Guild Wars 2

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Read my comment again… You did nothing to prove that it is a problem with the game’s mechanic, but once more reinforced your believes as to why you struggle with it…

But hey, I am a nice guy… I will give you a hint as to where to start: Redesign Thief completely… Number by number, trait by trait… good luck

There’s nothing to prove. I believe that it would be better if it were changed. And most people agree with me rather than you that it is perfect as it is.

And I don’t have to redesign thief. I and others can and have given them some points. That’s the purpose of the Profession Balance thread. To discuss Profession Balance. It’s Anet’s job to address the comments or not and implement or not the suggestions of the players.

Anyway you are prone to extremes and exaggerations I detect (perhaps why you like thief and stealth as it is). You wouldn’t need to redesign it completely, number by number, trait by trait. Adjustments true, a complete redesign no.

Johje Holan.4607:

There’s nothing to prove. I believe that it would be better if it were changed. And most people agree with me rather than you that it is perfect as it is.

Yes, yes there is. Unless you just enjoy wasting your time making aimless complaints, nothing will ever happen unless you can prove to the right people that a change is reasonable. So far, I agree that you have not

Johje Holan.4607:

And I don’t have to redesign thief. I and others can and have given them some points. That’s the purpose of the Profession Balance thread. To discuss Profession Balance. It’s Anet’s job to address the comments or not and implement or not the suggestions of the players.

Yeah, actually you do if you want to be taken seriously. If you are going to suggest damaging the care mechanic of a profession, and not suggest how you compensate, you are spitting into the wind.

Johje Holan.4607:

Anyway you are prone to extremes and exaggerations I detect (perhaps why you like thief and stealth as it is). You wouldn’t need to redesign it completely, number by number, trait by trait. Adjustments true, a complete redesign no.

Basically, you actually would. Honestly, I do not consider it exaggeration, I consider it reasonable. As I see it, you suggestion to tear out core mechanics and not go through with ideas to compensate for it in every weapon skill, utility, and trait, is extreme exaggeration.

Johje Holan.4607:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Read my comment again… You did nothing to prove that it is a problem with the game’s mechanic, but once more reinforced your believes as to why you struggle with it…

But hey, I am a nice guy… I will give you a hint as to where to start: Redesign Thief completely… Number by number, trait by trait… good luck

There’s nothing to prove. I believe that it would be better if it were changed. And most people agree with me rather than you that it is perfect as it is.

And I don’t have to redesign thief. I and others can and have given them some points. That’s the purpose of the Profession Balance thread. To discuss Profession Balance. It’s Anet’s job to address the comments or not and implement or not the suggestions of the players.

Anyway you are prone to extremes and exaggerations I detect (perhaps why you like thief and stealth as it is). You wouldn’t need to redesign it completely, number by number, trait by trait. Adjustments true, a complete redesign no.

I prefer reliable people rather than most people it’s all about quality not quantity. Your problem is that you see stealh as just invisible and avoid the rest. Stealth is cleansing,healing,blind,initiative, stomp,reset,damage…adjustments wouldn’t cut it no matter how many…

Stealth untraited or traited plays a bigger role than you and your supporters think so yes a redesign would be necessary. 5 minutes CD……just wow…..they don’t even have to look at this thread.

First sentence… = moving on..

Sagat.3285:

Stealth is cleansing,healing,blind,initiative, stomp,reset,damage…adjustments wouldn’t cut it no matter how many…

Perhaps you have me confused with the OP. But in any case given what you said here I think you’re demonstrating my point.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Johje Holan.4607:

There’s nothing to prove. I believe that it would be better if it were changed. And most people agree with me rather than you that it is perfect as it is.

Yes, yes there is. Unless you just enjoy wasting your time making aimless complaints, nothing will ever happen unless you can prove to the right people that a change is reasonable. So far, I agree that you have not

I guess you’re using a diffrent definition of prove. I come from a scientific and mathematical background. But perhaps you all are using it in the lawyerly fashion. As in I need to prove my case to the jury (Anet) in order to prosecute the bad guy (thief) and win my case (stealth and thieves suck).

You’re right, that would be a waste of time. Litigators are mearly good arguers and they just can argue one side or the other rightly or wrongly. I’m not a good debater so I think I’ll just continue to provide character witness along with the many many many other people who complain about the subject. Heck there’s probably already another thread started about it.

Johje Holan.4607:

And I don’t have to redesign thief. I and others can and have given them some points. That’s the purpose of the Profession Balance thread. To discuss Profession Balance. It’s Anet’s job to address the comments or not and implement or not the suggestions of the players.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Yeah, actually you do if you want to be taken seriously. If you are going to suggest damaging the care mechanic of a profession, and not suggest how you compensate, you are spitting into the wind.

Johje Holan.4607:

Anyway you are prone to extremes and exaggerations I detect (perhaps why you like thief and stealth as it is). You wouldn’t need to redesign it completely, number by number, trait by trait. Adjustments true, a complete redesign no.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Basically, you actually would. Honestly, I do not consider it exaggeration, I consider it reasonable. As I see it, you suggestion to tear out core mechanics and not go through with ideas to compensate for it in every weapon skill, utility, and trait, is extreme exaggeration.

It’s not the core mechanic of the profession – steal is. But I’ll meet you all in the middle on this one. It would take a large amount of changes to conpensate for stealth. Which actually goes further to prove, er, support my position (see the previous poster, he makes the point of how broken stealth is better than me without even trying and convinced me of the larger changes needed).

Stealth IS actually thief class mechanic because thief is only class in game that has stealth attacks. Name me any other class that has attacks that require stealth, especially as main source of dmg.

Johje Holan.4607:

Sagat.3285:

Stealth is cleansing,healing,blind,initiative, stomp,reset,damage…adjustments wouldn’t cut it no matter how many…

Perhaps you have me confused with the OP. But in any case given what you said here I think you’re demonstrating my point.

Yeah kind of lol but like someone just mentioned thief is also the only one with the stealth attack design.

Cynz.9437:

Stealth IS actually thief class mechanic because thief is only class in game that has stealth attacks. Name me any other class that has attacks that require stealth, especially as main source of dmg.

I object. Immeterial.

Johje Holan.4607:

Cynz.9437:

Stealth IS actually thief class mechanic because thief is only class in game that has stealth attacks. Name me any other class that has attacks that require stealth, especially as main source of dmg.

I object. Immeterial.

Johje is correct. Stealth is not a “professional” mechanic of thief.

Above i never said removing “the” core mechanic. I mentioned “removing core mechanics”. There is a very different meaning.

I think I did the same thing someone else did, and started confusing your post with that of the OP.

While stealth isn’t the core mechanic, it’s a VERY big part of thief.

I much prefer the short duration bursts.

The act of entering stealth is very easy to predict. Even predicting another thief’s movement patterns if often easy. The number of CnD’s and backstabs I land while other thieves are in stealth is so incredibly high that I often believe thieves are the easiest class to kill as a thief myself or on really any of my other characters. So many are not prepared to be hit when stealthed. So when you do, it becomes pretty much a free kill.

Long-duration stealth is toxic. Really. OP’s suggestion would totally break the mesmer class to the point of absolutely ridiculous overpoweredness and put the thief in such a weak spot that the class would just not be playable based upon its current state. It’d also just lead to way more QQ about burst thieves being able to ambush people without any kind of warning, regardless of how good a given player is at examining his surroundings. At the moment, it’s not possible to maintain permanent stealth uptime and have enough initiative/utilities off cooldown to engage in a fight and have a chance of winning against a half-skilled opponent. This means players who look into the distance and constantly check their surroundings pretty much have a guaranteed opportunity to detect an incoming thief. Only if they get LOS’ed is this not the case.

My gripe is the way projectiles are handled in the game. A target entering stealth is barely punishing for a melee character, for all that happens is a lack of indication of where the target is/auto-attacks not continuing. With some ranged options, projectiles do not follow their proper trajectory without a target selected, making it in some cases impossible to hit the target even if the player knows where the stealthed target is. That said, I’m not quite sure if I am capable of providing a proper solution; hotboxes are still very small on projectiles, so maxing out their trajectory in two-dimensional space without a target would prove to be insufficient as a proper solution (although a step in the right direction), as then also three-dimensional combat is not handled, and aiming the shots would be quite difficult due to small projectile hitboxes on many attacks.

To all that want to completely redesign the stealthy classes: Try it by yourself first, you will see that it’s not possible to change a mechanic that is a core for one class and used by two others frequently.

Solution: Go play another game where stealth is like you want, there’s plenty of them…. or you know, just L2P GW2, because GW2 are different on PURPOSE, you know?

delete it… i mean stealth, delete it entirely please.
No not just from GW2, from the internet. This whole assasin ninja darkshadowwhatever thing. Just stop bringin them again and again in onlinegames to ruin what could have been a fun game.

Yes im serious, this whole concept is broken by design and is poison for team-games because there are just 2 szenarios:

A. The super sneaky invisible darkshadowkiller instakill you without a chance to react. Then its working as inteded and ofc its absurdly broken.

or

B. He can not, then its useless.

But this game here ….. as much as i love gw2, this game here is ridiculous regarding stealth. About 5 buddies have quit because of that. I play mostly WvW, most of the time solo (now..) and smallscale. I roam since beta, i have all 8 chars on 80 and i have to design every single dam build against thiefs.

Jes jes here in the forums you guys all defend your toons, but ive never met a player online in TS who could not admit that they are about the most broken thing ever in Onlinegaming history.

Kontrolle.3514:

they are about the most broken thing ever in Onlinegaming history.

Why don’t you tell us how you really feel? It’s not like this is biased or anything

These threads are so kitten pointless

Stealth has been complained about for two years – please find another game because this one won’t be changing in these type of drastic ways

I still think all that would need to change dealing with stealth for each class is the following.

Thieves: Lower the access to stealth through D/P (which is where most stealth complaints seem to come from when fighting thieves)
Mesmers: Make it so Mesmer stealth does not bypass revealed (because unless I remember incorrectly, Decoy and the mesmer stealth abilities like it IGNORE reveal).

There, we’ve fixed it.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Mesmers: Make it so Mesmer stealth does not bypass revealed (because unless I remember incorrectly, Decoy and the mesmer stealth abilities like it IGNORE reveal).

According to the patchnotes the last feature patch fixed this.

•Decoy: •Fixed a bug that allowed this skill to stealth the player when they were revealed.

•Desperate Decoy: •Fixed a bug that allowed this trait to stealth the player when they were revealed.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-September-9-2014/first#post4380305

Ahh, I see. Then I have no problems with Mesmer stealth atm.

Hahah, this is probably why you don’t work for ArenaNet. Sorry man but nooo

@ OP (Part 1)

You want to turn GW2 into a copy of an other game in regard of Stealth Mechanics, you wildly throw around with % number increases for damage buffs (25% damage increases are no freaking peanuts, thats way over the top with that you would turn Thieves into walking killing machines!!)

Just suggesting to give thieves a freaking 5 minute cooldown on stealth just shows me cleaarly, that you absolutely have no clue at all about what you are talking and completely no experience at all with playing a thief at all, because anybody with just half of a brain and simple 1 day of play experience of a thief would instantly know, that such a cool down would completely BREAK the whole class gameplay concept of the thief, which relies in its current design concept way too much on steealth for its defense. There a 5 mion stealth cool down and you have litereally a jumping fish outside of water on the silver platter presented for everybody, whose only defense he has is just to dodge every now and then an attack or to try to perfectly time your blinds before an enemy hits you with their attacks – both EXTREMELY limited and often also very unreliable forms of defense/ damage mitigation.
The most reliable damage mitigation and at the same time passive defense as like offense preparation is and always will be stealth for the thief as the thief needs stealth to be able to perform his most dangerous attacks, all other weapon skill attacks are compared to other skilsl of other classes due to their spammy speed sub par as a counter balance, to do be able to deal heavy burst damage, you need to try to outplay your foes as often as possible through stealth to land at the right moments your bs, or your a sneak attack which are the only stealth attacks of the thief, that are able to dish out some serious deadly burst damagein a matter of seconds with 1 to kittens + bleeding, especially when those hits deal critical damage.

But Game Balancing doesn’t work like this, you can’t expect from a Game like GW2, that everything is fine balanced by just pushing 2 classes up by a whopping 25% damage boost, just therefore that you destroy the thieves secondary main mechanic thats mostly used for defense and ambushes to get the surprise effect on your side to get this way a little starting advantage in a battle or if lucky and you hit a squicky berserker using player with real low health maybe a quick kill. Copy patign other games mechanics just into GW2 and expectign, that everythign works here, like there, is also not the right way.
2 different games, 2 completely different combat systems with tons of different class gameplay mechanics to recondider for a whole picture around the game balance and not just a tiny part of that picture about which you try to patch around the real problem of the thief by making just only some minor changes to stealth and thinking, that just buffign the damage up by 25% would work as a good compentation therefory that you destroyed the thief’s basic main defense system number one.

For your information, I play thief mainly, since nearly begin of this game, so I sure have plenty of more expereince with that class, than you and the whole stealth mechanic, which isnät absolutely comparböle with that of the mesmer, which doesn’t need so much to rely on stealth, because you can pop up in a matter of seconds gazillions of new clones to irritate your foes in an effect spam of AoEs, whirling phantasms all on/in/at you and everywhere around you by just making a simple dodge roll or popping 2 at the click of an utility, or creating them on blocks or general usage of weapons skills…just missing that you pop new clones from shattering old ones /sarcasm endless loop style face to keyboard-game plays itself-mode >.>

Part 2

As other people have already said it here, the Ranger and the Thief are both classes, which are in a dire need of a complete redesign, to where I do agree in certain aspects.

But destroying the thief by changing its stealth mechanic into a ridiculous 1 time only every 5 minutes thing is absolutely not the right way, nor is changing rangers into walking railguns the right way to balance them, therefore that their pet system still sucks hard and literelly went with the feature patch completely untouched to all our disappointment.

Stealth Duration should get increased, yes, so fardo I agree, but not to permanent stealth. That would be totally OP, if you could be invisible forever and thus basically bypass everything in this game. Have you even given a freaking thought about it what you suggested there for a singly penny, for what this would just mean to PvE, if there could every mesmer and thief play the game being permanently invisible???
I guess not.

Sure, you said, your changes should be WvW/PvP only, but Anet can’t so easily change complete class mechanics between all different gameplay modes as you seem to believe. ANet already had alot of problems with that in GW1, which is a reason, why all skills and class mechanics are here for PvE,WvW and PvP working exactly the same.

Also your silly penalty with the totaly unneccesary movement speed reduction by whoping 30% shows me even more, how less clues you have about playing a thief and how important positioning is alot for them to survive, theres a movement speed reduction in stealth ttoally counterproductive for the whole class and just showes me, that your whole intention must be just to destroy the thief, because you surely are one of those mesmers, that stands no chance agaisnt a well played thief and constantly kisses the ground against their superior stealth, where you have just only your lousy mass invisibility and that 3 second torch stealth from the prestige as also veil, which are all options that come together with cooldown times, while the indirect only cooldown time thieves have is reveal and besides of that basically can always stealth, whenever they most likely want. But even that seems to cripple down anet now slowly more and more due to the constant QQ of alot of people that are too incompetent to make some simple predictions what a stealthed thief might try to do while being in stealth, especially while using a dagger in offhand…or in case of a mesmer, what he might try to do after using the prestige… 3…2….1 burn baby burn…so obvious

/no offense, just sick of this constant stealth QQ

Would have to rebalance remorseless for ranger’s, do you really want to nerf ranger? O.o

I know you’re all ok with nerfing thief but nerf Mesmer? Get a clone beat down.
Nerf ranger? Get tommy gunned down.
Nerf to engineer? Get melted like ice cream under the sun in Columbia.

/mindkittenderailingstrategy

I’m not even going to mention how silly the 5 minute cooldown would be, but honestly, I agree with the idea of a movement speed reduction while in stealth. There needs to be some sort of tradeoff for the disengage power that stealth provides, and a lower movement speed would be a perfect way to encourage the use of stealth as preparation instead of using it as an “oh kitten” mechanic.

IMO Steal should become a Utility skill, and his F1 would be Stealth.

- A 10s stealth duration with 15s cooldown, insta-cast. No need of Reveal anymore.

- 6 points in Trickery will give you +30% (3s) duration and one of the GM traits +20% (2s) and Daze on the first hit. Summing up to 15s duration, which means thieves would be able to roam around perma-stealth, but not be able to stealth every 4s in combat.

- Steal and Stealth skills/traits should be reworked.

FLiP.7680:

IMO Steal should become a Utility skill, and his F1 would be Stealth.

- A 10s stealth duration with 15s cooldown, insta-cast. No need of Reveal anymore.

- 6 points in Trickery will give you +30% (3s) duration and one of the GM traits +20% (2s) and Daze on the first hit. Summing up to 15s duration, which means thieves would be able to roam around perma-stealth, but not be able to stealth every 4s in combat.

- Steal and Stealth skills/traits should be reworked.

This would be interesting, but it would also take some viability out of several builds that already don’t rely on stealth but use steal to great effect. Also seeing as everyone and their mother has some deep seated hatred for stealth, this would probably never happen. They already complain about “perma stealth” thieves, the last they we need is for there actually to be perma-stealth thieves.

Orpheal.8263:

good that you are not responsible for class design OP, your changes would instantly destroy 2 classes forever for this game.

I have a suggestion for you OP.
Play a Thief/Mesmer… and L2P, then you might have lesser problems fighting against a skilled player that makes good usage of Stealth at the right moments to outplay you and you might learn, how to counter such players better.

Then theres no need to destroy 2 classes completely, only so that you have then a chance to win against peopel that play these classes, because you are unable to protect yourself, or predict, what your enemy will try while being in stealth…

This is just another QQ Stealth thread like countless others from persons, which are unable/unwilling to learn the game mechanics and aren’t willign to improve their own gameplay, but rather want everything in the game changed to their likings so that everything with that they have the slightest problems with gets erased for them, so that they don’t have to improve themself anymore but rather can 1111111 all enemies just to death

the same thoughts i had when i read ops post…