Guild Wars 2

remove target while stealthes but once they appear give us our target back…

in a group setting tab target doesn’t cut it you will always attack something else and thieves and mesmers have quite frequent access to stealth so as soon as you click them they are gone again

love the no response but we all know its true in crowded situations =p

That would make it broken as ranged or casters could just be lazy and sit back with their finger on a channel skill, press as soon as they see the HP bar appear at the top of their screen (without needing to face the target) and win all the time.

Not to mention the mesmer clone issue. You’d always know which is a clone because it wouldn’t be targeted when the real one goes into stealth.

They either need to dramatically adjust the initiative regen of the class or they need to overhaul the whole stealth system to resemble WoW. Best of luck to either scenario happening.

Yeah this game needs to be like WoW. That would solve this problem! GW2 needs to be less like an individual game with its own set of mechanics we need to learn, and more like a game with pandas in it!

godz raiden.2631:

Yeah this game needs to be like WoW. That would solve this problem! GW2 needs to be less like an individual game with its own set of mechanics we need to learn, and more like a game with pandas in it!

Or you can look at a game that probably has the best implemented stealth class ever to be seen in any MMO and compare it to GW2 which is easily the absolute worst ever conceived and understand that changes need to be made.

Look! I can fly off the handle too!

Atherakhia.4086:

godz raiden.2631:

Yeah this game needs to be like WoW. That would solve this problem! GW2 needs to be less like an individual game with its own set of mechanics we need to learn, and more like a game with pandas in it!

Or you can look at a game that probably has the best implemented stealth class ever to be seen in any MMO and compare it to GW2 which is easily the absolute worst ever conceived and understand that changes need to be made.

Look! I can fly off the handle too!

SO TRUE !!! this^

Rogues the best implemented stealth class? Lol not even defending the thief I just thought that was funny.

rogue is a much better concept compared to thief …

If stealth was as bad as you make it sound with threads like this, and if the stealth classes were much better balanced in other MMOs, then you should be playing the other MMOs. If WoW is so much better then why don’t you play that game instead? Nobody is forcing you to play this game, and you can’t be bothered to learn how to play against stealth, so your best option would probably be to quit GW2 and play WoW I think. Good luck with the pandas!

Sasajoe.1509:

rogue is a much better concept compared to thief …

I would LOVE to be able to stay stealthed in towers indefinitely and cheap shot uplevels in the back of a zerg. I’d be able to finish my dailies so fast…

Are you one of those people who stops attacking when thief/mesmer goes invis ? If yes then you already know what I’m going to say. L2P

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

That would make it broken as ranged or casters could just be lazy and sit back with their finger on a channel skill, press as soon as they see the HP bar appear at the top of their screen (without needing to face the target) and win all the time.

Not to mention the mesmer clone issue. You’d always know which is a clone because it wouldn’t be targeted when the real one goes into stealth.

Stealth is a equivalent to a immunity button against ranged and casters. So I don’t think it is a problem.

The sad thing is, waaaaaay back when they first talked about the thief class, they said it wouldn’t be a stupidly OP class that kills you from stealth, without you being able to react… nope.. no gank classes in GW2! Thieves in our game will only use stealth as a defense mechanism; one with long cooldowns so that it can’t be spammed.

…and instead we ended up with the most OP stealth class ever designed.

I haven’t played Rift in years, but when I did, I thought their stealth class was very well balanced. It was similar to WoW’s, but much less ganky.

Possible Solution:

Have a “visibility cone” stretch out for about 200-300 inches in front of the player. If a stealthed player walks through this cone, you can see their distorted stealth image that the player sees, but still untargetable.

Also, maybe if a stealthed player attempts an attack you can see them attemping the attack for a split second.

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Atherakhia.4086:

They either need to dramatically adjust the initiative regen of the class or they need to overhaul the whole stealth system to resemble WoW. Best of luck to either scenario happening.

Go back to WoW….. That game had the worst stealthing in any game. Stealth = 100% uptime on Invisibility. The reason why GW2 has this stupid stealth system is because they tried to copy the archetype that rogues had. Rogues were incredibly hard for blizzard to balance because of it. Often as a result they were left being OP because the only other option was to nerf the whole class into obilivion.

Currently, thieves are no different, they will either be OP (in the hands of someone that knows how to use them) or they will be nigh on useless. The middle ground for these types of classes is very hard to hit.

Stealth should be useless after the opener. Once you know someone is there, they are there. A possibly cool mechanic might be to link blindness with stealth… but we could just end up back here if its not done properly.

Stealth that can be contiously re-entered into, getting out of combat, and having to fight without a target is what breaks stealth in GW2.

The whole system needs an overhaul (already). I just hope they are onto it now and not waiting for “sometime in the future.”

Eloquence.5207:

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checks forum post history

Nope, totally not a Thief main here folks.

At least other Thief mains can at least post SOME sort of argument as to why it isn’t broken. Meanwhile all you do is make attacks on player’s skill, players who you have probably never seen play before.

The reason why thieves way seem OP to you is because they don’t balance professions in hotjoin they balance them based on Top players in pvp. What is top player i dont know but i would assume rank 70+. Remember that thief is not the only profession with stealth just the one that does it best.
When i soloq the easiest profession to kill is infact theif i can facetank their backstab and kill them in 3 seconds And i am by no means a pro player in pvp.

godz raiden.2631:

If WoW is so much better then why don’t you play that game instead?

God, I love this argument so much. It’s like going to a restaurant that serves a similar dish as another, except this restaurant serves it cold when they could easily heat it up like it’s supposed to be, then when you ask them to heat it up, they tell you to leave.

Your rebuttle isn’t adding to a constructive discussion at all. They were merely comparing and contrasting a mechanic. That doesn’t mean they don’t like everything else about the game, which is keeping them playing. Your rebuttal isn’t doing anything except being a cop out for discussing an issue people are having. We’re here to discuss and it’d be nice to

Just heat up the food. We don’t need to go somewhere else. If we wanted to, we wouldn’t be here. We just like warm food.

In response to saying WoW has a better stealth mechanic, yeah that’s true. It’s also not as spammable as it is in GW2. Rogues can’t pop in and out nearly as easily. I feel the combo’s Thieves can do BP/HS leap make them rely too much on stealth which in turn makes ANet design them to have to rely too much on it, resulting in them being squishier and spammier. If they were able to have more active defensives that weren’t just evading and disappearing into stealth, they could have more sustainability in a fight and not have to spam abilities quickly and run away when someone looks at them wrongly.

I like the Thief class, I really do. I don’t want it nerfed, I just want it reworked so it’s more fun to play as and against.

Myst.9182:

Atherakhia.4086:

They either need to dramatically adjust the initiative regen of the class or they need to overhaul the whole stealth system to resemble WoW. Best of luck to either scenario happening.

Go back to WoW….. That game had the worst stealthing in any game. Stealth = 100% uptime on Invisibility. The reason why GW2 has this stupid stealth system is because they tried to copy the archetype that rogues had. Rogues were incredibly hard for blizzard to balance because of it. Often as a result they were left being OP because the only other option was to nerf the whole class into obilivion.

Currently, thieves are no different, they will either be OP (in the hands of someone that knows how to use them) or they will be nigh on useless. The middle ground for these types of classes is very hard to hit.

Stealth should be useless after the opener. Once you know someone is there, they are there. A possibly cool mechanic might be to link blindness with stealth… but we could just end up back here if its not done properly.

Stealth that can be contiously re-entered into, getting out of combat, and having to fight without a target is what breaks stealth in GW2.

The whole system needs an overhaul (already). I just hope they are onto it now and not waiting for “sometime in the future.”

so you dont like the long stealth of wow, and you dont like the short stealth of gw2….. Seems like your not leaving much room. As for connecting blindness to stealth, thats a good idea and works great
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloaked_in_Shadow
its been around since launch….

As for the whole system getting a rework (what your asking for is actually a full class redesign) 3 of 5 new traits for thief gm are stealth based, seems like anet is fine with the current mechanics, i would guess they are not working on a full redesign now OR in the future. my suggestion for you, since you hate long and short stealth, is go find a game without it, or try to play high level pvp as a stealth thief or join a wvw large group as a stealth thief your just a free loot bag

Eloquence.5207:

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Hahahaha, I got a good laugh out of this. I figured it out and just cracked up. Thanks for that.

Ezeriel.9574:

The sad thing is, waaaaaay back when they first talked about the thief class, they said it wouldn’t be a stupidly OP class that kills you from stealth, without you being able to react… nope.. no gank classes in GW2! Thieves in our game will only use stealth as a defense mechanism; one with long cooldowns so that it can’t be spammed.

Did they really say that?

I remember during the beta versions of 2011 the Thief had an elite called “Invisible Stalker” which granted you 8 seconds of stealth, even if you attack.

Still stealth in this game is too strong, but the main offenders imo are D/P (nearly impossible to prevent the thief from entering stealth whenever he wants to) and Shadow Refuge (the stealth shouldn’t stack, or at least not the 20 seconds it does now).

Stealth breaks on physical damage. Condis and aoe dont remove. Fixed

runeblade.7514:

Stealth is a equivalent to a immunity button against ranged and casters. So I don’t think it is a problem.

This statement could not be more false.

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

runeblade.7514:

Stealth is a equivalent to a immunity button against ranged and casters. So I don’t think it is a problem.

This statement could not be more false.

It actually does hold some relevance, although keeping target when a player comes back from stealth is not a good idea imo. I’d rather not simplify the games complexity while in battle. I would like to see damage remove stealth though as long as it wasn’t condi damage and just direct damage.

Grimreaper.5370:

It actually does hold some relevance,

True but what I mean is that ranged channeling is one of the most useful things vs a stealthing target thanks to how channeling works in this game. Once you start that channel you follow them without even needing to sustain a target.

I can’t think of any way you wouldn’t have some counters though. Unless you run 2 ranged weapons but even then you have at least some AOE on the weapons as well as utilities. You’d have to literally set your build up for complete failure on purpose. It’s far from immunity. I’m not saying it’s not more effective vs some range/casters but that goes with the whole different builds filling different roles thing.

I’ve even met a couple of pretty amazing rangers with LB + S/WH where stealth really didn’t matter much.

No profession is broken.

Good players are good.

Rock, paper, scissors is applicable in certain matchups.

Go ahead and nerf them to the ground, bad players will still be bad and bad players will still be dead alt tabbed complaining on here.

Rengaru.4730:

Ezeriel.9574:

The sad thing is, waaaaaay back when they first talked about the thief class, they said it wouldn’t be a stupidly OP class that kills you from stealth, without you being able to react… nope.. no gank classes in GW2! Thieves in our game will only use stealth as a defense mechanism; one with long cooldowns so that it can’t be spammed.

Did they really say that?

Oh the discussions with Anet were never ending back then, as people were rightly disgusted by ganking in wow.

“ganking” is gang killing. You’d see some poor guy running all alone, go in to confront him and BLAM! 5 thieves would attack you. One stunlocking you while the others backstabbed, and there was nothing you could do, but die… it was total BS

…and the guild name “and 5 rogues” became a popular meme.

…and Anet assured us that stuff would not happen in GW2, but it does, all the time. Any thief with good timing can spam cloak and dagger on wild life all day long.

Anet told us there would be no benefit to attacking from stealth, no backstab, no sneak attack…

Finding Anet’s reddit posts is nearly impossible, but there are plenty of discussion threads from back then:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/17144-stealth-mechanics/

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/15769-how-does-stealth-work-specifically/

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/12777-is-a-thief-without-stealth-a-viable-choice/

Revealed applying every time you leave stealth and PU split into two traits or tuned down a bit would make stealth perfectly fine IMO.

So ezeriel, you mentioned thieves stealthing off of wild life so I could assume you arent talking about pvp where stealth is so blatantly worthless that you pretty much have to go sword dagger with nothing into the crit tree to be remotely viable.

I think this game should not be balanced around PVE wvw. Wvw is a war, its balanced around numbers not classes. If you died to a solo roaming class as a class better suited for zerging, then that IS balance.

What would win 15 thieves or a group of 15 hammer warriors? The class better suited for zerging thats who would win. Wvw is not 1v1, pvp is where they need to base their balance

I would indeed love a target last target button, never been fond of the too basic targeting in this game. Though it must be added under the circumstance that it identifies the last clone spawned before or the first mesmer clone spawned after losing target of the mesmer as last target. Same with thief guild and ambush trap, and the charr backup etc.

The rest of this threads content is bullkitten.

a t s e.9614:

Are you one of those people who stops attacking when thief/mesmer goes invis ? If yes then you already know what I’m going to say. L2P

Not all abilities work very well, or at all, if there is no target.

Attacks with no cleave are very hard to land against a stealth target, goodluck hitting someone in stealth with something like a Rifle.
And weapons like Axe for Necro cannot land there 1# and 2# at all as these require a target to work (not the only of such abilities, there are more).

So “keep attacking” is not the answer. Certainly not with critical abilities that have a high importance to land. As you are far more likely to fail hitting an opponent you cannot see or target.
And with no feedback that i am actually hitting a thief i am not going to keep burning cooldowns, when for all i know the most mobile profession in the game is already 900range in any random direction. Just sitting there, waiting for me to burn cooldowns, and then jump me again.

Terrahero.9358:

Not all abilities work very well, or at all, if there is no target.

Attacks with no cleave are very hard to land against a stealth target, goodluck hitting someone in stealth with something like a Rifle.

Why would you only have a rifle though? Engi is the only thing I can think of that would only have a rifle but even then I can think of a few counters you could be using should you happen to have them equipped. Bombs/grenades/supply crate.

Terrahero.9358:

And weapons like Axe for Necro cannot land there 1# and 2# at all as these require a target to work (not the only of such abilities, there are more).

Kind of the same thing here. You do have options. If Axe 1 doesn’t work then what else do you have? Marks? Fear? Life transfer?

My point is don’t just stand there and hang your head in dismay because your target stealthed and your equipped weapon’s auto-attack can’t hit them. Swap to your second weapon set (class dependent) or use some utilities (as far as I know every class that can’t equip 2 weapon sets has utilities that do this) that do AOE dmg and stand in them, or use something that launches foes. You’d be surprised what can change a fight even against a stealthing enemy if you just don’t give up to the “IM GONNA DIE!” feeling.

alchemyst.2165:

Possible Solution:

Have a “visibility cone” stretch out for about 200-300 inches in front of the player. If a stealthed player walks through this cone, you can see their distorted stealth image that the player sees, but still untargetable.

Also, maybe if a stealthed player attempts an attack you can see them attemping the attack for a split second.

Can anybody please elaborate on my idea..lol. Whenever somebody has a good idea on thief I feel like people tend to ignore it. I main thief and I do want issues to be solved.

You know, not every thief LIKES stealth. Some of us DO want a different playstyle. Quit complaining to US like WE’RE the ones doing it wrong. (I know not everyone does this but lots do) People who say “stealth is op l2p” need to realize that they’re trying to put self imposed limits on other players just so they can win. I think it is better to instead learn how to counter it and win that way, not because the other player was holding back.

Idkkkkk man. Stealth is pretty weak in pvp already

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Terrahero.9358:

Not all abilities work very well, or at all, if there is no target.

Attacks with no cleave are very hard to land against a stealth target, goodluck hitting someone in stealth with something like a Rifle.

Why would you only have a rifle though? Engi is the only thing I can think of that would only have a rifle but even then I can think of a few counters you could be using should you happen to have them equipped. Bombs/grenades/supply crate.

Terrahero.9358:

And weapons like Axe for Necro cannot land there 1# and 2# at all as these require a target to work (not the only of such abilities, there are more).

Kind of the same thing here. You do have options. If Axe 1 doesn’t work then what else do you have? Marks? Fear? Life transfer?

My point is don’t just stand there and hang your head in dismay because your target stealthed and your equipped weapon’s auto-attack can’t hit them. Swap to your second weapon set (class dependent) or use some utilities (as far as I know every class that can’t equip 2 weapon sets has utilities that do this) that do AOE dmg and stand in them, or use something that launches foes. You’d be surprised what can change a fight even against a stealthing enemy if you just don’t give up to the “IM GONNA DIE!” feeling.

Im no saying there are no options, but people often make it sound so easy. As if Stealth changes nothing about how your abilities work or how they land. It very much does.

Merely weaponswapping isnt going to fix that either. Im using my Longbow as a Ranger, ow he went into stealth, ill switch to my GS and… wait, im to far away to begin melee’ing the air. But i also got a snowballs chance in hell of actually blindly hitting a stealthed Thief with a Longbow ability other then Barrage, but goodluck landing that in time.

I’m on my Necro but guess what, not everyone runs a Staff. And the weapons that are not a Staff often have abilities that simply need a target to work, the only other weapon that doesnt is a Warhorn, but thats not going to be much of a threat without a follow up.
And i find it entirely unreasonable that every Necro should have to run with a Staff just because of one profession abusing stealth like its going out of fashion.

On my engineer, using my grenades. Long delay between throwing and landing a grenade. I need to know where my target is and where he is going in order to predict where i have to throw.
Bombs only work if hes going after me, they make lousy weapons to chase someone around with, especially someone you cannot see. My best bet is actually a Flamethrower, but that is such a poor weapon with so little damage.

Some profesions can surely deal better with it, like a Warrior who has a lot of cleave and aoe-CC. But for everyone Stealth can pose a serious barrier to using your abilities.

As much as i like GW2 i can’t say its not a big failure (while it certainly is) & popularity shows it all if it was better than certain game it would have been ahead in viewers (& may be playerbase).

http://www.twitch.tv/directory

now pls tell me where in the list is WoW & where is GW2 ?

The kitten that has to do with thieves dude? stay on topic or go back to wow hahaha

Sasajoe.1509:

As much as i like GW2 i can’t say its not a big failure (while it certainly is) & popularity shows it all if it was better than certain game it would have been ahead in viewers (& may be playerbase).

http://www.twitch.tv/directory

now pls tell me where in the list is WoW & where is GW2 ?

What does this have to do with anything? Stream views are irrelevant and WoW’s popularity has nothing to do with this discussion.

On topic: The thing is when a thief goes into stealth you aren’t going to be slinging grenades all over the place or chasing him with bomb kit. You play defensively until he reappears and you have an opening. Sure the window of opportunity is small but with patience you’ll get it.

Think of this.. in WvW a thief will either CnD you, or other creatures to stealth. If you’re fighting a D/D thief, the first thing you should do is kill alllll of the ambient creatures/animals/whatever is around that the thief can attack. If there are a lot, and you tag too many non-ambient creatures and get them low and you get downed by the thief, now you have a bunch of rally-bots that can get you back up. You probably shouldn’t fight a thief in a camp with guards though since you can’t kill friendly guards and if it’s an enemy camp the guards will hit you too hard for this to be feasible.

Lately I see more D/P thieves in sPvP though but this applies to both sPvP and WvW. If using D/P remember, when you see black powder go down the next thing coming is Heartseeker. Pay attention to the direction the thief is facing. Heartseeker is a 600 range leap. If you practice you could probably get used to knowing where the thief will land at the end of the leap and anticipate it. If you have ground target skills thats where you want to put them unless you can begin a channel on the thief before the heartseeker ends and applies stealth. If you do this the channel will continue to hit while the thief is stealthed.

well sorry i should have quoted some random guy from earier above but my point actually was

that stealth while the biggest of issues is not the single problem with this game & its incompetent developers… how can blizzard make so much better AI & Skills (even plain logic & common sense dicate) & Anet cannot ???

Sasajoe.1509:

well sorry i should have quoted some random guy from earier above but my point actually was

that stealth while the biggest of issues is not the single problem with this game & its incompetent developers… how can blizzard make so much better AI & Skills (even plain logic & common sense dicate) & Anet cannot ???

It’s not a problem with the development, it’s a problem with the players. I can’t even begin to say how much entitlement people who play this game think they have.

“Refund me this/Nerf that so killing them is easier/Change this so I don’t have to meet these requirements to get this.” It’s getting old, expecially when people give advice and no matter how much you give nothing ever changes.

As a thief I have issues with a couple of particular builds on a couple other classes that I find very difficult to beat while they seemingly mow through groups of enemies, and sure I complain to my friends and on Teamspeak but I don’t go on those forums all day and ask for nerfs. I either don’t fight them, or when I do I expect to lose until I learn how to fight them better. I know I’m nowhere near the most skilled of thief players and I accept that.

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

If you practice you could probably get used to knowing where the thief will land at the end of the leap and anticipate it. If you have ground target skills thats where you want to put them unless you can begin a channel on the thief before the heartseeker ends and applies stealth. If you do this the channel will continue to hit while the thief is stealthed.

The thing is, you have to waste an AoE to get rid of the blind first, and after that the thief could be anywhere so good luck with that.

Rengaru.4730:

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

If you practice you could probably get used to knowing where the thief will land at the end of the leap and anticipate it. If you have ground target skills thats where you want to put them unless you can begin a channel on the thief before the heartseeker ends and applies stealth. If you do this the channel will continue to hit while the thief is stealthed.

The thing is, you have to waste an AoE to get rid of the blind first, and after that the thief could be anywhere so good luck with that.

“Working as intended. Thieves are suppose to be the elusive profession. Otherwise, they’d be Warriors in medium armor. Read the description.

PS: I have personally killed thieves EZ because I L2P"

Back-pedal with me guys!

Stealth is not overpowered. There needs to be a sticky somewhere to stop these posts, its pointless and if it was really broken, we’d know by now.

attrail.8613:

Idkkkkk man. Stealth is pretty weak in pvp already

Except when a Thief uses Last Refuge and gets up to 20 seconds of stealth, swaps to a shortbow and just spams bombs and poison which doesn’t unstealth them.

Yeah, pretty weak man.

Anomaly.7612:

attrail.8613:

Idkkkkk man. Stealth is pretty weak in pvp already

Except when a Thief uses Last Refuge and gets up to 20 seconds of stealth, swaps to a shortbow and just spams bombs and poison which doesn’t unstealth them.

Yeah, pretty weak man.

What game are you playing? Because in Guild Wars 2, Last Refuge is a 4 second stealth and gets “used” when an abusing thief brings their own health down to 25%, which usually ends up killing the thief from reveal. Also in that same game, cluster bombs unstealth the thief.

Nah, I think he’s talking about SB #4, maybe it killed him ….

Even if it were a supposed 20 seconds thats 20 seconds of not decapping or backcapping anything. Waste of time