Guild Wars 2

1) Reduces Mesmer Team Support

This change will also adversely affect all mesmer specs that rely on clones. Many times I need to interrupt a resurrect or stomp, so I will dodge into an opponent and Daze (Shatter 3). If I have 3 clones out currently, I will not be able to do this. This is bad.

2) Reduces Mesmer Survivability

Additionally, if I have a thief backstabbing me, I will be unable to dodge+Daze if I already have 3 clones out. Again, this is bad. Someone who doesn’t play a mesmer may not realize how significant this is, but it’s common for a mesmer to be some distance from his clones. A single Blink can put a mesmer 1200m from his clones.

3) Does not help Phantasm builds

Phantasm builds (which by the way do not put out enough damage in the current state of the game) do not benefit from this change because they won’t use this trait.

4) Discourages Build Diversity

Mesmers right now have no build diversity in the meta, still playing a Shatter spec. Clone-death builds are the only bunker build available to Mesmers at the moment, and it sacrifices nearly all of its team support in exchange. This change will effectively nullify that build. If you feel clone-death builds are too powerful, don’t have the effects proc when clones are replaced, only when actually killed.

I don’t play mesmer, but anything that discourages shatter mesmer play and encourages condi-mesmer is bad. I don’t want another condi-meta.

Given the amount of qq over pu cond mesmers, nullifying the build may in fact be the intent.

The side-effects to that change have very bad effects on mesmers overall including shatter specs. It makes all builds less effective.

Like I said, if clone-death builds are the problem, simply change the mechanics so the on-death effects don’t proc on clone replacement. Much better solution and doesn’t have all the negative side-effects.

The real reason why PU condition mesmers are so powerful in WvW is really due to Prismatic Understanding. It’s just taken the players several months to get used to it.

Joseph.7213:

I don’t play mesmer, but anything that discourages shatter mesmer play and encourages condi-mesmer is bad. I don’t want another condi-meta.

The proposed Deceptive Evasion change discourages all Mesmer play, including shatter mesmer.

oh well maybe after they nerfed all the duelist stuff to the ground we can finally get stuff for wvw. large scale fights require less duelist and more aoe for mesmer. i vote for hexes!

Thedenofsin.7340:

1) Reduces Mesmer Team Support:
Phantasm builds (which by the way do not put out enough damage in the current state of the game)

In comparison to what?

icewyrm.5038:

Thedenofsin.7340:

1) Reduces Mesmer Team Support:
Phantasm builds (which by the way do not put out enough damage in the current state of the game)

In comparison to what?

It’s a parenthetical comment – not going to derail the thread.

dylan.5409:

Given the amount of qq over pu cond mesmers, nullifying the build may in fact be the intent.

lame nerf…..those mesmers (pure condi PU) are too niche to worry about. Solo wvw roamers, nothing more. if they increase the scpeter auto attack speed (like they should), it may not even matter much for pure condi specs,

personally, as a hybrid PU mes, i don’t care as much….rather have my phantasms stay up….still odd.

Agree, it is a lame nerf. Survivability of pu cond remains unchanged, while the already negligible burst of the build gets kicked in the sack

The deceptive evasion change is a big nerf for every build.

• Currently against some professions you are going to dodge backwards to create a clone between you and your opponent, so that the clone can soak the damage. Not that you can do the whole dodging back, against certain profession you have to use this, otherwise you’ll just die. Now that will no longer be possible.

• Another example is the terrain unevenness. F.e. I get attacked outside of the clocktower, dodge, then go into the clocktower, and now can not use one of my clones, because he is outside (or stuck on a different position). Now even if I dodge multiple times inside the clocktower, my first shatter will only contain a very very low number of useful clones. It could be possible, that the whole shatter is wastes, because the clones are stuck somewhere.

Yes, Deceptive Evasion is a strong trait, but this change goes in the wrong directions.
If you have a problem with the combination of ‘Deceptive Evasion’ ‘and ’Debilitating Dissipation’ then reduce the amount of Bleeding and Vulnerability stacks to one or remove the possibility, that overwriting an existing clone with a new clone will not result in the clone-death effects.

If you have a problem with the amount of clones generated through ‘Deceptive Evasion’ try to thing about a five seconds cool down, or address the amount of energy generated for the Mesmer through vigor or the sigil of energy.

1) Not the best idea to disrupt many mesmer builds to get at a single build. Why not change that build more directly?

2) My real disfavor of this change comes when you consider they are simultaneously changing vigor on crit to half up time of critical infusion. Since the trend is to stop dodging, why not start there and see if it’s still a problem? Mesmers get hit across the board with this. Deceptive evasion is tied to endurance and having less endurace means having fewer clones and fewer “on death” effects already. If the claim is that the dual sigils give better access to energy, this is a pretty lame excuse considering mesmers were already running dual energy anyway.

SO, I get that the developers want to reduce the on-clone-death functionality and re-balance the risk/reward for that build. I have no qualms with that.

However, to address an issue you should identify the root-cause and tackle that. The problem with the proposed “solution” is that clone generation through dodges is not the root cause. What needs to be looked at potentially are:

- That clones apply conditions when they get overridden, rather than killed.
- That some on-clone-death traits are perhaps too strong or synergise too well

Now, Mesmers need sufficient clone generation because their Shatters are reliant on it. If you limit this too much, you basically start cutting into one of the key elements of our mechanic (i.e. shatters) and thus disproportionally impact on our effectiveness. Let’s look at the builds that a Mesmer can utilise:

- PU condition: actively tries not to user Shatters, except defensively
- Phantasm: opportunistically but very infrequently uses Shatters
- Mantra: uses most Shatters on a fairly frequent basis
- Lockdown: uses F1, F3 and F4 on a very frequent basis.
- Shatter: is heaviliy reliant on all Shatters, except perhaps F2

By addressing DE (rather than on-clone-death traits or condis on clone-override) you basically negatively impact on all our builds, except the one that you’re trying to target. And it not only impacts our Shatters, it impacts our game-play in general as others have already described (e.g. defensively popping a clone when a thief unstealths, etc).

What is worse, you’ll end up moving us from one “cheese” and passive build (i.e. PU Condi) into another (i.e. Phantasm), whilst the builds that rely heavily on Shatters, timing, disrupts, immobilise and understanding your opponents suffer most.

On the point of vigour… I get that you are trying to reduce the number of dodges in-game, but this needs to be done on a class-by-class basis rather than as a blanket-approach. Lighter classes such as the Mesmer inherently need more mobility and evasion compared to, say, a Warrior.

As such, I’d strongly argue you to reconsider this change.

Feels really good to see Mesmers getting the kit refinement treatment. (Not as bad – i guess mesmers got lucky)

gets popcorn for all the qq

Anet simply has no idea about balancing.

Best example:

“Oh Mesmer players dont like scepter cause the auto attack is bad. So lets buff #2 and #3!”

…

A-net apparently does not understand how this will affect many Mesmer builds.
If Mesmer had been on top of the food chain maybe I would have understood. But we are not. We are just above Elementalist in terms of organized tpvp.

There are not many teams running Mesmers and that is for a good reason.
A thief is basically better.
A thief will rip a shatter Mesmer apart.
A Mesmer is vulnerable to both physical and condition damage.
A Mesmer needs a lot of babysitting from its team.

Now where are the changes that address those issues?