Guild Wars 2

If you take into consideration the condition meta and the drastic differences in health tiers (think its 11k/15k/18k), is there a point to toughness? Vitality works against raw dps and conditions, while toughness only works on raw dps. Sure eating a 7-9k backstab or eviscerate is nasty but being melted in seconds from DoT is far less avoidable. The huge differences in health tiers makes certain amulet choices in pvp useless, and the inability to pick jewels anymore (so much for build diversity….) furthers that statement while some people don’t even need a certain stat because they got so much of it naturally.

To open diversity and give some cushion space for 1v2+ (a.k.a zerging or “focus fire”);

1. Change the health tiers a bit to be more narrow. Instead of ~11k/15k/18k change to ~13k/16k/18k. Smaller range means more stat choices. Doesn’t necessarily mean easier build’s, because the health tier is still very much present (5k difference as opposed to 7k) but those in lower tiers have some room to relocate stats elsewhere instead of worrying how fast they might melt.

2. Add secondary attribute to armor where every 100 points = 1% less stun duration. Reason I say armor is heavy armor professions should stand stronger than the rest, but atleast those who get a large sum of toughness will have some measurable counter to more than just raw dps. Also with no current DR on stun locking toughness would be a nice option for those who can’t get stability but want some means to counter it. If vitality works against raw dps and conditions, I see no reason in not giving toughness dual functions.

3. Return the jewels to pvp. I can’t recall anyone being against them, and adding 3(?) new amulets didn’t suddenly make builds simpler to choose. Giving us 1 amulet + 1 jewel was a sweet spot for anyone who was “missing something” and should return imho. There is no reason to make pvp easier to get into for new people by limiting build choice.

First off, there isn’t a condition meta. There never really was.

Second, the point to Toughness is that it reduces the incoming direct damage rather significantly, meaning your health goes farther and your healing is more effective. Optimal survivability is 1 armor/10 health, and conveniently, that’s what a single point of Toughness and Vitality give respectively. Necromancers skew this ratio a bit because of Death Shroud, but for everyone else it holds true.

I agree, there was never a condition meta. It always makes me laugh how one or two people make panic post on a subject, then everyone else just reads it, absorbs it, then regurgitates it back in other post and threads. Which is precisely where misnomers like this come from.

Having said that, yes, there is a very solid point to taking toughness. Every single skill in the game that applies a damaging condition, also applies some direct damage. Basically every damage skill of either type has a level of direct damage to ti, that toughness negates. Various professions have traits, utilities, and weapons skills that you balance in to deal with conditions.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Optimal survivability is 1 armor/10 health, and conveniently, that’s what a single point of Toughness and Vitality give respectively.

what a misleading oversimplification

insanemaniac.2456:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Optimal survivability is 1 armor/10 health, and conveniently, that’s what a single point of Toughness and Vitality give respectively.

what a misleading oversimplification

Once you reach a certain amount of vitality class dependent

insanemaniac.2456:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Optimal survivability is 1 armor/10 health, and conveniently, that’s what a single point of Toughness and Vitality give respectively.

what a misleading oversimplification

No, it’s mathmatecially provable. Highest EHP is when your health is 10 times your armor in this game. There is no misleading there.

Now, highest EHP does not automatically mean most survivable, however. Other factors such as healing, dodges, blocking, and cleansing come into play, but those are gear-independant. All other things being equal, 10 health/point of armor is indeed the most survivable.

However, you do need to not think “armor=toughness” and “health=vitality”. Toughness gives armor. It does not equal it. Same thing with vitality and health.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

However, you do need to not think “armor=toughness” and “health=vitality”. Toughness gives armor. It does not equal it. Same thing with vitality and health.

How does that apply to anything? The point is stat choice, and toughness buffs hps and defense against raw dps, it does nothing against conditions however. Vitality on the other hand handles both. Unless said class has efficient condition removal toughness becomes nearly obsolete.

The statement of condition attacks carrying direct damage is also true for the opposite. Even without condition damage some DD attacks can pull a nasty DoT, in which toughness does not soften.

A good way to express this is take a low health tier profession and decide between knights or barbarian amulet. Same power, same prec, but 1 works as a universal defense. I’d wish there was some other benefit to toughness because low tier professions have to invest into vitality some shape or form otherwise they melt from anything.

NinjaEd.3946:

The point is stat choice, and toughness buffs hps and defense against raw dps, it does nothing against conditions however. Vitality on the other hand handles both. Unless said class has efficient condition removal toughness becomes nearly obsolete.

While toughness may not protect from condition damage, neither does vitality, character health pool determines how much time you have to counteract damage, it does nothing against conditions (or direct damage) but buy you some extra time. Choosing vitality over toughness will require you to heal more, but at a later time. Whichever is ‘better’ depends on the situation, the longer you stay in combat, the more you benefit from toughness.

Drarnor is if you look in his signature a necromancer and they have around 1800 armour and 18K health basic stats. EHP is HP*armor so to maximize your increase of EHP you want to take the increase that has the highest statincrease/stat. Since HP is 10 times higher in base the HP increase has to be 10 times higher then the armor increase. So for the necromancer to maximize EHP you have to take 10 HP/armor (which is refelected in the toughness vitality conversion rates).

Now necromancer is the class with highest base health and lowest armor, so every point of armor values (relatively) more then any other class. So all classes have more use with vitality in EHP then toughness. Vitality looks like the better stat since it increase EHP and works on every damge unlike toughness.

The problem is that EHP doesn’t account healing. Healing can be looked at as an direct increase in HP (it’s a bit more complex but it will suffice) the formula thus becomes (HP +healing)*armorso the values will shift more in favor in toughness back for power damage. As an example a warrior has to heal for 2,5K HP and toughness is the better stats regarding power damage and for a engineer 4,4K.

so to summerize vitality is better against:
-condition users
-burst builds (since you will heal for very little you healing will be less inportant, so if you want to protect against instagib take vitality)
-when you play a very low healing build and you are a low HP class.

Toughness on the other hand is better :
- against any non bursty power builds (you heal more since the fight takes longer)
- when you have a lot of active defense (you will heal more since you survive longer)
- when you have a lot of healing.
- when you have a lot of cleanses.

frans.8092:

NinjaEd.3946:

The point is stat choice, and toughness buffs hps and defense against raw dps, it does nothing against conditions however. Vitality on the other hand handles both. Unless said class has efficient condition removal toughness becomes nearly obsolete.

While toughness may not protect from condition damage, neither does vitality, character health pool determines how much time you have to counteract damage, it does nothing against conditions (or direct damage) but buy you some extra time. Choosing vitality over toughness will require you to heal more, but at a later time. Whichever is ‘better’ depends on the situation, the longer you stay in combat, the more you benefit from toughness.

Thats the point I’m trying to make, vitality gives you time regardless of the incoming damage source. If class A has a ton of condition removal and high hps then yeah, toughness wins but toughness doesn’t have any real affect against high power builds until you invest a lot into it. You still lose a large chunk of health which means you hit lower health thresholds quickly which is bad for people with effects against enemies below x% health.

You need fairly high toughness to do anything against high power builds, you don’t need a whole lot of extra vitality to make an impression.

What condition meta? You mean the one out of five players on a team that might use conds? It’s a power meta.

Toughness / condi cleanse is best.

Your HP will be harder to drain and smaller heals help you more.

Toughness should include some Condi resistance…

Littlefeather.8623:

Toughness should include some Condi resistance…

Then Knight’s gear becomes THE best set in the game because nothing would counter high toughness.

No.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Littlefeather.8623:

Toughness should include some Condi resistance…

Then Knight’s gear becomes THE best set in the game because nothing would counter high toughness.

No.

Well my friend, some classes have very low health pools. While those classes have condi removals, they do not have enough condi removal for the frequency of condi application. Condi resistance in Toughness stat would let me play my power build with low HP and some condi removal without dropping from ranged condi’s in less than 8 seconds. But you must be on the other side of the fence…

Littlefeather.8623:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Littlefeather.8623:

Toughness should include some Condi resistance…

Then Knight’s gear becomes THE best set in the game because nothing would counter high toughness.

No.

Well my friend, some classes have very low health pools. While those classes have condi removals, they do not have enough condi removal for the frequency of condi application. Condi resistance in Toughness stat would let me play my power build with low HP and some condi removal without dropping from ranged condi’s in less than 8 seconds. But you must be on the other side of the fence…

As a player who regularly plays all 8 professions (although I admit I favor my engineer), I have to disagree. There is not an issue with condition removal availability to any of the professions in the lowest health pool.

Your problem is you simply refuse to build for it. Now your here lobbying for changes to the game that suit your build to remove its weakness. That is just the thing though, you should and will have a solid weakness in any build in this game. If not, then you need to lobby for a change, because it is over powered.

Littlefeather.8623:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Littlefeather.8623:

Toughness should include some Condi resistance…

Then Knight’s gear becomes THE best set in the game because nothing would counter high toughness.

No.

Well my friend, some classes have very low health pools. While those classes have condi removals, they do not have enough condi removal for the frequency of condi application. Condi resistance in Toughness stat would let me play my power build with low HP and some condi removal without dropping from ranged condi’s in less than 8 seconds. But you must be on the other side of the fence…

This is what we have been saying from the start people want to run their build and want the game to change to suit their build. That is being selfish at least you admitted it.

Also my elementalist would be pretty powerful if toughness added condition resistance. Don’t forget cavalier gear also, and I have good cleanses now.

What is never going to happen is cleansing that matches application this is a pipe dream.

oZii.2864:

cleansing that matches application this is a pipe dream.

Yes, yes it is.

As it should be. Expecting to come anywhere near the ability to cleanse the conditions applied. That would be about as reasonable as as expecting blocks or invulnerability to keep up with direct damage skills that can be applied.

I wouldn’t expect or even want toughness to deal with conditions in any way. All that would do is flip the tables on stat relevance and solve nothing. However I dont see much of a balance when vitality has dual applications and toughness has only 1. There are 3 types of attacks ,cc reduction being the only practical choice both for balance and theme to add onto toughness.

Condition removal is its own issue with some people being forced into certain traits/skills to deal with them and others having an abundance of it. Ill admit I did point a finger at conditions but thats not the entirety of this topic.