Guild Wars 2

Make all Stealth Attacks (Backstab, Tactical Strike, Sneak Attack, etc) cost 2 initiative.
If the attack hits, the thief will take back 2 initiative.
If the attack does not hit due to block, immunity, dodge, blind etc no initiative is returned.

This change will promote skillful play from thieves (not spam 111 for 4 seconds until it hits), it will bring the D/P closer to balance vs D/D, and will also reward the thief’s opponents for dodging or blocking the right time (this is a huge one).

This comes from a thief player. I hope this change will be enough to stop all this “thief is OP” meta, and will make fighting a thief more fair for defensive classes and also more enjoyable.

i am also a thief player and i think that this solution is fair and directly answers to those people complaining about staying in stealth after blocking etc. pp.

BUT i know that your proposal will not satisfy everybody, because there are still people who can’t deal with stealth and cry about a fix implemented class mechanic from anet.

edit:
btw. 2 ini are much. achieving the intended target 1 ini for stealth attacks is enough adding that the use of a stealth attack costs 1 ini (not only due to block, immunity, blind).

The only fix for thieves at this point would be a rework of the whole stealth system.

I don’t play a thief and this isn’t fair at all

Azukas.1426:

I don’t play a thief and this isn’t fair at all

It is fair. If I miss with Fire Grab on my Elementalist it goes on a long cooldown. On my thief if I get AoE blinded or the target dodges a backstab, I can try again with no penalty for my action.

Even though, I would just prefer to unstealth thieves when the stealth attack gets blocked, I like this idea.
Another advantage is, that if it gets implemented, you can easily adjust it. Like increasing or decreasing the initiative costs.

This sounds fair to me but plz stop the suggestion on unstealth on block it is lame,
in spvp a good guard vs a good thief the thief would be unstealthed for like 8 times until he can hit him with backstab. the problem is that block/blind is too eazy to use and the duration longer then stealth , this would surely destroy all backstab based builds…
but i guess that is what you want.

Barock.7183:

This sounds fair to me but plz stop the suggestion on unstealth on block it is lame,
in spvp a good guard vs a good thief the thief would be unstealthed for like 8 times until he can hit him with backstab. the problem is that block/blind is too eazy to use and the duration longer then stealth , this would surely destroy all backstab based builds…
but i guess that is what you want.

How does it destroy the backstab builds? If a block or blind is longer in duration than the stealth, the thief will not hit anyway.
What I propose will reward the good thief, who will not try to hit when he is blinded or when he sees that his opponent is blocking.
The bad thief who will not notice these things should be punished.

Kanenas.4906:

How does it destroy the backstab builds? If a block or blind is longer in duration than the stealth, the thief will not hit anyway.
What I propose will reward the good thief, who will not try to hit when he is blinded or when he sees that his opponent is blocking.
The bad thief who will not notice these things should be punished.

Both bad and good thieves will be punished in this case.
No matter which of them enters stealth an 8 seconds aegis is an 8 seconds aegis and both have to strike it to remove it.

Not striking the aegis and instead sitting in stealth waiting to remove the aegis and restealth will lower overall pressure to get through all sustain of the opponent, especially if the opponent has access to several blinds, aegis and blocks it would make it nearly impossible for the thief to ever land a backstab. If however the thief removes the block or blind using backstab he will be revealed and the opponent will after taking 0% damage enter a very aggressive manner and cause devastating dmg to the thief who only sits on his auto attacks, 10.8k base hp, below 2k base armor, 2 dodges, no notable hard-CC, no protection and no aegis.

As it is now, landing a successful backstab on for instance a good PU mesmer or Guardian is already hard, and even if you do they have the sustain to deal with them.
Same goes for necromancer and engineer, both don’t have good access to blocks, but however they have many other nifty counters to getting stabbed in the back.

On a side-note.

Ghost I understand what you say. With the change I propose the thief will have to burn 2 initiative to bring down the 8 sec Aegis or to remove the blind, and can backstub afterwards.

Do not you thing that the opponent who used a skill to blind the thief, or burned a skill to get Aegis or to block should get a reward for his action also?

I think there’s a little missunderstanding, I suppose Ghost was critizising the idea of blocks etc. removing stealth.

In this case, I totally agree with him.

I wonder why people think it’s ok for other classes to use auto attack against block/blind/aegis to get it removed vs thieves, who stealth attack BECOMES their auto attack, using it to remove them.

If what you propose goes through, every single class except thieves will have a free way of dealing with block/blind/aegis using their auto attack, whereas thieves will be punished because their auto attack is taken away in stealth. In fact, since auto attacks are usually a lot faster than backstab, I can argue that we are already being penalized in this regard. Is this balance?

Shinjo.6092:

I wonder why people think it’s ok for other classes to use auto attack against block/blind/aegis to get it removed vs thieves, who stealth attack BECOMES their auto attack, using it to remove them.

If what you propose goes through, every single class except thieves will have a free way of dealing with block/blind/aegis using their auto attack, whereas thieves will be punished because their auto attack is taken away in stealth. In fact, since auto attacks are usually a lot faster than backstab, I can argue that we are already being penalized in this regard. Is this balance?

You can’t just call backstab/surprise shot/… an auto attack since if we did that we would have to nerf backstab/surprise shot/… to the lvl of an auto attack which is ridicously low for the effort to create stealth.

People, still crying about thieves? The only way to get people to stop crying is to remove stealth and make thief useless. Once again, the QQ is real.

If I remember right, doesn’t caltrops and choking gas set off the block on Aegis?

Tim.6450:

Shinjo.6092:

I wonder why people think it’s ok for other classes to use auto attack against block/blind/aegis to get it removed vs thieves, who stealth attack BECOMES their auto attack, using it to remove them.

If what you propose goes through, every single class except thieves will have a free way of dealing with block/blind/aegis using their auto attack, whereas thieves will be punished because their auto attack is taken away in stealth. In fact, since auto attacks are usually a lot faster than backstab, I can argue that we are already being penalized in this regard. Is this balance?

You can’t just call backstab/surprise shot/… an auto attack since if we did that we would have to nerf backstab/surprise shot/… to the lvl of an auto attack which is ridicously low for the effort to create stealth.

I’m not saying they are equivalent. I’m saying that it would be unfair for every other classes to be able to deal freely against block/blind/aegis EXCEPT a thief in stealth because they lose their auto attack.

Also, did you see the previous poster’s screenshot? Backstab only hurts a lot given all the right conditions. Otherwise, you end up hitting for 750 like he did, just like an auto attack. I’ve been hit with 1.5k-3k autos from axe/shield wars before.

Edit: Also, keep in mind that when you are blocking/aegis/blind, you are taking ZERO damage anyways from that one attack, whether it was an auto attack or a stealth attack makes no difference. How is this any different from a war using autos to remove the blindd/block/aegis then using eviscerate?

Kanenas.4906:

Make all Stealth Attacks (Backstab, Tactical Strike, Sneak Attack, etc) cost 2 initiative.
If the attack hits, the thief will take back 2 initiative.
If the attack does not hit due to block, immunity, dodge, blind etc no initiative is returned.

This change will promote skillful play from thieves (not spam 111 for 4 seconds until it hits), it will bring the D/P closer to balance vs D/D, and will also reward the thief’s opponents for dodging or blocking the right time (this is a huge one).

This comes from a thief player. I hope this change will be enough to stop all this “thief is OP” meta, and will make fighting a thief more fair for defensive classes and also more enjoyable.

that’s worse than the current thief initiative mechanics.

what thieves really need (yes, all professions need work because they are terrible)…
-attacks on cool down like everyone else.
-better base hp.
-opening attack and long cool down emergency escape only stealth mechanics. so no stealth while actively in combat.
-burst toned down (applies to all profession attacks that have ridiculous damage numbers).

this is coming from a thief and someone who played a much faster paced game where everyone in pvp had access to abilities like stealth, invisibility and an invulnerability state called phase.

Swagger.1459:

Kanenas.4906:

Make all Stealth Attacks (Backstab, Tactical Strike, Sneak Attack, etc) cost 2 initiative.
If the attack hits, the thief will take back 2 initiative.
If the attack does not hit due to block, immunity, dodge, blind etc no initiative is returned.

This change will promote skillful play from thieves (not spam 111 for 4 seconds until it hits), it will bring the D/P closer to balance vs D/D, and will also reward the thief’s opponents for dodging or blocking the right time (this is a huge one).

This comes from a thief player. I hope this change will be enough to stop all this “thief is OP” meta, and will make fighting a thief more fair for defensive classes and also more enjoyable.

that’s worse than the current thief initiative mechanics.

what thieves really need (yes, all professions need work because they are terrible)…
-attacks on cool down like everyone else.
-better base hp.
-opening attack and long cool down emergency escape only stealth mechanics. so no stealth while actively in combat.
-burst toned down (applies to all profession attacks that have ridiculous damage numbers).

this is coming from a thief and someone who played a much faster paced game where everyone in pvp had access to abilities like stealth, invisibility and an invulnerability state called phase.

This pretty much, backstab needs to become “make it count, son” ability where you can’t just mindlessly spam it. Backstab in its current state is, I dare say worse than Spirit ranger’s shortbow 11111111 spam.

This is all good until you factor in aegis. Never again able to backstab a player with a guardian in party? Check.

Kadin.2356:

This is all good until you factor in aegis. Never again able to backstab a player with a guardian in party? Check.

Just how often can a Guardian share Aegis though?

Alternatively, Anet can make Backstab only deal max damage when actually hitting the target from behind. As of now, hitting your target from the sides deals full backstab damage.

Kadin.2356:

This is all good until you factor in aegis. Never again able to backstab a player with a guardian in party? Check.

Unless you happen to be willing to spend two initiative, which is still pretty darn good for the amount of damage backstab does, and it’s a fair sight better than aegis being completely ignored.

How about realizing that any competent player can curb stomp a thief and a change is unnecessary. The only ones in danger are the glass damage dealers. Rock meet paper.

Kadin.2356:

How about realizing that any competent player can curb stomp a thief and a change is unnecessary. The only ones in danger are the glass damage dealers. Rock meet paper.

This type of unbridled arrogance is another reason most players hate our class.

Sanduskel.1850:

Kadin.2356:

How about realizing that any competent player can curb stomp a thief and a change is unnecessary. The only ones in danger are the glass damage dealers. Rock meet paper.

This type of unbridled arrogance is another reason most players hate our class.

Oh, the irony.

I don’t think this change would achieve much given how fast Initiative replenishes.

Dee Jay.2460:

I don’t think this change would achieve much given how fast Initiative replenishes.

This! They need to make stealth a more limited mechanic. Been guaranteed the first hit in the fight alone, is a huge advantage. The proposed change with the initiative just won’t cut it. Either let BS drop stealth even if it’s dodged/blocked etc. or they can go for the whole initiative refund deal on dmg but the initiative cost needs to be increased so that it actually penalizes the thief if he fails to hit.

Edit: The initiative system when considering intiative, skill cost, initiative recovery needs to flat out come close to the cooldowns of the other classes. Easiest way to look at it is 10 actions every 20 secs from say a Guardian (excluding auto attacks) has to translate into 10 actions from the thief for the same time period. Does that make sense?

For the damage backstab does, it’s ridiculously easy to get off.

Fine showing your backstab for 750, i’ll show you backstabs on my supposedly tanky ele for 10k.

Considering the backstab arc is 180 it’s just so little punishment if you miss.

Stealth should break on attack. Considering how easy it is to restealth why is it an issue?

Also any competent thief can beat any class. See how easy it is to turn around that statement?

Arlette.9684:

Dee Jay.2460:

I don’t think this change would achieve much given how fast Initiative replenishes.

This! They need to make stealth a more limited mechanic. Been guaranteed the first hit in the fight alone, is a huge advantage. The proposed change with the initiative just won’t cut it. Either let BS drop stealth even if it’s dodged/blocked etc. or they can go for the whole initiative refund deal on dmg but the initiative cost needs to be increased so that it actually penalizes the thief if he fails to hit.

You know I’ve always felt that having Stealth drain Initiative made way more sense in this game than what we have now. Force Thieves to chose between offense and defense and not get both in one.

You want to stealth? Sure, go ahead, remove conditions, blind, heal etc. But your ability to dish out damage will be severely kitten for the next few moments.

Want to apply serious pressure? Go ahead, but beware you won’t be able to stealth for a few moments thereafter.

phaeris.7604:

For the damage backstab does, it’s ridiculously easy to get off.

Fine showing your backstab for 750, i’ll show you backstabs on my supposedly tanky ele for 10k.

Considering the backstab arc is 180 it’s just so little punishment if you miss.

Stealth should break on attack. Considering how easy it is to restealth why is it an issue?

Also any competent thief can beat any class. See how easy it is to turn around that statement?

Because it’s not always easy? Cnd takes half your init pool and can be blocked/dodged/blind/etc. I’ve never played d/p but bp+hs combo takes even more init. And even after that, it’s not enough. You have to get in melee range behind the person within 4 seconds to land a hit. Ever tried to get behind a war/guardian who’s spinning around in circles? Or an ele who’s zipping back and forth? Or an engineer who’s dropping bombs behind everywhere he goes? All of a sudden that backstab isn’t so easy to land anymore.

Dee Jay.2460:

Arlette.9684:

Dee Jay.2460:

I don’t think this change would achieve much given how fast Initiative replenishes.

This! They need to make stealth a more limited mechanic. Been guaranteed the first hit in the fight alone, is a huge advantage. The proposed change with the initiative just won’t cut it. Either let BS drop stealth even if it’s dodged/blocked etc. or they can go for the whole initiative refund deal on dmg but the initiative cost needs to be increased so that it actually penalizes the thief if he fails to hit.

You know I’ve always felt that having Stealth drain Initiative made way more sense in this game than what we have now. Force Thieves to chose between offense and defense and not get both in one.

You want to stealth? Sure, go ahead, remove conditions, blind, heal etc. But your ability to dish out damage will be severely kitten for the next few moments.

Want to apply serious pressure? Go ahead, but beware you won’t be able to stealth for a few moments thereafter.

Isn’t this exactly how stealth is implemented right now? You can use stealth defensively but you won’t be able to attack since it’ll take you out of stealth, and you lose all the defensive goodies. You want to attack? Sure. But now you are revealed and won’t be able to stealth for the next few moments.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Kadin.2356:

This is all good until you factor in aegis. Never again able to backstab a player with a guardian in party? Check.

Unless you happen to be willing to spend two initiative, which is still pretty darn good for the amount of damage backstab does, and it’s a fair sight better than aegis being completely ignored.

As I said above, I don’t understand why people think it’s fair for every other class to be able to use auto attack to remove aegis and blind, but not backstab. You are still taking 0 damage for the hit that removed it, from either auto attack or backstab, so it’s no different from a war using auto attack first then evis or some other big move after.

Edit: keep in mind that thieves have their auto attack turned into stealth attack when going into stealth.

Shinjo.6092:

phaeris.7604:

For the damage backstab does, it’s ridiculously easy to get off.

Fine showing your backstab for 750, i’ll show you backstabs on my supposedly tanky ele for 10k.

Considering the backstab arc is 180 it’s just so little punishment if you miss.

Stealth should break on attack. Considering how easy it is to restealth why is it an issue?

Also any competent thief can beat any class. See how easy it is to turn around that statement?

Because it’s not always easy? Cnd takes half your init pool and can be blocked/dodged/blind/etc. I’ve never played d/p but bp+hs combo takes even more init. And even after that, it’s not enough. You have to get in melee range behind the person within 4 seconds to land a hit. Ever tried to get behind a war/guardian who’s spinning around in circles? Or an ele who’s zipping back and forth? Or an engineer who’s dropping bombs behind everywhere he goes? All of a sudden that backstab isn’t so easy to land anymore.

What is it with people making this argument all the time? “It takes a lot of initiative”, really?

Imagine any other class getting a skill that said “become invisible for 4 seconds, cure conditions every 3 seconds, heal 300hp/s, if you attack before the duration expires your next attack deals three times the damage. Cooldown: 6 seconds”.

Now, admittedly, CnD actually has to hit. Fine, “Cooldown: 9 seconds” for BP+HS.
If we look at necromancer skills with a cooldown of 9 seconds or less, we get a channeled attack on axe that simply does damage and replenishes some life force and a mark that causes bleeding and regeneration. Do any of these sound even half as good?

Now, I have no idea if thieves are OP or not, what I do know is that a d/p thief is NOT fun to play against. Most of the time when I see a d/p thief I try to ignore them, they chase me, pull out the second they see I’m not an uplvl ranger and can actually put up a fight, go stealth and run away. Then they come back, and the process is repeated a few times until either they screw up or I run out of cooldowns/patience and I screw up. Honestly, this isn’t fun, this isn’t engaging or challenging.

METAShift.2913:

What is it with people making this argument all the time? “It takes a lot of initiative”, really?

Imagine any other class getting a skill that said “become invisible for 4 seconds, cure conditions every 3 seconds, heal 300hp/s, if you attack before the duration expires your next attack deals three times the damage. Cooldown: 6 seconds”.

Now, admittedly, CnD actually has to hit. Fine, “Cooldown: 9 seconds” for BP+HS.
If we look at necromancer skills with a cooldown of 9 seconds or less, we get a channeled attack on axe that simply does damage and replenishes some life force and a mark that causes bleeding and regeneration. Do any of these sound even half as good?

This only applies if you do nothing else after you go stealth. You want to gap close with a heartseeker? You just increased all your cool down by another 3 seconds. You want to cripple someone with a dancing dagger? Another 3 seconds. You want to headshot to stop someone from healing? That’s an additional 4 seconds right there. How about if you want to switch weapons? Sorry, you just blew all your init on your first weapon set. Boy at this rate, you’re never getting a cnd off. Meanwhile, the Necro is going 2-3-4-5 switch 2-3-4-5 without ever having to worry about how 1 move affects the others.

Shinjo.6092:

METAShift.2913:

What is it with people making this argument all the time? “It takes a lot of initiative”, really?

Imagine any other class getting a skill that said “become invisible for 4 seconds, cure conditions every 3 seconds, heal 300hp/s, if you attack before the duration expires your next attack deals three times the damage. Cooldown: 6 seconds”.

Now, admittedly, CnD actually has to hit. Fine, “Cooldown: 9 seconds” for BP+HS.
If we look at necromancer skills with a cooldown of 9 seconds or less, we get a channeled attack on axe that simply does damage and replenishes some life force and a mark that causes bleeding and regeneration. Do any of these sound even half as good?

This only applies if you do nothing else after you go stealth. You want to gap close with a heartseeker? You just increased all your cool down by another 3 seconds. You want to cripple someone with a dancing dagger? Another 3 seconds. You want to headshot to stop someone from healing? That’s an additional 4 seconds right there. How about if you want to switch weapons? Sorry, you just blew all your init on your first weapon set. Boy at this rate, you’re never getting a cnd off. Meanwhile, the Necro is going 2-3-4-5 switch 2-3-4-5 without ever having to worry about how 1 move affects the others.

At this point it’s just a Forum Thief defense mechanism to lament on the hardships of being a Thief all the time.

Hopefully I find your Necro out in the world though, so I can dunk all over that trash can combo you think is good.

Interesting proposal, it is i feel much too easy to land at the moment for the damage output. Look at the big damage from say Ele’s, Churning Earth and Dragon Tooth. Both are telegraphed, with clearly visible animations and effects that have a large induction. And i have never been hit for as much by either of them as i have with backstab. Not even remotely close.

The other big damage attacks, such as kill shot have again, a long induction and animation. Phantasms are noticeable as being vastly different looking to clones or the mesmer, you know that iZerker is going to hurt from a glass mesmer.

Having said that the only thing the thief class has going for it is small group ganking in WvW and solo roaming, suck in PvE, check, not that useful in zergs, check. They are the go to class for solo roamers because that is where they truly shine, you get caught 1v1 vs a good thief and the outcome is usually death. Unless you yourself bring a thief to play.

I must admit it does get kind of annoying tho seeing 80% of the small groups and roamers in WvW being thieves. With the other 20% being a splash of warriors/mesmers.

As a side note chill should hinder initiative regeneration, hell it even puts ele’s attunement swapping on long cool downs. The whole point of chill being to slow down skill use, why do thieves get off when other classes eat it in the face and it bends eles over and kittens them in the anus.

It’s a tough call, frankly.

Regarding people stating that “but you have condi cleanse/heal/regen/stealth all in one!” you must be aware that this requires very high trait investment in Shadow Arts. Thieves build this way in the meta because the power lines in general are not rewarding enough, and thief base HP/defense is too low to really do anything but spec for defense. The difference in stab damage between a 10/30/x/x/x thief and a 30/30/x/x/x thief is negligible. This has more to do with build issues and insufficient damage scaling formula on stab thieves moreso than just stab damage being too high. Some kind of exponential scaling to make the damage ramp as it does now when building closer to 30 power is what needs to be considered, for a 200 power difference in the scheme of things as they stand makes almost no difference at all. Consequently, just nerfing the ratio on stab damage does nothing but only make more thieves move into these cheesier build archetypes which rely more heavily on blind spam/stealth builds. There are many GC non-stealth-heavy thieves out there, and I know as one of them, not entering a fight at the right time literally mean nothing more than losing. Yes, I can kill some people (berserker light armor builds) before they can react sometimes, but if I don’t plan my moves, I will lose. It’s that simple.

The solution is undeniably better than the ones which state to remove stealth upon evade/block. The availability of blinds (especially other thieves) and aegis is astonishing. To simply lose because of class/build matchup and not because of anything you could have done to counterplay it is just rather lame.

That said, this idea is still rather difficult to agree upon. Stab builds are already pretty counterable through skilled play and just knowing the class well (mostly referring to D/D here, D/P is a whole other monster), so adding in extra costs may prove difficult to balance. I like the idea of active counterplay – even as a thief, because I like testing myself – but I don’t necessarily know if it should be something as brutal as blowing resources on already missing your spike opportunity.

I could maybe see a 1 init cost on the sneak skills, otherwise dealing an auto (being unable to attack would just be horrible), but 2 might be a bit overkill.

I would like to say to people that think 2 init is not enough that thieves have many traits that depend on the amount of initiative, like first strikes. (The thief does 10% more damage when his initiative is over 6)

In a case where the thief stealths, loses his first backstab because his opponent dodged it and then successfully lands it, with the change I propose the damage output of the backstab would probably be -10%, because he lost 2 init after his failed first atempt, and when he landed it his initiative was below 6. This is huge.

Also I believe that the people how think that CnD is just a 6 second CD skill they just do not understand how initiative works. If I fail a CnD 2 times in a row it does not mean that I just have to wait 6 sec and retry. It means that I cannot use any skill at BOTH weapon sets, except of auto attack.
It is not like failing to land a big CD skill, but then I have 7 more to burn (or more if ele or engi).
Initiative is like the mana pool used at other games. You can burn all your mana trying to do 1-2 powerful spells, but then to do any other you will have to wait for your mana to regenerate.

That said, maybe the change I propose is better if 1 init is used instead of 2, but this has to be balanced after testing.

WhimsicalPacifist.2943:

Azukas.1426:

I don’t play a thief and this isn’t fair at all

It is fair. If I miss with Fire Grab on my Elementalist it goes on a long cooldown. On my thief if I get AoE blinded or the target dodges a backstab, I can try again with no penalty for my action.

Except you have all of Air Earth and Water skills to use.

I find Ele players are still mad Anet took their God Mode away.

Shinjo.6092:

Dee Jay.2460:

Arlette.9684:

Dee Jay.2460:

I don’t think this change would achieve much given how fast Initiative replenishes.

This! They need to make stealth a more limited mechanic. Been guaranteed the first hit in the fight alone, is a huge advantage. The proposed change with the initiative just won’t cut it. Either let BS drop stealth even if it’s dodged/blocked etc. or they can go for the whole initiative refund deal on dmg but the initiative cost needs to be increased so that it actually penalizes the thief if he fails to hit.

You know I’ve always felt that having Stealth drain Initiative made way more sense in this game than what we have now. Force Thieves to chose between offense and defense and not get both in one.

You want to stealth? Sure, go ahead, remove conditions, blind, heal etc. But your ability to dish out damage will be severely kitten for the next few moments.

Want to apply serious pressure? Go ahead, but beware you won’t be able to stealth for a few moments thereafter.

Isn’t this exactly how stealth is implemented right now? You can use stealth defensively but you won’t be able to attack since it’ll take you out of stealth, and you lose all the defensive goodies. You want to attack? Sure. But now you are revealed and won’t be able to stealth for the next few moments.

No, generally you want to stealth as much as possible since the stealth-attacks are also the most powerful.

P/D builds are the best example where anything aside from Sneak Attack does pitiful damage.

Currently stealth has both offensive and defensive benefits and Thieves aren’t forced to chose on over the other.

I don’t think any build in this game should be centered around one-hit burst damage from an invisible state on a cooldown only limited by the Thief’s ability to go back into stealth (which isn’t just Initiative spending on Weapons, if we’re being honest for once). And I don’t know what all this talk about the woes of D/D is, because I seem to almost exclusively see D/P when I roam around. And I don’t blame them. If I do see D/D, the animation on CnD while moving is almost nonexistant, and they tend to couple it with a Steal, which also has no telegraph. And Backstab has no telegraph (counting to 2 or 3 and dodging isn’t a “telegraph”, it’s an attempt at reading your opponent based on the current situation, used mostly to counter instacast abilities/predict combos).

Why do Thieves need to have a high damage attack from an invisible state? Why can’t the game develop for Thieves such that Stealth is a utility and not part of a damage rotation, giving Thieves more while visible.

Maybe there’s never a good solution because the foundational design is flawed.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Maybe there’s never a good solution because the foundational design is flawed.

^ This. They really need to spend some time re-working the class.

Buff the survivability, buff the group utility, whatever… but thief stealth is currently the worst iteration of stealth that I’ve experienced in any MMO I’ve played. Of course, poorly skilled stealth spam thieves will defend this mechanikittenil they are blue in the face.

Agreed, Avigrus, on the worst iteration piece. Also:

Avigrus.2871:

mechanikittenil

Stared at it for a second, then started laughing in my living room. I never would have seen the obscenity in that combination of words without the forum’s assistance. Good stuff.

Dee Jay.2460:

Shinjo.6092:

Dee Jay.2460:

Arlette.9684:

Dee Jay.2460:

I don’t think this change would achieve much given how fast Initiative replenishes.

This! They need to make stealth a more limited mechanic. Been guaranteed the first hit in the fight alone, is a huge advantage. The proposed change with the initiative just won’t cut it. Either let BS drop stealth even if it’s dodged/blocked etc. or they can go for the whole initiative refund deal on dmg but the initiative cost needs to be increased so that it actually penalizes the thief if he fails to hit.

You know I’ve always felt that having Stealth drain Initiative made way more sense in this game than what we have now. Force Thieves to chose between offense and defense and not get both in one.

You want to stealth? Sure, go ahead, remove conditions, blind, heal etc. But your ability to dish out damage will be severely kitten for the next few moments.

Want to apply serious pressure? Go ahead, but beware you won’t be able to stealth for a few moments thereafter.

Isn’t this exactly how stealth is implemented right now? You can use stealth defensively but you won’t be able to attack since it’ll take you out of stealth, and you lose all the defensive goodies. You want to attack? Sure. But now you are revealed and won’t be able to stealth for the next few moments.

No, generally you want to stealth as much as possible since the stealth-attacks are also the most powerful.

P/D builds are the best example where anything aside from Sneak Attack does pitiful damage.

Currently stealth has both offensive and defensive benefits and Thieves aren’t forced to chose on over the other.

I don’t even thief but even I know that the P/D 3 skill hits like a truck in a Power thief set up….heck it’s torment is an insane damage source for the condi set ups too.

Do you even thief because I highly doubt you do making these statements.

No disrespect, but that’s right there is a dead give away

Avigrus.2871:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Maybe there’s never a good solution because the foundational design is flawed.

^ This. They really need to spend some time re-working the class.

Buff the survivability, buff the group utility, whatever… but thief stealth is currently the worst iteration of stealth that I’ve experienced in any MMO I’ve played. Of course, poorly skilled stealth spam thieves will defend this mechanikittenil they are blue in the face.

good posts y’all!

professions are full of fundamental design flaws, and I get the feeling that anet will compound those problems as opposed to fixing or reworking things.

Azukas.1426:

Dee Jay.2460:

Shinjo.6092:

Dee Jay.2460:

Arlette.9684:

Dee Jay.2460:

I don’t think this change would achieve much given how fast Initiative replenishes.

This! They need to make stealth a more limited mechanic. Been guaranteed the first hit in the fight alone, is a huge advantage. The proposed change with the initiative just won’t cut it. Either let BS drop stealth even if it’s dodged/blocked etc. or they can go for the whole initiative refund deal on dmg but the initiative cost needs to be increased so that it actually penalizes the thief if he fails to hit.

You know I’ve always felt that having Stealth drain Initiative made way more sense in this game than what we have now. Force Thieves to chose between offense and defense and not get both in one.

You want to stealth? Sure, go ahead, remove conditions, blind, heal etc. But your ability to dish out damage will be severely kitten for the next few moments.

Want to apply serious pressure? Go ahead, but beware you won’t be able to stealth for a few moments thereafter.

Isn’t this exactly how stealth is implemented right now? You can use stealth defensively but you won’t be able to attack since it’ll take you out of stealth, and you lose all the defensive goodies. You want to attack? Sure. But now you are revealed and won’t be able to stealth for the next few moments.

No, generally you want to stealth as much as possible since the stealth-attacks are also the most powerful.

P/D builds are the best example where anything aside from Sneak Attack does pitiful damage.

Currently stealth has both offensive and defensive benefits and Thieves aren’t forced to chose on over the other.

I don’t even thief but even I know that the P/D 3 skill hits like a truck in a Power thief set up….heck it’s torment is an insane damage source for the condi set ups too.

Do you even thief because I highly doubt you do making these statements.

No disrespect, but that’s right there is a dead give away

I was going to say, Sneak Attack is arguably one of the weaker skills in P/D, actually, on par with Dancing Dagger. I know I am personally able to apply brief immobilize, 5-10 stacks of vuln, two 1.0 scaling longrange attacks (effectively a backstab) and 10 stacks of torment to people on my P/D thief in less than three seconds excluding the 5 bleed off Sneak Attack. If that’s not crazy, I don’t know what is.