Guild Wars 2

1 copper more or less does in no way show if your item is listed too high or not.
It is simply someone else getting in front of you in the waiting line without any effort or realistic loss.

If your item is in the right price range you are going to sell some time, that is right. But sometimes that 1 copper can take your item 2 days more to sell.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Because I’m trying to prove a point.

Fine then, what would you tell someone the price of a TV priced at $199.99 was?

If the price of a TV is $199.99, the price of the TV is $199.99. I’m sorry, but I don’t understand what your point is. Did you mean the price is different because of tax, since that’s not included? The problem with your example then is that taxes are different from State to State.

So you would, in casual conversation, tell someone that the TV you bought cost $199.99. Is that what you are saying?

Imperatora.7654:

if the difference between your price and your price -1c is"nothing" than your price is too high for the item.

If your price was where it should be, then -1c would put it undervalued at which point I’m losing money.

The problem isn’t that people are undercutting you by 1c, the problem is that you are listing items for high enough that they can still undercut you and not lose out. If the utility value of the item is at least as high as your price, then yours WILL sell, and the guy who undercut you will only lose money. If the utility value is NOT at least as high as your price, then your price is too high.

how are supply/demand curves so hard for people to understand… if they intersect your price point, you sell, if they do not, you are overpriced… be it by 1c or 100g, you are still overpriced.

And if the -1c makes you start losing money then that means that at the current price, you are getting nothing for it.
At that point, what’s even the point of selling it?
If that should always be the case then why does the TP exist at all?

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

1 copper more or less does in no way show if your item is listed too high or not.
It is simply someone else getting in front of you in the waiting line without any effort or realistic loss.

If your item is in the right price range you are going to sell some time, that is right. But sometimes that 1 copper can take your item 2 days more to sell.

again… if supply is high enough, and demand low enough such that a 1c undercut makes your auction unsellable, or take 2 days to sell, then the supply/demand curve is not intersecting your price. It’s not “cutting in line” it’s “the line is progressing while you are stubbornly standing still expecting the front of the queue to come to you”

Lower your price if you want a quick sale. How is this hard?

I perfectly got your point, even repeated parts of it.
The thing you do not understand is, relisting costs money, so the ‘stubbornly standing still’ part is not true, because if your price is perfectly fine and will sell some time later, why would you give up money.
I am talking about low volume high price markets.
Say one item sells every 3 days. Even if your price is good, someone else undercuts you with 1copper, so you will have to wait 3 days longer, just because that person gave up on 0.15 copper profit. And that is not good.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Imperatora.7654:

if the difference between your price and your price -1c is"nothing" than your price is too high for the item.

If your price was where it should be, then -1c would put it undervalued at which point I’m losing money.

The problem isn’t that people are undercutting you by 1c, the problem is that you are listing items for high enough that they can still undercut you and not lose out. If the utility value of the item is at least as high as your price, then yours WILL sell, and the guy who undercut you will only lose money. If the utility value is NOT at least as high as your price, then your price is too high.

how are supply/demand curves so hard for people to understand… if they intersect your price point, you sell, if they do not, you are overpriced… be it by 1c or 100g, you are still overpriced.

And if the -1c makes you start losing money then that means that at the current price, you are getting nothing for it.
At that point, what’s even the point of selling it?
If that should always be the case then why does the TP exist at all?

If an item can sell for 1g reliably and quickly, and I list it for 99s 99c. I lost 1c, and you lost nothing. Both our auctions sold, only mine sold undervalued and I paid the price for it. You made more than I did because you knew better what the item was worth.

On the flipside, if you list your auction for 2g, and it can only reliably sell for 1g, and I list mine for 1g99s99c, I may well snipe your sale because I know what it’s worth and have more accurately priced my item. Both may never sell because the next guy may come in at 1g99s98c before mine has even moved (supply/demand no longer intersecting our price points). That backlog won’t start to clear until the price reaches 1g. We risked our listing fees to post above price in the hopes of catching a sucker, some days it pays off, others not, hence risk

Please stop arguing in a manner that sounds like the 1 copper is about profit in dimensions of 1g, because it is not.
It is merely a mechanic of selling first without any realistic loss.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

I perfectly got your point, even repeated parts of it.
The thing you do not understand is, relisting costs money, so the ‘stubbornly standing still’ part is not true, because if your price is perfectly fine and will sell some time later, why would you give up money.
I am talking about low volume high price markets.
Say one item sells every 3 days. Even if your price is good, someone else undercuts you with 1copper, so you will have to wait 3 days longer, just because that person gave up on 0.15 copper profit. And that is not good.

Wrong, it’s perfectly good. High price, low volume only shows this situation in even more stark contrast. In your example, both auctions sold, only you made more money than the other guy because you knew that people were still going to pay your price. Supply/demand intersected at your price. The guy who undercut you, sold quicker, but left money on the table. He/She paid for that quicker sale, a sale they would still have got had they not undercut you.

The key thing to remember is that BOTH auctions sold, only yours sold for more money.

If getting funds quickly was your goal, well, you need to pay for that with a lower price.

My goal is neither, I am simply trying to show something that should not be the way it works right now in my opinion.

Talking of losing or winning money when the price dimensions is in the golds, but the cut is 1 copper, is nonsense.

Why is this topic still going… Author of has already been proven wrong, both with common sense and mathematics. Whats more to discuss here?

Talking of losing or winning money when the price dimensions is in the golds, but the cut is 1 copper, is nonsense.

Its nonsense because you re thinking about those items as if they were commodities. They are not. Everything on tp behaves not like a product but like a financial instrument, devoid of any real cost beyond intial purchase prace and 15% fee. No arbitrary barrier, which i ve already previously proven to be silly and inadequate, will change that.

Try something for me…. for the next moth, for every single item you list, put 1c in your bank, see how “nonsense” it becomes… When I sell a 250 stack of ore, 1c adds up in a hurry.

Paying for faster sales, or higher volume is a key point in supply/demand economics, especially in near infinite long term supply, finite long term demand systems such as what we have in GW2.

If getting a faster sale is NOT your goal, then undercutting by 1c is irreverent to you. If your price is accurate, and I’m assuming it is (because if it isn’t, then undercutting by 1c doesn’t matter), then your auction will still sell. Yes, it will take longer, but it will still sell. That it sells today, or next week is not important to you (as you said, a fast sale is not your goal). I fail to see how other people paying to get sales quicker, because it IS their goal, affects your goals in any way.

If their paying to sell faster IS affecting your goals, then you may want to add “fast sale” to that list, and price accordingly.

Imperatora.7654:

Try something for me…. for the next moth, for every single item you list, put 1c in your bank, see how “nonsense” it becomes… When I sell a 250 stack of ore, 1c adds up in a hurry.

Paying for faster sales, or higher volume is a key point in supply/demand economics, especially in near infinite long term supply, finite long term demand systems such as what we have in GW2.

If getting a faster sale is NOT your goal, then undercutting by 1c is irreverent to you. If your price is accurate, and I’m assuming it is (because if it isn’t, then undercutting by 1c doesn’t matter), then your auction will still sell. Yes, it will take longer, but it will still sell. That it sells today, or next week is not important to you (as you said, a fast sale is not your goal). I fail to see how other people paying to get sales quicker, because it IS their goal, affects your goals in any way.

If their paying to sell faster IS affecting your goals, then you may want to add “fast sale” to that list, and price accordingly.

And again, I am talking about low volume high price markets.

My goal is neither. Even if you are still going to sell, you should not have to wait for days, just because someone else decided to sell 1c below.

Why is this topic still going… Author of has already been proven wrong, both with common sense and mathematics. Whats more to discuss here?

He has? You’ll have to show me where, as I’ve seen very few posts even addressing his main point.

Yes, 1c less is still 1c less. When was the last time you even looked at the copper field in your money pane?

Similarly, 1 HP is still 1 HP. How many times have you survived an attack by 1 HP? You probably haven’t in this game, at least not at level 80, because when you already have 17,000 of something, 1 becomes nearly insignificant.

Yes, if you have something listed at 10g, I can “undercut” you at 9g,99s,99c. Yes, mine will sell first. As far as I’m concerned, I just made 10g; as far as the buyer’s concerned, he just spent 10g. The one copper difference doesn’t matter a wit to me or to him. So, as far as the buyer and seller are concerned, the price was 10g.

So, why didn’t he buy yours instead? After all, the prices are essentially the same. I really doubt he pondered long and hard over whether that 1c was the breaking point. . .

The fact is, I just cut in line ahead of you. In what’s supposed to be a “first in, first out” system, I just listed something after you at essentially the same price and sold it before you. How is that fair?

And before you respond with “Well, yours was better priced,” or “When supply and demand intersect. . .” No. Just no. The buyer just paid 10g. I just made 10g. Yes, technically it was only 9.9999g, but we can all stop pretending that that 1c actually made any difference at all as to whether the sale happened or not. The only thing that it changed was who got the money, so clearly 10g is the going price.

So, again, how is it fair to the first seller that people can take his place in line?

The fact is, I just cut in line ahead of you.

See this is the problem. You didnt cut in line. There is no line (unless we are talking same offering price, but we are not). You offered to sell something, just like me, and the buyer picked what he liked best. Seeing as there are no other criteria beyond the once that i already mentioned in previous post, for the buyer the deciding quality will be sell price, so he WILL pick cheaper every single time.

And regarding your example of 9.99.99 to 10g. I could draw the same line at 100g and 1g, 1000g and 10g, and 10000000000g and 100000g. So as far as your example is concerned that 10g is pretty much worthless. Which it is to some people. So far the line has been drawn at 1c, so 1c is worth something to someone. Nobody cares if it isnt worth anything to you.

He has? You’ll have to show me where, as I’ve seen very few posts even addressing his main point.

Then you should read this thread again.

Except that 1c is not worth anything to anyone playing this game

And you do not pick what you liked best in this game, you do not have a choice but to buy from lowest seller.

If this game gave you the option to buy from whatever price you want, and you actually saw the sellers name, I would not complain at all about this mechanic

And regarding your example of 9.99.99 to 10g. I could draw the same line at 100g and 1g, 1000g and 10g, and 10000000000g and 100000g. So as far as your example is concerned that 10g is pretty much worthless. Which it is to some people. So far the line has been drawn at 1c, so 1c is worth something to someone. Nobody cares if it isnt worth anything to you.

Well, thank you for reiterating my point. One copper out of 10g is insignificant, same as 1g out of 10,000g is insignificant.

See this is the problem. You didnt cut in line. There is no line (unless we are talking same offering price, but we are not).

Yes, there is. Had I kept the price at 10g even, you would have sold first, because you got there first. For all intents and purposes (except semantics), 9.9999g is the same, yet I sold first. Why?

You offered to sell something, just like me, and the buyer picked what he liked best.

But we’re selling at essentially the same price!

Look, if the asking price were 10c, then a 1c undercut would be significant, and the item involved would probably be something moving in bulk, where that 1c gets to add up over a stack of items. But for a single, high-value, item, there’s essentially no difference—to the buyer or the seller—between 10g and 9.9999g, or between 10,000g and 10,001g. The scale eclipses what difference there is.

. . .for the buyer the deciding quality will be sell price, so he WILL pick cheaper every single time.

Except in this case, the buyer decided that 10g is a good sell price. No one at the prices under discussion seriously sees a difference in 1c. Yes, we all logically know that there is a difference, and we would all take the 9.9999g over the 10g. Not one of us, though, would look at a 10g price and say “Nope, that’s not worth a cent over 9g99s99c!”

So, the customer already decided that your 10g price was fair. The 9g99s99c price is essentially the same price, yet I get to sell first. Why?

Rogacz.9865:

Why is this topic still going… Author of has already been proven wrong, both with common sense and mathematics. Whats more to discuss here?

^ This

People don’t understand that 1 copper less than the current price is still less. They keep wondering why I can cut in line, but they can’t grasp the simple fact that I offered my product for less. I think all the anger is based on the idea that the complainers think “10 gold” and “9 gold 99 silver 99 copper” is the same thing (yet they are completely different numbers).

So explain to me, how the difference of 1 copper affects you as a buyer? Do you think, ‘Wow, that item for 9 gold 99 silver 99 copper is really cheap, luckily that listing came up, would never have bought for 10 gold 0 silver 0 copper’, like seriously?

I believe we’ve reached a stalemate. We’ve been going in circled, trying to explain to people the differences in price, but no one seems to be understanding each other. Price undercutting is a valid tactic in a competitive market.

With that said, I think we should consider locking this thread.

They keep wondering why I can cut in line, but they can’t grasp the simple fact that I offered my product for less. I think all the anger is based on the idea that the complainers think “10 gold” and “9 gold 99 silver 99 copper” is the same thing (yet they are completely different numbers).

Just because they are, semantically, different, doesn’t mean that there’s any practical difference. To the buyer and the seller, they’re the same thing.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I believe we’ve reached a stalemate. We’ve been going in circled, trying to explain to people the differences in price, but no one seems to be understanding each other. Price undercutting is a valid tactic in a competitive market.

With that said, I think we should consider locking this thread.

Yes, undercutting is a valid tactic. No one here has an actual problem with undercutting.
The problem lies in undercutting so utterly insignificant that no one, not the buyer, the seller, or the person that was undercut, cares even the slightest bit about the price difference. Except that the undercutter gets to go first.
Which is a LIFO system.

And as described before, it is NOT comparable to a real life market, because a lot of factors that do exist in a real environment just do not in this game, which leads to a LIFO system and not real competition.

it makes no difference at all, which means I would equally buy either yours at 10g or the other guy’s at 9s99c and BOTH AUCTIONS WILL SELL. How is this hard, both of you sold, you made more money, you “won”, you “beat him at TP pvp”, you are the better trader. LIFO, FIFO, no difference since both sell.

And we are both talking about high value, low volume items. Again, so we are clear, both auctions sold, only the higher one took longer but made more money. For people like you, who have no “must sell it now” goal, this selling faster thing a 100% non-issue, all that matters is that it DOES sell (and, as we have established for this example, it does). For you, a 1c undercutter means nothing. I totally fail to see why you think this is important to you if selling quickly isn’t a goal for you. I’m kinda curious how selling slower is suck a concern for you when selling quickly isn’t a concern by your own admission.

For people who DO highly value fast sales, (IE: not you), a 1c undercutter can be a serious issue if they price badly. This requires them to price very accurately, especially for high value, low volume items. They need to know the supply/demand curves far, far better than you would as they need to make sure that they sell fast (to allow them to use that gold elsewhere) without leaving too much money on the table. This is the exact same thing that happens when players decide between making a sell order or filling a buy order. Get the gold now, or get more gold later.

Fast sellers often need to undervalue the sell orders so that it moves quickly, and enough that few other players will undercut them, but not so much that they lose profit. The lower the supply, the more reward there is for selling low (as odds are good that demand will be high enough that someone will buy your item before another one is supplied).

The key here is hitting the intersection between the positive demand curve and the negative supply curve (short term). Pricing too high, especially on high value, low volume items, will result in a very, VERY long wait for a sale (basically until inflation raises the effective price to your value). This has an opportunity cost as you can’t spend the gold on other market ventures until your item sells. Likewise, underpricing will cause your item to be nearly instantly scooped up due to the high demand and you lose out on the difference between the price you listed at and the intersection point.

It’s a LIFO system when the price you sell your product for is less than the current price.

It’s also a FIFO system when other sellers decide to sell their products for more than what you’re currently selling for.

anyone else notice how this is only focusing on sell orders and not a peep on buy orders?

I’ve been overcut by 1c on my buy orders FAR more than my sell orders.

The things you state are facts and I would and could not disagree, but in my opinion you should not sell slower, even when you listed first.

Since you do not agree with it, I will not ask you to, I just wanted to post how I feel about it.

Edit: Well, because you can not relist your sellings for free. If you put a minimal % of the previous price, that you will have to cut to, those overcuttings would not be as extreme aswell, because people would think about overcutting, instead of just offering 1c (as in no change in value) higher.

It’s a LIFO system when the price you sell your product for is less than the current price.

But. . .a 1c undercut is essentially the same price.

Double-post, since I’m not seeing an option to edit my post. . .

anyone else notice how this is only focusing on sell orders and not a peep on buy orders?

I think that’s because adjusting your buy orders doesn’t incur the 5% tax that it would take to combat undercutters. But, yes, being out-bid and having to wait is also annoying. :p

Iures.2894:

It’s a LIFO system when the price you sell your product for is less than the current price.

But. . .a 1c undercut is essentially the same price.

then you should have listed yours lower in the first place. If supply is higher than demand at your price, you won’t sell…. if demand is higher than supply, then both will sell and you will make more money. (and if demand = supply, you make the MOST money)

It all comes down to which side of the supply/demand intersection you are on.

If a tree in the woods is undercut by 1 copper, and no one around will pay the price regardless, does it still make a sound?

oh man, can I quote that?

Imperatora.7654:

Iures.2894:

It’s a LIFO system when the price you sell your product for is less than the current price.

But. . .a 1c undercut is essentially the same price.

then you should have listed yours lower in the first place. If supply is higher than demand at your price, you won’t sell…. if demand is higher than supply, then both will sell and you will make more money. (and if demand = supply, you make the MOST money)

It all comes down to which side of the supply/demand intersection you are on.

So I should have listed 2c lower to get the jump on the guy who listed after me.
Wait no, he’d just go another 1c below that, because he does not CARE about the pittance of a price difference that is 1c.

sigh

no, you should have listed it low enough to sell BEFORE they listed. Be that 1c or 100g.

If supply > demand at your price, more items will enter below you than are bought up, so you will not sell. You priced too high, sucks to be you.

If supply < demand at your price, you sell very quickly, but you could have asked a higher price, thus you lost out. You priced too low, sucks to be you, but sucks less as you can use that gold in other markets to offset that loss.

If supply = demand at your price, you still sell, not too quickly but at the maximum amount. You got top coin for your item. You priced exactly right, thumbs up.

You don’t seem to understand people at all Imperatora.
The absolute only thing that would prevent someone from 1c undercutting would be posting it for 1c more than the highest buy order (or just selling it to that buy order).
No matter what else you price it at, people will always be willing to go that tiny little bit less to go first.
Because they do. not. kittening. CARE. about 1c.

then you should have listed yours lower in the first place. If supply is higher than demand at your price, you won’t sell…. if demand is higher than supply, then both will sell and you will make more money. (and if demand = supply, you make the MOST money)

It all comes down to which side of the supply/demand intersection you are on.

How low do I have to price it to stop people from undercutting by 1c? If you can actually show me a way to determine reliably at what point the 1c undercutting stops, I’ll start listening to your supply vs. demand rhetoric. Because right now, the debate isn’t “Guys undercutting me by 1c are keeping me from selling things.” It’s “These guys are selling at basically the same price I set, only they’re selling before me despite listing after me.”

My guess is that the 1c undercutting stops at right around either the buy price, or the buy-it-to-resell-it price. Please correct me if I’m wrong, though.

I can tell you exactly the price

the price it sells at before supply lets someone else post below you.

That is of course assuming that “selling it fast” is a primary goal. Maybe you need the gold to exploit another market, maybe you need it to buy an underpriced precursor, not for me to say.

If selling it right away is NOT a primary goal (you want to maximize profit for example), then the correct price is exactly at the intersection of supply and demand. It will take longer, as people will undercut you to sell quicker (see above), but they are leaving money on the table that you are willing to spend time to pick up.

Ultimately there is only two outcomes: Your auction sells, or it does not. If it does not that means the price is too high and all the undercutters in the world won’t change that fact. Demand at your price is too low given short term supply. You have no one to blame but yourself.

If your auction DOES sell, then all the undercutters in the world won’t change that fact. They may make it take longer, but you are making more money for that longer time than they are.

I think a little Econ 101 may be in order, this may be stuff you already know, but is good for the kids at home

Supply curves (usually a straight line actually) are negative. That means they slope down to the right. As supply goes up, price goes down. Demand curvers are the opposite, they slope up to the right… as demand goes up, so does price. Where they intersect is the point of highest profit.

Pricing below that point means that demand is higher than supply at that price. The item in question will very likely be snapped up quick, however the seller “left money on the table”, meaning that they could have sold the item for more money. The difference between what you sold it at, and what you could have sold it at is lost.

Pricing above that point means that supply is higher than demand. This is a worse case as it means that more items will enter the market than leaving it. While you “might” sell at this price point, there is a LOT of risk that someone will undercut you and leave you priced above the point at which the product begins to sell. If there is a large number of items entering below you, and quickly enough, you may never sell. The payoff for this risk is that if you get a buyer who is not very wise, who comes in between the point where you list your item and before the point where the next person lists theirs, you can get a far higher price.

So ultimately it depends on your goal: Do you want to sell fast to use that gold for other ventures? or are you ok with waiting for the item to move at a price you see as more accurate? or are you willing to risk over-pricing your item in the hopes of getting a higher value but knowing that you could have to relist and lose your 5%?

If your goal is to ensure no one undercuts you, you will have to list it quite undervalued to ensure a fast sale.

Imperatora.7654:

I can tell you exactly the price

the price it sells at before supply lets someone else post below you.

That is of course assuming that “selling it fast” is a primary goal. Maybe you need the gold to exploit another market, maybe you need it to buy an underpriced precursor, not for me to say.

If selling it right away is NOT a primary goal (you want to maximize profit for example), then the correct price is exactly at the intersection of supply and demand. It will take longer, as people will undercut you to sell quicker (see above), but they are leaving money on the table that you are willing to spend time to pick up.

Ultimately there is only two outcomes: Your auction sells, or it does not. If it does not that means the price is too high and all the undercutters in the world won’t change that fact. Demand at your price is too low given short term supply. You have no one to blame but yourself.

If your auction DOES sell, then all the undercutters in the world won’t change that fact. They may make it take longer, but you are making more money for that longer time than they are.

I think a little Econ 101 may be in order, this may be stuff you already know, but is good for the kids at home

Supply curves (usually a straight line actually) are negative. That means they slope down to the right. As supply goes up, price goes down. Demand curvers are the opposite, they slope up to the right… as demand goes up, so does price. Where they intersect is the point of highest profit.

Pricing below that point means that demand is higher than supply at that price. The item in question will very likely be snapped up quick, however the seller “left money on the table”, meaning that they could have sold the item for more money. The difference between what you sold it at, and what you could have sold it at is lost.

Pricing above that point means that supply is higher than demand. This is a worse case as it means that more items will enter the market than leaving it. While you “might” sell at this price point, there is a LOT of risk that someone will undercut you and leave you priced above the point at which the product begins to sell. If there is a large number of items entering below you, and quickly enough, you may never sell. The payoff for this risk is that if you get a buyer who is not very wise, who comes in between the point where you list your item and before the point where the next person lists theirs, you can get a far higher price.

So ultimately it depends on your goal: Do you want to sell fast to use that gold for other ventures? or are you ok with waiting for the item to move at a price you see as more accurate? or are you willing to risk over-pricing your item in the hopes of getting a higher value but knowing that you could have to relist and lose your 5%?

If your goal is to ensure no one undercuts you, you will have to list it quite undervalued to ensure a fast sale.

I can’t help but feel that everyone’s mad at me because I keep undercutting their goods. And my head hurts because the complainers are saying I’m selling for the same price, yet my prices are lower.

I’ve completely run out of witty comebacks, so I leave this thread in your care. You seem to have a good grasp on things here.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Imperatora.7654:

I can tell you exactly the price

the price it sells at before supply lets someone else post below you.

That is of course assuming that "selling it fast" is a primary goal. Maybe you need the gold to exploit another market, maybe you need it to buy an underpriced precursor, not for me to say.

If selling it right away is NOT a primary goal (you want to maximize profit for example), then the correct price is exactly at the intersection of supply and demand. It will take longer, as people will undercut you to sell quicker (see above), but they are leaving money on the table that you are willing to spend time to pick up.

Ultimately there is only two outcomes: Your auction sells, or it does not. If it does not that means the price is too high and all the undercutters in the world won’t change that fact. Demand at your price is too low given short term supply. You have no one to blame but yourself.

If your auction DOES sell, then all the undercutters in the world won’t change that fact. They may make it take longer, but you are making more money for that longer time than they are.

I think a little Econ 101 may be in order, this may be stuff you already know, but is good for the kids at home

Supply curves (usually a straight line actually) are negative. That means they slope down to the right. As supply goes up, price goes down. Demand curvers are the opposite, they slope up to the right... as demand goes up, so does price. Where they intersect is the point of highest profit.

Pricing below that point means that demand is higher than supply at that price. The item in question will very likely be snapped up quick, however the seller "left money on the table", meaning that they could have sold the item for more money. The difference between what you sold it at, and what you could have sold it at is lost.

Pricing above that point means that supply is higher than demand. This is a worse case as it means that more items will enter the market than leaving it. While you "might" sell at this price point, there is a LOT of risk that someone will undercut you and leave you priced above the point at which the product begins to sell. If there is a large number of items entering below you, and quickly enough, you may never sell. The payoff for this risk is that if you get a buyer who is not very wise, who comes in between the point where you list your item and before the point where the next person lists theirs, you can get a far higher price.

So ultimately it depends on your goal: Do you want to sell fast to use that gold for other ventures? or are you ok with waiting for the item to move at a price you see as more accurate? or are you willing to risk over-pricing your item in the hopes of getting a higher value but knowing that you could have to relist and lose your 5%?

If your goal is to ensure no one undercuts you, you will have to list it quite undervalued to ensure a fast sale.

I can’t help but feel that everyone’s mad at me because I keep undercutting their goods. And my head hurts because the complainers are saying I’m selling for the same price, yet my prices are lower.

I’ve completely run out of witty comebacks, so I leave this thread in your care. You seem to have a good grasp on things here.

Hah, if I found some items you could undercut I would be happy... But the droprates, oh dear.
I am not mad at people who undercut, because it is the natural thing to do.

But just because it is the right move for your personal profit does not mean it is a good mechanic that should stay

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Hah, if I found some items you could undercut I would be happy… But the droprates, oh dear.
I am not mad at people who undercut, because it is the natural thing to do.

But just because it is the right move for your personal profit does not mean it is a good mechanic that should stay

Are you suggesting that Anet implement changes that eliminate capitalism in the game? Something where everyone shared items and gold from a community pool provided by the game developer? Perhaps that would end the bickering between the Casual and Hardcore gamer classes. Then if we’re all on the same page as each other, there’d be no want or need for exploitation.

That actually would create a game closer to what some people seem to have expected.

But no, I am not suggesting that. I personally did not really have a problem with that 1c undercut, but if I had to form an opinion about it, which I have done by now, the amount you can cut, as in a minimal amount, should be determined by the current price of the item.

I’ve tried to reasonably move the conversation forward, unfortunately Smooth Penguin’s only reply is always 1c less is 1c less.

Even after conceding that point and asking for further discussion the reply is always, 1c less is 1c less.

This is always followed by: “well I guess that’s settled, let’s close the discussion”.

I hope everyone understands that there is no real reason to reply to him anymore, and I suggest others stop also until he actually addresses the points we come across.

1c less is 1c less, that’s a given.

The problem is that 1c less, for some items, is insignificant.

1c undercutting on Mithril Ore is significant (5%), 1c undercutting on Dawn is insignificant (0.0001%). Yet the game currently awards the same privilege for 1c undercutting on both items.

But I know what the response will be: “1c less is 1c less, don’t you understand that?”

Put 1c aside for every item bought and see how fast it piles up.

The change is specifically targeted to items where 1c is truly insignificant. It would not apply to items that are sold in bulk. You’re creating a strawman that is nonapplicable to the situation.

I’ll put 1c aside for every precursor I sell in a month, and I’ll have 1 copper. That’s what is happening here.

If an item is overpriced, 1c undercutting doesn’t matter.

1c undercutting just means that if a buyer comes along willing to pay whatever the price is they will buy the 1c undercut item instead of the original item. The undercutter gets 99.999999% of the original asking price, the buyer pays 99.999999% of the original asking price and the original seller has to wait longer than otherwise.

The alternate situation is not the original seller getting money, it’s that the undercutter has to undercut by a noninsignificant amount, the buyer gets the item for cheaper, the undercutter gets money but not as much and the original seller waits.

That is fair, the undercutter is giving something up to the buyer in order to be more appealing and getting a faster sale. Currently buyers are getting screwed because undercutters are gaining a market advantage without actually competing.

If the original price and the 1c undercut price is so high that no buyers buy the item before someone legitimately offering a lower selling price comes along, then the original and the 1c undercutter gets nothing. That is market forces at work, that’s fair. The change isn’t at all meant to reward people who post at high prices, it’s supposed to move the market towards equilibrium by requiring actual competition between sellers- not just exploitative 1c undercutting (on items where 1c is insignificant).

I’m still not understanding this argument. 1 copper less or 100 gold less is still less. The significance of the undercut means nothing, as if my item sold for 9 silver 99 copper, it’ll still sell at 10 silver, IF there are people who truly want to buy it. The items will be sold, and everyone is happy.

These people don’t realize that once Anet implements some sort mandatory % increase or decrease, that means we no longer have control over the prices of our own items. Anet’s system will then fully dictate how much we’re allowed to sell for at any given time, turning the TP into a glorified Merchant.

So again, 1 copper less is less. That make sense to me.

If you don’t get it by now, you’re never going to.
You’ve made your point. However, as long as you don’t actually understand our point (even if you don’t agree with it) there’s no real purpose in continuing the conversation with you.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

If you don’t get it by now, you’re never going to.
You’ve made your point. However, as long as you don’t actually understand our point (even if you don’t agree with it) there’s no real purpose in continuing the conversation with you.

I do get it that people are mad that their prices were undercut by someone else. But to ask that we lose the ability to dictate our own prices is a bit draconian.

The part that players want to lose control over the Player driven market is something I can’t grasp.

How would it be a loss of control if you can not undercut by 1 copper on an item in the 50g range, but you have to cut by… 1 gold at least instead. The option to cut more will always be available though.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

How would it be a loss of control if you can not undercut by 1 copper on an item in the 50g range, but you have to cut by… 1 gold at least instead. The option to cut more will always be available though.

That right there is where each player loses control of their own market. You’d be penalizing a player who’d want to offer their product for sale, but limit their potential incomes by putting up invisible price walls.

Anet’s system works well. If you want to change anything, us players need to change our habits. That’s why I’m trying to find a way to compromise between the people who don’t like undercutters, and the people who want a completely free and open market. But it’s so hard to find middle ground with people who see a single copper’s value differently.

Anet’s system works well in what regard exactly? It is working, but that is about it.

Edit: Invisible price walls? Where do you see them?(hue) You can always list higher, just not cut by 1 copper when the item costs 50g. There are no price walls, you just can not cut the guy above you by ‘nothing’ and still go first despite listing later than him.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Anet’s system works well in what regard exactly? It is working, but that is about it.

It allows me to have the freedom to sell my goods for whatever price I choose. I could post Twilight for 3,000 gold, or I could post it for 10 silver. The choice is mine on how I want to play this game.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Anet’s system works well in what regard exactly? It is working, but that is about it.

It allows me to have the freedom to sell my goods for whatever price I choose. I could post Twilight for 3,000 gold, or I could post it for 10 silver. The choice is mine on how I want to play this game.

And what me/some others are suggesting in no way takes away that freedom.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Anet’s system works well in what regard exactly? It is working, but that is about it.

It allows me to have the freedom to sell my goods for whatever price I choose. I could post Twilight for 3,000 gold, or I could post it for 10 silver. The choice is mine on how I want to play this game.

And what me/some others are suggesting in no way takes away that freedom.

Then you should be ok with 1 copper undercuts, as it’s part of being in a free and open market.

Okay, since you are obviously trolling by now, I am going to call it quits.