GW2 TP is awesome. Not only is it good for our game, it’s good for the industry.
Yeah well my response is that it has turned me off ingame RMT systems such that I would have to seriously consider whether I would play another game with a similar system and it has turned me off F2P or B2P games back in favour of the subscription model.
Yeah well my response is that it has turned me off ingame RMT systems such that I would have to seriously consider whether I would play another game with a similar system and it has turned me off F2P or B2P games back in favour of the subscription model.
I’m not sure if you’ve been following the discussion in this thread, but none of what we’re talking about has anything to do with RMT.
TP- Did not work at launch for how long again? Oh right… like a few months….
TP DOesn’t work how often? Pretty much like atleast ten times a day it encounters an error.
TP Loading takes how long? Well let’s see… about ten seconds to a full minute.
WoW loaded how long? Instant
WoW had how many problems? Virtually none.
You obviously did not play WoW within the first year or so if you cannot recall instances of the AH not loading or lagging out.
Isn’t WoW using an auction house? I know that’s what they call it, and I saw you could bid on things, but I’m not sure if it actually works like a real auction where you put up an item (with maybe a min bid and a buy out price) and people can keep trying to outbid each other until the date the seller set.
WoW (and D3) does in fact use an auction “house” which is very similar to an auction website. You technically can bid, but can also set flat-price buyouts, and guess which is actually used more often to complete trades and define the market price. The TP is essentially the trade system that most WoW players use, irrespective of what they call it. The GW2 TP basically just streamlines it by eliminating all inefficient and underused auction house features, and in doing so introduces a better inventory system with more consistent pricing. Even for its ugliness at times with the bad UI and periods of unavailability, the system itself is a good example of what results from actually studying and thinking about an issue that exists and coming up with a solution that addresses it, instead of blindly copying ebay’s design from the late 90s.
(edited by Leablo.2651)
While I’d love for the TP to be a bit more user friendly, all in all, it does a very good job.
As far as gems go, they’re brilliant in theory AND reality. It’s a win-win for everyone, both those who want to b2p and those who don’t have enough time to be online 24/7.
And the company reads those threads too, making adjustment if needed, even doubling or making half the drop rate of the source. The community and the company both works together to keep the market stable.
We want names on TP, and Anet help.
Two separate items here; first of all, you have hit on the one thing which might reduce prices on the things you want, the company adjusting drop rates to change prices. Based on dev posts in discussions about ectos, it is clear that they (probably mainly John Smith, but I’m sure he is not allowed to change these things single handedly) monitor prices on “high end items”. If they have not changed those drop rates yet, they are evidently ok with prices being around what they currently are. You may not like those prices, but your argument is not with speculators, it is with the devs. Good luck.
Secondly, regarding asking for names, in a thread discussing ectos around March 15, John Smith posted that in 24 hours 150,000 ectos are sold by almost 10,000 unique sellers. Ectos are far from the most traded item on the TP, who is volunteering to monitor 10,000 names a day for ONE item out of many to see if somebody is buying them low and selling them high and thus “manipulating” the system?
Incidently, he had a nice distribution graph to show that no one seller is turning over any significant fraction of those ectos, so unless there is a consortium of a hundred or so players with tens of thousands of gold at its disposal it is hard to come up with any way that item could be manipulated. . .
So who exactly chose the actual precursor price, tell me.
The “community-driven” marketplace.
It’s been discussed to death by both the community and the Anet economist how precursor markets are not monopolized.
Whether they are monopolised or not, is it good for the game that so many of the end game rewards are monopolised by gold which favours TP flipping, gold buying and gold farming (CoF p1 runs) instead of earned through content distributed throughout the game?
I fail to see how the TP is good for the game when obtaining most of the more desirable items (anything made with Vials of Powerful Blood or Charged Lodestones) end up costing upwards of 100g and in many cases close to 1000g. Any item dominated by the TP and these kinds of grinds discourages players from playing content because it’s fun or challenging and promotes players grinding fast gold farms, buying gold and flipping items in the TP as fast as possible. Instead of rewarding content in your game, earning items by completing content in the game (and item rewards for most of the game are commonly considered to be terrible – I blame the grind heavy, low drop rates designed to promote the TP) becomes almost impossible. I can’t earn Infinite Light by completing the most challenging content in the game. I can’t earn it by complete a series of challenging content in the game. I have to buy it with gold, and because I have to compete with people who flip items for insane profits, with people who get lucky drops, with people who farm CoF endlessly or people who buy gold from RMTs or even ArenaNet, I won’t be able to afford this item. Not by playing the game for fun.
The TP does terrible things to the game. Instead of earning our rewards from content, we now have to grind the TP currency as much as possible to buy most of the end game rewards. Any end game that ends with a TP is a terrible end game. ArenaNet doesn’t need to hire an economist, they need to hire another developer who can look at item acquisition, look at the kinds of content it encourages players to play and then rework item acquisition so that it is better distributed throughout the entire game and isn’t bypassed by simply throwing gold at it – that’s why the TP is not good for Guild Wars 2 and it’s not good for the MMO industry. It rewards grind, RMT and TP flipping and players who don’t participate in these three activities (or who don’t do so efficiently) play at an opportunity cost. When gold can buy almost everything, the only thing that begins to matter is gold and the ways to obtain gold the fastest. All the other content becomes ignored because it’s not competitive.
Whether they are monopolised or not, is it good for the game that so many of the end game rewards are monopolised by gold which favours TP flipping, gold buying and gold farming (CoF p1 runs) instead of earned through content distributed throughout the game?
You’re no longer arguing about the efficiency of the marketplace (Which it is. It is incredibly efficient.) you are getting into the argument, whether it’s good for the game to artificially lengthen the duration in which you can attain this luxury items.
My answer to that is a resounding yes, especially when said luxury items have absolutely no affect on the gameplay.
EDIT: It’s interesting when you say “it rewards grind, RMT and TP flipping.” Extrinsic rewards perhaps, but what about the intrinsic rewards of actually playing the game? Despite your claims that “All other content becomes ignored,” there’s still a TON of players out there doing open world stuff, in WvW, and doing random other things like the SAB. I think it’s safe to say that a significant portion of the playerbase plays the game for its intrinsic rewards, not the extrinsic rewards.
(edited by Ursan.7846)
Whether they are monopolised or not, is it good for the game that so many of the end game rewards are monopolised by gold which favours TP flipping, gold buying and gold farming (CoF p1 runs) instead of earned through content distributed throughout the game?
You’re no longer arguing about the efficiency of the marketplace (Which it is. It is incredibly efficient.) you are getting into the argument, whether it’s good for the game to artificially lengthen the duration in which you can attain this luxury items.
My answer to that is a resounding yes, especially when said luxury items have absolutely no affect on the gameplay.
EDIT: It’s interesting when you say “it rewards grind, RMT and TP flipping.” Extrinsic rewards perhaps, but what about the intrinsic rewards of actually playing the game? Despite your claims that “All other content becomes ignored,” there’s still a TON of players out there doing open world stuff, in WvW, and doing random other things like the SAB. I think it’s safe to say that a significant portion of the playerbase plays the game for its intrinsic rewards, not the extrinsic rewards.
I may be assuming a bit here, but I think what they were referring to is that the “manner” (tying to gold) of which they artificially lengthen (high gold cost) the duration of obtaining luxury item effect game play by adding incentive to participate in specific methods. By tying these luxuries so heavily to gold they encourage trading and cof1 type methods, thus indirectly effecting game play. They could have very easily used another method to extend the duration of obtaining luxury items.
(edited by Essence Snow.3194)
Although the lack of sinks (crafting was completely useless), terrible itemization focused on excessive vertical progression (2 level 60 characters could be 10x apart in everything depending on gear) contributed to the mess, the main problem was Blizzard’s inability to stop botting and most of the time they just flat out ignored the problem despite the community constantly pointing out blatant exploiters.
The other problem is that D3’s content was incredibly repetitious due to it being rather short but artificially extended by 4 difficulty level and thus the only activity was just grinding for the sake of grinding… to grind faster.
Sure D1 and D2 had that to some degree, but they had far more options and your character wasn’t 99% dependent on gear. That’s one thing I liked about Gw2, gear just makes things easier, but a crappy player in better gear will still be a crappy player. This is not true of d3 at all.
(edited by ArchonWing.9480)
Whether they are monopolised or not, is it good for the game that so many of the end game rewards are monopolised by gold which favours TP flipping, gold buying and gold farming (CoF p1 runs) instead of earned through content distributed throughout the game?
Not IMHO and its why I mentioned RMT because it looks like anet is using it as a method to get people to buy gems.
I think how efficient/effective the TP is and the design for end game rewards design, despite being inherently linked, are two separate topics. If we want to talk about end game reward design we should start a new thread.
Not IMHO and its why I mentioned RMT because it looks like anet is using it as a method to get people to buy gems.
I see this attitude a lot and it puzzles me that people don’t do the math and think through the consequences…
Assuming a gem → gold rate of 1.75g per 100 gems, US$10 would net you 14 gold. That means it would take at least $200 (280g) to even make a dent in the purchase price of the popular precursors.
While there are people willing to throw that sort of money at a game, I doubt there are enough of them to make it a sustainable part of ANet’s business. In addition their strategy appears to be focused more on selling things in the gem store (sales, BLC lottery, minis) than on driving the in-game prices of everything up so that people feel they need to buy gems to convert to gold.
You also need to remember that the RMT side of the TP benefits players too. Most of the gems I have bought have been with in-game gold, thereby allowing me access to goods and services (character slots, server transfers) without opening up my wallet.
Regarding the TP… For months now I’ve been asking myself why items purchased aren’t account-bound to prevent “flipping” (Trading Post Manipulation for profit)
Additionally, why on earth Legendaries are tradeable. The majority of components required aren’t, and they were touted as items to “display players mastery of the game”… Which currently just shows how well you can exploit the trading post.
Regarding the TP… For months now I’ve been asking myself why items purchased aren’t account-bound to prevent “flipping” (Trading Post Manipulation for profit)
If you think about what would happen where this to be the case, you’d see why it shouldn’t be done this way. Every item on the Trading Post would eventually reach the point where they are 1c over Vendor Value….except for the really low supply items, like Precursors. While this may sound like a great idea in theory, what actually happens is that you’d make more money selling things to the Vendor due to the TP fees than you would selling them on the TP. So….when supply runs low, or runs out, the only place you’ll be able to get ANYTHING you want will be out in the world. If your goal is to save up for a Precursor, how quickly do you think you could do that if you sold everything off to the Vendor. At least with the TP, the LOWEST amount of money you should be getting back from any item is the Vendor Value.
Additionally, why on earth Legendaries are tradeable. The majority of components required aren’t, and they were touted as items to “display players mastery of the game”… Which currently just shows how well you can exploit the trading post.
I actually agree with this statement. Personally, if something that is crafted requires Account Bound materials, then the resultant item should also be Account Bound.
Regarding the TP… For months now I’ve been asking myself why items purchased aren’t account-bound to prevent “flipping” (Trading Post Manipulation for profit)
Most people here define “Flipping” as purchasing buy orders and then posting again sell-orders. I hope you’re also defining it the same way.
This has absolutely no harmful effect on the economy. Just the opposite in fact, since it increases the amount of transactions and helps drive prices to an equilibrium. More transactions in a market = always good.
While there are people willing to throw that sort of money at a game, I doubt there are enough of them to make it a sustainable part of ANet’s business. In addition their strategy appears to be focused more on selling things in the gem store (sales, BLC lottery, minis) than on driving the in-game prices of everything up so that people feel they need to buy gems to convert to gold.
I’m not entirely sure about that. The people who are willing to spend real money on virtual transactions (usually gamblers of one kind or another) can drop tremendous amounts of money on it. I recall reading some statistics about FarmVille where Zynga claimed that only 5% of their playerbase spent money on the game, but that 5% ended up giving them MILLIONS.
However, I do agree that ANet’s approach where you can buy gems using in-game gold in addition to real money is absolutely ingenious; it gives players an option if they can’t (or won’t) spend real money on the gem store. At the same time, restricting the gem store to items that provide only aesthetics (skins, minipets etc.) or convenience (boosters, express items) also prevents players from just spending their way to success in the game.
The business model adopted means that what would make the most fun game is not at all times what the developers believe would make the most profitable game.
These compromises are at the heart of all the TP’s problems, and I believe they inevitably end up corrupting more and more of the game.
@Rez : can you give specific examples of the compromises you think have been made by developers in GW2 because of the business model? I’m not saying they don’t exist, but my gut feeling is that most of them would be similar to compromises that other MMO have to make regardless of whether they are F2P or subscription based.
@Zaxares: I’m not 100% familiar with farmville’s cash shop, but I’m pretty confident that they don’t try to get people to spend several hundred dollars in one hit for a single item. They also boast a much larger playerbase than most MMOs, so 5% would still be a substantial number of transactions.
Whether they are monopolised or not, is it good for the game that so many of the end game rewards are monopolised by gold which favours TP flipping, gold buying and gold farming (CoF p1 runs) instead of earned through content distributed throughout the game?
You’re no longer arguing about the efficiency of the marketplace (Which it is. It is incredibly efficient.) you are getting into the argument, whether it’s good for the game to artificially lengthen the duration in which you can attain this luxury items.
My answer to that is a resounding yes, especially when said luxury items have absolutely no affect on the gameplay.
EDIT: It’s interesting when you say “it rewards grind, RMT and TP flipping.” Extrinsic rewards perhaps, but what about the intrinsic rewards of actually playing the game? Despite your claims that “All other content becomes ignored,” there’s still a TON of players out there doing open world stuff, in WvW, and doing random other things like the SAB. I think it’s safe to say that a significant portion of the playerbase plays the game for its intrinsic rewards, not the extrinsic rewards.
I may be assuming a bit here, but I think what they were referring to is that the “manner” (tying to gold) of which they artificially lengthen (high gold cost) the duration of obtaining luxury item effect game play by adding incentive to participate in specific methods. By tying these luxuries so heavily to gold they encourage trading and cof1 type methods, thus indirectly effecting game play. They could have very easily used another method to extend the duration of obtaining luxury items.
While I agree with your interpretation of what he’s saying, he’s pretty desperately begging the question. His argument is “allowing items to be purchased with gold is bad because grinding for gold is bad because grinding for gold is bad.” Essentially, he’s advocating for forcing players to grind a different type of content (which he personally happens to enjoy, but those are his unique personal preferences which aren’t likely shared by anyone else in the world) and not providing any possible other method of obtaining the items except through extreme forced grind of his preferred variety.
The wonderful thing about the TP is that gold can be made by doing almost any type of content in the game. Certain activities might not be the most efficient methods of obtaining gold, but almost any activity in game will eventually generate enough gold for a player to obtain the items they want. The problem is, people see the most efficient ways to obtain these items and for some godforsaken reason decide that the time and effort involved by that method should be the extreme maximum investment that anyone should ever (under any system) go through to obtain it. Logic would dictate that the maximum investment should be one of the least efficient methods instead. The best baseline would actually be one that’s very much still possible: obtaining the item on your own without purchasing anything from the TP. But people see shortcuts and decide the fastest route is the only route.
Logic would dictate that the maximum investment should be one of the least efficient methods instead. The best baseline would actually be one that’s very much still possible: obtaining the item on your own without purchasing anything from the TP. But people see shortcuts and decide the fastest route is the only route.
This is, and will always be, the issue. If ArenaNet decided to use the baseline you suggested, that would mean that a majority of players could acquire “high end goods” by playing the game normally. What is “normally” though? Therein lies another problem. What’s normal for one person isn’t normal for another, so all you’ve effectively done is lower the hurdle. How low should that hurdle be? These “high end goods” are NOT meant to be acquired by every player in the game. Let me repeat that…..they’re NOT meant to be acquired by every player in the game. They are the “carrot on the stick” for those players that enjoy the grind of an MMO.
If you lower the hurdle and make everything easier to get, everyone will have one, no one will feel special by having it, and people will complain that there’s no “end game”. We already see that complaint about GW2, whether it’s true or not. Those players complaining about GW2 not having an “end game” are most likely the ones that rushed through as fast as they possibly could to get to level 80, complete the personal storyline and get their Legendary…..in the process, skipping a great deal of content that ArenaNet intended for them to play along the way.
It’s like opening Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, flipping to the last page, reading that Harry kills Voldemort, then saying…..“Well…duh. That’s a stupid ending.” Of course it’s stupid…..you didn’t bother reading the book, or the other 6 books. You weren’t able to see the whole picture….the journey.
The wonderful thing about the TP is that gold can be made by doing almost any type of content in the game. Certain activities might not be the most efficient methods of obtaining gold, but almost any activity in game will eventually generate enough gold for a player to obtain the items they want. The problem is, people see the most efficient ways to obtain these items and for some godforsaken reason decide that the time and effort involved by that method should be the extreme maximum investment that anyone should ever (under any system) go through to obtain it. Logic would dictate that the maximum investment should be one of the least efficient methods instead. The best baseline would actually be one that’s very much still possible: obtaining the item on your own without purchasing anything from the TP. But people see shortcuts and decide the fastest route is the only route.
I would agree with this assessment if certain markets were not still in the initial stages of inflation.
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