC paths in 10min versus 15-20min, then maybe I’d be all into the zerker thing, but seriously, these dungeons do not require zerker in any way shape or form.

Let the speedrunners do what they please, they can do paths twice as fast (sometimes). That’s it. Cool. In the end we all get the same rewards. I’ve never tried putting together a zerker only group before, but I would imagine there would be some wait time versus literally instant joins for our group (which was odd I figured the two PUG 80s would leave immediately when they saw we were lowbies— experienced lowbies, but lowbies nonetheless). So the completion times may not be that different when its all said and done.

Another example: my non-zerker guild dungeon team comprised of whatever class in whatever gear you feel like, can do CoF p1 in ~10-12min. What’s a good speedrunner time on CoF p1? 6-7min? Meh. I’ll stick with my non-zerker build.

AC is a horrible example, since post patch you can duo easily. Hell, you can solo it in 10 minutes …

Also CoF is the other nobrainer dungeon. :/

haviz.1340:

Again, if you make such that you need condition damage dealers you will reduce build diversity because now you have to get them. You don’t have a choice.

You wouldn’t have to make every enemy into a high armor design, just a handful. Maybe you could place them in such a way that a condition spec would be useful for each run. Arenanet would problem shun that though, they seem to want to encourage the idea that you could throw any old group together and get things done.

As much as I love dpsing my way through a dungeon, I agree with poster. The problem with this game, overall, is that players get bored rather quickly. This is due to the lack of challenge in the game.
You faceroll your way through everything. It gets to the point where you have done everything so many times simply because you can; leading to boredom. This is not in Anet’s best interest at the end of the day. I would like to see more of a risk to wearing and grouping full zerker/assassin/dps.
However, instead of looking to gear stats for the correction, anet should instead look at boss/mob mechanics for the fix. They have been trying to skirt this for far too long but it is the inevitable fix.

Izdubar.9540:

If you need to feel needed so badly, virtually every other MMO on the market uses the tired and archaic trinity system.

I DONT LIKE IT SO ITS TIRED AND ARCHAIC. You realize that RPG’s (guild wars 2 included!!!) have been using many of the same mechanics since the 70’s, right?

Try to do dungeons in full greens to imitate the WoW feeling, when you aren’t overgeared for a dungeon. AC for example with full of lvl80 characters in full exotics with optimized builds of course will breeze trough it after the 21125623627th run, when the players will now every rock in that instance ….
People learned the content, adapted to it and geared for it.

@mooty.
High armor bosses exists, but gimmicky mechanics makes it meaningless. Legendary mining suit and ice ele says hi.

The content will be balanced around the following. Avoid most attacks without vigor and survive encounter in full defense gear. Sadly, the middle ground will suffer, because they aren’t tanky enough nor have enough damage to burst enemies down.

@for the masses
And build diversity is in the game. If you can’t see it …
Even Anet learn how to make it better. I hope i don’t need to remind you to world bosses. These structure like enemies make every gearset with precision, ferocity obsolete and condi specced characters can do literally nothing.
With the reworked Teq it got a liiiiiiittle bit better. These players can be useful around the encounter when you need to defend turrets.
Same with the new Wurm. Except the burst phase, there is no point to use the above builds on the boss, its only good for handle the adds.

Let’s get more ascended sets for each encounter. Pure fun.

Builds are not limited to just gear, we already have groundwork in the form of changing traits/utilities of the fly.
While you are right that in the current state of gear progression (ie. that ascended exists) having multiple sets is completely unfeasible. The problem lies not in changeable specs being a bad idea, but ascended gear’s “exclusivity” shoehorning the player into one gear choice in the long run.
Giving ascended the ability to change stats wouldn’t be too shabby.

One hit kills in dungeons are a major problem imo. Why bother healing in a fight with Kohler when if you don’t dodge he’ll one shot you? Healing won’t fix that.

Weregild.3596:

Izdubar.9540:

If you need to feel needed so badly, virtually every other MMO on the market uses the tired and archaic trinity system.

I DONT LIKE IT SO ITS TIRED AND ARCHAIC. You realize that RPG’s (guild wars 2 included!!!) have been using many of the same mechanics since the 70’s, right?

This is false. Only Massively Multiplayer Online RPGs use the crappy Trinity model, fortunately any other kind of RPG, including the REAL RPGs (pen and paper) don’t use any kind of distinct role model, that’s an MMORPG thing.

There is also a fairly recent version of a famous pen and paper RPG that tried to “mimick” the MMORPG trinity system and of course lots of true pnp fans disliked it a lot (hint: their latest version reverted the ridiculous split into roles and went back to its roots)

There are a few MORE recent Single Player RPGs that also require Tank/DPS/Healer trinity nonsense but all the true RPGs of old do NOT.

beGreen.4190:

Lack of Diversity is bad for every game, especially massively multiplayer one.
Before i get to QQ let me introduce myself

I’ve always played as healer or support in every kind of RPG game so when i started playing GW my first class of choice was guardian – just because it was labeled as a support and team player. Not expecting it to be WoW-like healbot i finally settled in hammer/staff AH build with knight gear. I was really happy with it because it was giving me exactly what i wanted, reactive support game play with decent survivability and damage, it was also pretty competitive in dungeons and fotm (at the times when 20 level was the highest beatable one).

And then zerker meta came…

Most of zerker players are actually right, you don’t anything than uber dps to stomp hardest of dungeons and only justification for not running full zerker build is lack of skill and sloppy dodging, what is more i even agree with the statement that crit damage nerf makes the game even worse since zerker groups can’t carry 1-non zerker.

What the game needs to increase diversity and make people that just hate all-in damage game play happy again is either nerfing berserker into oblivion or changing whole dungeon system on a deep level.

First option is probably a bad idea because as i genuinely love supporting and healing there are surely people who genuinely love low survivability and high spikes of crits and the should have their fun too.

What second option needs is in my opinion:

-Adjusting condition cap in dungeons so condition based builds aren’t kitten by it. Condition build become viable = more diversity = profit.

-Adding “threat” system and making the AI slightly better so high damage dealing players are getting focused by bosses and thus are having harder time (I’ve read about threat system in gw2 before but i’ve never seen it work tbh)

-Changing at least one encounter in every path in every dungeon to have type of damage that can’t be mitigated by dodging to make healing and boons more relevant (i am talking snowstorm in svanir fractal, homing missiles, melee attacks that can’t be dodged etc. )

-Changing some of the bosses large abilities trigger from “cast every 5 minutes” to cast every “33% of health lost”. Assuming that it takes 5 minutes for a zerk group and 15 minutes for a normal group to take down one single boss it doesn’t change anything to a normal group but makes zerk group’s life harder because instead of one big hit they have to withstand 3 of them.

-Adjusting traits, abilites and stats to a level where being full time supporter is not being laughed at, increasing impact of healing power and adding utility and healing skills that can be used to effectively support others (like guardian’s healing breeze but actually useful)

-Adjusting traits, abilities and stats so being more sturdy doesn’t mean one can’t dodge… for example traits that increase threat making boss more likely to attack “the tank” or control abilities that involve getting hit to prevent damage on teammates.

I am aware of fact that changes I’am proposing would turn the class system more to mmo’s holy trinity (tank-dps-healer) but i really wouldn’t like to see gw transformed into WoW. What i’d like to see is more diversity, interesting meta and one’s ability to play whatever style he or she wishes to.

holy trinity is actually more interesting and deep than holy entity (full berseker warrior)

I’d love to hear your input
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I like what you’re saying but you can have diversity without doing anything that you are talking about it’s a meta because the people want it as soon as possible. You and many others may prefer to run something more to your liking and you are absolutely entitled to it. Find those people and play with them let the people that want to speed everything speed it plain and simple the diversity is there just not everyone wants to do it. I myself am guilty of wanting to get things fast so I’m fine with sticking to the zerk meta I change off it once I get what I want(Legendary’ies’) but the scenic route is always there.