Check my Math please.
Now I am making another post and not editing because its in another form of a problem which makes this off topic but relates to this post.
Based on the inflation we are seeing each day, only Arena-net can see in the records if those Legendaries are sold or not, which in many old and previous threads, when the community brought up in concerns, that they were watching those sellers closely.
Now what I learned is that to cause inflation, you play this little game called, “I think I can sell this for a higher price” or “Hype of the value of an item threw Rumors and deceivement”.
Now the problem with the second method, which is being used to set the value of prices in the Black Market, is that those people who are making these Legendaries are not sticking to the same prices and definitely not selling those legendaries.
In fact the people that are selling those Legendaries are purposely increasing the prices of that item to cause a false illusion that the value of the item has increased.
By doing this the Black Market (The community base) is auto trying to balance itself to match the value of the Legendary threw goods and (Gems). However the problem is while the market is adjusting itself, “other goods” with the same group of people that are selling those Legendaries, are able to increase their own other goods (Either on Main Account or a different account) and make a profit by selling it at the price they want because society was auto adjusting to match the value of the Legendary.
Thus in an example with dyes, say Legendary holder/attempting to sell, had a (rare) dye for sell for 45 gold. The economy says thats too expensive, so to by pass this, the legendary seller, raises the value of the Legendary higher, making the dye seem alot reasonable or cheaper to ask for that price.
However because the Legendaries are really not being sold, Legendary sellers can keep raising its own value to gain a profit on other goods without selling the Legendary at all. Since there is no rule how high a value of an item can go for, in the fake illusion of said price, the only way to stop someone is too “Crash” the market on purpose saying that item’s value is worth nothing.
Now of course, no such thing can be done on the internet when it comes to a virtual item that does not exist physically.
Arenanet is in charge of how the value of items are suppose to go for but just how far are we going to late inflation keep rising? At this rate in 6 months a single legendary will be 5,000 dollars soon.
(edited by Shadowlancer.7102)
Your math isn’t wrong, however you cannot use gem to gold transfer as a basis for worth. And the asking price far exceeds the cost, even if you buy the precursor outright. Gems aren’t the basis on which the games currency standard is balanced.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
You realize that the value of an item is not the price being offered, but at the price it gets sold. There is no inflation involved here. Just greedy players overcharging on impatient players.
[Now what I learned is that to cause inflation, you play this little game called, “I think I can sell this for a higher price” or “Hype of the value of an item threw Rumors and deceivement”.]
This is also not inflation. This is called market speculation.
(edited by kokocabana.8153)
@ kokocabana.8153
Yes but here is the problem, you are saying “If the Legendary item” gets sold. As long as the item doesn’t sell, the seller can freely increase the price of the Legendary, with no strings attached, to create a false value to trick the economy to sell his other goods to make profit that way.
Sorry to say but that’s inflation by the abuse of “Market Speculation” being manipulated.
He can’t freely increase the price of the Legendary. That is why there is a 5% listing fee. That 3200g legendary would cost him at least 160g+ each time he relists.
@ kokocabana.8153
Yes but here is the problem, you are saying “If the Legendary item” gets sold. As long as the item doesn’t sell, the seller can freely increase the price of the Legendary, with no strings attached, to create a false value to trick the economy to sell his other goods to make profit that way.
Sorry to say but that’s inflation by the abuse of “Market Speculation” being manipulated.
Yes. The seller loses the listing fee each time he increases the price, and as he increases the price, he’s losing more and more potential customers.
The only abuse going on here is to this “seller’s” wallet.
@ kokocabana.8153
Yeah he can, if he can make a profit above the listing fee, meaning for example.
By increasing the value of the legendary, he creates the false illusion of the item’s value. So in turn any items that is used part or in making this Legendary item (Which basically the whole set up of the Mystic Forge and Trade Skills in this game), can be increased as well.
So as long as the seller makes 150%, 200%, or 300% profit on the materials used to make this Legendary; that was based on the inflation value of a legendary in the first place; the listing fee is voided.
Inflation occurs when the general level of prices increase in the economy due to a loss in purchasing power. Legendaries are one type of item and a extreme luxury good at that. Boeing can price their 787 jumbojet at 100 million dollars, but that does not suddenly mean that Walmart will start charging double on all their products. Legendaries/Boeing 787s are not used as a benchmark for price levels because they are a speculative luxury item.
@ kokocabana.8153
This is such a poor cheap example. Wal-mart just buys everything up at a cheap price by forcing its opponent to lower there prices. If said opponent cannot afford goods from location A to be resold at Location B they either have to sell out or quit all together.
Then with no competitors, Wal-mart will be the ones setting the prices at what ever price and make people “Think its cheap and getting a good deal” when the quality or value of the item is dirt.
Which is kinda sorta what’s happening right now. We got Legendary holders setting the price whenever they want, never selling the legendary and making a 300% profit on a inflated price on the materials needed to make a Legendary, which makes the listing fee voided.
@ kokocabana.8153
Yeah he can, if he can make a profit above the listing fee, meaning for example.
By increasing the value of the legendary, he creates the false illusion of the item’s value. So in turn any items that is used part or in making this Legendary item (Which basically the whole set up of the Mystic Forge and Trade Skills in this game), can be increased as well.
So as long as the seller makes 150%, 200%, or 300% profit on the materials used to make this Legendary; that was based on the inflation value of a legendary in the first place; the listing fee is voided.
This would only work if they were the sole supplier of legendaries and its materials on the TP. The whole point of connecting the TP to all servers and players is that people can undercut someone overcharging.
I’m not disagreeing with you that there is a lot of market speculation on items. I’m disagreeing with you on the point that they are creating inflation through this.
(edited by kokocabana.8153)
@ kokocabana.8153
Have you forgotten that the Legendary holders are nothing but 5 people working together? This is a controlled situation.
One person holds the value of the Legendary.
Second Person holds the value of the Materials needed for Legendary.
Third person holds the value of Trade skill materials needed to skill up said tradeskills to make the higher level products for the final stages of the Legendary Materials.
Fourth person buys up unsuspecting sellers that put items super cheap without known the value because of the crazy prices and then resells at a higher value.
Fifth person Watches the market for when any new items that come up and watches the loot tables. (Since the loot table is always designed to give materials for legendary making and Ectos.)
Not sure where you going with this man, you have yet to provide a valued argument or point in derailing this thread.
Ummm, now you are talking about collusion. I’m going to stop commenting on this thread and put on a tin foil hat.
@ kokocabana.8153
Okay well whether you read this and reply or not.
It really doesn’t matter if they work together or not, all these few people, are well aware on who has which field in the marketing and they all contribute by forcing one another to raise the value on any of the items to increase their own profit.
So yes, go ahead and put on your tin foil hat, it clearly shows you know nothing about marketing and possibly a little to advance for your mind.
That or you are the very people that contribute to the cause and you basically are just trying to mislead the thread.
You’re suggesting a group of 5 people are pulling off a massive collusion scheme on the TP. You know why that can’t work, because there are probably 5000 groups of 5 players that can just as easily pull this off and each one will compete and undercut against each other until margins drop to nothing.
Sorry if you look at the history of buy to sell prices you’ll see there have been maybe, at best 12 sold and all far below initial asking price of 9500g. If there is anyone manipulating prices now, they are out of their minds.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
@ kokocabana.8153
Not necessarily, if you were playing Guild Wars 2 during head start. You very well know that alot of items were changed from Karma to Drop item in the loot table or vice versa. Alot of items were changed but people that were smart, got a huge boost in gold, to buy people up cheap and re-sale the value of the item at their price.
That’s why you see a single seller that hundreds or thousands of said particular item because they bought it cheap at 1 copper in value or cost and basically resold at 400-1000% profit during the prime time of Guild Wars 2.
By having the money those few people can buy anyone out and re-sale any item they wish.
However judging that you either failed to notice this or joined late into this game, you really seem to misinformed and mispositioned on your state of being.
Where is this magical world where I’m able to find customers for luxury goods no matter how high I price my goods?
@ munkiman.3068 @ Ursan.7846
Oh my… I seemed to hit the Red Alert button for some people. I hope I dont force the idea of removing Legendaries from the Market or Arena-net stepping in putting “their” own version of what the value of the item can go for.
That would so… ruin a lot of profit plans wouldn’t it?
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/30689
Huh, look at that. No change in sell listing price since January.
I’m guessing my point flew over your head, but this method you’re proposing is INCREDIBLY UNPROFITABLE.
Your original statement I had a problem with:
Yes but here is the problem, you are saying “If the Legendary item” gets sold. As long as the item doesn’t sell, the seller can freely increase the price of the Legendary, with no strings attached, to create a false value to trick the economy to sell his other goods to make profit that way.
Sorry to say but that’s inflation by the abuse of “Market Speculation” being manipulated.
You’re saying a seller constantly re-lists the item higher and higher in order to earn higher profits?
1. You’re losing 5% of the value each time you re-list.
2. Every time you re-list for a high price, you’re losing potential customers.
Look at the spidy chart. It’s safe to say that no Eternity sell listing has actually sold since January. Each time you increase your price, you increase your risk of not selling that item. If someone were to do what you are proposing, he’d be hemorrhaging money. Which is why your method is stupid and won’t work, and why no one does it.
@ Ursan.7846
Thank you for proving my point. As long as the Legendary doesn’t sell the higher the price it goes.
Please read my previous post about inflating materials required for Legendaries to by pass the re-list value price.
Thank you and have a nice day.
@ munkiman.3068 @ Ursan.7846
Oh my… I seemed to hit the Red Alert button for some people. I hope I dont force the idea of removing Legendaries from the Market or Arena-net stepping in putting “their” own version of what the value of the item can go for.
That would so… ruin a lot of profit plans wouldn’t it?
If i get a legendary i won’t be selling it. I agree these items shouldn’t be sold or traded, but i’m not screaming how lop-sided the market is based on gems versus the cost of legendaries either. These are player set prices and no one is buying. Go be smug somewhere else.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
Thank you for proving my point. As long as the Legendary doesn’t sell the higher the price it goes.
Yes, as long as the Legendary doesn’t sell, you won’t see any profit.
And your “point” (increasing prices) is obviously not happening according to Spidy.
@ munkiman.3068
Has nothing in being smug, just I see how a group of people are poisoning the market and just wondering why Arena-net wont do anything about it.
Also why are you holding the legendary?
@ Ursan.7846
Actually it is happening, the legendary holder is making more profit selling other goods at a higher price required for said legendary than selling the legendary, so rather than the number increases on plain paper for the public to see, its increasing in value by other means which increases its value.
Do you understand now or would you like to try again?
@ munkiman.3068
Has nothing in being smug, just I see how a group of people are poisoning the market and just wondering why Arena-net wont do anything about it.
Also why are you holding the legendary?
I would use it… Clearly you are trolling or you’re not that smart. No one is inflating the price on legendaries just to make a profit on the low end, learn something about trading. In order for someone to make a profit on the low end by inflating legendaries, they’d have to make a killing, which isn’t happening. Look at the actual cost of goods, before making such grand imagined ideas.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
@ munkiman.3068
That’s not trolling, you did not specify if you equip it or bank it or what ever else. You need to be specific in what you say, also what does “Equiping” a Legendary or you not choosing to sell said Legendary, have anything to do with this thread on said “topics” ?
Also when you say make a killing, well for the few people that did make the “killing” already had the money to make even more “Killing”.
Edit: Whoops y made a error. I suppose the fatigue from people that have no valid argument is getting to me. Correct.
(edited by Shadowlancer.7102)
Trolling is the act of making outrageous claims and not being able to back them up with facts. Anyone savvy enough can make money on the low end without inflating prices on the high end. Many items move so fast that all you really need to do is be quick about it. People are lazy and will buy whatever the going rate is and people that are savvy take advantage of that.
Also, clearly you aren’t even reading post, therefore acting smug. I made no mention to walmart.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
Wal-mart example is mine, not mukiman.3068.
Do you understand now or would you like to try again?
Your statements are stupid because your claims are directly contradicted with data and your conclusions are built upon huge assumptions.
he economy says thats too expensive, so to by pass this, the legendary seller, raises the value of the Legendary higher, making the dye seem alot reasonable or cheaper to ask for that price.
However because the Legendaries are really not being sold, Legendary sellers can keep raising its own value to gain a profit on other goods without selling the Legendary at all.
As long as the item doesn’t sell, the seller can freely increase the price of the Legendary, with no strings attached
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/30689
Eternity has seen an overall DECREASE in price since the beginning of January. This phenomenon of “sellers keep raising the prices of the Legendary” DOES NOT EXIST.
You also make a huge (and really stupid) assumption.
The economy says thats too expensive, so to by pass this, the legendary seller, raises the value of the Legendary higher, making the dye seem alot reasonable or cheaper to ask for that price.
You are assuming that the sell listing prices of Eternity DIRECTLY AFFECTS prices of all other commodities. This is absolute nonsense, and a quick glance of spidy shows this to be not true. Eternity prices have been dropping since the beginning of April, while many components for Legendary crafting have seen an increase in prices.
Armored Scales:
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/24289
Vicious Fangs:
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/24357
Just a few examples.
What about dyes, the example you used?
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/20356
Oh look, it INCREASED despite the DECREASE in Eternity price.
The price of Eternity is NOT the sole determining factor for the prices of these commodities. It is incredibly clear from Spidy.
@ munkiman.3068
Okay well you accused me on two accounts of Trolling, one what you were going to do with a “Legendary” which you stated your intention and thus has nothing to do with said topics.
Second accusation of Trolling is actually false since I have proven long ago. By stating that everything that I have posted (Which is used in real Life) is considered Trolling, there would be no such thing as the Marketing place that buy and sell trades or the term “marketing speculation”.
So in this, I find this a weak post on your part.
@ kokocabana.8153
Fixed, my apologies, I got lost. You and “munkiman.3068” were sorta on the same page of misleading the thread.
/shrugs
@ Ursan.7846
My statements are stupid. Wow…
So what you see is “Eternity” is decreasing in price on public paper, another item increase in price to make the value of “Eternity” to meet said quota and profit above its value; while over all still increases its value.
Legendaries, thanks to Arenanet making a big deal out of them, are a high value item of desire. Since most of the trade skill system, mystic forge, and vender all revolves around the Legendary; yes Legendary weapons “set the value” of economic items.
Legendaries, thanks to Arenanet making a big deal out of them, are a high value item of desire. Since most of the trade skill system, mystic forge, and vender all revolves around the Legendary; yes Legendary weapons “set the value” of economic items.
While there are some items whose price might be impacted by the demand for them by people creating legendaries, this doesn’t hold true for all items on the trading post. While the price of the “finished product” (i.e. a specific legendary) as listed on the TP might influence someone towards either crafting one or buying one outright, it’s a step too far to say that raising the price of the finished legendary directly affects the price of materials required to craft one.
Additionally, you have yet to answer Ursan’s point that Eternity has been in fact decreasing in price since January.
@ Astraea.6075
Actually I did answer “Ursan” ’s question.
Now for your question, which was also answer. If you are regarding to items like “Dyes”, “Weapon and Armor Skins”, “Special One time Event items”, or “Special items from the Black Lion Chest”, or even the “Mystic Forge Items”, ect ect.
Yes Legendaries does impact those items to on their value because people want to get a certain amount gold from those items to purchase Legendary components which has already been set and inflated by the value of a legendary, so you are forced to make money from other items to pay them.
Even if a player does not use the gold to purchase any item to form a legendary, the same basic components used for Legendaries are used in other recipes and will never change.
Even if you use the gold to buy gems to save, purchase, or re-sell for more gold, the gold you made from those items; were in fact affected by the Legendary Weapon.
So there is… no way out of this chain effect.
Dun dun dun. Silly people with their silly arguments.
Could you please tell me how much price of ecto has gone up during last month Shadowlancer? Could you tell me how much price of lodestones has gone up during last month? Could you tell me how much price of Gift of metal/wood has gone up during last month? How much price of charged/onyx (specific for your eternity) lodestones has gone up last month?
Now create me a basket of base items needed for legendaries. After that you come tell me how much imaginary profit you’ve made with keeping eternity price up.
Oh wait, seems that most of prices have gone down. =/ Bad business.
You could exclude price of certain precursors that have gone up but this can be easily explained how undervalued they were before. Sure, profit for those who speculate but not really good meter of inflation.
It seems to me that you seriously belive people buying gems to sell gems for gold to buy legendary? May I ask one silly question: Why? You might be right on that one or maybe even dozen (rich) fools exist in our world who (might) do that, but majority of us – as you do – see it being silly and bad idea. Too expensive for skin.
Buying gems to get gold itself… It could be easy way to afford your new lv 80 toon full set of armor. For now, it seems, full set of heavy zerger+gs goes under 40g. Could you tell me how much price of this has gone up during last month? I don’t see much inflation there… At first sight it seems that prices have gone down… You spend ten or twenty bucks to buy gems and get yourself lazy way out gearing – sounds more reasonable to me than someone buying full legendary.
Dun dun dun. Price of luxury goods will go up as long as there is demand for them at those prices. If they stop going up, that’s because price has hit sweetspot. As long as gold is easy to come by for “heavy farmers” with their 5-10g hourly income prices will likely keep adjusting upwards (So, by your math, 200-400g for certain rare dyes if you take one week worth of work and put that to farming) and as long as there is “easy” supply price will adjust downwards (such as sPvP for dyes, collecting nodes for dyes, crafting for dyes) that will have its own impact on other stuff.
You’re right that price of legendaries is silly high. But again, time you spent making one is silly high as well. Why reward of such work should be worth any less? Doesn’t have to mean inflation.
In fact, you might want to look things like this.
1 Gems→Gold goes up
2 This means more gems are needed by playerbase meaning gold<>gems buffer starts buffering more and more gold.
3 More and more gold leaves economy (cannot cause inflation)
4 Someone buys gems and releases gold from buffer
5 That someone consumes gold, thus destroying it forever. Either NPC purchase (100% destruction) or TP purchase (15% fee) or multiple TP purchases (multiple times of 15% fee).
6 TP will never cause inflation. It’ll destroy gold instead
7 Your heavy COF farmer grinder keeps farming and farming and farming cof and makes gold that will eventually increase amount of gold in system, thus after certain steps will cause “inflation”.
Either they add sinks to burn this gold, or reduce gold generated by system. First one is good and all, second one will make people cry that their sole way (cof or any other) to generate wealth has been nerfed and Anet doesn’t care of its customers at all and tries only to make it hard to get gold so people would instead buy gems to get gold and and and and…
Time to get my tinfoil hat. Sorry for rambling, but your argument and math would have been better if you had bothered to make basket of your goods and “prove” inflation. Instead of just throwing your arugment to thin air. Hope I didn’t ruin your day. ^^ I’ll try avoid replying back and argumenting, since internetarguments are similar to paraolympics. Only winners and specials.
OooOOoohh, box of shinies. So many shinies!
Outsource rng → profit.
Outsource rng → profit.
LOL! This thread is the best example of someone trying to learn economic theories with Google. Couple that with unfounded assumptions on the market, and you get your typical, hardcore conspiracy theorist.
@Ursan – If you told the OP that you had a way of making 20 Gold by losing 160 Gold, he’d think you’re a genius.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
I pretty much said what needs to be said other than…
Arena-net needs to do the following:
- Put set prices on end game items on how high an item can go to be sold on Auction House.
- Add Gold to Leader Boards for Public Records. (World Wide)
- Remove Legendary Weapons (Not Pre-Cursor) from the Auction House.
That should balance out the entire economics of the entire game.
One last thing, the more you guys try to argue over this on my thread, the more you just prove my points.
(edited by Shadowlancer.7102)
I pretty much said what needs to be said other than…
Arena-net needs to do the following:
- Put set prices on end game items on how high an item can go to be sold on Auction House.
Because price control works so well every time it’s tried. (this is sarcasm)
- Add Gold to Leader Boards for Public Records. (World Wide)
If you are hoping to shame people with this, know that the opposite is likely to occur as players strive to be the Daddy Warbucks of Tyria. Also revealing their virtual wealth will simply make them more of a target for hacks and spam from players looking for a handout.
- Remove Legendary Weapons (Not Pre-Cursor) from the Auction House.
Because if you are Daddy Warbucks you shouldn’t be able to use your filthy lucre to buy anything you want? I don’t think people in the real world are buying expensive European sport cars as kits so why shouldn’t the same rules apply?
That should balance out the entire economics of the entire game.
One last thing, the more you guys try to argue over this on my thread, the more you just prove my points.
No, your entire premise is because there are outrageously expensive but desirable items at the TP, this somehow negatively affects the entire economy of the game. That this drives players to “earn” money by jacking up the price of everything else. Problem with your hypothesis is there isn’t widespread evidence to support it.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
(edited by Behellagh.1468)
One last thing, the more you guys try to argue over this on my thread, the more you just prove my points.
/sigh. Looks like I forgot the cardinal rule of debate: “You can’t use reason when debating a conspiracy theorist”. So allow me to bring out my straw hat to counter your tin foil one.
However because the Legendaries are really not being sold, Legendary sellers can keep raising its own value to gain a profit on other goods without selling the Legendary at all. Since there is no rule how high a value of an item can go for, in the fake illusion of said price, the only way to stop someone is too “Crash” the market on purpose saying that item’s value is worth nothing.
You make the assumption that Mat prices are based on what certain Legendary weapons are listed for. It’s like me assuming you have no money to buy Gems, because all you do is complain about Gem prices.
Arenanet is in charge of how the value of items are suppose to go for but just how far are we going to late inflation keep rising? At this rate in 6 months a single legendary will be 5,000 dollars soon.
You make the assumption that Anet controls the value of items. Sorry. Players determine the price to sell an item for, and players determine if they’re willing to pay that price. I could easily post a couple of Legendaries for 5k each, but that won’t have any effect on the economy at all, except for emptying my pockets to pay for the listing fee.
Sorry to say but that’s inflation by the abuse of “Market Speculation” being manipulated.
Not sure if you understand what inflation is. You may have clicked on the wrong link in Google. And speculation does not equal manipulation.
Then with no competitors, Wal-mart will be the ones setting the prices at what ever price and make people “Think its cheap and getting a good deal” when the quality or value of the item is dirt.
You also don’t understand business as well. No competition leads to higher prices, but when that happens, the door opens for new competition to come in and undercut. It’s self defeating, since it’s impossible for Walmart to have a monopoly on retail goods and grocery. They do well because they’re able to sell goods at prices lower than the competition. Low profit margins are made up by higher sales volume. And buying in larger volumes from vendors tend to score Walmart discounts. Smaller stores aren’t able to undercut them, since profit margins start to become razor-thin.
TL;DR – The more you post, the more you prove our points that you don’t understand how economies work. But I give you credit on one thing. You try really hard to sound like your ideas have merit.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!