Guild Wars 2

these are obviously not in spvp for a reason. so why do we still see them period?

they only work in pvp, but yet are too broken to be balanced, hence their purposeful absence from spvp.
condition builds are all but nonexistent in pve, so they have absolutely zero place there.

so why are they still around if all they do is create problems for wvw balance?

If they remove perplexity runes, the mass exodus of neck beards from the game would be too great to recoups from. AMIRITE?!!!

There is a conspiracy in gw2 against only you, we all know how much you hate them.

NeXeD.3042:

There is a conspiracy in gw2 against only you, we all know how much you hate them.

thanks man great post

I’m pretty sure it’s for the same reason that Skyhammer still exists.

Because without perplex runes, condition necro’s would be kinda crap.

Runes for every boon and condition ,encourages proper interrupts,kind of counter spamming(you spam in conquest) , allows for a condition not available or widely available to some classes,they don’t delete stuff that is impossible will it magically dissapear from my armor with no compensation??

Encourages dodges,cleansing,farming,diversity… but meh the blindness outbreak is permanent.

Because wvw. Players killed others without weapon skills. It was totaly broken. :/

sinject.4607:

so why are they still around if all they do is create problems for wvw balance?

Because they don’t. As far as I am concerned, they were not even a problem prenerf.

How do they imbalance WvW? Conditions have a very limited value due to group/AoE cleansing. So at worst, they may effect very specific roaming encounters. How does that imbalance WvW?

I assume you’re talking WvW?
Conditions are nigh-useless in WvW. Unlike sPvP where frequently people rely on their own condition cleansing, WvW allows to freely stack group cleansing together, allowing for very rapid and very reliable removal of any condition.

You can only use them against skirmishers, but then, what’s the point? You’re not going to make a large difference that way and any Warr/Engi able to utilize them well is needed on the frontline.

And if you roam, as always, you should instead start playing to win, not playing to lose. Roaming is equivalent to intentionally losing as someone else can just bring superior numbers, kill you, and there’s nothing you can do about it. Doesn’t matter how classes, runes, skills or sigils are balanced, if you play roaming you shouldn’t care. That’s not what decides your fights.

Carighan.6758:

I assume you’re talking WvW?
Conditions are nigh-useless in WvW. Unlike sPvP where frequently people rely on their own condition cleansing, WvW allows to freely stack group cleansing together, allowing for very rapid and very reliable removal of any condition.

You can only use them against skirmishers, but then, what’s the point? You’re not going to make a large difference that way and any Warr/Engi able to utilize them well is needed on the frontline.

And if you roam, as always, you should instead start playing to win, not playing to lose. Roaming is equivalent to intentionally losing as someone else can just bring superior numbers, kill you, and there’s nothing you can do about it. Doesn’t matter how classes, runes, skills or sigils are balanced, if you play roaming you shouldn’t care. That’s not what decides your fights.

This is a typical moot argument. You are right that conditions aren’t very effective in a typical zerg fight, but the rest of your message is misinformation.

I play on EU tier 1 server and solo roam a lot and do a lot of other small scale. It matters a LOT even during the busy prime time. In fact sometimes all the objectives we held on the map are solo capped by me. Outside the prime time, the objectives are often undefended or defended only by very small group, then the small scale matters even more.

Adding more and more imbalance just makes the competitive players want to leave WvWvW. A really good player doesn’t get much any pleasure winning the fight knowing she had an advantage because of the build or imbalanced circumstances. I know solo roaming is often 1 vs many, but adding brain dead runes to the games will not encourage more people to solo roam, but does the opposite. I pledge for more diversity instead of pushing everybody to be a zergling or troll using the latest gimmick build in roaming. Developers, please listen to the core WvWvW players, reduce the amount of imbalance there is in WvWvW and shake the WvWvW meta.

Several sigils and runes need to be toned down. This list includes Strength, Hoelbrak, Pack and Perplexity runes. And sigils of battle, air, fire, doom and energy. Yes, I know they are probably the most used sigils in the game and they should also be toned down for pvp.

So, your pressumin to claim to speak for every players mentality and perspective? You have no clue what kind of or how much satisfaction a player gets from winning a fight. You really should stop claiming you can speak for anyone else, much less everyone else. Particularly when your using it as a tool to portray the runes as an advantage over all others. Every rune has an advantage of one kind or another. I do not feel the same runes are a particularly strong advantage at all. Much less strong enough to create a thread to complain about them specifically.

Koroshi made a few vids where he tried the perplexity runes and explained why they are so incredibly broken.

But the same condition lovers always hijack these threads saying how small scale WvW is not important and there should be no balance to this part of the game. Apparently, those who claim that others try to make arguments by saying they represent a wider group of people, represent a wider group of people themselves on the basis of which they know that small scale roaming is done by so few that it should not deserve balance.

/end sarcasm

I would actually go further then this and estimate that small scale WvW is done more frequently then large scale. Especially by those who favor WvW over the other game modes.

The ‘get imbalanced or die’ attitude is pathetic.

Deniara Devious.3948:

A really good player doesn’t get much any pleasure winning the fight knowing she had an advantage because of the build or imbalanced circumstances.

Eh…
We play a class-based MMO*RPG*. I don’t know exactly when you started playing these, but picking your class in a RPG is usually all about picking your strengths and your weaknesses.

That’s the whole point. It’s what makes RPGs force you to play as a team. Play an Elementalist in Earthdawn, you’re really good in a fight but your spells have such a long wind-up you need a team to give you space (and shorter fights will be over before you even started, yes). In return, you bring wide-area spells and lots of support like changing weather, immunizing to cold/heat, healing, etc.

That’s entirely normal.
Hell, I’d say a game is broken if you can pick a class and yet despite that, your skill is the only thing which matters. That means the class is 100% meaningless. It very very much should have an effect, and very very much should push you to play together with others to cover up your weaknesses.

If conditions are a problem in solo roaming, there’s a very simple fix to that: Discourage solo even more. It’s already heavily discouraged by the entire combat system (group effects abound, boon sharing, cleansing, combo fields), but maybe not enough. It’s a *MMO*RPG, playing solo should probably be somewhere very very very far down the priority list.
I also highly doubt the majority of players… actually, nevermind that. Going into any WvW zone is immediate proof that the majority of players have 0 interest in playing much of their time solo. Same for PvE, look pre-megaserver where you would often be alone, people avoided maps/areas where they would be.

The reason why looking at solo is so pointless is because actively working towards better solo play is actively working towards making a bad MMORPG. And assuming you still want to make a good game as a developer, not just listen to the vocal minority on your forums, you need to think about how to give incentives for MMO play first, other play-modes second.

And looking at grouped/zerged play, conditions are incredibly weak. Yes I’m aware a total rework would be better (which could also work towards making them weaker in 1v1, but again, that’s last-priority and would just be a beneficial side effect), but in the current context and excluding a total rework, fix the much more frequent scenario first.

Cygnus.6903:

The ‘get imbalanced or die’ attitude is pathetic.

So is blaming rune effects for class-based issues. And? Doesn’t stop anyone from frequently crying about these runes.

Simply claiming folks who disagree, as “condition lovers who hijack a thread” seems a bit over the top to me. It seems down right irrational to me when given the context that the discussion is about a condition based rune. In my opinion, it detracts from ones own argument to label and attack a disagreeing party in thay way. To me it is a sign that you feel facts alone, do not satisfy your perspective.

OP isn’t exactly providing hard arguments either. These runes aren’t in SPvP so obviously they’re broken and should be removed. I guess that should be said for literally every rune that is not found in SPvP. Condition runes not being useful in PvE is an entirely different problem that is caused by conditions themselves and the PvE meta of everyone going berserker. Does that mean berserker is OP because it is used in all game modes to great effect? With runes specifically though, Scholar runes and Strength runes are used in SPvP, WvW and PvE, so they must be much more OP than Perplexity runes because those are useless in PvE and only good in WvW.

It also assumes that just because something is balanced, imbalanced, accepted or unwanted in sPvP, this would apply to the rest of the game.

Which can trivially shown to be a wrongful assumption by considering a siege engine deployable or the halloween consumables.

I’m honestly not sure why they are still here. They honestly are the stupidest runes in the game.

I don’t think people get how ridiculous 5 stacks of confusion every 15 seconds is. It lasts 8 seconds as well. Add the confusion duration that is close to 11 seconds. Foods maybe around 14 seconds. Add any other bonuses maybe around 16 seconds or so. That is 100% potential uptime on 5 stacks of confusion. For 1500 condition damage that is about 900 confusion damage a skill use. And for those that say well don’t spam your skills, well OK. Let me run around with my head cut off trying to clear the 4-5 other conditions on me before I can cleanse confusion, EVERY 15 seconds.

Even the 3 stacks of confusion when hit is just, bad gameplay, especially for a condition this strong. They are just badly designed and brain-dead runes in general.

And those who down play small-scale and solo roaming. What makes this aspect of WvW any less legit than zerg warfare? It can be just as important. While zergs are taking keeps and towers, small-scale groups and solo roamers can take camps, escort dolyaks, mercenary camps, kill dolyaks to cut off supply, etc. All of this is vital, at least moreso the higher tier the server you are on.

WvW is ultimately about PPT, controlling objectives and having the most amount of points at the end of the week. Zerg warfare isn’t any more of a game mode than small-scale and solo roaming. It is just a byproduct of how WvW is in the context of capturing objectives.

With that said, the runes are absolutely broken and bad design, IMO. They just put certain specs over the top.

Kako.1930:

I’m pretty sure it’s for the same reason that Skyhammer still exists.

But what about cape of Capricorn?

:O

killahmayne.9518:

I don’t think people get how ridiculous 5 stacks of confusion every 15 seconds is.

Quoting from http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Perplexity :

(6): +20% Confusion duration; every 15 seconds, cause 5 stacks of Confusion for 8 seconds to your current target.

Oh wait, no, that’s not actually what the rune says. I know, I got confused, too.
Here’s what it actually says:

(6): +20% Confusion duration; when you interrupt a foe, cause 5 stacks of confusion for 8 seconds. (Cooldown: 15s)

Now, maybe you are on a class which can reliably interrupt a target, independent of what they are doing, every 16-17 seconds (if you can do it every 15 seconds, please talk to your programmer, you should not be interfacing with this forum I imagine).
But in that case, is that really the rune’s fault? That your class can freely interrupt enemy players on demand with virtually no limitation upon it?

Carighan.6758:

That’s entirely normal to me.
Hell, I’d say a game is broken if you can pick a class and yet despite that, your skill is the only thing which matters. That means the class is 100% meaningless. It very very much should have an effect, and very very much should push you to play together with others to cover up your weaknesses.

Fixed.

Just because you are used to MMO’s working in a certain way does not mean GW2 should fall into the abyss of dullness with them.

The meaning of MMO is not that you have to team up with other people, but that other people play the same game as you in the same world you do. In fact, why is small scale WvW encouraged by Anet (small objectives, Siege Defense, etc.) if not to account for this part of the game by balancing as well?

I would reverse your statement and say that a game, no better yet, GW2 would be broken if despite skill, a player could defeat another player solely based on which class one chose. GW2 has been trying to break through this stigma since launch.

Now, I am going to contradict myself here by saying that off course, one can also build to counter another build, vastly reducing the amount of skill needed to fight the players you ‘hardcounter’. However, in roaming, one must account for all builds one is likely to encounter. This is where part of the imbalance of the perplexity runes comes from. You can simply equip this and lift your condition spec over the top, being able to best every other roaming spec out there.

Another reason for Perplexity being so stupid is the fact that it is so easy to use. 3 stacks of confusion without lifting a finger, and for the 5 stacks you only need to interrupt, which is ridiculously easy in this game to pull off for pretty much any class.

If one combines this with lots of condition specs already being easy to use, and confusion arguably being the strongest condition ingame (burning might do more damage but has less duration and less panic-effect, and I’m not talking about Fear), Perplexity allows for a serious imbalance.

Super Wilson.7408:

If they remove perplexity runes, the mass exodus of neck beards from the game would be too great to recoups from. AMIRITE?!!!

I love you! <3

perplexity really isn’t that good anymore. it’s a decent choice for some builds in some situations but they are fairly balanced atm.

I’d reckon most popular choices in small scale wvw are strength or hoelbrak right now, I wouldn’t even put perplexity in the top 6 most used/most effective in small scale, let alone larger scale.

They remain in the game to provide an excuse for losing.

One day they will balance for WvW roaming – NOT

Get rid of Perplexity runes and I equip Tormenting/Krait

Few weeks later – Nerf Krait Runes!

When it was brought up when runes changed in the pvp forum there were 1k+ posts against it in under a week. Say what you will about a lack of communication but thats one thing they listened to.

Also because 1v1 wvw balance isnt a thing and has never been.

Well they did change the runes. They’re a fair bit weaker now.

Super Wilson.7408:

If they remove perplexity runes, the mass exodus of neck beards from the game would be too great to recoups from. AMIRITE?!!!

Give this Man an Oscar ASAP.

all these non neckbeards comming on the forum just to complain about a pve/wvw runeset!

There are Perplex runes because there are Strength Runes, Hoelbrak Runes and Melandru Runes etc. etc etc.

Carighan.6758:

killahmayne.9518:

I don’t think people get how ridiculous 5 stacks of confusion every 15 seconds is.

Quoting from http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Perplexity :

(6): +20% Confusion duration; every 15 seconds, cause 5 stacks of Confusion for 8 seconds to your current target.

Oh wait, no, that’s *not actually* what the rune says. I know, I got confused, too.
Here’s what it +actually+ says:

(6): +20% Confusion duration; when you interrupt a foe, cause 5 stacks of confusion for 8 seconds. (Cooldown: 15s)

Now, maybe you are on a class which can reliably interrupt a target, independent of what they are doing, every 16-17 seconds (if you can do it every 15 seconds, please talk to your programmer, you should not be interfacing with this forum I imagine).
But in that case, is that really the +rune’s+ fault? That your class can freely interrupt enemy players on demand with virtually no limitation upon it?

I am well aware that it is on interrupt. The reason why I didn’t mention that is by default many classes (Necro, Warrior, Engi, Thief, Mesmer) can easily have interrupts available every 15 seconds so it is a relative non-issue. Technically Guardians, Rangers and Eles can but I will leave them out because Perplexity is typically never ran on these classes.

I don’t have a problem with classes having that many interrupts at all. It is the rune’s fault because clearly the 15 second cooldown did not account for the fact that many classes have many interrupts that are readily available. So not only are you interrupted, you have a juicy purple aura that ticks for 900-1000 for each skill used unless you can cleanse it every 15 seconds or are content with doing nothing for the duration that the confusion lasts (which, I had demonstrated in my previous post, can reach 100% uptime).

I could be mistaken, but please show me a rune that inflicts 5 stacks of bleed or torment every 15 seconds? Bleeds are a much weaker condition, I don’t think there are any runes like that. Heck, even the complained about Runes of Balthazar aren’t nearly as bad.

At 1500 condition damage the burn is around 700 a tick. The difference is that it is the lasts 3 seconds. The cooldown is 10 seconds but how many heals are a 10 second CD? So realistically the effect is procced every 20 seconds. The base burn amount is 3 seconds. With food, +30% condition duration and runes/sigils the burn can maybe get up to 8 seconds, which is still about half as much as you can get on the Perplexity Interrupt, and arguably a longer practical cooldown and requires you to be in melee range.

If you compare Perplexity with any other rune that procs conditions under certain situations, I don’t think the comparison is even close. The 5 stacks of confusion every 15 seconds is already over the top. The 3 stacks of confusion on hit makes it even more over the top.

Given that, I don’t know how people insist on defending this rune. Oh, well conditions are useless in WvW so that’s my justification for a rune that procs 5 stacks of confusion for 8 seconds base and 3 stacks of confusion for 5 seconds base not being overpowered. If that was a case why not have a rune that procs 20 stacks of confusion every 5 seconds when you are hit? The above statement about conditions in WvW is only half true at most. Then people go on to say, well, ANet doesn’t balance around 1v1 or small-group play because it isn’t a game mode.

Guess what, zerg play isn’t any more of a game mode than 1v1 or small-group skirmishes. Even if ANet comes on this thread and exclaims explicitly that we do not balance around 1v1 or small-group, that still isn’t an excuse for a rune to be imbalanced in somewhat inevitable and commonly occurring situations. Now, it is inevitable that some classes are better than others in small-group/1v1, just like other classes are better in zerg warfare, etc.

However, if you look at the rune objectively, compare it to other runes, and in a practical sense, it is out of place and is in need of a balance. And the fact that it doesn’t require any special sort of skill (then again what runes really do, however to proc confusion is as simple as getting hit and landing any interrupt, which is easier than many runes) to trigger.

Oh, well, maybe I need to contextualize this:
I would have no issues with a substantial nerf to these runes. And I’m talking very substantial, probably 50%-75%.

The thing is though: I want that for all runes. And for virtually all sigils.

This also balances runes and sigils more in this regard. If all runes are only 25% as strong as they are now, their contribution to the character’s overall performance is much lower. More specifically, the difference in absolute amounts of contribution is much lower and as a result has a much much more ignorable effect on total performance.

That’s also partially why I don’t think a specific nerf to these runes is sensible. Runes as a whole are too strong. As that’s a larger change, it should be done first. Further, conditions as a whole are really weak across the board compared to power damage. That’s a very very large change to fix, should be done first.
And then, really, I don’t feel the runes are strong. I’ve played Lockdown in the past, I’ve been up against plenty interrupters, and if you’re lucky you see this proc twice a minute. And even then I bet one of the two times wasn’t a planned occurence. Sure, maybe in some hyper-competitive planned 1v1 scenario where everyone could as well be playing DotA2 for 50k a month, maybe. But I doubt most people play on that level.
And below that, it just doesn’t feel like these contribute. Take Traveler, gain a utility slot, you just improved your WvW performance by more than the runes would. Also better variability.

Lets compare it to Krait Runes which is probably the second best condition rune set

Equal in condition damage bonuses
Both have a proc on hit – 1 bleed for 10s/15s icd vs 3 confusion stacks for 5s/25s icd
This is sort of a wash 3 stacks of confusion is stronger but the ICD is also higher
Krait has 45%! bleed duration while perplexity only has 30%
The #6 bonus of krait runes has NO COUNTERPLAY – it is unblockable 3 different cond
The #6 bonus of perplexity runes is undoubtedly stronger but it is counterable by stability unless facing a thief with sleight of hand

Is Perplexity that much stronger? I say no

Can you nerf perplexity a bit? Sure but if you nerf it too much you’re just going to complain about krait next

In the end Perplexity Runes aren’t breaking the game IMO

Game breaking? No. Very strong? Yes. The rune set very often carries the player, which is bad design, IMO.

Narkodx.1472:

Equal in condition damage bonuses
The #6 bonus of krait runes has NO COUNTERPLAY – it is unblockable 3 different cond
The #6 bonus of perplexity runes is undoubtedly stronger but it is counterable by stability unless facing a thief with sleight of hand

Don’t forget that the 6th bonus on krait depends on using an elite, which is usually a 45 sec cd in the best case scenario (often much longer). The 6th bonus on perplexity can be proc’d much more often, given the many interrupts most classes have.

mango.9267:

Don’t forget that the 6th bonus on krait depends on using an elite, which is usually a 45 sec cd in the best case scenario (often much longer). The 6th bonus on perplexity can be proc’d much more often, given the many interrupts most classes have.

Yes, but still only 3x as often, with plenty downsides. And that’s in ideal circumstances, but we’re assuming those for both effects.

mango.9267:

Game breaking? No. Very strong? Yes. The rune set very often carries the player, which is bad design, IMO.

Narkodx.1472:

Equal in condition damage bonuses
The #6 bonus of krait runes has NO COUNTERPLAY – it is unblockable 3 different cond
The #6 bonus of perplexity runes is undoubtedly stronger but it is counterable by stability unless facing a thief with sleight of hand

Don’t forget that the 6th bonus on krait depends on using an elite, which is usually a 45 sec cd in the best case scenario (often much longer). The 6th bonus on perplexity can be proc’d much more often, given the many interrupts most classes have.

I know how it works – my sb bleed ranger prefers it to Perplexity with her low cd elite skill entangle traited

Perplexity does not “carry players” anymore than any other strong rune set – Power players have plenty of runes that are uncounterable and permanently effective like strength runes or hoelbrek or air/fire sigils etc etc

At least I can pop my zerker stance/stability/condi clear and stop perplexity from being effective

For some reason people just don’t like condis and confusion especially so it makes perplexity somehow special and deserving of more nerfs – it won’t change anything thieves will jump to krait runes and still own the roaming scene

I can’t wait for some people to discover Aristocracy runes.

hybrid.5027:

I can’t wait for some people to discover Aristocracy runes.

Indeed.. those are extremely strong as well

Too bad I can’t bother to do the dungeon

Narkodx.1472:

Indeed.. those are extremely strong as well

Too bad I can’t bother to do the dungeon

You can just buy the dungeon for a price of 1.24~1.74 G/path (2.5~3G for the path but you get 1.26G back).

Super Wilson.7408:

If they remove perplexity runes, the mass exodus of neck beards from the game would be too great to recoups from. AMIRITE?!!!

WILSON!!! <3

Anyway yeah I agree. It’s too late to remove them entirely, so they really should just nerf plex runes into the ground so that nobody will want to use them anymore.

killahmayne.9518:

Carighan.6758:

killahmayne.9518:

I don’t think people get how ridiculous 5 stacks of confusion every 15 seconds is.

Quoting from http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Perplexity :

(6): +20% Confusion duration; every 15 seconds, cause 5 stacks of Confusion for 8 seconds to your current target.

Oh wait, no, that’s not actually what the rune says. I know, I got confused, too.
Here’s what it actually says:

(6): +20% Confusion duration; when you interrupt a foe, cause 5 stacks of confusion for 8 seconds. (Cooldown: 15s)

Now, maybe you are on a class which can reliably interrupt a target, independent of what they are doing, every 16-17 seconds (if you can do it every 15 seconds, please talk to your programmer, you should not be interfacing with this forum I imagine).
But in that case, is that really the rune’s fault? That your class can freely interrupt enemy players on demand with virtually no limitation upon it?

I am well aware that it is on interrupt. The reason why I didn’t mention that is by default many classes (Necro, Warrior, Engi, Thief, Mesmer) can easily have interrupts available every 15 seconds so it is a relative non-issue. Technically Guardians, Rangers and Eles can but I will leave them out because Perplexity is typically never ran on these classes.

I don’t have a problem with classes having that many interrupts at all. It is the rune’s fault because clearly the 15 second cooldown did not account for the fact that many classes have many interrupts that are readily available. So not only are you interrupted, you have a juicy purple aura that ticks for 900-1000 for each skill used unless you can cleanse it every 15 seconds or are content with doing nothing for the duration that the confusion lasts (which, I had demonstrated in my previous post, can reach 100% uptime).

I could be mistaken, but please show me a rune that inflicts 5 stacks of bleed or torment every 15 seconds? Bleeds are a much weaker condition, I don’t think there are any runes like that. Heck, even the complained about Runes of Balthazar aren’t nearly as bad.

At 1500 condition damage the burn is around 700 a tick. The difference is that it is the lasts 3 seconds. The cooldown is 10 seconds but how many heals are a 10 second CD? So realistically the effect is procced every 20 seconds. The base burn amount is 3 seconds. With food, +30% condition duration and runes/sigils the burn can maybe get up to 8 seconds, which is still about half as much as you can get on the Perplexity Interrupt, and arguably a longer practical cooldown and requires you to be in melee range.

If you compare Perplexity with any other rune that procs conditions under certain situations, I don’t think the comparison is even close. The 5 stacks of confusion every 15 seconds is already over the top. The 3 stacks of confusion on hit makes it even more over the top.

Given that, I don’t know how people insist on defending this rune. Oh, well conditions are useless in WvW so that’s my justification for a rune that procs 5 stacks of confusion for 8 seconds base and 3 stacks of confusion for 5 seconds base not being overpowered. If that was a case why not have a rune that procs 20 stacks of confusion every 5 seconds when you are hit? The above statement about conditions in WvW is only half true at most. Then people go on to say, well, ANet doesn’t balance around 1v1 or small-group play because it isn’t a game mode.

Guess what, zerg play isn’t any more of a game mode than 1v1 or small-group skirmishes. Even if ANet comes on this thread and exclaims explicitly that we do not balance around 1v1 or small-group, that still isn’t an excuse for a rune to be imbalanced in somewhat inevitable and commonly occurring situations. Now, it is inevitable that some classes are better than others in small-group/1v1, just like other classes are better in zerg warfare, etc.

However, if you look at the rune objectively, compare it to other runes, and in a practical sense, it is out of place and is in need of a balance. And the fact that it doesn’t require any special sort of skill (then again what runes really do, however to proc confusion is as simple as getting hit and landing any interrupt, which is easier than many runes) to trigger.

Then why did you misrepresent them and disingenuously word your post outside of the true function of the runes?

DoomKnightMax.6592:

Because without perplex runes, condition necro’s would be kinda crap.

considering fear only counted as an interrupt recently, i’d say that’s a bit uneducated.

@OP:

Perplexity runes exist so that bad players can blame that when they die.

The reality is that roaming in WvW is pretty boring. It is just a bunch of condi cheese specs. Boring.

style.6173:

The reality is that roaming in WvW is pretty boring. It is just a bunch of condi cheese specs. Boring.

Pet peeve:
While I agree that it’s terminally boring, not everything which kills you is “cheese”.

Plerplex runes isn’t the go to runes for most small man/havoc squads. They are great for solo roamer but they aren’t the only rune of choice. I have seen and heard lots are running Krait, Balthazar, Strength, Hoelbrak, traveler, Nightmare, Ranger Rune, Ogre, Pack, Mad King, Melandru, and Torment.

sinject.4607:

NeXeD.3042:

There is a conspiracy in gw2 against only you, we all know how much you hate them.

thanks man great post

Thanks man it was almost as great as this whole topic!

Tao.5096:

There are Perplex runes because there are Strength Runes, Hoelbrak Runes and Melandru Runes etc. etc etc.

and yet all of those runes are in sPvP. why is it that perplexity is not?

Necrotize.2974:

OP isn’t exactly providing hard arguments either. These runes aren’t in SPvP so obviously they’re broken and should be removed. I guess that should be said for literally every rune that is not found in SPvP. Condition runes not being useful in PvE is an entirely different problem that is caused by conditions themselves and the PvE meta of everyone going berserker. Does that mean berserker is OP because it is used in all game modes to great effect? With runes specifically though, Scholar runes and Strength runes are used in SPvP, WvW and PvE, so they must be much more OP than Perplexity runes because those are useless in PvE and only good in WvW.

no sorry, that’s not true.

many runes and sigils are not implemented in sPvP because they’re new and we have yet to see their impact on PvP through WvW, meaning anet tests the waters with WvW usually to see if these runes/sigils/stat combos can work and be balanced in a player v. player environment.

that being said, perplexity is a rune set that has been in the game for a long time now, so the usual reason you see gear not available in sPvP just doesn’t apply. in fact, I believe the devs have even publicly rejected the idea of including perplexity runes in sPvP when it was suggested.

the main culprits when it comes to perplexity use are thieves by far, and then engineers and necros. specifically on thief though, perplexity runes straight up break trickery’s balance something ridiculous by making slight of hand also act as bewildering ambush. but that’s not all: if you steal with basilisk venom and use bewildering ambush too, you can immediately apply 10 stacks of confusion. nothing in the game should be able to apply that much of a condition that is so strong within a single button press.

anet has objectively labeled perplexity overpowered by their conscious choice to leave perplexity out of sPvP, and since it has absolutely no use in PvE, there is absolutely no reason for this set to still be in the game in it’s current state.

coglin.1867:

killahmayne.9518:

Carighan.6758:

killahmayne.9518:

I don’t think people get how ridiculous 5 stacks of confusion every 15 seconds is.

Quoting from http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Perplexity :

(6): +20% Confusion duration; every 15 seconds, cause 5 stacks of Confusion for 8 seconds to your current target.

Oh wait, no, that’s *not actually* what the rune says. I know, I got confused, too.
Here’s what it +actually+ says:

(6): +20% Confusion duration; when you interrupt a foe, cause 5 stacks of confusion for 8 seconds. (Cooldown: 15s)

Now, maybe you are on a class which can reliably interrupt a target, independent of what they are doing, every 16-17 seconds (if you can do it every 15 seconds, please talk to your programmer, you should not be interfacing with this forum I imagine).
But in that case, is that really the +rune’s+ fault? That your class can freely interrupt enemy players on demand with virtually no limitation upon it?

I am well aware that it is on interrupt. The reason why I didn’t mention that is by default many classes (Necro, Warrior, Engi, Thief, Mesmer) can easily have interrupts available every 15 seconds so it is a relative non-issue. Technically Guardians, Rangers and Eles can but I will leave them out because Perplexity is typically never ran on these classes.

I don’t have a problem with classes having that many interrupts at all. It is the rune’s fault because clearly the 15 second cooldown did not account for the fact that many classes have many interrupts that are readily available. So not only are you interrupted, you have a juicy purple aura that ticks for 900-1000 for each skill used unless you can cleanse it every 15 seconds or are content with doing nothing for the duration that the confusion lasts (which, I had demonstrated in my previous post, can reach 100% uptime).

I could be mistaken, but please show me a rune that inflicts 5 stacks of bleed or torment every 15 seconds? Bleeds are a much weaker condition, I don’t think there are any runes like that. Heck, even the complained about Runes of Balthazar aren’t nearly as bad.

At 1500 condition damage the burn is around 700 a tick. The difference is that it is the lasts 3 seconds. The cooldown is 10 seconds but how many heals are a 10 second CD? So realistically the effect is procced every 20 seconds. The base burn amount is 3 seconds. With food, +30% condition duration and runes/sigils the burn can maybe get up to 8 seconds, which is still about half as much as you can get on the Perplexity Interrupt, and arguably a longer practical cooldown and requires you to be in melee range.

If you compare Perplexity with any other rune that procs conditions under certain situations, I don’t think the comparison is even close. The 5 stacks of confusion every 15 seconds is already over the top. The 3 stacks of confusion on hit makes it even more over the top.

Given that, I don’t know how people insist on defending this rune. Oh, well conditions are useless in WvW so that’s my justification for a rune that procs 5 stacks of confusion for 8 seconds base and 3 stacks of confusion for 5 seconds base not being overpowered. If that was a case why not have a rune that procs 20 stacks of confusion every 5 seconds when you are hit? The above statement about conditions in WvW is only half true at most. Then people go on to say, well, ANet doesn’t balance around 1v1 or small-group play because it isn’t a game mode.

Guess what, zerg play isn’t any more of a game mode than 1v1 or small-group skirmishes. Even if ANet comes on this thread and exclaims explicitly that we do not balance around 1v1 or small-group, that still isn’t an excuse for a rune to be imbalanced in somewhat inevitable and commonly occurring situations. Now, it is inevitable that some classes are better than others in small-group/1v1, just like other classes are better in zerg warfare, etc.

However, if you look at the rune objectively, compare it to other runes, and in a practical sense, it is out of place and is in need of a balance. And the fact that it doesn’t require any special sort of skill (then again what runes really do, however to proc confusion is as simple as getting hit and landing any interrupt, which is easier than many runes) to trigger.

Then why did you misrepresent them and disingenuously word your post outside of the true function of the runes?

So you quote my whole post and instead of refuting or supporting my post or offering more thoughts to the topic at hand you get sidetracked and accuse me of misrepresenting.

If you can’t understand, there is no point explaining it to you. All I’m saying is the effect is very easy the proc as per the cooldown timer.

sinject.4607:

that being said, perplexity is a rune set that has been in the game for a long time now, so the usual reason you see gear not available in sPvP just doesn’t apply. in fact, I believe the devs have even publicly rejected the idea of including perplexity runes in sPvP when it was suggested.

Wrong. The Devs did want to add Perplexity to PvP. They felt it was balanced for the game mode.

However, the announcement drew tons of hate from players, and they decided against it. Keep in mind that they were to be added in the same patch that all of the runes got revamped, so players made that decision without context or experience.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

sinject.4607:

that being said, perplexity is a rune set that has been in the game for a long time now, so the usual reason you see gear not available in sPvP just doesn’t apply. in fact, I believe the devs have even publicly rejected the idea of including perplexity runes in sPvP when it was suggested.

Wrong. The Devs did want to add Perplexity to PvP. They felt it was balanced for the game mode.

However, the announcement drew tons of hate from players, and they decided against it. Keep in mind that they were to be added in the same patch that all of the runes got revamped, so players made that decision without context or experience.

without context or experience? what about what they did to wvw? or are you one of those people who try to completely separate wvw and pvp as if they’re separate games entirely?

however perplexity’s rejection happened, it happened. the runes are not in spvp and you will not find a single spvp player wishing otherwise.

the dev’s are not infallible, and obviously they themselves recognize this.