Guild Wars 2

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Okay, since you are obviously trolling by now, I am going to call it quits.

I’m not trolling. I just can’t come to understand how 1 copper can be ok in some situations, and not ok in others. It’s the same amount either way.

I’m not trolling. I just can’t come to understand how 1 copper can be ok in some situations, and not ok in others. It’s the same amount either way.

No, it’s really not. Let’s put it in a different situation. Say you’re destitute, with only 1c to your name. If I ask you to give me 1c, would you give it to me? Doubt it. Now, say you have 1g, and I ask you for that same 1c. I’m betting you’d be much more likely to be generous. Why? Because 1c matters less when you’re talking in terms of gold.

The reason you’re being accused of trolling is because this should be manifestly obvious, but you refuse to concede it.

Iures.2894:

I’m not trolling. I just can’t come to understand how 1 copper can be ok in some situations, and not ok in others. It’s the same amount either way.

No, it’s really not. Let’s put it in a different situation. Say you’re destitute, with only 1c to your name. If I ask you to give me 1c, would you give it to me? Doubt it. Now, say you have 1g, and I ask you for that same 1c. I’m betting you’d be much more likely to be generous. Why? Because 1c matters less when you’re talking in terms of gold.

The reason you’re being accused of trolling is because this should be manifestly obvious, but you refuse to concede it.

I don’t know how your example applies to the TP. We’re talking about selling items, not giving money away. And I wouldn’t give you the 1 copper either way.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Iures.2894:

I’m not trolling. I just can’t come to understand how 1 copper can be ok in some situations, and not ok in others. It’s the same amount either way.

No, it’s really not. Let’s put it in a different situation. Say you’re destitute, with only 1c to your name. If I ask you to give me 1c, would you give it to me? Doubt it. Now, say you have 1g, and I ask you for that same 1c. I’m betting you’d be much more likely to be generous. Why? Because 1c matters less when you’re talking in terms of gold.

The reason you’re being accused of trolling is because this should be manifestly obvious, but you refuse to concede it.

I don’t know how your example applies to the TP. We’re talking about selling items, not giving money away.

And this is why you’re accused of trolling.
You don’t get a whole lot more obvious of a metaphor than that.

the reason why a % based undercut system fails is thus:

Since the relist fee is 5% the only two limits that matter is a 5% difference (or less) and 5%+1c (assuming a high enough value that the 1c is not lost due to rounding errors)

at 5% or less limit, relisting for the person undercut will come at a loss. This is the exact system we have now, only with more restrictions on what the second seller can put his listing at. If the actual supply/demand intersection is 3% less, the second poster is systemically prevented from listing at the correct price. They can either match (and screw the buyers out of 3%), or undercut by 5% and lose out on 2% of the value of the item (I know which I would do, and it wouldn’t be the one that gives the buyer the better deal).

At 5%+1c, it creates a monopolists dreamland of near infinite flipping profit. If the limit was greater than 5%, by even 1c, it would allow heavy traders with deep pockets to guarantee profit on cornering a market. Since no one can list their auction close enough to mine such that the relist fee would be greater than the profit I would make from simply buying up their supply and relisting at my determined (and artificially high) price, I can continue to do exactly that until my pockets run dry. If demand is sufficiently high that my inflated price sells, that could go on indefinitely.

An artificial % based undercut cap is a lose/lose for buyers across the board. Either the % is lower or equal to the listing fee, in which case any item near the actual supply/demand intersection will be stuck at a higher price than it should be (with no actual advantage to sellers who have been undercut)… or the % is greater than the listing fee and monopolists will run wild cornering markets with nearly zero risk.

While I agree with you on the 5%+1c problem, there’s no reason why the number wouldn’t be less than 5%.
The limit is to prevent stupefyingly small undercuts, not to prevent someone from having to relist.

And in the current system the buyers are perpetually stuck at an inflated price because it doesn’t drop due to useless 1c undercuts.

If you actually implemented a system like that, the % undercut could start at prices over 1g, whereas you would have to undercut by at least 1% of the current seller price. Listing for 2g, you would have to undercut by 2 silver.

And please, do not start trying to explain me that a cut to 1.98 gold is a little bit beneath where the supply demand curves intersect..

Taking that example, even on Twilight for 3k gold, people would only have to cut by 30g. They do that right now, because people with 3k gold simply do not care about 30g. Have you seen the cutting on the TP?
Most of the sell listings are 100g or more apart. And so were the offers that came up over and over.

and if the market price on twilight is actually 2990? Are you going to list for 3k or 2970 and lose out on 20g? I know I’m not, screw the buyer, they can pay the higher price. They undercut by more than that not because “it’s polite” but because 3k isn’t the market price of that item (as evidenced by the fact it has yet to sell at that price point).

As soon as players are prevented from pricing accurately they will default to higher prices rather than lose out on profit, this is the very opposite of “good for the consumer”.

1c doesn’t matter, and now 2s doesn’t matter… tell me, what DOES matter? How many gold do you have to give up on every single item listed before you care? It can’t be >5% because if it is then monopolists run wild, and it can’t be =<5% because then we have exactly the same system we do now where I can undercut you for less than the listing fee it would take for you to relist your item at my new price.

Take some responsibility for your own actions. If you want a fast sale, price for a fast sale and accept the loss. If you want max profit, price for max profit and accept that it will take a while to sell. And if you screw up, and price too high, than accept YOUR screw up.

ITT:

People don’t seem to understand why items are listed at $199.99 irl.

here, I will give you a concrete numbers example from an item I just happened to have open on my gw2spidy (I’m not going to tell you what it IS because I don’t want you to see what it’s doing right now and cost me gold).

In early December, this weapon was selling for a hair over 30g, in volumes of 16-18 per hour. One hour later the price dropped to 29g, an hour after that 28.5, then an hour after that 25. Let’s see how your 5% undercut limit affects the system and how it “helps” buyers.

At zero-hour the price is 30g.
an hour after that the price is still 30g (not a 5% movement, thus sellers are going to default to the higher price)
an hour after that the price is still 30g (still not 5% from the last hour)
finally, 3h later, the price normalizes to 25g and the systemic balance is restored.

assuming a best case scenario of only 16 buys per hour, that makes a total of 40g scammed from buyers on this item alone. It’s not even particularly high volume of trade, the higher the volume the higher the differences between what players would be listing at and what players should be listing at.

Considering this will be happening mass-scale on every item over 1g (and there are a LOT) under your system, power traders will become your new best friend. It will take more gold out of average players and put it into the hands of those who know where the price points are than currently. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Those who know the markets will try to manipulate the price to stay as close to 4.99% over market value and reap a free 5% raise in market earnings.

Let’s take another example, not one from the AH this time, but an example none the less. Dusk. For the sake of argument, let’s assume I have 10,000 gold in my bank, and I want to corner the market on Dusks to raise the price from 300g to 600g (cause we know that would never happen….). I drop 3k and buy up every Dusk on the TP below 600g and relist them at that price (current gross: 6k). Now, you come in and try to sell your Dusk on the TP. Since your 5% system forces you to list for 570 or less, I can buy your Dusk instantly and relist it at 600 for no loss of gross. The 30g I pay in listing fee is 100% made back from the higher relist. It costs me nothing. If you list for LESS than 570, I make profit. You are forced to list at MY price, the buyer gets screwed, and the price NEVER drops.

The higher the price, lower the volume the BETTER for them as the less likely anyone else is to break their monopoly. While not as good as a 5%+1 system for market manipulation a 5% or less would still mean that they could artificially inflate the market value and keep it that high basically forever. As they could control the vast majority of the TP supply (see: Dusk), it would guarantee less loss in relisting an undercutter for the consortium price.

More monopolies, more market manipulations, less buyer freedom. This is NOT a good system for ANYONE.

Imperatora.7654:

and if the market price on twilight is actually 2990? Are you going to list for 3k or 2970 and lose out on 20g? I know I’m not, screw the buyer, they can pay the higher price. They undercut by more than that not because “it’s polite” but because 3k isn’t the market price of that item (as evidenced by the fact it has yet to sell at that price point).

As soon as players are prevented from pricing accurately they will default to higher prices rather than lose out on profit, this is the very opposite of “good for the consumer”.

1c doesn’t matter, and now 2s doesn’t matter… tell me, what DOES matter? How many gold do you have to give up on every single item listed before you care? It can’t be >5% because if it is then monopolists run wild, and it can’t be =<5% because then we have exactly the same system we do now where I can undercut you for less than the listing fee it would take for you to relist your item at my new price.

Take some responsibility for your own actions. If you want a fast sale, price for a fast sale and accept the loss. If you want max profit, price for max profit and accept that it will take a while to sell. And if you screw up, and price too high, than accept YOUR screw up.

I have no idea what you are talking about again. Your post has nothing to do with the point me and several other people tried to make.

Edit: Learn to read, my example was 1% not 5. Whatever, I am out of here.

No, it is NOT the same exact system if the requirement is less than 5%.
The system we have now is in effect a LIFO system, where someone gets to go to the front of the line for a ridiculously low price that no one actually gives a kitten about.
5% is FAR more than is necessary to make someone actually make a meaningful distinction in price.

Esrever.8613:

ITT:

People don’t seem to understand why items are listed at $199.99 irl.

Because the company values the momentary period of time that someone processes that as “$199” instead of “$200” more than they value 1 cent.
And it’s plainly not in any way price competition when they do that because EVERYONE does that.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Esrever.8613:

ITT:

People don’t seem to understand why items are listed at $199.99 irl.

Because the company values the momentary period of time that someone processes that as “$199” instead of “$200” more than they value 1 cent.
And it’s plainly not in any way price competition when they do that because EVERYONE does that.

they do it for the reason that The $0.01 is able to sell more things. They are competing with the price that is set in a person’s mind and how much the person expect to pay for the item. The 1c undercutting in this case has been used to produce more sells.

Esrever.8613:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Esrever.8613:

ITT:

People don’t seem to understand why items are listed at $199.99 irl.

Because the company values the momentary period of time that someone processes that as “$199” instead of “$200” more than they value 1 cent.
And it’s plainly not in any way price competition when they do that because EVERYONE does that.

they do it for the reason that The $0.01 is able to sell more things. They are competing with the price that is set in a person’s mind and how much the person expect to pay for the item. The 1c undercutting in this case has been used to produce more sells.

Except EVERYONE “undercuts” the real price by 1 cent. If they were actually fighting each others prices in this manner they wouldn’t all be at 1 or 5 cents below the dollar, or at $x.49, or whatever.
The only reason they do it is because the minor perception difference between the 2 prices, the way that people process the beginning and not the end of the number, is worth more than 1 cent.
However, there is no perceptual difference between $199.99 and $199.98, like there is with $200 and $199.99, and people don’t give a kitten about the 1 cent, which is why you don’t see $x.98 or other weird numbers except for things under a dollar.
So, taking this into account, all the arguments in here should be moved by 1 cent down. 1g to 99s99c. And then the 1c undercut to 99s98c is still completely insignificant.

1%, 4.99%, same system. All that it does is lowers the cost of monopolists to maintain their price lock on low volume items, and increases the cost to buyers on high volume items.

If I’m trying to hold Dusks at 600g, and you post at 599.99.99, I can either let you get one of my sales, or pay 30g to buy up your undercut and relist at my price. At 1% that goes down to 24g, 2% it’s 18 etc…. Every time you step up the “meaningful undercut” you make it cost less and less for me to keep a stranglehold on the market.

That’s bad for buyers, and bad for 99% of sellers (those who don’t have 10k in their bag to buy up an entire supply of precursors).

On high volume items, the difference is smaller per item, but astronomically higher over time due to, well, volume. 2s isn’t much on one sale, and you likely wouldn’t notice, but when you start handling thousands of transactions a day, that can add up to a 100g a day raise for a single mass volume trader (I know a few who would make that easy based on volume alone). This only moves wealth from the poor to the rich, that’s bad for buyers and 99% of sellers (those who don’t have 10k in their bag to buy up huge volumes of fast moving items).

At absolute best, this is a lose/break even/lose for buyers (they lose if the volume is low, they break even ONLY if the supply/demand intersection is exactly where the current price is and never moves, and they lose if the volume is high), and a win for sellers only if you already have massive reserves of gold… if you don’t you never will.

If you want to sell fast, price to sell fast. Why are you so against this? If you don’t care about selling fast, price to make profit. If you don’t care about either, why aren’t you just selling to a vendor and leave those of us who want to make gold the freedom to do so!

Imperatora, they dont understand that, or deliberatly wont. You re wasting time.

How about “undercut by however much you want.” I know that’s what I’m doing. :p

I’m seriously not sure now if some of the people in this thread are intentionally trolling or just plain stupid.

Imperatora.7654:

1%, 4.99%, same system. All that it does is lowers the cost of monopolists to maintain their price lock on low volume items, and increases the cost to buyers on high volume items.

If I’m trying to hold Dusks at 600g, and you post at 599.99.99, I can either let you get one of my sales, or pay 30g to buy up your undercut and relist at my price. At 1% that goes down to 24g, 2% it’s 18 etc…. Every time you step up the “meaningful undercut” you make it cost less and less for me to keep a stranglehold on the market.

Except of course that due to the 10% sales tax you lose a lot more than that.
Even at 5% minimum undercut (which is far too high) you still lose 60g by doing so, while tying up 600g in the meantime.
At 1%, that’s 84g, which isn’t a whole lot less than the 90g loss each at same price.
How much gold would someone be willing to hemorrhage to keep the price from dropping?
Plus, if the price truly is far higher than it should be, it’s only a matter of time until the supply overcomes his ability to hold the price high, the price drops, and now this person is stuck with a ton of completely overpriced items that he will have to sell at an even bigger loss to get some of his money back.

Aside from price fixing scenarios, whose survivability wouldn’t be impacted too much, forcing real undercuts causes prices to drop far more rapidly than the glacial speed it drops from 1c undercuts.
And it wouldn’t be a costless LIFO system any more, which is still the whole point.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Aside from price fixing scenarios, whose survivability wouldn’t be impacted too much, forcing real undercuts causes prices to drop far more rapidly than the glacial speed it drops from 1c undercuts.
And it wouldn’t be a costless LIFO system any more, which is still the whole point.

Can you point out an example where the price of an item has been consistently dropping over time by small 1c increments? I don’t believe such an item exists except as a hypothetical.

With items I’ve been selling (generally in the 2g-4g range), I see a mixture of undercutting amounts. Some people will undercut by 1c, others will undercut by 20s or more. I don’t worry about the 1c undercuts, as I know my item will still sell eventually. The larger undercuts force me to re-evaluate my original list price, especially as more sellers list around the lower price.

If I’m trying to hold Dusks at 600g, and you post at 599.99.99, I can either let you get one of my sales, or pay 30g to buy up your undercut and relist at my price. At 1% that goes down to 24g, 2% it’s 18 etc…. Every time you step up the “meaningful undercut” you make it cost less and less for me to keep a stranglehold on the market.

You’d actually be paying 90g to do that. Or 84g, or 78g. Only if the undercut is 15% or more do you break even or take in profits.

On the other hand, maybe I shouldn’t be telling you this. If you’re willing to buy out someone undercutting you by 5% and sell for a “profit,” maybe I should just let you have your sales. . .>_>

@Imperatora.7654

What possible advantage could someone gain from ‘keeping’ an item at 600g? They’ve already listed their item, so someone else lists theirs for 599g99s99c. Do you really think anyone would buy an item out, and relist it? Costing them 90g in total? For a profit of minus 89g99s99c?

What kind of world do you think we’re living in.

Now let’s say the limit was 1%, they’d lose 83g99s99c. 5%, they’d lose 59g99s99c. 10%, they’d lose 29g99s99c. 15%, they gain a single copper piece.

How exactly are these monopolists in your example operating? The absolute most anyone suggested (something likely way too high) for a 5% minimum undercut, even under this extreme point the monopolist still loses 10% of the money he puts in.

Astraea.6075:

Can you point out an example where the price of an item has been consistently dropping over time by small 1c increments?

Twilight: Currently two sell orders. 1 for 2999g99s99c, 1 for the low low price of 2999g99s98c. Clearly the lower price is a far better deal for the consumer, who can use that 1c to cover 0.1% of a local waypoint fare.

Astraea.6075:

If you want to sell fast, price to sell fast. Why are you so against this? If you don’t care about selling fast, price to make profit. If you don’t care about either, why aren’t you just selling to a vendor and leave those of us who want to make gold the freedom to do so!

The reason I’m against this is that these are not truly the options open to us. 1c undercutters can always take the exact same profit that first comers do, and will simply 1c undercut regardless of if the original seller ‘prices to sell fast’, or ‘prices to profit’.

If a person chooses a 200% profit the 1c undercutter can take 199.99999%, if they choose 10% profit the 1c undercutter can take 9.9999999%, if they choose 1%, the 1c undercutter can take 0.9999999%. The only possible thing that will deter the 1c undercutter is to take a loss- and that’s not a proper market. That’s not what the system should give as the only choice to sellers.

Let’s up the TP tax. I look forward to the day when I randomly find a Dusk and can’t afford to sell it at asking price.

I often undercut by 2c… that way if someone undercuts by 1c while I am setting up my offer, I undercut them. Something you learn on the EvE Online market, and if you think things are tough here… heh.

Just be glad the TP doesn’t really offer much in the way of monitoring your buy/sell orders or the competition would be much more fierce.

Gaudrath.6725:

I often undercut by 2c… that way if someone undercuts by 1c while I am setting up my offer, I undercut them. Something you learn on the EvE Online market, and if you think things are tough here… heh.

Just be glad the TP doesn’t really offer much in the way of monitoring your buy/sell orders or the competition would be much more fierce.

If I were to undercut by 2 copper from now on, maybe that’s the answer to this thead? 2 copper undercutting won’t destroy the competition.

Competition is there to be destroyed. It’s just a game, we can afford to be evil, unscrupulous banksters, no bad karma is involved and nobody will lose a job and have to sleep under a bridge.

Gaudrath.6725:

Competition is there to be destroyed. It’s just a game, we can afford to be evil, unscrupulous banksters, no bad karma is involved and nobody will lose a job and have to sleep under a bridge.

There’s a difference between competition where buyers benefit and competition where a seller gains an advantage over another without giving anything up.

I’m not saying 1c undercutters are evil, I’m a 1c undercutter. I’m simply saying that the longevity of the system needs this to be addressed.

In EVE you could at least relist your orders for free. The problem is the fixed listing fee combined with the ability to gain primacy with 0.00000001% of a transaction price.

If you’re attitude is that nothing matters because it’s a game- why are you even here? This is a game forum not the United Nations, this is where we talk about ultimately meaningless things.

Vorpal Smilodon.3025:

EVERYONE is a 1c undercutter, that’s the problem. There’s no point in the market being first in first out if charging 1c less makes you count as a separate queue.

I think the way to fix this is to only allow two digit values(not counting zeroes), ie 12 gold or 120000 copper having 11 gold as the next lowest possible offer, then 10 gold, then 990 silver

With your idea, if the current price is 11 Gold, you couldn’t offer 10, since that has a zero in it.

But we all agreed that 2 copper undercuts solves the problem of this thread.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

But we all agreed that 2 copper undercuts solves the problem of this thread.

No, actually, no one does.
Please refrain from blatant trolling.

Why not simply allow sellers to freely reduce the listing price without facing another listing fee?

If they’ve already paid 5% of 420g to list the item… Why not allow them to change the price to 419g98s to undercut the person that just undercut them?

Yeah, it’ll result in a bidding war… But it’ll eventually even out, right?

The thing is, if we were allowed free reposts, that would open up more complaints from the same people who think 1 copper is different than 1 copper on another item.

At least with the current system, there are some checks and balances with having to pay the 5% each time you post or repost.

Relisting could be free with one simple condition – you can have 10 listings at a time.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The thing is, if we were allowed free reposts, that would open up more complaints from the same people who think 1 copper is different than 1 copper on another item.

At least with the current system, there are some checks and balances with having to pay the 5% each time you post or repost.

I’d thank you to not put words in my mouth.

I’d have no problem with free relisting. I simply don’t think it’s a practical request as it goes against ANet’s intention.

The solution I suggested maintains the gold sink (same under both solutions), balances casual traders vs power traders (power traders would be infinitely more powerful under free relisting), and limits the strain on the TP servers (relisting would increase the strain many fold on the servers).

I could ask ANet to give us candy and rainbows, but then I’d just be throwing words in to the void.

I’d rather see ANet have higher final fees AND allow us to re-list with no penalties than have the current setup.

As it stands, I will probably NEVER sell my item because someone will ALWAYS come along and undercut me. In the past week I’ve had 5 people undercut AND sell. They undercut by 1c or 1s, some idiots even undercut 10g… The issue is, if I want to undercut them, then I lose my “listing” fee(~17g) and pay it again.

You want to know why the TP “sucks” and is cluttered with junk items: because people undercut like crazy + sell at basically less than vendor prices. It NEEDS to stop.

We either need fees only for COMPLETED sales OR ANet needs to make the TP non-global. Boohoo if you are on a lowpop server. Too bad. I’d rather deal with that, than have to deal with 10 other sellers of a particular item, who constantly undercut by troll amounts. Chances are the sellers are big players and don’t care if they only make 10s profit at the end of the day. The little guy just can’t compete with that.

Finally, someone with enough time/money could effectively “game” the system by constantly undercutting by 1c amounts in order to be the ONLY seller at all times. I’m fairly convinced that this is what is happening with the particular item I am attempting to sell atm(the price is just, as it sells; people just keep 1c undercutting to be the only seller).

Risingashes.8694:

Gaudrath.6725:

Competition is there to be destroyed. It’s just a game, we can afford to be evil, unscrupulous banksters, no bad karma is involved and nobody will lose a job and have to sleep under a bridge.

There’s a difference between competition where buyers benefit and competition where a seller gains an advantage over another without giving anything up.

I’m not saying 1c undercutters are evil, I’m a 1c undercutter. I’m simply saying that the longevity of the system needs this to be addressed.

In EVE you could at least relist your orders for free. The problem is the fixed listing fee combined with the ability to gain primacy with 0.00000001% of a transaction price.

If you’re attitude is that nothing matters because it’s a game- why are you even here? This is a game forum not the United Nations, this is where we talk about ultimately meaningless things.

Well, first, I am here because I like playing this game. I won’t get too upset if I can’t make a killing on the TP every time I post something up, because it’s a game. Doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy it.

Second, you have to pay tax in EvE as well. Sure, it is not as brutal as here, and you can get it to something really low, like ~3%, but when you have billions up on the market, it adds up.
With no tax on sell orders, everyone would just relist them endlessly and profit margins would snap shut really quickly. Something like that you can see in EvE, actually. If you have, say, a 15% profit margin, and the tax is 3%, you are going to see aggressive pricing wars where people keep just removing and reposting their orders as long as they can afford it – and then someone fresh comes in and undercuts them and reduces that profit margin to maybe 4-5%.

And yet the market is still there and people are still getting crazy rich off of it. It just needs more work. As I said, count yourself lucky that it is really annoying to keep track of how your sell and buy orders are doing in GW2 – in EvE you can have everything laid out of you nicely, in spreadsheet format and dynamically updated, and the result is that if you want to make a profit on the market, you have to babysit your orders. Some people do nothing but sit in Jita and shuffle numbers for 90% of their game time.

I agree that there needs to be a % system for “next lowest sale” On items. With low cost items that would still amount to only 1c, but as you get higher and into the 25s+ the % really will becoming more noticeable.

Gaudrath.6725:

…You have to pay tax in EvE as well. Sure, it is not as brutal as here, and you can get it to something really low, like ~3%, but when you have billions up on the market, it adds up.
With no tax on sell orders, everyone would just relist them endlessly and profit margins would snap shut really quickly.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Market_guide

Looks like the real rate is 1% for a new character, and reducible to 0.5% for veteran traders.

If my calculations are right, that means you were off by 200-500%.

5% vs 0.5%.

For a group of people who think a single copper is a significant amount of money, I’d think getting your figures right would be important.

In case no one hast suggested this in the past 5 pages (I need to go to sleep after reading the first one), how about modifiable listings without having to re-pay the listing fee?

You pay 5% of what you initially list it for, then you can lower by 1c all you want until you find a buyer. Then, you pay the 10% “hidden fee” based upon the selling price.

If it means “0.01 punks” take the price down to vendor, so be it. It will correct once the pee pee contest is over.

I think this thread has been derailed. Why exactly are we mad about 1 copper undercuts again? 1 copper less than the current price is still less right?

And 2 copper is 100% more than 1 copper, so that’s vastly different, but still less.

This is a mentality game that runs in circles. It’s the same as cutting through the que. The only problem is anyone can do it.

Imperatora.7654:

Let’s take another example, not one from the AH this time, but an example none the less. Dusk. For the sake of argument, let’s assume I have 10,000 gold in my bank, and I want to corner the market on Dusks to raise the price from 300g to 600g (cause we know that would never happen….). I drop 3k and buy up every Dusk on the TP below 600g and relist them at that price (current gross: 6k). Now, you come in and try to sell your Dusk on the TP. Since your 5% system forces you to list for 570 or less, I can buy your Dusk instantly and relist it at 600 for no loss of gross. The 30g I pay in listing fee is 100% made back from the higher relist. It costs me nothing. If you list for LESS than 570, I make profit. You are forced to list at MY price, the buyer gets screwed, and the price NEVER drops.

This example assumes some pretty big things;
1) that you will always have enough gold to buy your competition
2) that there will be demand at your higher price
3) that there is a relatively limited supply coming into the market
4) that you are online 100% of the time to buy up your competition
5) there is no sale fee

If you run out of money to continue to buy your competition (ie supply > demand) your price fixing scheme is broken. You can of coarse maintain your supply of money if the demand is high enough at your new price point by continuing to sell, but if people do not buy they you will run out as you buy up your competition. Then, the cheap supply from other people will out strip you and cause the price to fall.

If, however, you can effectively maintain your new price with a finite money supply then you haven’t screwed anyone out of anything, you merely found a right price, the one as you would say, is closer to where the “curves of supply and demand” meet.

Your example is also underpinned on you being active to maintain your hegemony, however, the most crucial thing missing from your post is the tax on the sale. A number of people have pointed this out so I won’t go into detail.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I think this thread has been derailed. Why exactly are we mad about 1 copper undercuts again? 1 copper less than the current price is still less right?
And 2 copper is 100% more than 1 copper, so that’s vastly different, but still less.

You sir are derailing this thread. I posted a link earlier for you to read to help explain why people are frustrated with your posts and believe there is no point in talking with you.

A rhetorical tautology is defined as a series of statements that form an argument, whereby the statements are constructed in such a way that the truth of the proposition is guaranteed or that, by defining a dissimilar or synonymous term in terms of another self-referentially, the truth of the proposition or explanation cannot be disputed. Consequently, the statement conveys no useful information regardless of its length or complexity making it unfalsifiable.

Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

In case no one hast suggested this in the past 5 pages (I need to go to sleep after reading the first one), how about modifiable listings without having to re-pay the listing fee?

You pay 5% of what you initially list it for, then you can lower by 1c all you want until you find a buyer. Then, you pay the 10% “hidden fee” based upon the selling price.

If it means “0.01 punks” take the price down to vendor, so be it. It will correct once the pee pee contest is over.

I like this idea. Sensible and practical.

As someone who only uses the TP intermittently, my selling strategy depends largely on whether the item/commodity is a fast moving one. For stuff that is generally bought and sold in bulk (like crafting materials), I’m usually happy to list it at whatever the lowest seller is offering. Even if someone undercuts by 1c, the commodity moves quickly enough that my listing still sells within 24 hours.

For items that don’t move quickly, I price my item mid-way between the highest buyer and the lowest seller. This usually renders me immune to undercutters because the sellers don’t want to take such a big hit to their profits, and it also guarantees a quick sale from sharp-eyed buyers. (Whether it’s by a player who genuinely wants the item or a power trader who’s looking to re-list it doesn’t really matter to me because I don’t have a very expensive wish list. Much of the game’s truly expensive vanity items simply don’t appeal to me aesthetically, so I have much less need to stockpile gold.)

majorkong.9073:

So what’s the harm? Stuff doesn’t sell? Because my stuff sells almost always and in a reasonable period of time.

Ditto and agreed.
It’s only when some idiot undercuts by 20+ SILVERS and then gets a whole lot of people start over with 1c undercutting that things can go wrong and stuff won’t sell. But if you pay attention to market swings you can then even just wait it out and the going price will yet again rise to what you originally listed for. Just makes your transaction a bit more long-term than you initially had liked it to be. Or you have to cut a 5% fee from your profit and re-list.

It’s fine as it is btw.
Do not change so that you pay the listing fee once and then can lower the price indefinitely until you find a buyer. I think that will “destroy” the economy much more than the existing solution – which doesn’t.

As soon as you allow people to adjust the price of their items after they’re up, the key to profits in this game will be to sit at the TP babysitting all your sells constantly which will be extremely annoying. There’s this assumption that as soon as you can adjust the price, your price will always be on bottom and everything will be okay. In reality, there’ll be 20 other people doing it on your item and you’ll sit there refreshing the page every 3 seconds playing with the price on a 10g item for an hour by tiny increments.

As it is the game gives you little incentive to leave the TP, due to normal game activities not giving profit worthy of the opportunity cost of bothering. Lets not seal the deal by actively encouraging people to stand at the TP after putting their items up to boot.

In fact now that I think about it, that might even be something that would get me to leave the game.

I can’t imagine some of the people’s face when I undercut people by nearly 1-20g and yet I still make a profit while they sit there watching their items rot.