Guild Wars 2

The ley line weapons are decent skins that I’m sure many people would buy outright.

As they are now, RNG weapons are really just a horrible attempt at monetization.

Currently the skins are around 50g each. Only taking 7.5g out of the economy when they’re sold. (with the 15% tax)

By comparison:
Kasmeer’s staff skin was 600 Gems.

Assuming 13g to buy 100 Gems, each skin would take 78g out of the economy (thus providing a very nice gold sink for people with loads of gold.)

That’s 10x more gold taken out of the economy PER SKIN.

Conversely, it would also encourage sensible people to actually buy Gems. (Any reasonable person should acknowledge that Black Lion Keys are a waste of cash.)

Currently, you can (on a good day) get 10g per 100 Gems. That’s just 500 Gems (or $6) per skin. (Less total cash in ANet’s pocket than simply selling the skins at 600 Gems each.)

TL;DR:
BLC drop rates are pathetic (like real-life gambling)
The game’s economy and ArenaNet’s coffers would be better served by simply selling skins.

Minos.5168:

TL;DR: BLC drop rates are pathetic (like real-life gambling)
The game’s economy and ArenaNet’s coffers would be better served by simply selling skins.

The goal is to get people to end up spending 20-40 dollars on one black lion weapon skin.

No one in their right mind would pay that much upfront, but when you obfuscate the cost behind all the hoops you have to jump through to get the black lion claim ticket, people don’t realize it and keep buying those keys.

Buy Gems – Buy Black Lion Keys – Open Black Lion Chests – Get Black Lion Ticket Scrap (Maybe)

Repeat until you have 10 scraps – Trade in scraps for a Black Lion Claim Ticket – Finally get a weapon skin.

Most of the loot from the Black Lion chests are garbage and the scrap to ticket shenanigans combined with the “Back for 2 weeks only!” garbage with the Permanent Hair Style Contract only serves to highlight that the gem store is a cash grab.

It’s a shame it went this route to be honest. It leaves some players who want to support the game without a viable avenue to do so.

AlphaNeonic.1925:

The goal is to get people to end up spending 20-40 dollars on one black lion weapon skin.

No one in their right mind would pay that much upfront, but when you obfuscate the cost behind all the hoops you have to jump through to get the black lion claim ticket, people don’t realize it and keep buying those keys.

Exactly. They’re basically tricking people into spending more money. (Like casinos, etc.)
I will note, Apple and Google have come under scrutiny for apps that do this very thing.

AlphaNeonic.1925:

It’s a shame it went this route to be honest. It leaves some players who want to support the game without a viable avenue to do so.

Agreed. I gladly bought $50 worth of Gems during the “Scruffy mini & Quaggan backpack” promotion to show my appreciation for the final parts of LS1.

Unfortunately, for me currently… There’s not much that I want to buy with Gems.

It’s sad, because Gem purchases benefit the game in multiple ways.
Gold to Gem purchases benefit the economy by way of a gold sink.
Cash to Gem purchases obviously benefit ArenaNet by way of actual cashflow.

Funny how the OP completely ignored all the revenue that Anet gets from people buying gems to buy keys.

If you look at this like a sub based mmo players would spend $10 a month on the game. If player only buy gems it should take 2-4month to get that skin. The new black lion skins come out every 2 months or so. You do not have to update your outfit to play the game.

It is impossible determine how much money A-net is making from any gemstore item without any data. If you enjoy the game you buy from some items from the gemstore to support the game every now and then. A-net wants to make a good game and make money from doing so.

Ulion.5476:

If you look at this like a sub based mmo players would spend $10 a month on the game. If player only buy gems it should take 2-4month to get that skin. The new black lion skins come out every 2 months or so. You do not have to update your outfit to play the game.

It is impossible determine how much money A-net is making from any gemstore item without any data. If you enjoy the game you buy from some items from the gemstore to support the game every now and then. A-net wants to make a good game and make money from doing so.

I don’t think any of us have a problem with Anet making money.

The problem I have is that they’re being shady about how they’re going about it. Using gems to get keys to get scraps to get tickets to get a skin? Come on, there’s no reason to go through that many steps except to deceive the customer into spending more money on an item than they would if they knew the actual cost.

Instead of selling skins to the masses at 2-4 bucks a piece they’d rather gouge the rich and the ignorant by selling them at exorbitant prices.

You’re right. We don’t have to buy outfits to play the game. Anet does have to make money to run it though. For many of us, the options to give them that money are rapidly vanishing.

how is the scraps —> tickets route shady in any way?

if ANET simply decreased the drop rate of scraps by 10 (10 scraps per ticket), people would be up in arms because ‘the droprate is too low.’

as you acknowledge, NOTHING offered by the BLC is needed to play. so if the idea of scraps is that detestable to you, just buy skins with gold.

and if you do like to support ANET with cash, just buy gems. Then convert it to gold and get whatever you want.

additional thought- the BLC is a gamble. and it has certain super duper silly rare rewards, which are exclusive (perm contracts comes to mind). some people are willing to gamble for them. anyone who is in earnest buying BL keys to earn BL tickets is being really inefficient, as they could just buy skins @ 50-70g when they come out.

froacus.6892:

how is the scraps —> tickets route shady in any way?

if ANET simply decreased the drop rate of scraps by 10 (10 scraps per ticket), people would be up in arms because ‘the droprate is too low.’

as you acknowledge, NOTHING offered by the BLC is needed to play. so if the idea of scraps is that detestable to you, just buy skins with gold.

and if you do like to support ANET with cash, just buy gems. Then convert it to gold and get whatever you want.

additional thought- the BLC is a gamble. and it has certain super duper silly rare rewards, which are exclusive (perm contracts comes to mind). some people are willing to gamble for them. anyone who is in earnest buying BL keys to earn BL tickets is being really inefficient, as they could just buy skins @ 50-70g when they come out.

The claim tickets are shady because their only purpose is hide the potential cost of the skin. If ArenaNet put one of the Ley Line skins on the Gem Store for 1600 gems, people would laugh at the outrageous price. That’s exactly what is happening with the ticket scraps though.

Mind you, this is the same Gem Store that sold a SINGLE RED DYE for 250 gems.

Yes you could (and definitely should) buy the skins with gems to gold if you want one that badly, but that’s besides the point. Tactics like this burn the good will of people that might spend money on the game and make them think twice about making any future purchases.

i see what you’re saying about obscuring the cost, but i have to disagree. mainly for two reasons, 1) you have a shot at other stuff besides scraps/ BL tickets, and 2) there are other methods of obtaining skins besides BL chests

if you’re also saying that some really questionable items are for sale in the gem store for silly prices, I obviously agree.

also consider this- IF Anet just put ley line skins in the gem store for whatever (say 1500 gems per), no one would buy them. this includes people who do want them. we actually have greater supply and ability to obtain BL skins (as a community) than we otherwise would. Im not much of a BL chest gambler, but I certainly appreciate those who are, and who then sell me new skins for cheap

Wow, this is a completely new subject that has never been discussed before. Anet’s parent company is publicly traded and publishes its financial records quarterly. Thus we can see how Anet’s terrible business practices have lead to nearly two years of tossing money into a black hole and the entire company is days away from bankruptcy. I only hope that those with the authority to make decisions at the company see your insightful posts in time to reverse their course and begin making a profit.

tolunart.2095:

Wow, this is a completely new subject that has never been discussed before. Anet’s parent company is publicly traded and publishes its financial records quarterly. Thus we can see how Anet’s terrible business practices have lead to nearly two years of tossing money into a black hole and the entire company is days away from bankruptcy. I only hope that those with the authority to make decisions at the company see your insightful posts in time to reverse their course and begin making a profit.

:) sarcasm

but seriously, it has been discussed before, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be discussed again.

Minos.5168:

The ley line weapons are decent skins that I’m sure many people would buy outright.

As they are now, RNG weapons are really just a horrible attempt at monetization.

Currently the skins are around 50g each. Only taking 7.5g out of the economy when they’re sold. (with the 15% tax)

By comparison:
Kasmeer’s staff skin was 600 Gems.

Assuming 13g to buy 100 Gems, each skin would take 78g out of the economy (thus providing a very nice gold sink for people with loads of gold.)

That’s 10x more gold taken out of the economy PER SKIN.

Conversely, it would also encourage sensible people to actually buy Gems. (Any reasonable person should acknowledge that Black Lion Keys are a waste of cash.)

Currently, you can (on a good day) get 10g per 100 Gems. That’s just 500 Gems (or $6) per skin. (Less total cash in ANet’s pocket than simply selling the skins at 600 Gems each.)

TL;DR:
BLC drop rates are pathetic (like real-life gambling)
The game’s economy and ArenaNet’s coffers would be better served by simply selling skins.

You do realize the gem exchange also supply gold to the economy.

So in order for 1 person to spend 78 gold to buy 600 gems. There is also another person selling 600 gems and induce 56 gold to the economy.

Obviously the tax rate is larger. And some of what I said probably isn’t entirely true (since Anet never says for ever 1 gem bought, there is 1 gem sold in the gem exchange. But the gem exchange also supply gold to the economy.

What is there to discuss?

Companies tend to put some time and money into researching the best ways to sell their products.

Anet’s current way of running the gem store produces the best results (from their point of view).

OP thinks that they should be willing to sell him the same product for much less money.

This is not going to happen.

Is there really anything to discuss?

Idk you seem to have enough interest to discuss not discussing it. Why not let those that want to discuss it do so without raining on their parade at every turn?

I don’t think the BLC is too terrible. There are some half decent item, which when you get you might be happy… Like I got a name change contract, or makeover kit that will cost me lot of money if I buy with gems.

That being said, if you dont’ like the BLC, just use real gold to buy your skin. I don’t know what the problem is.

AlphaNeonic.1925:

I don’t think any of us have a problem with Anet making money.

The problem I have is that they’re being shady about how they’re going about it.

If it’s shady to you, the answer is to simply understand what you get for a key. The description for what the BL key does and what you can get from chests is very clear. Problem solved.

Obtena.7952:

AlphaNeonic.1925:

I don’t think any of us have a problem with Anet making money.

The problem I have is that they’re being shady about how they’re going about it.

If it’s shady to you, the answer is to simply understand what you get for a key. The description for what the BL key does and what you can get from chests is very clear. Problem solved.

I understand how the black lion chests work. That’s why I don’t purchase black lion chest keys. The problem isn’t solved though. The “problem” is a player wants to support the game but that player feels like the gem shop is unfairly priced and can see through the lottery box price bleeding done by Anet.

If I were Anet, I’d want to hear why people are displeased with the offerings and come up with things that both make money and make players happy.

laokoko.7403:

Minos.5168:

The ley line weapons are decent skins that I’m sure many people would buy outright.

As they are now, RNG weapons are really just a horrible attempt at monetization.

Currently the skins are around 50g each. Only taking 7.5g out of the economy when they’re sold. (with the 15% tax)

By comparison:
Kasmeer’s staff skin was 600 Gems.

Assuming 13g to buy 100 Gems, each skin would take 78g out of the economy (thus providing a very nice gold sink for people with loads of gold.)

That’s 10x more gold taken out of the economy PER SKIN.

Conversely, it would also encourage sensible people to actually buy Gems. (Any reasonable person should acknowledge that Black Lion Keys are a waste of cash.)

Currently, you can (on a good day) get 10g per 100 Gems. That’s just 500 Gems (or $6) per skin. (Less total cash in ANet’s pocket than simply selling the skins at 600 Gems each.)

TL;DR:
BLC drop rates are pathetic (like real-life gambling)
The game’s economy and ArenaNet’s coffers would be better served by simply selling skins.

You do realize the gem exchange also supply gold to the economy.

So in order for 1 person to spend 78 gold to buy 600 gems. There is also another person selling 600 gems and induce 56 gold to the economy.

Obviously the tax rate is larger. And some of what I said probably isn’t entirely true (since Anet never says for ever 1 gem bought, there is 1 gem sold in the gem exchange. But the gem exchange also supply gold to the economy.

yeah this is a key fault in the math, gold to gems is not necessarily a money sink, depends on if they destroy the gold they get via fee, or if they keep it in the pool. At most, its a 30%ish gold sink, but its also possible it is a 0% gold sink.

anyhow, other than that carry on

If on average you get a ticket out of every 20 to 25 chests (1 in 4 or 5 for a scrap, 1 in 40 or 50 for a full ticket) that’s roughly $21 to $26.25 per ticket. Converted that amount of cash bought gems to gold, at this moment, would be 190-235g. There are 174 different skins with a high bid under 190g, 67 above 190g high bid.

All of the Ley Line skins, the one that currently available at 1 ticket, are less than 70g low sell price on the TP. That’s a tad less than $10 worth of gems converted to gold.

AlphaNeonic.1925:

Obtena.7952:

AlphaNeonic.1925:

I don’t think any of us have a problem with Anet making money.

The problem I have is that they’re being shady about how they’re going about it.

If it’s shady to you, the answer is to simply understand what you get for a key. The description for what the BL key does and what you can get from chests is very clear. Problem solved.

I understand how the black lion chests work. That’s why I don’t purchase black lion chest keys. The problem isn’t solved though. The “problem” is a player wants to support the game but that player feels like the gem shop is unfairly priced and can see through the lottery box price bleeding done by Anet.

If I were Anet, I’d want to hear why people are displeased with the offerings and come up with things that both make money and make players happy.

Anet (as well as reasonable people) know they can’t make everyone happy with every gemstore item. This is why you see various things and most of them aren’t even a lottery approach. The ‘problem’ is simply addressed; If someone wants to support Anet but doesn’t want to feel like they are being treated in a shady manner, they can buy ANY of the other items from the gemstore that aren’t some chance to get something. There is no concern here.

People are suckers for gambling.

Anet almost certainly makes more money with the gambling than they would if they sold direct.

The real question you should be asking is whether it’s morally ok to push gambling on to children (the game is rated “Teen”). (Yes, Anet knows that’s what they’re doing… hence the slot machine look of the Black Lion chests.)

Since the BLTC is listed as containing three random items of similar value to the cost of a key, it’s not gambling, it’s a grab bag. Just because you wouldn’t have ever bought most of the stuff you get from a chest doesn’t negate it’s implied value. The fact that by adding much rarer, highly valued items to the list of possible items doesn’t make it gambling either.

Behellagh.1468:

Since the BLTC is listed as containing three random items of similar value to the cost of a key, it’s not gambling, it’s a grab bag. Just because you wouldn’t have ever bought most of the stuff you get from a chest doesn’t negate it’s implied value. The fact that by adding much rarer, highly valued items to the list of possible items doesn’t make it gambling either.

I’d argue that the price of some of the items on the Gem Shop seem to only serve the purpose of making the black lion keys appear to be a good value.

Is anyone spending 150 gems or 12-15 gold on a single boost?

I think the chest would be a more viable option if they contained more chest exclusive/non gem shop goods. Let the items themselves be worth it, not the perceived value from the gem shop.

AlphaNeonic.1925:

Behellagh.1468:

Since the BLTC is listed as containing three random items of similar value to the cost of a key, it’s not gambling, it’s a grab bag. Just because you wouldn’t have ever bought most of the stuff you get from a chest doesn’t negate it’s implied value. The fact that by adding much rarer, highly valued items to the list of possible items doesn’t make it gambling either.

I’d argue that the price of some of the items on the Gem Shop seem to only serve the purpose of making the black lion keys appear to be a good value.

Is anyone spending 150 gems or 12-15 gold on a single boost?

I think the chest would be a more viable option if they contained more chest exclusive/non gem shop goods. Let the items themselves be worth it, not the perceived value from the gem shop.

… so the other items in the gem shop make BL keys look crap. No problem.

AlphaNeonic.1925:

I’d argue that the price of some of the items on the Gem Shop seem to only serve the purpose of making the black lion keys appear to be a good value.

Is anyone spending 150 gems or 12-15 gold on a single boost?

I think the chest would be a more viable option if they contained more chest exclusive/non gem shop goods. Let the items themselves be worth it, not the perceived value from the gem shop.

Cost of gems in gold is never considered. They want you to spend real money on gems and the price is set based on that, never ever the cost in gold.

The purpose of the gold to gem side of the exchange is to fund the gem to gold side of the exchange to provide a legitimate route for buying gold without introducing inflation caused by injecting new gold into the economy.

Behellagh.1468:

AlphaNeonic.1925:

I’d argue that the price of some of the items on the Gem Shop seem to only serve the purpose of making the black lion keys appear to be a good value.

Is anyone spending 150 gems or 12-15 gold on a single boost?

I think the chest would be a more viable option if they contained more chest exclusive/non gem shop goods. Let the items themselves be worth it, not the perceived value from the gem shop.

Cost of gems in gold is never considered. They want you to spend real money on gems and the price is set based on that, never ever the cost in gold.

The purpose of the gold to gem side of the exchange is to fund the gem to gold side of the exchange to provide a legitimate route for buying gold without introducing inflation caused by injecting new gold into the economy.

That’s fine, and it’s good that the exchange exists, but even at the $1.88 that most of the boost cost I can’t see where they would ever be worth it. At least with armor and weapon skins, it’s fair to say that they’re worth what people want to pay for them because the aesthetic value is objective. If someone really likes an armor set and wants to pay $10.00 for it, good for them.

The boosts seem like a waste regardless of what method you use to pay for them. There is no return on the investment.

tolunart.2095:

Wow, this is a completely new subject that has never been discussed before. Anet’s parent company is publicly traded and publishes its financial records quarterly. Thus we can see how Anet’s terrible business practices have lead to nearly two years of tossing money into a black hole and the entire company is days away from bankruptcy. I only hope that those with the authority to make decisions at the company see your insightful posts in time to reverse their course and begin making a profit.

You’re well within your rights to simply not post in threads that don’t interest you.

Here is an example using small numbers to illustrate why the method they currently use is good for generating revenue:

1. Directly selling skins
1a. 100 people buy the skikitten0 each.
1b. Total revenue = $1,000

2. Indirectly selling skins via tickets
2a. 1000 people buy a ticket at $2 each.
2b. Total revenue = $2,000

You make more money selling something very cheap to a LOT of people than you do selling something that costs more to a few people.

That is why Black Lion Keys exist.

mtpelion.4562:

Here is an example using small numbers to illustrate why the method they currently use is good for generating revenue:

1. Directly selling skins
1a. 100 people buy the skikitten0 each.
1b. Total revenue = $1,000

2. Indirectly selling skins via tickets
2a. 1000 people buy a ticket at $2 each.
2b. Total revenue = $2,000

You make more money selling something very cheap to a LOT of people than you do selling something that costs more to a few people.

That is why Black Lion Keys exist.

not really, that model doesnt really represent whats going on. On average it costs more to get a skin via black lion chests, and it gives black lion keys more value. Its made to appeal to those who like to gamble/trouble resisting gambling.

They arent selling anything cheap to a lot of people. It costs 2-3 times as much

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

Here is an example using small numbers to illustrate why the method they currently use is good for generating revenue:

1. Directly selling skins
1a. 100 people buy the skikitten0 each.
1b. Total revenue = $1,000

2. Indirectly selling skins via tickets
2a. 1000 people buy a ticket at $2 each.
2b. Total revenue = $2,000

You make more money selling something very cheap to a LOT of people than you do selling something that costs more to a few people.

That is why Black Lion Keys exist.

not really, that model doesnt really represent whats going on. On average it costs more to get a skin via black lion chests, and it gives black lion keys more value. Its made to appeal to those who like to gamble/trouble resisting gambling.

They arent selling anything cheap to a lot of people. It costs 2-3 times as much

It does represent what is going on, but I did leave out that people are also buying multiple tickets which further increases revenue.

From a business standpoint, it makes a LOT more sense to sell lots of chances at something for a small amount each chance than it does to sell the final product. This is partially because people love to gamble and partially because people are terrible at math.

Behellagh.1468:

The purpose of the gold to gem side of the exchange is to fund the gem to gold side of the exchange to provide a legitimate route for buying gold without introducing inflation caused by injecting new gold into the economy.

Also, the original stated purpose of the conversion system is to provide a trusted (and TOS friendly) alternative to gold sellers.

And, to make it possible to buy gem store items without ever making another dollar investment in this game after purchasing the original box, for those who want to play that way.

No fail here

Minos.5168:

….
BLC drop rates are pathetic….

Ticket Scraps are a 1 in 5 chance….I opened 10 chests last night and got 3 scraps (above average, but far from “pathetic”).

….
(like real-life gambling)….

This just begs for a “Captain Obvious” joke….

……
They arent selling anything cheap to a lot of people. It costs 2-3 times as much

….or nothing but players time (what Anet wants anyway) if they obtain BL keys by other means.

mtpelion.4562:

Here is an example using small numbers to illustrate why the method they currently use is good for generating revenue:

1. Directly selling skins
1a. 100 people buy the skikitten0 each.
1b. Total revenue = $1,000

2. Indirectly selling skins via tickets
2a. 1000 people buy a ticket at $2 each.
2b. Total revenue = $2,000

You make more money selling something very cheap to a LOT of people than you do selling something that costs more to a few people.

That is why Black Lion Keys exist.

I think the math is more like 10 people spend a few hundred dollar buying keys. And most of the skins aren’t even bought with cash.

If the drop rate is so bad, players are to blame for this, why sell black lion weapon so cheap.

laokoko.7403:

mtpelion.4562:

Here is an example using small numbers to illustrate why the method they currently use is good for generating revenue:

1. Directly selling skins
1a. 100 people buy the skikitten0 each.
1b. Total revenue = $1,000

2. Indirectly selling skins via tickets
2a. 1000 people buy a ticket at $2 each.
2b. Total revenue = $2,000

You make more money selling something very cheap to a LOT of people than you do selling something that costs more to a few people.

That is why Black Lion Keys exist.

I think the math is more like 10 people spend a few hundred dollar buying keys. And most of the skins aren’t even bought with cash.

If the drop rate is so bad, players are to blame for this, why sell black lion weapon so cheap.

I’d wager most of the black lion weapon skins being sold on the trading post are from key farmers. They make a new character, run it to the level 10 quest, get black lion key, repeat. The only investment on their end is time.

It offers players a way to get skins cheaper in the short term, but undercuts ArenaNet and makes the skins less valuable.

AlphaNeonic.1925:

laokoko.7403:

mtpelion.4562:

Here is an example using small numbers to illustrate why the method they currently use is good for generating revenue:

1. Directly selling skins
1a. 100 people buy the skikitten0 each.
1b. Total revenue = $1,000

2. Indirectly selling skins via tickets
2a. 1000 people buy a ticket at $2 each.
2b. Total revenue = $2,000

You make more money selling something very cheap to a LOT of people than you do selling something that costs more to a few people.

That is why Black Lion Keys exist.

I think the math is more like 10 people spend a few hundred dollar buying keys. And most of the skins aren’t even bought with cash.

If the drop rate is so bad, players are to blame for this, why sell black lion weapon so cheap.

I’d wager most of the black lion weapon skins being sold on the trading post are from key farmers. They make a new character, run it to the level 10 quest, get black lion key, repeat. The only investment on their end is time.

It offers players a way to get skins cheaper in the short term, but undercuts ArenaNet and makes the skins less valuable.

even through that means they generally undervalue their time. You make very little gold per hour doing it, the only thing you can sell is tickets, special drops, mini’s and dyes, last time i calculated it, you could expect to make around 3ish gold an hour, on average. The special contracts/tonics are so rare that you shouldnt really consider them as possibilities, any more than you figure in getting a 20 gold exotic from killing random champs.

but to be honest its pretty common for players to undervalue their time. Just look at the gem exchange. Not everyone selling their gems makes a lot of gold per hour.

Behellagh.1468:

Since the BLTC is listed as containing three random items of similar value to the cost of a key, it’s not gambling, it’s a grab bag. Just because you wouldn’t have ever bought most of the stuff you get from a chest doesn’t negate it’s implied value. The fact that by adding much rarer, highly valued items to the list of possible items doesn’t make it gambling either.

Not technically maybe, but let’s be real here, we all know that it feels almost identical to gambling.

And in the case of things like the permanent style kit, there is a hint of actual gambling, considering that you can spend gems with real money, potentially get a kit, sell it for gold, and then exchange that gold for more gems (which could technically yield you a monetary profit). You are never getting your RL currency back in its original form, but it’s borderline.

Labjax.2465:

Behellagh.1468:

Since the BLTC is listed as containing three random items of similar value to the cost of a key, it’s not gambling, it’s a grab bag. Just because you wouldn’t have ever bought most of the stuff you get from a chest doesn’t negate it’s implied value. The fact that by adding much rarer, highly valued items to the list of possible items doesn’t make it gambling either.

Not technically maybe, but let’s be real here, we all know that it feels almost identical to gambling.

And in the case of things like the permanent style kit, there is a hint of actual gambling, considering that you can spend gems with real money, potentially get a kit, sell it for gold, and then exchange that gold for more gems (which could technically yield you a monetary profit). You are never getting your RL currency back in its original form, but it’s borderline.

no, its technically gambling,
“Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize”

just because there is a standard payout of lower value doesnt mean its not a gamble, it just means you have better chances.
Essentially as long as some one is making the purchase/wager, with a hope of a certain outcome that they feel is profitable, its gambling.

And yes, many things are actually gambling, and gambling is about intent. If you are purchasing a box of crackerjacks because you are hoping you will get the popeye tatoo, you are gambling, if you are purchasing crackerjacks because you love the caramel popcorn, you are not gambling.

phys.7689:

no, its technically gambling,
“Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize”

just because there is a standard payout of lower value doesnt mean its not a gamble, it just means you have better chances.
Essentially as long as some one is making the purchase/wager, with a hope of a certain outcome that they feel is profitable, its gambling.

And yes, many things are actually gambling, and gambling is about intent. If you are purchasing a box of crackerjacks because you are hoping you will get the popeye tatoo, you are gambling, if you are purchasing crackerjacks because you love the caramel popcorn, you are not gambling.

Maybe so. I’m just thinking that in terms of legalese, it’s probably not considered gambling, concerning gambling laws and other such things, unless it involves real money and a chance to win back / gain more of that real money.

Which is why I called the permanent stylist example “borderline.”

I’m just guessing based on what I’ve heard about certain “gambling” operations getting taxed or shut down. Like what happened with online poker. I’m sure games like this one have lawyers on payroll and are well aware of what the legal boundaries are.

It’s still ethically questionable though – I don’t disagree on that point. But I have sympathy for these games to an extent because pay models just don’t work as well anymore and you have to get income somehow with free-to-play.

It’s technically but is violating any local, state or national laws? No because the value of the contents is the same or more than the cost. Otherwise Crakerjacks, capsule toys, blind boxes and grab bags wouldn’t persist.

Its not currently a legal issue, though some states/countries do out law it as gambling now.
Im not saying it should be outlawed either, a lil bit of gamble isnt the end of the world.

froacus.6892:

2) there are other methods of obtaining skins besides BL chests

Ahem excuse me no, that is the only way you can get your hands on a skin without buying it.

Lukyromero.6780:

froacus.6892:

2) there are other methods of obtaining skins besides BL chests

Ahem excuse me no, that is the only way you can get your hands on a skin without buying it.

That’s like saying if I want to drink milk I need to feed a cow.

If you mean as a mmorpg the reward for adventuring etc is lackster. I do agree though.

This just in: Black Lion scraps and tickets have double the drop rate.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/double-black-lion-claim-ticket-chances/

Ok course its still a chance. But with the monetization of the keys in order to get one of these scraps/tickets for a skin, it just a different way to get them. If people want to farm gold to get the skins. Great! If people want to do key runs to get scraps/tickets. Great! If people want to buy keys to get scraps/tickets. Great!
Overall though, buying keys to get the skins is a terrible investment, unless yo udon’t mind spending the money to support the game. I don’t feel that this is in anyway wrong, or misleading, or a bad idea. It offers people various ways to get the items they want.

phys.7689:

no, its technically gambling,
“Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize”

just because there is a standard payout of lower value doesnt mean its not a gamble, it just means you have better chances.
Essentially as long as some one is making the purchase/wager, with a hope of a certain outcome that they feel is profitable, its gambling.

Oh boy! Legal talk! Allow me to post my own quote from last year:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

/sigh

For Federal Lottery Laws, a lottery is a promotion that has three elements:
1) Prizes
2) Winners Chosen by Chance
3) Consideration

To avoid being classified as an illegal lottery, sweepstakes must ensure that at least one of these elements is missing. Because prizes and luck are central to sweepstakes where the winners are drawn at random, legitimate promotions can never have “consideration”.

Definition of “consideration”: In sweepstakes terms, consideration is simply payment for a prize. Generally, sweepstakes that award prizes by chance are not allowed to have an element of consideration. Consideration doesn’t have to be money; it can be anything that can profit the sponsor. For example, a company cannot require that entrants purchase a product to participate in sweepstakes (or, if they do, they must provide an alternate method of entry). You’ll hear the following a lot in the US: “No purchase necessary”

So purchasing Black Lion Chest Keys from the Gem Store requires the use of “Gems”. Gems can be either purchased via real money, or traded for with in game currency (i.e. Copper, Silver, and/or Gold).

Also, a few more things. Gems and all items either purchase or won from chests have no value, and are still property of NCSoft. You’re basically paying for the use of Gems and all items. Please refer to the User Agreement, section 4. “ACCOUNT AND PAYMENTS TO NCSOFT”

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

pdavis.8031:

This just in: Black Lion scraps and tickets have double the drop rate.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/double-black-lion-claim-ticket-chances/

Ok course its still a chance. But with the monetization of the keys in order to get one of these scraps/tickets for a skin, it just a different way to get them. If people want to farm gold to get the skins. Great! If people want to do key runs to get scraps/tickets. Great! If people want to buy keys to get scraps/tickets. Great!
Overall though, buying keys to get the skins is a terrible investment, unless yo udon’t mind spending the money to support the game. I don’t feel that this is in anyway wrong, or misleading, or a bad idea. It offers people various ways to get the items they want.

Thanks for the heads up. I may not have noticed. I seem to have some luck getting scraps and full tickets so I don’t mind seeing if that luck can be doubled lol.

Those skins should be sold a reasonably small gems cost each on the first 2-4 weeks after release, with the possibility of getting all skins in one pack at a discount.
Then get after the time is up, the pack is no longer sold and the skins are sold 600 gems each, purchasable directly from the wardrobe with a couple of clicks.

They’d sell way more that way.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Those skins should be sold a reasonably small gems cost each on the first 2-4 weeks after release, with the possibility of getting all skins in one pack at a discount.
Then get after the time is up, the pack is no longer sold and the skins are sold 600 gems each, purchasable directly from the wardrobe with a couple of clicks.

They’d sell way more that way.

The fact that Anet WANTS players in the game (rather than buying everything with a few clicks then logging off) has more to do with this than how much revenue they may gain by selling the skins directly. Despite what most players tend to think, Anet has some savvy people working there that realize a quick fast buck is far less important than a steady income over a long period of time (not to mention continued employment for many of those people…and a game for us to play a few years or so down the road).