Guild Wars 2

I know arenanet’s developers say condition damage is a problem and bound to stacks.
Why?
Those stacks need to be personalized so people get their nice damage figures on screen…
Unfortunately:
This asks for quite some load on the servers. I want to offer a suggestion.

My suggestion: If we instead pool the condition damage (character stat) numbers.
(So not the actual dmg figures like 120 bleed, but the condition dmg: 2000 pts from player 1 worth of bleed , 3bleeds*550 condition dmg of bleeds from player 2 and 8 times 350 bleed from player 3 would combin e to a condition dmg total of 6450 condidmg worth of bleed for a tick , the durations should still be monitored but this can be done is a simple table.

Instead of keeping track all the personal stacks we make a pool,
it will mean we no longer see the -personal- amount of bleeding or poison BUT we will all be able to do condition dmg without cancellation and overwrites

I will assume the following can be changed
-make the base value of condition damage 1 instead of 0 OR based on level instead.
-make all the condition damage flow into a “pool for condition dmg” to calculate dmg
-instead of proccing all might for the duration of the might we only proc it once at condition duration start so when up we do calulate it, if not we ignore it for the reaminder of that cast/hit’s duration.
-a maximum condition duration is taken ( 60 or even 90 sec ) for a respective length of a table (table dimensions: (duration+1 a )X(condition +1)
(those conditions which don’t dmg should be taken into consideration (length of cripples, stuns,dazes,invisibilities, stealths, chills)
and in this (per enemy table) all condition dmg should be stacked for damaging conditions

Say 100 lvl 80 condition chars stacking 25 bleeds with values of 2000 condition dmg could lead to 25 bleeds*100 chars for 2000 condition dmg , for actual 5000000 stacked condition dmg when all have reached max efficiency when no cleaning happens.
This would amount to ~250000 dmg or 2500 dmg per necro per tick which is quite accurate

present formula:
bleeding dmg = (0.05 * Condition Damage) + (0.5 * Level) + 2.5 per stack per second

The bold area in this formula should get some rework to make sure people with very low condition dmg are kept in the calculation since we no longer keep track of individual bleeds but condition dmg we cannot have people anymore with 0 condition dmg, their bleeds which used to do 42 dmg per tick will vanish (which could be unfortunate if you have traits benefitting from your empty bleed (read=> power warriors using +10% dmg on bleed?) so a bleed should be triggered so a minimum value of 1 condition should be used giving a warrior his bleed but no actual dmg from it. If the warrior worries lot about his DPS losing the 3 -5 bleeds (120-200 dps) then we could consider making a base value of 100 condition dmg for all players, or setting it to 916 at lvl 80 but reworked in the condition dmg formula… (this specific points will ask for some thinking)

The dmg formula this could be altered leaving the bleeding calculation
bleeding dmg = (0.05 * condition damage stacked) per proc

Ofcourse condi cleaning would still wipe the slate for one or more specific condition(s)
Epidemic would transfer the table to other spawns, 5 in range…. no utility lost there.
Changing condi to boons would be the same and so on…
The only change should be the noticability of condi clearing.

this could solve the stacking problems of bleeding, but also all other conditions. The loss to players would be not to see the actual values of dmg you yourself are doing but the gains would be you would be doing condition dmg not hampered by the oother condition applying characters in your area.

So far my suggestion….
I hope it’s implementable.

Conditions are a nice addition to the game, but atm truly bugged… due to thier game implementation.

My apologies for the typo’s I hope it’s comprehensible

Recap:

- rework conditions so there is a table which pools condition dmg values of the appropriate casters registering duration in the row per tick

Examples
say caster 1 does 1 bleed every 2 seconds cond dmg 2 duration 3
say caster 2 does 3 bleeds every second condi dmg 1 duration 2
say warrior 3 does 1 bleed every 3 seconds condi dmg 4 duratin 5

table total 1sec
C||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|
——————————— condi value shows how dmg is applied by each player
1||2|2|2|0|0|0|0| <—this is the info we keep for dmg figures player1 atm =overhead
2||3|3|0|0|0|0|0| <—this is the info we keep for dmg figures player2 atm=overhead
3||4|4|4|4|4|0|0| <—this is the info we keep for dmg figures player3 atm =overhead
——————————- condi value shows total for all players.
T||9|9|6|4|4|0|0| <— this is the info we should keep (total condition dmg on critter)

first tick bleeding procs for 9 condition dmg.

atm total is not calculated, as all values seem to be subtracted individually
this could be calculated directly after a succesful hit is made, and would leave all the overhead to the side. making 1 big pool of condition dmg values per condition leaving more room for other people to do conditions as well ….

first tick bleeding procs for 9 condition dmg => calculate dmg loss

table 2nd sec
C||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|
————————
1||2|2|0|0|0|0|0| <—this is the info we keep for dmg figures player1 =overhead
2||6|3|0|0|0|0|0| <—this is the info we keep for dmg figures player2 =overhead
3||4|4|4|4|0|0|0| <—this is the info we keep for dmg figures player3 =overhead
——————————-
T||12|9|4|4|0|0|0| <— this is the info we should keep (total condition dmg on critter)

second tick of bleeding procs for 12 condition dmg => calculate dmg

tabel 3rd sec
C||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|
————————
1||4|2|2|0|0|0|0| <—this is the info we keep for dmg figures player1 =overhead
2||6|3|0|0|0|0|0| <—this is the info we keep for dmg figures player2 =overhead
3||4|4|4|0|0|0|0| <—this is the info we keep for dmg figures player3 =overhead
——————————-
T||14|9|6|0|0|0|0| <— this is the info we should keep (total dmg for critter)

3rd tick of bleeding procs for 14 condition dmg => calculate dmg

table 4sec
C||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|
————————
1||2|2|0|0|0|0|0| <—this is the info we keep for dmg figures player1 =overhead
2||6|3|0|0|0|0|0| <—this is the info we keep for dmg figures player2 =overhead
3||8|8|4|4|4|0|0| <—this is the info we keep for dmg figures player3 =overhead
——————————-
T||16|13|4|4|4|0|0| <— this is the info we should keep (total condition dmg on critter)

4th sec this tick procs for 16 condition dmg…=> calculate dmg

in the end all critters should have a DOT table looking somehwat like this they should only hold the T line (total) from the previous table leaving only 1 row for each condition for 100 or more players. only modded at cast for any might at cast. so no changing values.

Instead of all character based conditions tables… We now only use 1 critter table

Condition|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11|12|13|14|15|16|17|18|19|20|21|22|23|24|25|(till max)
————————————————————————————————————————————
Bleed | for actual condition pool values/tick & no cap
confusion | for actual condition pool values/tick & no cap
torment | for actual condition pool values/tick & no cap
terror | for actual condition pool values/tick & no cap
poison | for actual condition pool values/tick & no cap
burning | for actual condition pool values/tick & no cap
weakness | for registering durations
fear | for registering durations
daze | for registering durations
stun | for registering durations
cripple | for registering durations
chill | for registering durations

In the end it would mean s lot of checking for might is no longer an issue, which would save on communication, the dmg is calculated per tick as a total which would save bandwith and even though we looses our nice numbers we could actually do dmg.

I prefer not seeing my individual dmg and in the end with 100 necro’s do the 250000 dmg, then seeing the numbers and with 100 necro’s do 2500 dmg.

I hope this clarifies things…

I like the idea and I can see how it could help the condition cap problem.

The “0 condition damage problem” can be easily be solved easily by making a hidden condition specific base damage (at lvl 80: bleeding 850, burning 1312, confusion 867, poison 840, torment 850) which is added to the the condition damage before the data is send to server.

Also the table needs to be at least be 120 ticks long ((http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tooth_Stab) Tooth stab combined with 100% bleed duration).

But I do have one question though:
How is event participation going to work? After all the damage is lost in the pool so how do we know if the player participated enough for bronze/silver/gold?

Most skills have a hit/miss trigger atm most ppl with a dps build need only 1 hit to gain credit. We should make a check for the amount of succesful attacks on target. and derive participation this way. maybe 1 succesful hit fopr copper and make the amount scale for better rewards as enemies are higgher tiers (vet, elite, champ or legendary) But in my opinion this wouldn’t be part of the condition management but combat mechanics in general.

If you want to make the conditions be balanced whit direct damage, or between pvp/wvsw/pve/mass-event/dungeon you can’t do that working on the stacks. Stacks work good to limit the condi damage on a single player/mob, but at the same time make the player unable to deal damage if the number of stack is already full.
That’s the biggest problem of condition damage dealer in pve. That’ why no one want more than one condi player in it’s team. If you have a ranger and a necro in team they will reduce the damage of the other condi and no one can do all it’s damage because of stacks.
That’s why Bleed is the best condition and the only one that stack (exeption for Torment, but there’s no problem on torment because there’s only few skills that inflict torment).

My opinion is:
Make every single class to inflict only 1/2 conditions. If a war can inflict only bleed, a ranger only poison and burn, the necro only torment and poison, the mesmer only confusion, etc (it’s a example) you can balance the effect of that conditions and it’s power. But to do that ANet need a total rework on condition damage and skills.
Until you have all conditions on all classes (more or less), you can’t balance it between pvp and pve.

In pve the problem is the stacks, in pvp there’s no problem of stacks because in wvsw there’s a lot of condition remover skills, making your conditions lesser effective and in spvp there’s fights of 2vs2-3vs3 and rarely there’s 25 stack of bleeding on a single target. But in pve frequently whit my condi ranger I swap on berserker build because I’m useless, whit all that bleeding stacks on the enemy.

ANet need to do a total rework. And ANet will never do that.

u forgot to add ‘only for pve’

this would be pretty strong and insane in wvw i guess

edit: and pvp

i mean, u can stack more than 25 bleed ..

In wvw if you get tagged by 25 bleeds and you cannot clean your die. Same in pve…

A class with high condition dmg ( & might) in wvw does about 2000-2400 base, 2800-3200 with might condition dmg worth of points for160- 200 dmg per bleed/tick, so for 25 you’d be looking at 4000- 5000 dmg / tick… And I’m not kidding here, without reduction by armor… only for bleeding, but you’ll probably be poisoned so you heal less, and a nice confusion spike is never far away (condi hammer warrior with perplexity? Anyone?) If you clean you will kill yourself , if you do not you’ll kill yourself…

So you die. With these normal numbers squishy classes have 2 seconds to react else they’re down. Then again if you stand in 1 spot for 2-3 seconds in a zerg battle you’ll be downed or dead anyways, if you made a “positional mistake” just by DPS

But in wvw a lot, if not most people run a lot of aoe condition removal.. On my shout healer warrior I have 3 shouts which clean 4 conditions, and I ’ve got a warhorn, to convert 2 further conditions, and lastly cleansing ire which will remove up to 3 conditions. It wil however afect people who do not bring condi cleanse and expect their condition duration mitigation to handle everything…,

But just 30 or even 50+ stacks of bleeds are not a problem. The consequence is still the same for players, only the time to react will be shortened, It might be the end of zerging as we know it… imagine a condi spike on a castle lord and then 5 or 10 enemy necro’s portalbombing and casting epidemic…

personally I wouldn’t mind seeing terror, burning and poison stack as well. It would open up this game. Creating something extreme… I wouldn’t mind leaving the max stacks at 25 for pvp , but to be honest: IMHO it’s unfair.

If you get put together with 4 condi characters you cannot join to kill someone, if you get all dps-ers you can.

Condi dmg formula’s : (for reference, based on lvl 80 characters)

Bleeding: (general stacking DOT)
0.05*Condition dmg + 42.5 per stack per second

Torment: (movement denial DOT)
0.0375*Condition dmg + 32 per stack per second (when standing still)
0.0750*Condition dmg + 64 per stack per second (when moving)

Confusion (skill denial DOT)
0.15 * Condition dmg + 130 per stack (per skill use)

Burning (general DOT non stacking, adds duration)
0.25*Condition dmg + 328 per second

Poison (halves healing, general DOT non stacking, adds duration)
0.10*Condition dmg + 84 per second

Terror (CC & DMG, unvolountary movement while stunned)
0.25*Condition dmg + 302 per second

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

In wvw if you get tagged by 25 bleeds and you cannot clean your die. Same in pve…

A class with high condition dmg ( & might) in wvw does about 2000-2400 base, 2800-3200 with might condition dmg worth of points for160- 200 dmg per bleed/tick, so for 25 you’d be looking at 4000- 5000 dmg / tick… And I’m not kidding here, without reduction by armor… only for bleeding, but you’ll probably be poisoned so you heal less, and a nice confusion spike is never far away (condi hammer warrior with perplexity? Anyone?) If you clean you will kill yourself , if you do not you’ll kill yourself…

So you die. With these normal numbers squishy classes have 2 seconds to react else they’re down. Then again if you stand in 1 spot for 2-3 seconds in a zerg battle you’ll be downed or dead anyways, if you made a “positional mistake” just by DPS

But in wvw a lot, if not most people run a lot of aoe condition removal.. On my shout healer warrior I have 3 shouts which clean 4 conditions, and I ’ve got a warhorn, to convert 2 further conditions, and lastly cleansing ire which will remove up to 3 conditions. It wil however afect people who do not bring condi cleanse and expect their condition duration mitigation to handle everything…,

But just 30 or even 50+ stacks of bleeds are not a problem. The consequence is still the same for players, only the time to react will be shortened, It might be the end of zerging as we know it… imagine a condi spike on a castle lord and then 5 or 10 enemy necro’s portalbombing and casting epidemic…

personally I wouldn’t mind seeing terror, burning and poison stack as well. It would open up this game. Creating something extreme… I wouldn’t mind leaving the max stacks at 25 for pvp , but to be honest: IMHO it’s unfair.

If you get put together with 4 condi characters you cannot join to kill someone, if you get all dps-ers you can.

Condi dmg formula’s : (for reference, based on lvl 80 characters)

Bleeding: (general stacking DOT)
0.05*Condition dmg + 42.5 per stack per second

Torment: (movement denial DOT)
0.0375*Condition dmg + 32 per stack per second (when standing still)
0.0750*Condition dmg + 64 per stack per second (when moving)

Confusion (skill denial DOT)
0.15 * Condition dmg + 130 per stack (per skill use)

Burning (general DOT non stacking, adds duration)
0.25*Condition dmg + 328 per second

Poison (halves healing, general DOT non stacking, adds duration)
0.10*Condition dmg + 84 per second

Terror (CC & DMG, unvolountary movement while stunned)
0.25*Condition dmg + 302 per second

but u could cleansee it before entirely dead, but that would lead to : condis op’

and necros bleed could get overwritten by non condi warrior, but if they fuse it, both would domore dmg etc, the thing u posted is awesome and a great idea dont get me wrong, but it should be restricted for pve only

Same, I think it’d be good for pve but breaking the 25 stack cap would just be to punishing. 25 bleeds is not hard to achieve between 2 people and that already hurts a lot. Unless they buffed general condi clearing it would be broken. You wouldn’t even be able to cleanse them because it would just be reapplied over and over.

Toughness does nothing against condition damage either, so the only “counter” to conditions is timed condition removal and vitality. Even that only goes so far these days..

I don’t get how removing the cap would make it unfair. I mean if two thiefs use backstab on you, you get double damage and that’s it. No damage reduction, no nothing. What would make it different if two condition players starts focussing you? Why do they deserve damage reduction while power builds don’t?

Because toughness/armor reduces power damage? Take a cleanse, or even better take -X% condition duration.

because after a cleanse it wouls be reapplied immediately? So after whatever damage migitation for power you will be attacked again by power builds and receive damage. Still no difference.

I tned to agree with tim on this matter,

Conditions can be cleansed, they can be reduced.

There are quite a few foods and some rune options that provide condition reduction
in pve that can amount to -65% condition duration
(rune of melandru? rune of antitoxin? rune of the trooper?)

Changing your build so it’s more condition resistant will mean sacrifices on other grounds. It will rewrite the meta. And thats good. It will keep the game fresh for a bit longer.
It will also create further options for support in pvp. To counter 5 man necro epidemic blobs use 1 or 2 guardians or warriors for shout heal area cleansing? It will nullify or at least severely hamper their dmg output

And lastly if I go roaming in WvW and am shanked by 3 DPS backstabber thieves while running my PU condition mesmer, why can’t my necro and condi thief allies support me? They are negated… The thieves are not. they do 15-35k dmg together (depending on my armor) in 1 second, try to mimic that with condition builds, You’ll have warning from condi players in advance because you will see the stacks rising, unlike the backstabbers; they just shank you if you missed them, gg…

I like the idea. I’d still let Bleeding and Confusion etc stack in intensity, but it’d merely add multipliers on the existent bleeding icon you can see. The number would indicate roughly how dangerous the stack is, not sure how to compute this right now.

I like the idea a lot though.

but direct dmg can be mitigated by toughness and protection, condiions not, and u only require 1 stat to boost ur condi dmg, think about it, that would be totally unbalanced

Wyrden.4713:

but direct dmg can be mitigated by toughness and protection, condiions not, and u only require 1 stat to boost ur condi dmg, think about it, that would be totally unbalanced

Point-for-point, direct damage outscales conditions. That is to say, a power-centric player gaining 10 Power gains more damage than a condition-centric player gaining 10 Malice.

And in any case, how is that relevant? Conditions currently go way unused, a result of how weak they are compared to direct damage, how easy it is to cleanse them off and how early they cap. The OP proposes a fix to the last point.

Has nothing to do with the raw damage output. Maybe it needs to be rebalanced. Or maybe toughness is strong enough a stat without needing to add condition-mitigation to it. As far as that goes, buff the effect of Healing Power. As you don’t instantly die when condition’ed up, making healing power have a serious effect on healing would “mitigate” them. While not doing quite that against direct damage because you lack the opportunity.

It baffles me that with all the balance discussions we have seen from the devs, not once have we seen them admit that conditions are a problem. It’s a pretty serious issue with the balance of the classes, since some classes revolve around conditions. Seems like a pretty big thing to ignore if you ask me.

Some mention of the condition problem would be appreciated in a future podcast.

Carighan.6758:

Wyrden.4713:

but direct dmg can be mitigated by toughness and protection, condiions not, and u only require 1 stat to boost ur condi dmg, think about it, that would be totally unbalanced

Point-for-point, direct damage outscales conditions. That is to say, a power-centric player gaining 10 Power gains more damage than a condition-centric player gaining 10 Malice.

And in any case, how is that relevant? Conditions currently go way unused, a result of how weak they are compared to direct damage, how easy it is to cleanse them off and how early they cap. The OP proposes a fix to the last point.

Has nothing to do with the raw damage output. Maybe it needs to be rebalanced. Or maybe toughness is strong enough a stat without needing to add condition-mitigation to it. As far as that goes, buff the effect of Healing Power. As you don’t instantly die when condition’ed up, making healing power have a serious effect on healing would “mitigate” them. While not doing quite that against direct damage because you lack the opportunity.

as i said, its fine in pve, but dont implement thisinto wvw and pvp

and ful dire necros/engis / etc r terrifying in wvw, i play both conditions and direct dmg charackters, and i do think that buffing conditions further in pvp gameplay is a rly bad idea

Wyrden.4713:

as i said, its fine in pve, but dont implement thisinto wvw and pvp

and ful dire necros/engis / etc r terrifying in wvw, i play both conditions and direct dmg charackters, and i do think that buffing conditions further in pvp gameplay is a rly bad idea

Eh. Are you doing this weird 1v1 roaming thing where you’re open to just be steamrolled by anyone smart enough to group up?

Because in any organized WvW or tPvP, conditions play a minor role at best. The control- and binary-conditions are somewhat important most of the time, the damage ones… eh, who cares? People get assist-bursted down anyhow, makes no difference.

Ofc, if you 1v1, yes, conditions can be dangerous. Solution: don’t set yourself up to be killed, play smarter. Outnumber the enemy, WvW gives you the tools to do so by not restricting you much in how you set up your side.
If you intentionally make yourself weak to conditions (single target, hence limited access to AE cleansing, ideally anti-direct-damage gear but no Vit or HP at all because who’d ever need that, solo so you need extended time to down a target), then are you really all that surprised that conditions are suddenly dangerous to you?

If you look at a situation where the cards aren’t specifically stacked in condition-favour, then conditions are just absent. They’re too weak, too easily cleansing and just too easily ignored for how fast people die.

How about we just make condition damage only work in PVE and get rid of it in PvP?

Blackjack.2083:

How about we just make condition damage only work in PVE and get rid of it in PvP?

That makes some screwed but serious amount of sense, seeing how direct damage is already dominating PvP. Might as well get rid of conditions.

Oooooor, we stop behaving like little kids and realize that actually, the problems people have with conditions when fighting solo are a direct result of the issues conditions face in anything but solo play.

Why not. . . .

Any damage that is “negated” on account of condition stack caps is immediately converted to physical damage (with all the reductions possible due to armor)?

This applies to 1 second of the damage (per condition which was negated due to stack limits) versus adding ALL the damage over time.

You can adjust the formula to get the right balance.

Bombsaway.7198:

Why not. . . .

Any damage that is “negated” on account of condition stack caps is immediately converted to physical damage (with all the reductions possible due to armor)?

This applies to 1 second of the damage (per condition which was negated due to stack limits) versus adding ALL the damage over time.

You can adjust the formula to get the right balance.

That doesn’t solve anything since it will still be a dps decrease. What conditions need is to fully apply their full damage even with multiple sources of the damage.

Also it’d further promote Toughness as the sole defensive stat and devalue Vitality even more.
Healing Power also but it really doesn’t matter any more whether you make that any weaker.

Well I started this thread to make the capped issue of conditions problem less of an issue.

Of course we could say in pvp there would be an issue if 5 people would start casting bleeds on 1 character and spiking him, but would it make sense in gameplay? and would the investment in time and loss of cap points actually benefit the group stacking “100 bleeds on 1 character” (doubt this amount would ever be reached though even if your character had a 100000 HP)

I understand there is a fear for massive condition stacks, but it is not interesting for a team to spike ppl with so many spells… the only way I would see 60+ bleeds happen is with several sword warriors (4 or 5) all casting flurry at once. And what would they benefit from their actions? they would all lose their adrenaline and cooldowns…
Stacking more then 15-20 bleeds in any gamesetting (be it PvE, WvW or PvP) vs a player is fatal, stacking 100 would be overkill, and overkill is not sensible gameplay. also even if a theroretical 100 bleed would be achieved in pvp all it takes is 1 condi cleanse to remove ALL damage potential?

The removing of caps is generally meant for PvE and WvW where the effect would only be noticable on HP bags like champions and legendary enemies (as they do have healthpools of 100000’s of points, when scaling)

When looking at conditions: Conditions atm have only 1 place where they are viable: pvp, and I only see posts of ppl wanting them negated , removed , lessened, or otherwise nerfed…, second place where conditions can be used is single player pve, so story line, and solo gaming. But players will need a second build for any group events, dungeons and other instances where more then 2 condition players group, because they are ignored -damage wise- if they do not. this seocnd part is the one I want to braek open. I have only played a tiny amount of pvp and the only games I won were while playing condi mancer, condi ranger and condi warrior. I learned most people ignore DOT as it seems not so powerful, and I learned good players are well aware of the dangers of DOT and know when to attack and when to retreat cleanse and heal up.

So I do not understand the deflection of this thread to pvp , as the theoretics are nice to think about but not a real sensible way of playing.

So pls divert your attention back to the topic:

removing of the stack cap for conditions – in general- and hence a :

“Condition rework solution.”

Carighan.6758:

Also it’d further promote Toughness as the sole defensive stat and devalue Vitality even more.
Healing Power also but it really doesn’t matter any more whether you make that any weaker.

Well looking at things I could actually see healing power as a mitigation to most conditions… I would like to amend this to the discussion

-Regarding healing power for mitigation of condition dmg. :

It would fit the bill,
healing power vs bleeding, poisoning, burning, confusion, fears, terror, weakness, vunerability and so on… But I think it should be a scaling system based on reduction of damage based on the healing power points, keeping in mind I got my clerics guardian up to 2100 healing power… without sigil of life….

Also should mitigation be besed around duration reduction OR damage reduction.

I wouldn’t make it directly reduce damage, just improve the – seriously awful – scaling on virtually every healing effect in the game. Even Regeneration, the one somewhat decent scaling effect, still scales much much too low to be of value in most fights.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Carighan.6758:

Also it’d further promote Toughness as the sole defensive stat and devalue Vitality even more.
Healing Power also but it really doesn’t matter any more whether you make that any weaker.

Well looking at things I could actually see healing power as a mitigation to most conditions… I would like to amend this to the discussion

-Regarding healing power for mitigation of condition dmg. :

It would fit the bill,
healing power vs bleeding, poisoning, burning, confusion, fears, terror, weakness, vunerability and so on… But I think it should be a scaling system based on reduction of damage based on the healing power points, keeping in mind I got my clerics guardian up to 2100 healing power… without sigil of life….

Also should mitigation be besed around duration reduction OR damage reduction.

I have to disagree.

Conditions are meant to be a weak, secure stream of damage. Cleanses and -X% duration stretches that concept already. The only guarantue you have left is that if you have X stacks on your foe then you know you will deal Y damage. Making healing power reduce that damage will kill that idea.

Also making healing power reduce duration is stupid since we can already have -65% in wvw and 25% in pvp from other sources.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Well I started this thread to make the capped issue of conditions problem less of an issue.

Of course we could say in pvp there would be an issue if 5 people would start casting bleeds on 1 character and spiking him, but would it make sense in gameplay? and would the investment in time and loss of cap points actually benefit the group stacking “100 bleeds on 1 character” (doubt this amount would ever be reached though even if your character had a 100000 HP)

I understand there is a fear for massive condition stacks, but it is not interesting for a team to spike ppl with so many spells… the only way I would see 60+ bleeds happen is with several sword warriors (4 or 5) all casting flurry at once. And what would they benefit from their actions? they would all lose their adrenaline and cooldowns…
Stacking more then 15-20 bleeds in any gamesetting (be it PvE, WvW or PvP) vs a player is fatal, stacking 100 would be overkill, and overkill is not sensible gameplay. also even if a theroretical 100 bleed would be achieved in pvp all it takes is 1 condi cleanse to remove ALL damage potential?

The removing of caps is generally meant for PvE and WvW where the effect would only be noticable on HP bags like champions and legendary enemies (as they do have healthpools of 100000’s of points, when scaling)

When looking at conditions: Conditions atm have only 1 place where they are viable: pvp, and I only see posts of ppl wanting them negated , removed , lessened, or otherwise nerfed…, second place where conditions can be used is single player pve, so story line, and solo gaming. But players will need a second build for any group events, dungeons and other instances where more then 2 condition players group, because they are ignored -damage wise- if they do not. this seocnd part is the one I want to braek open. I have only played a tiny amount of pvp and the only games I won were while playing condi mancer, condi ranger and condi warrior. I learned most people ignore DOT as it seems not so powerful, and I learned good players are well aware of the dangers of DOT and know when to attack and when to retreat cleanse and heal up.

So I do not understand the deflection of this thread to pvp , as the theoretics are nice to think about but not a real sensible way of playing.

So pls divert your attention back to the topic:

removing of the stack cap for conditions – in general- and hence a :

“Condition rework solution.”

that many bleeds, then a necro goes epidemic!

Blackjack.2083:

How about we just make condition damage only work in PVE and get rid of it in PvP?

O.o and what happens to every condition related gear,skill,trait line that people already invested in? Increase damage against foes with x condition or x number of conditions,control conditions will be gone so no more need for CC and boons the game will be ruined. Many weapons would have to go or be redone.

Careful of what you say………

Sagat.3285:

Blackjack.2083:

How about we just make condition damage only work in PVE and get rid of it in PvP?

O.o and what happens to every condition related gear,skill,trait line that people already invested in? Increase damage against foes with x condition or x number of conditions,control conditions will be gone so no more need for CC and boons the game will be ruined. Many weapons would have to go or be redone.

Careful of what you say………

Pvp gear is free.

NinjaEd.3946:

Pvp gear is free.

Oh you mean, sPvP. Yeah, minor sidegame. Figured PvP meant mostly WvW since it’s the much larger and more popular format.

NinjaEd.3946:

Sagat.3285:

Blackjack.2083:

How about we just make condition damage only work in PVE and get rid of it in PvP?

O.o and what happens to every condition related gear,skill,trait line that people already invested in? Increase damage against foes with x condition or x number of conditions,control conditions will be gone so no more need for CC and boons the game will be ruined. Many weapons would have to go or be redone.

Careful of what you say………

Pvp gear is free.

WWW is not reliable for fun or roaming. I seriously want to have all sets,runes and sigils available in pvp. Just because it’s free doesn’t mean you can change it to your liking anytime you want.

They would have to create different traits for pve and pvp which is very awkward don’t forget the damage multiplier traits wich helps direct damage. Just remove cap in pve and we all fine stop destroying diversity.

Sagat.3285:

NinjaEd.3946:

Sagat.3285:

Blackjack.2083:

How about we just make condition damage only work in PVE and get rid of it in PvP?

O.o and what happens to every condition related gear,skill,trait line that people already invested in? Increase damage against foes with x condition or x number of conditions,control conditions will be gone so no more need for CC and boons the game will be ruined. Many weapons would have to go or be redone.

Careful of what you say………

Pvp gear is free.

WWW is not reliable for fun or roaming. I seriously want to have all sets,runes and sigils available in pvp. Just because it’s free doesn’t mean you can change it to your liking anytime you want.

They would have to create different traits for pve and pvp which is very awkward don’t forget the damage multiplier traits wich helps direct damage. Just remove cap in pve and we all fine stop destroying diversity.

Then things would be even worse than they already are in pvp. Perlexity runes are very strong, the dire set is very strong (assuming they don’t have condi immunity like diamond skin), even the new nomad’s set would be broken for some bunker spec’s. Those kinds of things bend a lot of rules which wouldn’t be healthy for a place focused on pvp balance even if its attending is on a 24/7 lunch break.

NinjaEd.3946:

Sagat.3285:

NinjaEd.3946:

Sagat.3285:

Blackjack.2083:

How about we just make condition damage only work in PVE and get rid of it in PvP?

O.o and what happens to every condition related gear,skill,trait line that people already invested in? Increase damage against foes with x condition or x number of conditions,control conditions will be gone so no more need for CC and boons the game will be ruined. Many weapons would have to go or be redone.

Careful of what you say………

Pvp gear is free.

WWW is not reliable for fun or roaming. I seriously want to have all sets,runes and sigils available in pvp. Just because it’s free doesn’t mean you can change it to your liking anytime you want.

They would have to create different traits for pve and pvp which is very awkward don’t forget the damage multiplier traits wich helps direct damage. Just remove cap in pve and we all fine stop destroying diversity.

Then things would be even worse than they already are in pvp. Perlexity runes are very strong, the dire set is very strong (assuming they don’t have condi immunity like diamond skin), even the new nomad’s set would be broken for some bunker spec’s. Those kinds of things bend a lot of rules which wouldn’t be healthy for a place focused on pvp balance even if its attending is on a 24/7 lunch break.

I don’t get it how is pvp broken? People keep complaining while I see nothing but only Turret engi if they take their time to place turrets in hidden places but that’s tactics I can’t reproach that. Why are bunkers feared? Food is not even in pvp anyway.

But we are off topic right now.. only solution find a way for condition users to not negate each other’s damage. It’s hard having to enjoy your conditions only in roaming and pvp.

When I said just make conditions in PvE it was a little tongue in cheek obviously but I really wouldn’t be against the idea. Why? Mostly because I believe that one of the biggest problems that GW2 has always struggled with is trying to balance three distinct game modes, PvE/WvW/sPvP. They are all completely different and classes or abilities that are OP in one are often UP in another. You end up getting cries undoubtedly from one camp or another no matter what you try to do.

What I wish GW2 would have done was to drastically limit the number of classes that really could make condition based builds. Like Necromancer, the whole class just screams condition based class and I’m ok with that. If you really liked the idea of condition based class than that would be the one you played. What we have now is a situation where almost every class can make a condition based build. Combine that with the ease at which conditions can be applied, ie auto attacks, and access from so many classes it is a recipe for disaster.

You now are trying to balance three game modes, and 8 different classes, around a easily applied attack. In sPvP and I’d say even in WvW you promote building condition bunkers that can apply high damage with the ability to build completely defensive….not to mention play defensively. Its a high reward low risk play style. In PvE it is in a less than desirable place. Now imagine if only 1 or 2 class types were really condition classes. Well you just made things a whole heck of a lot easier to balance.

Blackjack.2083:

When I said just make conditions in PvE it was a little tongue in cheek obviously but I really wouldn’t be against the idea. Why? Mostly because I believe that one of the biggest problems that GW2 has always struggled with is trying to balance three distinct game modes, PvE/WvW/sPvP. They are all completely different and classes or abilities that are OP in one are often UP in another. You end up getting cries undoubtedly from one camp or another no matter what you try to do.

What I wish GW2 would have done was to drastically limit the number of classes that really could make condition based builds. Like Necromancer, the whole class just screams condition based class and I’m ok with that. If you really liked the idea of condition based class than that would be the one you played. What we have now is a situation where almost every class can make a condition based build. Combine that with the ease at which conditions can be applied, ie auto attacks, and access from so many classes it is a recipe for disaster.

You now are trying to balance three game modes, and 8 different classes, around a easily applied attack. In sPvP and I’d say even in WvW you promote building condition bunkers that can apply high damage with the ability to build completely defensive….not to mention play defensively. Its a high reward low risk play style. In PvE it is in a less than desirable place. Now imagine if only 1 or 2 class types were really condition classes. Well you just made things a whole heck of a lot easier to balance.

Then the same should go for direct damage if I follow your logic.

All classes have a trait line with condition damage and related traits,weapons and utilities. How we supposed to make your perspective happen. Do not come up with with any idea of lessening or removing condition it’s about rework so it’s available for all.

We all know the solution already we’ll just wait to see when will it actually happen.

Sagat.3285:

Blackjack.2083:

When I said just make conditions in PvE it was a little tongue in cheek obviously but I really wouldn’t be against the idea. Why? Mostly because I believe that one of the biggest problems that GW2 has always struggled with is trying to balance three distinct game modes, PvE/WvW/sPvP. They are all completely different and classes or abilities that are OP in one are often UP in another. You end up getting cries undoubtedly from one camp or another no matter what you try to do.

What I wish GW2 would have done was to drastically limit the number of classes that really could make condition based builds. Like Necromancer, the whole class just screams condition based class and I’m ok with that. If you really liked the idea of condition based class than that would be the one you played. What we have now is a situation where almost every class can make a condition based build. Combine that with the ease at which conditions can be applied, ie auto attacks, and access from so many classes it is a recipe for disaster.

You now are trying to balance three game modes, and 8 different classes, around a easily applied attack. In sPvP and I’d say even in WvW you promote building condition bunkers that can apply high damage with the ability to build completely defensive….not to mention play defensively. Its a high reward low risk play style. In PvE it is in a less than desirable place. Now imagine if only 1 or 2 class types were really condition classes. Well you just made things a whole heck of a lot easier to balance.

Then the same should go for direct damage if I follow your logic.

All classes have a trait line with condition damage and related traits,weapons and utilities. How we supposed to make your perspective happen. Do not come up with with any idea of lessening or removing condition it’s about rework so it’s available for all.

We all know the solution already we’ll just wait to see when will it actually happen.

Sagat, I think you might be kidding yourself if you think “we all know the solution” regarding conditions since there are about a hundred different posts about them and just as many opinions on there current state concerning PvE/WvW/sPvP.

I just want a sword on my warrior to not be junk because I’m playing with a friend or because someone else is attacking that boss enemy.

So many games have the best weapons as the stupid buster swords or some other unwieldy over sized jrpg weapon.

Come on.
I just want to use a sword in pve without having to play Solo Wars 2.

Though I don’t have a whole lot of experience, my highest being a lv50 ele I play with my friend in pve, even I can tell the way that condition damage works is kind of stupid.