Guild Wars 2

Hello there.

I’m feeling that since the 15th patch, there’s something on specific that i believe that turned “Pay-To-Win”, or simply the loss of one functionality we had before easily without buy gem store items.

Such is about specially Runes and the Transmutation stones.

Before we could transmute items to form a new one with the stats, rune and visual we wanted to, without need to loose our runes or get expensive useless items on the bank just because we can’t salvage, can’t sell and they’re soulbound (Karma/WvW and Ascended Gear).

After the patch, we’re forced to buy one expensive item on the Gem Store that isn’t awarded on anywhere else on this game to be able to get runes back, the Upgrade Extractor.

This change is forcing people to buy gems to get this item and be able to get their upgrades back, with the loss of the old functionality that easy fixed that problem i can’t stop feeling this is “buy this gem store item or you get nothing”.

(i’m aware this item was there before the patch, i’m discussion how it’s now the only option with non-salvageable gear after the patch)_

Kypriathe.4183:

I don’t see what the difference is. Can’t you just apply a new skin to the armor piece that had the stats and rune you wanted?

It’s not about that, it’s about you have one Set of Armor with that X Runes and stats. Before you wanted to change to a new set you did just buy, with the runes of the old one, if you can’t salvage them, you simply can’t get your upgrades back like before, just merging the stats/upgrades on transmute, something that is not possible anymore.
This was the only way the Karma and some other gear, had the chance to not loose all upgrades we did to them.

That’s why i said, you’re forced to buy gems to get Upgrade Extractor on such items.

You can buy Gems with in-game earned gold, Transmutation Stones are for cosmetic changes only which are not pay to win and you still earn them from map completion and PvP Reward Tracks, and you can get runes back with any salvage kit.

Any of those three points negates the pay to win argument, but the fact that nothing in the gem store gives you a single advantage of anyone else (which is the single criteria for a game to be pay to win anyway) also does a pretty good job of proving that you’re wrong.

People seem to not understand that this actually has nothing to do with cosmetics. You have a set of PTV armor with scholar runes… that happens to be karma/WvW armor. You want to switch to beserker armor and transfer those runes over. You cannot do that now. That’s a problem and has nothing to do with cosmetics.

So AntiSaneity, you did a pretty good job of proving yourself wrong given you can’t salvage all armor and the new wardrobe transmutation wouldn’t work in that case.

AntiSaneity.3628:

You can buy Gems with in-game earned gold, Transmutation Stones are for cosmetic changes only which are not pay to win and you still earn them from map completion and PvP Reward Tracks, and you can get runes back with any salvage kit.

Any of those three points negates the pay to win argument, but the fact that nothing in the gem store gives you a single advantage of anyone else (which is the single criteria for a game to be pay to win anyway) also does a pretty good job of proving that you’re wrong.

The gear i own isn’t salvageable, right now it’s at the bank with the only utility to be the DELETE button, no salvage, no sell and soulbound, something we could before transmute (and it wasn’t only for the looks!), so we created a new item from 2. That is one functionality we lost that is only possible again via Gem Store. As the Upgrade Extraction, that one is not awarded anywhere else on the game.

This is the first time i’m forced to go to the gemstore to be able to do something i did before without depend of gem items. Not to talk about such item on gold conversion costs more than any rune in-game, so for us that can’t salvage it’s a loss-loss situation.

I don’t think people are understanding. The only way you can remove runes from karma/WvW/ascended gear is through an upgrade extractor, which is only available for gems.

Converting gems to gold? It amounts to somewhere around 20g per extractor. What rune is even close to 20g? You’re better off buying new runes, but why should people have to waste 60+ gold for a single set when you upgrade to a better one, while people with crafted or dungeon exotics can get their runes back?

This is a real issue, and I do agree it is p2w if they don’t give us a way to remove these runes or sigils. I honestly don’t even care if salvaging only gave the rune and nothing else, and bound the rune – I just want a way to get my runes back. Right now there isn’t a feasible option.

Lmfao at p2w. Annoying? Sure, But to say this is pw2 is laughable. Next time don’t use misleading titles for your posts.

P2W would require it to actually give you an actual advantage over people that don’t buy them though. Which is not the case.
Everyone can just buy the exact same things in-game (the runes).

Jrunyon.3012:

Lmfao at p2w. Annoying? Sure, But to say this is pw2 is laughable. Next time don’t use misleading titles for your posts.

lordkrall.7241:

P2W would require it to actually give you an actual advantage over people that don’t buy them though. Which is not the case.
Everyone can just buy the exact same things in-game (the runes).

Oh, Do you want one actual advantage over the people that don’t buy them?
The people that buy them can get their runes back and re-sell/use them.

Not being able to salvage karma and BoH gear does not constitute P2W by any means. In fact it’s a stupid argument tbh. There is no ‘Win’ involved. As far as the OP, you’re a ways off too, as the upgrade extractor costs more than any upgrade in the game (with the exception of infusions) making this a rediculous claim. Anyone that is buying upgrade extractors in order to ‘Win’ is, in fact, only losing.

The problems with the new transmutation system has been discussed in multiple threads already ie. upgraded karma armor etc. ‘P2W’ was never brought up b/c it’s a silly.

Tman.6349:

Not being able to salvage karma and BoH gear does not constitute P2W by any means. In fact it’s a stupid argument tbh. There is no ‘Win’ involved. As far as the OP, you’re a ways off too, as the upgrade extractor costs more than any upgrade in the game (with the exception of infusions) making this a rediculous claim. Anyone that is buying upgrade extractors in order to ‘Win’ is, in fact, only losing.

The problems with the new transmutation system has been discussed in multiple threads already ie. upgraded karma armor etc. ‘P2W’ was never brought up b/c it’s a silly.

I have actually edited the thread, on the most correct way it’s a loss of functionality we had before to do not loose upgrades on items we can’t salvage or use on other chars.

Agreed. The Upgrade Extractor is way too expensive and we should be able to Salvage Karma/WvW armor simply for the Rune inside it; and nothing else.

ANet wants that $$ though..so they can do as they please

Max Lexandre.6279:

Oh, Do you want one actual advantage over the people that don’t buy them?
The people that buy them can get their runes back and re-sell/use them.

Which is not really an unobtainable advantage.
I could get those runes by simply playing the game and selling them.

I think it’s shoddy that this change occurred too, but it is in no way pay to win.

Max Lexandre.6279:

AntiSaneity.3628:

You can buy Gems with in-game earned gold, Transmutation Stones are for cosmetic changes only which are not pay to win and you still earn them from map completion and PvP Reward Tracks, and you can get runes back with any salvage kit.

Any of those three points negates the pay to win argument, but the fact that nothing in the gem store gives you a single advantage of anyone else (which is the single criteria for a game to be pay to win anyway) also does a pretty good job of proving that you’re wrong.

The gear i own isn’t salvageable, right now it’s at the bank with the only utility to be the DELETE button, no salvage, no sell and soulbound, something we could before transmute (and it wasn’t only for the looks!), so we created a new item from 2. That is one functionality we lost that is only possible again via Gem Store. As the Upgrade Extraction, that one is not awarded anywhere else on the game.

This is the first time i’m forced to go to the gemstore to be able to do something i did before without depend of gem items. Not to talk about such item on gold conversion costs more than any rune in-game, so for us that can’t salvage it’s a loss-loss situation.

You can buy the extractor with in-game gold. And since it’s a rune you can also re-buy with in-game gold, there’s no pay to win involved. Someone using a credit card gets no advantage over someone using gold to buy gems, which makes any pay to win argument null and void.

Technically, they could require us to buy our levels, traits, zone access, etc. from the store and since in-game gold can be turned into gems, nothing can really be considered P2W.

I’m thinking this was just an oversight. Don’t think that it was completely intended to sell that ONE particular item. My hopes is that a way to salvage those expensive runes/sigils/azurite orbs from karma/wvw gear will be put in place.

Besides, if the gear is lvl 80 and you want to continue to use the runes/sigils/orbs, just transmute over the item and continue to use the gear. Otherwise just play the game and acquire them all over again. Even the few that are expensive have alternates that could be used as place holders that really doesn’t subtract that much per build.

Not P2W. Nothing in this game has been P2W, ever, that includes the watchwork mining pick(had a bonus I didn’t agree with, but wasn’t P2W).

Side note: That item in the gem store needs a severe price reduction as do all gem store items imo. Each item would probably sell more if they were cheaper to make up the difference. I know I would buy more stuff from there if they were, probably on a increased bases also for items that can be used several times.

Question…why are all the finishers different prices? LoL, who determined one was better than the other and should cost more? Seems silly to me.

Annoying, yes. Potentially expensive, yes. Deserving of a quick fix, yes.

Pay-to-Win, no.

Even if you used the new transmute system on an armor you can still salvage it like you could before.

Items you couldn’t salvage due to karma gear before can’t be salvaged now either.

So before you had to use a transmutation stone to transfer that rune to another stat set, now you have to buy the rune again. Either way, you had to invest potential gold for the transmutation stone before, and you have to invest gold for the rune now. So after all of that its the same investment only in a different way.

I swear, I lose brain cells every time I see one of these ‘pay to win’ threads in Dress Up Wars 2 forums.

Extractors had been in the store for quite some time, way before the April patch was even hinted at. Edit: Introduced 4 months ago.

Even when they were first introduced, it was normally cheaper simply to buy the run/sigil again.

The problem comes from the fact that the transmutation stone/runes allowed you to do more than take the skin from one item and place it on the other but allowed you to mix skin, upgrade and item stats between two items, keeping one and discarding the other. Maybe they never considered that players used this ability to transfer upgrades from non-salvageable item as a cheap extractor. Maybe when pointed out they went “Hey, that’s why the extractor isn’t selling” and “fixed” that oversight.

Edit: More likely, now that I saw it introduced 4 months ago, that the change was intentional. That they knew the way the wardrobe system was being designed that this ability was going to be lost so they put the extractor into the store so it wasn’t rolled out at the same time.

This is why there’s a problem with adding vertical progression to what was a horizontal system where the only thing they thought players would care about is moving skins onto desired items rather than moving upgrades instead of or as well.

I’m usually excited to shut down the “P2W” complainers when threads like this come around. However, I really think the OP has absolutely no idea what he’s talking about. So I’ll politely ask the following:

Am I “winning” by spending 25 Gold to extract a rune worth 10 Gold?

If P2W means ANet wins then yes OP, it’s P2W.

I always find the whole P2W discussion interesting to see. Especially how people define P2W. It seems to be that they define it as ‘Pay2 Kill’ what might make sense in a FPS but not so much in a MMORPG game. Everybody plays a game RPG game different and for one person his goal might be kills but for another it’s the best looking outfit or a full collection of mini’s. So reaching that is there equivalent of winning.

Also the whole “you can buy gems so it’s never p2w or a cash-shop” is a little strage is in many real obvious P2W games there are also ingame methods to get the item. It just takes a lot longer and is more boring.. you know, like having to grind gold? Besides GW2 has all those temporary available stuff that a normal person can never grind all gold for.

But for me the question you should ask yourself is not ’ is it pay to win’ but ‘does it effect the game’. Then people tent to say mini’s don’t effect the game (going back to there P2W definition as P2Kill) what is funny to me in a MMO Role Playing Game. As having or collecting a mini is very much part of a role playing game. Even changing your haircut is.

Now if you take those elements effectively out of the game-play our make them obsolete by also giving a short-cut because you offer such items or services in a cash-shop you are effecting the game because you take PvE content out or make it trivial.

That is the whole problem with cash-shops and PvE games. Why it might work so well (at least in the short run) from a commercial viewpoint but is so bad for the game itself. There is almost nothing you can put I there that does not effect the game (that’s also why people are more likely to buy it). A name-changer, a race changer a sex changer and a total make-over kit. Maybe extra char slots (if enough are provided from the beginning) but that’s about it.

That is also why I was interested in GW2. A B2P game, and looking at how they where truly B2P at least until they shifted focus to GW2. Generating money with expansion-sales. Sadly the shifted to cash-shop focus in stead of expansion-based income.

Cash shops could work. Lets say we have a F2P (likely a not serious one) and you sell outfits that don’t give any benefit, not in stats, not in concealment. Then you don’t effect the actual game-play of the game (killing each other (likely why people define P2W as P2Kill)) and so it’s fine. However this is a MMORPG and much more elements effect the game-play including skins. For many skins (and related) are even more important then stats.

Can’t you just Craft, buy on TP, find/loot, trade for a new rune?

If there is one item you can’t salvage, buy a new one on TP… That’s what I do. Actually I don’t even understand why there is so many people with this problem? There has only been a few times I had a gear that couldn’t be salvaged and that did not bother me that much at all. So is there runes that are locked in to these un-salvagable gears that you can’t aquire in another way that just upgrade extractor?

On the other hand, let’s say that just that rune is worth 20g but convert enough gold to gems is maby cheaper?

P2W item? You realise that if you were to convert 250 Gems into gold, you’d get enough to rebuy those runes and still have some more to spare? The item itself is so bad that it can’t be considered P2W.

Why would u put expensive runes into Karma gear in the first place……..And is this your first MMO ? Anet has done very well in not making this a pay to win game…..

Also NOBODY uses the upgrade extractor…..unless they have gems to throw around. This is a non issue. Just get new gear put new runes and be happy…….

Devata.6589:

I always find the whole P2W discussion interesting to see. Especially how people define P2W. It seems to be that they define it as ‘Pay2 Kill’ what might make sense in a FPS but not so much in a MMORPG game. Everybody plays a game RPG game different and for one person his goal might be kills but for another it’s the best looking outfit or a full collection of mini’s. So reaching that is there equivalent of winning.

Also the whole “you can buy gems so it’s never p2w or a cash-shop” is a little strage is in many real obvious P2W games there are also ingame methods to get the item. It just takes a lot longer and is more boring.. you know, like having to grind gold? Besides GW2 has all those temporary available stuff that a normal person can never grind all gold for.

But for me the question you should ask yourself is not ’ is it pay to win’ but ‘does it effect the game’. Then people tent to say mini’s don’t effect the game (going back to there P2W definition as P2Kill) what is funny to me in a MMO Role Playing Game. As having or collecting a mini is very much part of a role playing game. Even changing your haircut is.

Now if you take those elements effectively out of the game-play our make them obsolete by also giving a short-cut because you offer such items or services in a cash-shop you are effecting the game because you take PvE content out or make it trivial.

That is the whole problem with cash-shops and PvE games. Why it might work so well (at least in the short run) from a commercial viewpoint but is so bad for the game itself. There is almost nothing you can put I there that does not effect the game (that’s also why people are more likely to buy it). A name-changer, a race changer a sex changer and a total make-over kit. Maybe extra char slots (if enough are provided from the beginning) but that’s about it.

That is also why I was interested in GW2. A B2P game, and looking at how they where truly B2P at least until they shifted focus to GW2. Generating money with expansion-sales. Sadly the shifted to cash-shop focus in stead of expansion-based income.

Cash shops could work. Lets say we have a F2P (likely a not serious one) and you sell outfits that don’t give any benefit, not in stats, not in concealment. Then you don’t effect the actual game-play of the game (killing each other (likely why people define P2W as P2Kill)) and so it’s fine. However this is a MMORPG and much more elements effect the game-play including skins. For many skins (and related) are even more important then stats.

P2W is what a particular complainer is unable or unwilling to afford usually and what others are able to afford.

P2w with the upgrade extractor? You’d spend around the same buying new runes. More like P2L

Max Lexandre.6279:

Jrunyon.3012:

Lmfao at p2w. Annoying? Sure, But to say this is pw2 is laughable. Next time don’t use misleading titles for your posts.

lordkrall.7241:

P2W would require it to actually give you an actual advantage over people that don’t buy them though. Which is not the case.
Everyone can just buy the exact same things in-game (the runes).

Oh, Do you want one actual advantage over the people that don’t buy them?
The people that buy them can get their runes back and re-sell/use them.

You do realize the cost of an extractor far outweighs any rune cost at the moment?

You’re better off scrapping the runes and selling the gems you’d use to buy the extractor with.

Old news. With this analogy GW2 has always been P2W.

Buy gold with gems → buy runes → win.

It’s a massive inconvenience which I personally hate, but I disagree about it being pay-2-win. People who pay real money to buy an upgrade extractor do not have an advantage because they’re being ripped off; no rune is worth 25g, for the gold price of one upgrade extractor someone can easily buy two of the most expensive runes, so they’ll never make a profit with the extractor.

Topic #3982475692387569328476529384756 about upgrade extractors.

Really…. people are going to hone in on the erroneous ‘P2Win’ bit and completely derail the thread and ignore the actual problem? Sheesh…

The actual problem being that players got around the no salvaging of Karma and WvW armors by using transmutation to salvage runes. It was a side effect of transmutation for skinning purposes and now that we have a skinning only system, extractors now have a purpose.

I find it interesting that town clothes vanished in the same patch as extractors were introduced. It’s now obvious to me that ANet knew they were removing the upgrade extraction that transmutation granted and added an item to the Gem Store to provide the same capability.

People always get upset when their loophole/dodge gets eliminated if it’s in taxes, CCGs or MMOs.