Guild Wars 2

I will be honest. A good economy makes me want to play. WoW had a good economy depending on the server of course.

I am poor in real life. So why would I want to role play as poor? They need to increase the amount the vendors will buy stuff for. That is a huge problem for me. I know I am waiting to see if another MMO that is coming out will have a better Economy set up. I know the series so I do have a bit more faith in them for making a better Economic model. I know they are trying to get people to buy gems, but it makes me not want to even bother when they come out with an expansion.

Could you please take your time and elaborate on what you are trying to say. What do you think a good economy is and what is bad about the guild wars 2 economy ?

The people that say silly stuff like these usually say it for 2 reasons.
1. They lack understanding real economies.
2. They are so used to all the crappy game economies that when they see one that is more similar to a real one (not to the extent of EvE). That they complain.

The OP is not silly, he is simply noticing one of the key differences – in his example between the wow “economy” and the one here. Mind you that I don’t use “economy” as a technical term – you may replace it with “gold making mechanic”.

Other games reward you (in terms of gold) just by playing – with vendor trash drops (as well as daily quests). The amount you get from that usually pays for some of the NPC sold more expensive items. Here, in order to be rewarded with gold – you have to utilize the TP.

One question I always ask when I see comments like “I make 4-5G in a 30 min dungeon run” is if that includes sales of the dropped items on the TP. I never get an answer to that.

At the end of the day, the only value that gold has (for me) is NPC prices. I don’t expect that ratio to change and made my own peace with it for now.

Why – because from my point of view this all has to do in a way with the “just play” goal. I am not expected to “grind” or “farm”. This is not easy to convey or to balance.

But for myself the consequence is that I for the most part decide not to use the TP for certain things – I’d rather go grind them. This is my own decision based on my playstyle though which is not applicable in general. I can certainly see it working very fine for others and with recent changes going into the future – e.g. Tx mats for laurels.

In a nutshell – vendor trash won’t bring you very close to “higher” goals OP – sell items on the TP, check the prices first and don’t use the sell option out of the sell window right away. Sell most items that you don’t need anymore unless you think the price may go up in a time frame that you are comfortable with.

I’m with Maylojager, we need more information.

Anecdotally: when I was leveling up my first 80, doing some crafting by buying materials from the BLTC, I never found myself wanting for money. I didn’t do any farming, just played the story and did zone completion when it was appropriate. Almost all of my money went to crafting, and in retrospect this may have been an inefficient use of my limited funds, but I derived fun from that part of the game. The majority of my equipment was always of approximately current level. The upshot of all of this is that I would have never considered myself poor, because even though I was strapped for cash I was always sufficiently equipped to be able to play level appropriate content. Importantly to me, I could play this content without grinding/farming for equipment.

Sure, I’m poor when you compare me to people who are actively working on their legendaries. But there will forever be someone who plays more than I can (or want to), and even people who play the same as I do but are much more dedicated to making money. I have decided less wealth than such people, but does that make me poor?

I’m not wanting for anything I need to play any of the content in the game, so I don’t consider myself poor. This happened to me very organically, I never focused on making money (indeed, as noted, I probably threw away a lot of money on my first character by crafting), so I’m inclined to say that the economy is not bad. Maybe it’s a matter of perspective?

I don’t want to sound like I’m dismissing your concern out-of-hand, but that’s my take, until we get more information.

Rouven.7409:

The OP is not silly, he is simply noticing one of the key differences – in his example between the wow “economy” and the one here. Mind you that I don’t use “economy” as a technical term – you may replace it with “gold making mechanic”.

Other games reward you (in terms of gold) just by playing – with vendor trash drops (as well as daily quests). The amount you get from that usually pays for some of the NPC sold more expensive items. Here, in order to be rewarded with gold – you have to utilize the TP.

One question I always ask when I see comments like “I make 4-5G in a 30 min dungeon run” is if that includes sales of the dropped items on the TP. I never get an answer to that.

At the end of the day, the only value that gold has (for me) is NPC prices. I don’t expect that ratio to change and made my own peace with it for now.

Why – because from my point of view this all has to do in a way with the “just play” goal. I am not expected to “grind” or “farm”. This is not easy to convey or to balance.

But for myself the consequence is that I for the most part decide not to use the TP for certain things – I’d rather go grind them. This is my own decision based on my playstyle though which is not applicable in general. I can certainly see it working very fine for others and with recent changes going into the future – e.g. Tx mats for laurels.

In a nutshell – vendor trash won’t bring you very close to “higher” goals OP – sell items on the TP, check the prices first and don’t use the sell option out of the sell window right away. Sell most items that you don’t need anymore unless you think the price may go up in a time frame that you are comfortable with.

Selling your items on the outpost does not constitute ‘playing the TP’. Playing the TP means investing in items to speculate, or power trading items short-term.

I really don’t get the reluctance to use the outpost as if it were some black market

If you increase the value of gold that the vendor buys, then that just increases inflation.

GaiusJuliusCasear.7253:

I will be honest. A good economy makes me want to play. WoW had a good economy depending on the server of course.

I am poor in real life. So why would I want to role play as poor? They need to increase the amount the vendors will buy stuff for. That is a huge problem for me. I know I am waiting to see if another MMO that is coming out will have a better Economy set up. I know the series so I do have a bit more faith in them for making a better Economic model. I know they are trying to get people to buy gems, but it makes me not want to even bother when they come out with an expansion.

You are poor because you don’t know how to make gold, not because of how the system is set up now.

If you ask for higher vendor prices, that increases inflation, meaning your buying power with whatever gold you have is lower than it was before inflation took place.

If I have 100g, and you consider that rich, and then we have inflation go up 100%, then suddenly I’m not so rich anymore. It’s all relative.

I should also expand on the inflation remark – even if they increased the price that the vendor buys your blue item from 50c to 2g, sure, you may think you are richer because you have a ton of gold in your inventory.

But everyone else in the game is richer as well. And so you’re really no better off.

Vol.5241:

Selling your items on the outpost does not constitute ‘playing the TP’. Playing the TP means investing in items to speculate, or power trading items short-term.

I really don’t get the reluctance to use the outpost as if it were some black market

If you increase the value of gold that the vendor buys, then that just increases inflation.

That’s your definition. I hardly ever looked at the TP in other games, here it is sort of always there – which is also of course a good thing. Still, utilizing the TP is always playing the TP – either direct by checking prices before selling/buying, or indirect by accepting sells/buys from others.

I really don’t get why everything has to be painted either black or white, without perhaps talking about differences people experience, be it a real issue or only perceived.

I seem to remember another thread that stated we don’t have an inflation – or better that we cannot truly determine that because we don’t have all the numbers. In that regard I would argue that it would definitely raise the bar to a new price level – absolutely, but the NPC prices remain stable and therefore “easier” or “faster” to obtain, which would make some people feel “richer”.
That or some people might just feel richer because the amount of gold they have is higher, even if that is just an illusion looking at the overall picture.

Let’s try not to start the usual “you just want easymode”, “Anet only want x% to have this”, “you are supposed to work” discussion – but instead:

How to balance valid potential play styles to make them all feel equally rewarding and fun?

Perhaps only trying to give feedback instead of stating own perceived “facts”.

The ONE AND ONLY way to calm the kitten market prices is to add a regulation like a timed expiration date for postings. 48 hours will do the job.

Tbh, to me the problem is that Anet seems to think that a good economy is a realistic economy, and while I don’t agree with everything the poster sais, I do have to agree that the economy should make you want to play.

example of stuff that is not really viable in gw2s economy, is getting steals, I had alot of fun looking for superb deals in other games, and it dosnt take as much economical knowledge to be good at it, just takes patience.

This is partially because the players are way to well informed about prices, due to sites like spidy being allowed to exist (don’t get me wrong, I love gw2spider, but I feel the economy would be better of without it).

Another part is the fact that you cannot in any way safely trade outside of using the TP.

GaiusJuliusCasear.7253:

I am poor in real life. So why would I want to role play as poor? They need to increase the amount the vendors will buy stuff for.

I lol’d a little bit at this. Not gonna lie. I’m not sure how increasing the amount vendors will buy stuff for will make the economy better. The vendor makes your item disappear in exchange for generating money.

The TP on the other hand give the item you don’t want to a player who will give you their money for it. How is this a bad economy? Are you sure you’re not really asking for no economy?

It’s not really that hard to make money in this game. Most people treat in-game money the way they do real life money – as soon as they get it they spend it on something. Instead spend some time flipping items or make some long term investments.

What vendor items do you want to buy that seem too expensive relative to income?

OP just wants to play the way he wants. Isn’t that the goal anet? Why can’t he trade a porous bone for a dusk at the precursor vendor?!

No, but each day this game feels more like playing wallstreetwars2. I finished a degree in economics and this is the last thing I want to do in a game that I love. There has to be regulations. Even trading between players should be in. Every time I click on the BLTC this movie pop up in my mind:

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

Tbh, to me the problem is that Anet seems to think that a good economy is a realistic economy, and while I don’t agree with everything the poster sais, I do have to agree that the economy should make you want to play.

example of stuff that is not really viable in gw2s economy, is getting steals, I had alot of fun looking for superb deals in other games, and it dosnt take as much economical knowledge to be good at it, just takes patience.

This is partially because the players are way to well informed about prices, due to sites like spidy being allowed to exist (don’t get me wrong, I love gw2spider, but I feel the economy would be better of without it).

Another part is the fact that you cannot in any way safely trade outside of using the TP.

The problem with not having spidy:
The TP is way to “easily” programmable in apps, so it could be even worse… Even fewer people would have access to information and they could “dominate” us completely.

Awesome.6120:

OP just wants to play the way he wants. Isn’t that the goal anet? Why can’t he trade a porous bone for a dusk at the precursor vendor?!

406250 porous bones and you got yourself a deal.

Etien.4601:

No, but each day this game feels more like playing wallstreetwars2. I finished a degree in economics and this is the last thing I want to do in a game that I love. There has to be regulations. Even trading between players should be in. Every time I click on the BLTC this movie pop up in my mind:

So what do you love about this game?

If you didn’t have too much gold in-game (say you have 100G) is there anything preventing you from doing the things you love about this game?

John Smith.4610:

You’re saying you prefer market failures because it adds a sense of opportunity?

In a way that is exactly what im saying, a healthy game market should in my opinion have a sense of opportunity, I rarely get that feeling at all in the current market, even when I do find a item with high return rates, it always ends up as a boring 1cp up pricing war.

Not fun at all.

One example of this is d3, It was a absoluty HORRIBLE game, and the amount of inflation in the ah made it progressivly worse.

But the sense of opportunity was great, It actually felt worthwhile to sit down and watch the prices of items for hours upon hours, actually getting rewarded for learning the actual value and demand of a item, rather then having the game tell you the demand etc.

The current TP works great for high quantity items like crafting mats etc, but for higher value items I don’t like it at all.

Infact chances are precursors would go down naturally in price if players wernt instantly informed that they can get 500g for them trough tp.

That said, I am not a very articulate man, nor am I a econmics wizards, So I am prob not the best person to explain how to do this or come up with how it should be done.

I do how ever know what I like in Mmos after 15+ years of playing them, and being able to get deals is one of the major draws for me, and it is something that has been possible in almost every single mmo up to date, with the exception of gw2.

Gw2 tp just seems to end up as a cold number crunching game to me, and I can’t find the fun in it.

and im gueesing im not the only one.

Edit: Dan, that is kinda my point, I feel allowing access to that info outside of game is a mistake.

Ursan.7846:

Etien.4601:

No, but each day this game feels more like playing wallstreetwars2. I finished a degree in economics and this is the last thing I want to do in a game that I love. There has to be regulations. Even trading between players should be in. Every time I click on the BLTC this movie pop up in my mind:

So what do you love about this game?

If you didn’t have too much gold in-game (say you have 100G) is there anything preventing you from doing the things you love about this game?

Pretty much everything else. Just the TP bugs me off. Not everybody knows how economics work thus giving the people who do an advantage over other players.
It’s like – get rich or die trying. I know how to play the TP but this is not my game and I refuse to play that way. But why should I and many others feel kittened up by people who does exactly the opposite by screwing up with the prices. This ain’t fun – IN A GAME.

Etien.4601:

Ursan.7846:

Etien.4601:

No, but each day this game feels more like playing wallstreetwars2. I finished a degree in economics and this is the last thing I want to do in a game that I love. There has to be regulations. Even trading between players should be in. Every time I click on the BLTC this movie pop up in my mind:

So what do you love about this game?

If you didn’t have too much gold in-game (say you have 100G) is there anything preventing you from doing the things you love about this game?

Pretty much everything else. Just the TP bugs me off. Not everybody knows how economics work thus giving the people who do an advantage over other players.
It’s like – get rich or die trying. I know how to play the TP but this is not my game and I refuse to play that way. But why should I and many others feel kittened up by people who does exactly the opposite by screwing up with the prices. This ain’t fun – IN A GAME.

Well, you didn’t answer my 2nd question though. Is not being rich really killing you? Or preventing you from accessing the areas in the game that you find “fun?”

Like, I totally understand when players don’t like parts of the game. People don’t like dungeons, people don’t like WvW, people don’t like JPs…That’s perfectly fine. Play the way you like, because NOT playing what you don’t like (With the exception of fractals/ascended stuff the past few months, kitten you anet) isn’t preventing you from doing what you like.

Ursan.7846:

Etien.4601:

Ursan.7846:

Etien.4601:

No, but each day this game feels more like playing wallstreetwars2. I finished a degree in economics and this is the last thing I want to do in a game that I love. There has to be regulations. Even trading between players should be in. Every time I click on the BLTC this movie pop up in my mind:

So what do you love about this game?

If you didn’t have too much gold in-game (say you have 100G) is there anything preventing you from doing the things you love about this game?

Pretty much everything else. Just the TP bugs me off. Not everybody knows how economics work thus giving the people who do an advantage over other players.
It’s like – get rich or die trying. I know how to play the TP but this is not my game and I refuse to play that way. But why should I and many others feel kittened up by people who does exactly the opposite by screwing up with the prices. This ain’t fun – IN A GAME.

Well, you didn’t answer my 2nd question though. Is not being rich really killing you? Or preventing you from accessing the areas in the game that you find “fun?”

Like, I totally understand when players don’t like parts of the game. People don’t like dungeons, people don’t like WvW, people don’t like JPs…That’s perfectly fine. Play the way you like, because NOT playing what you don’t like (With the exception of fractals/ascended stuff the past few months, kitten you anet) isn’t preventing you from doing what you like.

Ofc it’s killing me. For example after the karka event I’m busting my kitten off to save money to get a precursor in a orderly fashion way. I am casual player. Since November, so far I got like 80% of the items needed to make a legendary. But everytime I get close to buying it from the TP (because throwing down like 1500+ greatswords in the mystic toilet didn’t do the job, neither the karka chest), someone kittenes up the prices.
All I do now is leveling alts, playing with random ppl, things like that. WvW is not my thing neither is PvP. Fractals is beyond grindish (thx for the laurels btw).
I enjoy playing with others, and love playing for the high end stuff. Fixing Orr was a great move, now why not stop this market craziness, or a least tweak it a bit.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

Edit: Dan, that is kinda my point, I feel allowing access to that info outside of game is a mistake.

Ah, yes, I understand your point and I kinda agree with it… But it is the way it is, for it to be shut down from us would require major overhauls and I don’t believe they’re even thinking about them.

It would be fair if EVERYONE except developers would be shut down from it, but since there are already tons of apps (might I say there’s even one who asks for a sub-fee and from what I heard really gave the users a MAJOR advantage), we just have to deal with it.

John Smith.4610:

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

John Smith.4610:

You’re saying you prefer market failures because it adds a sense of opportunity?

In a way that is exactly what im saying, a healthy game market should in my opinion have a sense of opportunity, I rarely get that feeling at all in the current market, even when I do find a item with high return rates, it always ends up as a boring 1cp up pricing war.

Not fun at all.

One example of this is d3, It was a absoluty HORRIBLE game, and the amount of inflation in the ah made it progressivly worse.

But the sense of opportunity was great, It actually felt worthwhile to sit down and watch the prices of items for hours upon hours, actually getting rewarded for learning the actual value and demand of a item, rather then having the game tell you the demand etc.

The current TP works great for high quantity items like crafting mats etc, but for higher value items I don’t like it at all.

Infact chances are precursors would go down naturally in price if players wernt instantly informed that they can get 500g for them trough tp.

That said, I am not a very articulate man, nor am I a econmics wizards, So I am prob not the best person to explain how to do this or come up with how it should be done.

I do how ever know what I like in Mmos after 15+ years of playing them, and being able to get deals is one of the major draws for me, and it is something that has been possible in almost every single mmo up to date, with the exception of gw2.

Gw2 tp just seems to end up as a cold number crunching game to me, and I can’t find the fun in it.

and im gueesing im not the only one.

Edit: Dan, that is kinda my point, I feel allowing access to that info outside of game is a mistake.

I have to make the argument that your deals are coming at the expense of another player. You are arguing against market efficiency because you want to exploit other people easier, I don’t agree that’s a positive goal for the game overall (though I make no judgement about personal goals).

I would hardly consider it exploiting other players, that player would have the same possibility to learn prices as anyone else, not to mention those opportunities would also be open to him.

Point is you should be rewarded for getting accustomed to the values and demand of items, and for how much time you are willing to invest in selling that item.

The current system seems more like a safety net for people who want to sell theyr items at full price in the simple click of a button.

Also unlike the current system, what I propose does not require a specifc ADVANCED skillset, if anything overall it is more fair, as everyone has a shot, instead of just people with a economics degree, or a natural talent.

current system seems heavily in favour of people with overall economics knowledge, that are intrested in mid-long term investments.

If anything I would argue that the average player is already being exploited on a daily basis trough tp by those who know economics.

As for personal goal, my only personal “goal” when it comes to playing this game is having fun.. Currently this game is actively limiting my ability to do so in alot of cases.

I have fun grinding, when I get properly rewarded for it, I am not.
I have fun playing the Auction House, When it dosnt require 5 hours of number crunching to make a 5% profit.
I have fun doing endgame, when it feels like im progressing, also very limited.

Deal hunting isnt a must for me to enjoy Trading post, but the current system dosnt have much opportunity for “fun”, if anything its more like having a second job.

Don’t get me wrong, I still enjoy gw2 overall, however it could be ALOT better.

If vendors offered more gold for your items, that would only raise inflation, as everyone would have more gold.

Across the board, everyone would have more gold, so once the prices stabilize again, it’ll be the same as it is now, just with bigger numbers.

I believe, though, that vendors across the world could use some randomness:
- Offering limited stocks of an item at a cheaper price once a week or a month (e.g.: 10 Half-price apples in bulk, make an event and NPC sells 2 obsidian shards at 33% off karma).
- Vendors looking for a certain item, and paying more or offering a certain item in exchange for them. They could even be looking for junk and all, as a nod to GW1’s collectors and Nicholas.
That’ll encourage people to check vendors, and look for sales and deals. Being informed, sharing with other players which vendors are looking for what or offering what.
Putting some ‘thrill’ and ‘unknown’ into the vendors, and rewarding those that are more into exploration and commerce, instead just having them selling planks and rocks, or an unlimited amount of some item that will get eventually nerfed because people can get stacks for it and exploit them.
And since it’ll be limited stocks and limited demand, no one could exploit such a system.

Wait. I think I made a suggestion about that…

Here it is:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/PvE-non-standard-Vendor-improvements

John Smith.4610:

I have to make the argument that your deals are coming at the expense of another player. You are arguing against market efficiency because you want to exploit other people easier, I don’t agree that’s a positive goal for the game overall (though I make no judgement about personal goals).

Sadly i have to agree, “money making mechanics” in this game are not fun.
After over 1000 hours of playtime i get the impression that a lot of the things they put in as a longterm goal are only achievable in an acceptable timeframe if you “play” the tp.

To the comment that john made, how is the current system any differnet in this regard?
Very Rich people either exploited some game mechanics, or by taking money from other players directly via trading post.

I made this statement on another thread already, but am happy to say it here again.
Just look at the cost of an infused backpack for instance.
This will set you back a “lousy” 250 ectos, something only for the rich kids!
Obviously nobody calculated this through, how much time one needs to invest, without the tp, to collect a whole stack of these.

I see the trading post as a way to get rid of some stuff i have no need for and in exchange get some stuff others dont need, but are usefull for me.
This is the way, at least in my humble opinion, the system should work.
By no means should someone be “forced” to stay in LA multiple hours every session, just to get some nicer things in this game.

The whole inflation argument would be invalid, if we didnt need to rely on the tp so heavily.
What does it matter really, if there are fixed prices for a lot more items?
Why are there hundreds of items only available through trading and nowhere else?

Just as a sidenote:
I know how to make money on the tp, but i dont enjoy it and i like to play the real game instead.
I dont want to have everything handed to me on a silver platter either, just make it a more constant goal im working towards (for example by adding more stuff as fixed recipes and from npc vendors).

Really, what I’m reading here is the fact that you can’t control the market as someone will just undercut you by 1c and stops you. Really, that system is ALL that stops the economy from being completely controlled by market manipulators and everything costing 50 times more. It is a game of ‘go big or go home’. You are dealing with a SHARED market that taps hundreds of thousands of people – unless your hand is big enough to control a stock from that many sources (and no one person’s is, but there are many who do what you’re trying to do, so it happens), all that is going to happen is your dip and then get undercut if you don’t sell it fast enough. It also is a bit more complex with the “buy” requests.

Lucky for you, there is an end game triangle: by controlling precursors, you also control rare/exotic weapon prices (as flipping that dusk from 500 to 700 will encourage enough players to buy out weapons to mystic flush to try to get a piece of that pie). By controlling weapon prices, you lower an ecto source, and drive that price up. With Ectos up, armor goes up. So someone buys that weapon? 100G profit. Mean time, you’re building margins for everything else that you bought low and can now know you’ll be able to sell higher on. I’ve watched prices double on ectos/weapons/armor with the flipping of precursors, and I don’t think that’s natural inflation.

So your reply starts with saying how you cannot fully manipulate the current system, then goes on to say how I should manipulate the current system, and take advantage of the fact that other people are manipulating it.

color me confused..

You seem to think the average mmo AH can be completly controlled by market manipulation, not true, sure certain items will be controlled, but this is already the case with this system also.. I don’t see the relevance.

Also im not saying the TP needs to be reworked, 2 things ive asked for:

A) Ability to trade item for gold player to player, safely.
B) Make it impossible to access TP info outside of the game, (stuff like gw2spidy etc)

Like I said before, I like gw2spidy, but I feel it has a overall negative impact on the tp as it removes the ability to catch deals.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

1. Ability to trade item for gold player to player, safely.
2. Make it impossible to access TP info outside of the game, (stuff like gw2spidy etc)

1. Not going to happen. No one would trade on the TP because of the 15% fee. That would result in Lion’s Arch being filled with WTS/WTB stuff and even more people than there are currently.
2. This one I can agree on.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

John Smith.4610:

I have to make the argument that your deals are coming at the expense of another player. You are arguing against market efficiency because you want to exploit other people easier, I don’t agree that’s a positive goal for the game overall (though I make no judgement about personal goals).

I would hardly consider it exploiting other players, that player would have the same possibility to learn prices as anyone else, not to mention those opportunities would also be open to him.

You want to use someone for your own personal gain. That is the definition of exploiting someone.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

John Smith.4610:

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

John Smith.4610:

You’re saying you prefer market failures because it adds a sense of opportunity?

In a way that is exactly what im saying, a healthy game market should in my opinion have a sense of opportunity, I rarely get that feeling at all in the current market, even when I do find a item with high return rates, it always ends up as a boring 1cp up pricing war.

Not fun at all.

One example of this is d3, It was a absoluty HORRIBLE game, and the amount of inflation in the ah made it progressivly worse.

But the sense of opportunity was great, It actually felt worthwhile to sit down and watch the prices of items for hours upon hours, actually getting rewarded for learning the actual value and demand of a item, rather then having the game tell you the demand etc.

The current TP works great for high quantity items like crafting mats etc, but for higher value items I don’t like it at all.

Infact chances are precursors would go down naturally in price if players wernt instantly informed that they can get 500g for them trough tp.

That said, I am not a very articulate man, nor am I a econmics wizards, So I am prob not the best person to explain how to do this or come up with how it should be done.

I do how ever know what I like in Mmos after 15+ years of playing them, and being able to get deals is one of the major draws for me, and it is something that has been possible in almost every single mmo up to date, with the exception of gw2.

Gw2 tp just seems to end up as a cold number crunching game to me, and I can’t find the fun in it.

and im gueesing im not the only one.

Edit: Dan, that is kinda my point, I feel allowing access to that info outside of game is a mistake.

I have to make the argument that your deals are coming at the expense of another player. You are arguing against market efficiency because you want to exploit other people easier, I don’t agree that’s a positive goal for the game overall (though I make no judgement about personal goals).

I would hardly consider it exploiting other players, that player would have the same possibility to learn prices as anyone else, not to mention those opportunities would also be open to him.

Point is you should be rewarded for getting accustomed to the values and demand of items, and for how much time you are willing to invest in selling that item.

The current system seems more like a safety net for people who want to sell theyr items at full price in the simple click of a button.

Also unlike the current system, what I propose does not require a specifc ADVANCED skillset, if anything overall it is more fair, as everyone has a shot, instead of just people with a economics degree, or a natural talent.

current system seems heavily in favour of people with overall economics knowledge, that are intrested in mid-long term investments.

If anything I would argue that the average player is already being exploited on a daily basis trough tp by those who know economics.

As for personal goal, my only personal “goal” when it comes to playing this game is having fun.. Currently this game is actively limiting my ability to do so in alot of cases.

I have fun grinding, when I get properly rewarded for it, I am not.
I have fun playing the Auction House, When it dosnt require 5 hours of number crunching to make a 5% profit.
I have fun doing endgame, when it feels like im progressing, also very limited.

Deal hunting isnt a must for me to enjoy Trading post, but the current system dosnt have much opportunity for “fun”, if anything its more like having a second job.

Don’t get me wrong, I still enjoy gw2 overall, however it could be ALOT better.

I have to disagree with you. While i do not hold any current economics degreee and i believe i have no natural talent to these sort of things. Ive been able to earn roughly 200-300g on tp alone. This is not a huge amount and by no means boastable but im just saying there is plenty of potential. On the other hand, what you say feels more like borderline scamming and you re just unhappy that gw has these superiors systems
which protect players. Like agents who make sure you re getting the best price.

John Smith.4610:

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

John Smith.4610:

You’re saying you prefer market failures because it adds a sense of opportunity?

In a way that is exactly what im saying, a healthy game market should in my opinion have a sense of opportunity, I rarely get that feeling at all in the current market, even when I do find a item with high return rates, it always ends up as a boring 1cp up pricing war.

Not fun at all.

One example of this is d3, It was a absoluty HORRIBLE game, and the amount of inflation in the ah made it progressivly worse.

But the sense of opportunity was great, It actually felt worthwhile to sit down and watch the prices of items for hours upon hours, actually getting rewarded for learning the actual value and demand of a item, rather then having the game tell you the demand etc.

The current TP works great for high quantity items like crafting mats etc, but for higher value items I don’t like it at all.

Infact chances are precursors would go down naturally in price if players wernt instantly informed that they can get 500g for them trough tp.

That said, I am not a very articulate man, nor am I a econmics wizards, So I am prob not the best person to explain how to do this or come up with how it should be done.

I do how ever know what I like in Mmos after 15+ years of playing them, and being able to get deals is one of the major draws for me, and it is something that has been possible in almost every single mmo up to date, with the exception of gw2.

Gw2 tp just seems to end up as a cold number crunching game to me, and I can’t find the fun in it.

and im gueesing im not the only one.

Edit: Dan, that is kinda my point, I feel allowing access to that info outside of game is a mistake.

I have to make the argument that your deals are coming at the expense of another player. You are arguing against market efficiency because you want to exploit other people easier, I don’t agree that’s a positive goal for the game overall (though I make no judgement about personal goals).

From my perspective there’s something very big and very wrong with the economy, vendor prices, market prices, drop rates, crafting materials, etc.

Food that’s useful might cost 5copper because it’s a skillup recipe one level range, and the same type/stat of food might cost 15silver the next level range (like 5-10 levels higher) because it’s now using rare less-available materials.

Why do my weapons cost as much as a rune/sigil that adds an intestinal amount of power to my weapon?

Big huge hammer of face smashing! Smashes faces! Want to add a tiny bit of power to it? Go pay x20 the cost of the hammer for a tiny little thingy to insert! lol

The comparison to WoW, while tired and overplayed, is apt. In WoW you would never see an enchant for a weapon cost x20 the price of the weapon. That’s just a random example off the top of my head…

Everything sells for vendor prices… it really trivializes the acquisition of, well, -anything- at all, when you know 9/10 times it vendors for as much as you can AH it for. And with your stupid bot throttling nonsense where I get an “error” if I try to sell too much too fast, it’d actually be a profitability increase to just vendor anything that vendors for anywhere near its market price.

Your market is saturated with too many goods and not enough gold. Monsters and quests need to give less items and more gold. You have too many goldsinks and not enough gold-generating activities.

I’m not even close to a master of economy but I fully understand what the OP is saying.
I always had fun playing a game to achieve and/or farm an item, knowing I would have near X amount of gold for it and prices would rarely change too much unless something new in the game changed it. If someone was selling an item too low, than it’s because that person didn’t care about the real price of the items he/she sells and, as such, you cannot call it an exploit since it’s lack of interest of that person in knowing the true value of the things it owns. It’s the player responsibility to search the value of things he holds if he wants to profit with them and if has no interest in knowing that, than the other player has no obligation of telling otherwise because it’s a good deal. The buyer is not using the seller, the seller just didn’t cared to know.

But right now, that’s completelly broken in this game.
Everything you want sell to other players is controlled by the game and by those that know how to control it. You will never know the value of something, if the value itself is something many players who know economycs are controling right now. Those who understand economycs and are watching the TP closely are always saying the same things: you won’t have good deals from it unless you “play the TP game”, or you’re lucky, and for that you have to know what you’re doing. Pick an item and control it’s value.
This is the worst kind of exploiting because you are not only using someone for your own personal gain, you’re using EVERYONE in the game who’s selling the item you’re controlling.
And they were’nt clueless about the item’s worth, they just got “played”.

Right now, this TP system seems more like the Big Brother of economy, which has some “friends” who know how to “play the game” and the others, most common players, who are completelly exploited by those “friends” while beeing controlled by the Big Brother, because they can’t do nothing about it unless they learn how to play the game too.
And they don’t want to learn that, because it’s NOT FUN!

Point is you should be rewarded for getting accustomed to the values and demand of items, and for how much time you are willing to invest in selling that item.

Playing the markets should not be a rewarding experience. The markets should be there so that you can get good value for the items you acquire while playing the game, and so that you can get access to items you weren’t lucky enough to find directly. It should not be there for people to spend much of their time at, and should not reward those behaviors, as doing so effectively punishes everyone else, the vast majority of players. In an ideal economy, the items that most people get often would sell for as high as possible, while the items that most people rarely get would cost as little as possible to acquire (though of course one would expect the latter to still cost more than the former, the prices should be closer than in the current economy).

You should never be able to make more in a given hour sitting in Lion’s Arch and buying and selling items at the TP than you can make spending that same time running a dungeon or running open world events. Playing the game should be the most financially rewarding method in the game, not playing the markets. If you want to play the markets, try an online game called “eTrade” and leave the prices of goods in Tyria alone.

If vendors offered more gold for your items, that would only raise inflation, as everyone would have more gold.

Across the board, everyone would have more gold, so once the prices stabilize again, it’ll be the same as it is now, just with bigger numbers.

Maybe, but not that bad. There probably would be a level of inflation overall, but it would be one that would benefit the average player more than the market player, since it would give them a higher floor on the goods they were trying to sell, while the goods that most players want to buy (such as Precursors and gold+ gear) would not be significantly effected. It would essentially be like raising the minimum wage, yes, that means that people already making high salaries might make slightly more than they currently do, but the biggest relative impact would be felt at the bottom.

Lafiel.9372:

I have to disagree with you. While i do not hold any current economics degreee and i believe i have no natural talent to these sort of things. Ive been able to earn roughly 200-300g on tp alone. This is not a huge amount and by no means boastable but im just saying there is plenty of potential. On the other hand, what you say feels more like borderland scamming and you re just unhappy that gw has these superiors systems
which protect players. Like agents who make sure you re getting the best price.

Playing the TP works pretty well. Flipping is a very basic tactic. It’s absolutely easy to do, takes 15 minutes a day, and you can make a decent amount of gold to supplement your income. I’m just starting out and I made 15g in the last 5 days alone – in addition to my income from farming/dungeons etc. I didn’t realize how easy it actually was until I actually stopped spending all my gold and making an effort to play the tp. I suspect most other players critical of the tp would be of the same opinion, if they’d only make an effort.

Also, whoever above me said “mystic toilet”, that comment made my lmfao, good stuff.

Really? scamming? Its neither deceptive or fraudlent, for it to be, I would have to activly influence the sellers idea of the price, which was never something I even hinted to in this post.. Its not scamming, or “borderland” scamming as you call it.

As for this “superior” system that protect players, really? how does it protect players? for it to protect players stuff like spidy would have to be built into the game so you couldnt possibly be wrong about the prices you sold at.

As for exploiting players, what makes you think this is not happening already? just in a slightly diffrent way, more subtle if you like, precursors is a perfect example of sellers exploiting the players “need” for a item.

Infact you could argue that trading by nature is all about exploiting others people needs, wants, lack of time, etcetc

Edit: Aztex, good points.

and Ohoni, I might agree with you except fact is you CAN make more money sitting in lion arch playing the tp, IF you got a very specific skillset, this limits the general populations ability to profit, while greatly rewarding those with that skillset.

Infact you could say that the current system plays right into the hands of shady characters, if you catch my drift.

I would like nothing more then being able to play the game to make a profit, but as it is its just not logical, the amount of gold you can make from farming is so limited due to the heavy DR or RNG that if you want to get ANYWHERE in the game, TP is THE option.

silvermember.8941:

The people that say silly stuff like these usually say it for 2 reasons.
1. They lack understanding real economies.

I graduated from a top 10 econ program, understood the subject better in my sleep than most of the people nosing the grindstone, and I say this game has a bad economy.

2. They are so used to all the crappy game economies that when they see one that is more similar to a real one (not to the extent of EvE). That they complain.

Similar to a real one? Must.. restrain.. laughter.

here are some examples from a real economy:

when aluminum becomes too expensive, auto manufacturers can swap to steel.
Try swapping a crystalline lodestone for a charged one and see how far that gets you.

When the price of oil skyrockets, everyone goes out drilling for more. The price of precursors is rocketing out of control, but the horrific drop rate makes volunteering to add to that supply a ludicrous option.

When you plant crops, you will, barring a horrific natural disaster or outright negligence, be able to reap what you sow. If you go to farm in GW2 you get a backpack full of porous bones.

They say this is to discourage botting, but bots don’t get tired or bored, humans do.

This, is a bad economy. So bad it, along with ANet’s insistence on swinging and missing wildly with the nerf club before even making the trait lines of half the professions in the game have the novel concept of “synergy”, discourages me from logging on.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

As for this “superior” system that protect players, really? how does it protect players? for it to protect players stuff like spidy would have to be built into the game so you couldnt possibly be wrong about the prices you sold at.

Just like to point out that because of the sheer volume of trades that occur on the global trading post (and the fact that the BLT shows you the highest buy order/lowest sell order) you’ll be always paying around the market price for most commodities. The price you’re paying? Probably thousands of others are paying. That’s fair.

Whether that applies to precursors though, is a debate I really don’t care to get into. But I still do want to point out that prices of a few select luxury items isn’t indicative of the overall state of the economy as a whole.

Well like I said earlier in the thread, I belive the current system is fine for high quantity items, the problem is low quantity items.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

Well like I said earlier in the thread, I belive the current system is fine for high quantity items, the problem is low quantity items.

Well, again, that’s debatable. We only know that around 9 Dawns? (I think?) and 7 Dusks? Moves in one day. That’s quite a bit of the two most coveted precursors being bought/sold. I lean towards thinking that this is a pretty high volume. And John Smith basically said there’s many players who earn money “legitly” who can afford a precursor so these people actually use these precursors for their legendaries.

So in the end, I lean towards the belief that the price is richly deserved for their current rarity. And I just started a debate “I don’t care to get into.” I’m pretty stupid, sigh.

Important to remeber this is across all the servers, which makes it a considerably lower number, and the big question how many of those are just getting passed from person to person?

Also he said many players are earning them without using trading post, which is extremly unlikely, anyone that can afford a 500g precursor,most likely either used trading post at some point for the majority of the g, farmed before dr, bought a low value precursor or profitted big of black lion chests, chocolate, or halloween skins.

For someone to earn it without using trading post now it would at the very least take 2 months..

So I am not saying no one did it.. but many? dosnt seem likely at all.

Can’t help but feel that im getting a bit off track here :p

By “legitly” I take as one of three things…..1) trading on tp…. 2)grinding orr…….3)grinding cof p1 or ta onyx farm?

plasmacutter.2709:

here are some examples from a real economy:

when aluminum becomes too expensive, auto manufacturers can swap to steel.
Try swapping a crystalline lodestone for a charged one and see how far that gets you.

Comparing apples and oranges to suit your fancy. I’m sure in your top 10 economics program you learned that not all goods can be substituted.

plasmacutter.2709:

When the price of oil skyrockets, everyone goes out drilling for more. The price of precursors is rocketing out of control, but the horrific drop rate makes volunteering to add to that supply a ludicrous option.

When the price of oil skyrockets, oil companies go out drilling for more. People like you and me just sit back and curse the high prices. You’re attempting to argue that everyone should have ready or otherwise equal access to the most expensive/valuable commodity in the game by comparing it to a commodity that the vast majority of people have absolutely no control over, other than what they choose to buy (which collectively is a lot of power, but exactly equal to the power that players have over the price of precursors). Honestly I thought we were done arguing about precursor inflation. When will the inflation end? When players stop buying the product. Again, with the credentials you’re boasting, this shouldn’t be that foreign.

plasmacutter.2709:

When you plant crops, you will, barring a horrific natural disaster or outright negligence, be able to reap what you sow. If you go to farm in GW2 you get a backpack full of porous bones.

How much do you know about farming? Crops can be greatly impacted by the slightest bad weather, and it happens quite frequently. You’re acting like it’s a rare occurance for a farmer to make anything other than the absolute maximum amount of profit for his effort. If your example were a reflection of reality, we’d have a LOT more farmers.

plasmacutter.2709:

They say this is to discourage botting, but bots don’t get tired or bored, humans do.

They have said porous bones drop to discourage botting?

plasmacutter.2709:

This, is a bad economy.

Not convinced, sorry. It seems like people complaining just want everything easy.

The point I was making is simple a good flowing economy makes people like me want to play. Where a bad economy makes me not want to.

Guild Wars 2 is competing against many other MMO’s. It makes more sense to make the players/ people paying bills happy. I know me and my wife bought Every Guild Wars title out there, but this is the last. We loved the Guild Wars 1 Necro. The Necro wasn’t that great this time around. Guild Wars 1 economy sucked, but was fine at the time.

However, we have since played other games. I have played some good and some very bad.

I know it sounds strange, but it is fun as a real poor person to have money even if not real. Yet, it isn’t that fun to feel as broke as in real life.

Also, if you want to go real world model here. Detroit has more people leaving the coming do to a really bad economy. I know my entire guild along with friends and my wife have all stopped playing the game simply do to the economy. It plays into the fun. We like to craft, but not craft to lose money. It costs so much just to craft then you put it in the TP for -2g because no one will buy it.

I on the other hand say would make weapons years after WoW came out. I was still selling mid grade swords and axes for a profit. A profit isn’t a loss.

It seems you lose at every angle when it comes to gold in game aside just buying it with gems.

I had done better then my wife, but I really did a lot of mining and tree cutting. Which seems one of few ways to make money on a consistent basis.

We will not be buying any expansions since it isn’t fun. We will likely buy games coming out that show themselves as being fun. If however say Guild Wars 2 turned around and started being better with a decent economy. Then I would be fine with that. I still play here and there, but my wife refuses to play. Heck, I have offered her 3g to play. However, that is a days earnings. So it in turn is decreasing what fun it is to play the game. I at one time wanted to be a person to unlock all the dye colors and all the stuff with only buying a small amount of gems to exchange for gold.

I see some people don’t like what I have to say, but I am not on any band wagon. I like to ride on my own. I think for myself. Yet, I do see tons of people and known even more people that have stopped and won’t play for a lot of reasons. The reason that tops them all is the economy.

Also, I would like to add. Do you think there would be any businesses if they could only at most make say 5% off something they made? Would Anet make and give GW2 for only a 5% profit?

For all the time you put into the game to get what you do. The payoff is so minor in comparison to many other games.

The point of a game is to be fun. If you want realism. Then you can take away the magic. Small little girls can’t wield huge weapons. Cat people don’t real. People don’t really turn into animals and mice like creatures don’t invent most of our tech.

So what is the point of comparing to the real world? We all did get a RPG right? I make a noble, but I am poor as the street rat that I made up. So if you want to talk of realism. This really is the wrong game.

Also, I am sorry I was at work. I wasn’t expecting this to take hold.

Edit button is your friend

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

Also he said many players are earning them without using trading post, which is extremly unlikely, anyone that can afford a 500g precursor,most likely either used trading post at some point for the majority of the g, farmed before dr, bought a low value precursor or profitted big of black lion chests, chocolate, or halloween skins.

For someone to earn it without using trading post now it would at the very least take 2 months..

So I am not saying no one did it.. but many? dosnt seem likely at all.

Well of course. I don’t think any of us will truly know this (Except John Smith, which is why I defer to him.) So whether you learn towards one side or other will come down to personal opinion, and hence is a subject I really don’t care to debate (too late now. Bah, getting out while I can!)