Guild Wars 2

ACT 1 is in: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Disrespect-in-gem-store/first#post3306486

Please read at least 1st post, but If you don’t want here is a summary:
I wrote before how gem store is just showing bad nature by making reskins and then the shameful (for me) option to buy mini Sparkles for real live money and get equivalent with 4k gems (since you can get it only by paying with real money).

ACT 2 now.

Now we get another gem store way to make people feel bad.
Many of us bought unlimited gathering tools, at least 1 set to swap it around characters. Some bought few and others like me bought (11 sets) for all of my characters.

It was fine for us all to be able to gather it all and have fun. You kinda pay a lot of money (really for every player that just play the game and spends money on it), for something that EVERYONE, just everyone pointed as a best in slot item.

I know. I know. ANet never said it will be true, but they make those items return 2 times, released another set of those unlimited gathering tools and everyone seemed to just like everyone thought: It’s best in slot with all different skins.

THAT WAS OUR MISTAKE. Don’t trust it. Don’t trust anything you see.
It’s just not true in GW2…

Now it’s thank you but since you didn’t pay fortune for the latest models you won’t get additional money from selling sprockets that drop like crazy with 20% chance per use.
Not to mention that this way they will just kill any value that sprockets could have in TP (great move, I tell you).

From another thread on the topic of mining picks:

This isn’t P2W people. You aren’t winning the game by getting a few more mats from a node.
This, however, is a slap to the face to people who bought previous mining picks.

So in the end we get a great imbalance in TP and slap in the face for everyone who ever bought the tools for themselves.

I don’t know what to do now?
Hold my purchases until something is labeled as legendary (games BiS)?
Or will it be also replaced by something else?

I thought they made nice gesture be making my tools bound to account even though I never needed it. But now I will know that every time I look on them or just use them I will know that I use inferior stuff. Some will say it’s OK with them, but for me for paying as much as I did for my tools – this is just disappointing and DISRESPECTFUL.

(Please NO DRAMA here)
I will also ask people who bother to read this post to the end:
How many slaps in the face do you need to stop caring for updates and leave GW2?

I personally am very invested a lot in GW2 since playing in GW1, but since my ACT 1, I started searching for alternative game, so I’m not yet out but I’m thinking about it a lot.
I guess I will see how many slaps is my limit. How many is yours?

BiS is time sensitive. If something is said to be BiS, it’s only valid at the point in time it was said at.

The unlimited gathering tools were never future-proof BiS because they were limited to the Orichalcum level. What happens in an expansion when something greater is added? Expect new unlimited tools for that level.

The same goes for legendaries. They’re BiS level 80, but that doesn’t mean they’re BiS level 81+. Anything can happen.

And I think if Legendaries will not be BiS for every level cap you will see how many people will leave GW2.

The same is my feeling towards buying 11 sets of tools that will probably be all made inferior just like pickaxe is now.

We were supposed to play the game that won’t make us run in endless gear treadmill, but if I spend thousands of gems for inferior tools it’s OK, because it’s not really a gear?

Well, for me it is.

Also don’t go with the ascended because people already addressed the issue in CDI and basically it was like: “Another tier and GW2 will loose a lot of people and they have to make it way easier to get them because people are that much dissatisfied with the ascended crafting and grind around it”.

For me that doesn’t make it OK to use similar practices to the tools
I see many people who aren’t happy with that and I REALLY HOPE THEY WONT STOP POSTING ABOUT IT UNTIL THE ISSUE WILL BE RESOLVED!

I agree with you, with this move they made me an unsatisfied customer.
And an unsatisfied customer does not buy again, and that is what I plan to do, if the situation will not change.

As for your request, I advise you to make a post at the accounts forum, asking if you qualify for a refund. Gaile reads that forum every day, and she has the power to change things. She is the one who initiated the solution with the reskin problem, and I appreciate her very much.

While I agree that the new pick is walking a thin line, there’s no real disrespect in the Gem Store. All items are meant for conveniences, and require no real world money to purchase. Getting mad that a current item is better than your previously purchased one, is like getting mad at Toyota because their new 2014 Corolla is better than your 2010 one. It’s just silly.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

While I agree that the new pick is walking a thin line, there’s no real disrespect in the Gem Store. All items are meant for conveniences, and require no real world money to purchase. Getting mad that a current item is better than your previously purchased one, is like getting mad at Toyota because their new 2014 Corolla is better than your 2010 one. It’s just silly.

Or because the 2014 Corolla made in January is better than the 2014 Corolla made in August.

Edit: Changed the month for accuracy

TooBz.3065:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

While I agree that the new pick is walking a thin line, there’s no real disrespect in the Gem Store. All items are meant for conveniences, and require no real world money to purchase. Getting mad that a current item is better than your previously purchased one, is like getting mad at Toyota because their new 2014 Corolla is better than your 2010 one. It’s just silly.

Or because the 2014 Corolla made in January is better than the 2014 Corolla made in August.

Edit: Changed the month for accuracy

If you like the newer model over the older one, simply buy the new one. Both are functionally the same, only one has a minor improvement.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

While I agree that the new pick is walking a thin line, there’s no real disrespect in the Gem Store. All items are meant for conveniences, and require no real world money to purchase. Getting mad that a current item is better than your previously purchased one, is like getting mad at Toyota because their new 2014 Corolla is better than your 2010 one. It’s just silly.

Nonsense. It isn’t like that at all. This is a pixelated set of programing code that doesn’t get better or worse as “milage” is applied, it gets better or worse as the devs decree it. There aren’t higher product costs, there aren’t more safety features, there isn’t anything except arbitrary developer decision, and it’s a bad decision.

Like the OP I’ve bought a lot of infinite gathering tools. In my mind this isn’t a thin red line, it’s a gaping chasm and clearly pay to win unless they make every orichulcum level pick in the game do the exact same thing. It’s not okay.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

No, they aren’t functionally the same. They have different functions. One gathers ore with a chance at gemstones, the other gathers ore and a chance of gemstones or sprockets. Different functions.

Aye.8392:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

No, they aren’t functionally the same. They have different functions. One gathers ore with a chance at gemstones, the other gathers ore and a chance of gemstones or sprockets. Different functions.

Same function: Unlimited mining
Minor improvement: 20% chance at extra goodies

Again, I agree that the new pick is a bad idea. But you can’t get mad over a business offering a “new and improved” version of a product.

Now that the pick has been out a little while more data is out on the mining pick. What the pick does is replace the extra ore you may have received from a swing with a sprocket.
So you may get:
-1x ore
-1x ore + 1x crafting material (gemstone)
-1x ore + 1x Sprocket

You can no longer get the 2x ore.
*mind you this is a small sample size

Ken DeBoer.9268:

Now that the pick has been out a little while more data is out on the mining pick. What the pick does is replace the extra ore you may have received from a swing with a sprocket.
So you may get:
-1x ore
-1x ore + 1x crafting material (gemstone)
-1x ore + 1x Sprocket

You can no longer get the 2x ore.
*mind you this is a small sample size

Good point. If that’s truly the case, then all the complainers will be embarrassed for the current rage.

I would prefer to get that extra Orichalcum ore than a sprocket, so I’ll be keeping my Molten Pick.

Ken DeBoer.9268:

Now that the pick has been out a little while more data is out on the mining pick. What the pick does is replace the extra ore you may have received from a swing with a sprocket.
So you may get:
-1x ore
-1x ore + 1x crafting material (gemstone)
-1x ore + 1x Sprocket

You can no longer get the 2x ore.
*mind you this is a small sample size

If this is true, which I doubt, Anet’s going to (justifiably) take heat for not being forthcoming enough on the specs of the product. Most people are buying this pick assuming the sprockets are an additional RNG item.

In any case, the existence of this pick means that Anet will have to be very careful about not letting the value of sprockets get too high (for example using them as ingredients in the next step of stat grind) or there will be outrage from players — even more so than right now.

Lastly, now that people know Anet is going to power creep the gathering tools, many will not buy because “I’ll wait for the next one, which will be better!”

Yeah, I’ve heard that theory. IF it’s true, then I will retract my complaint (but add the complaint that the way the Pick is supposed to work is not communicated very well). However, this claim seems to be mostly from anecdotal evidence; I’d like to see a dev clarify whether or not this is the way the Watchwork Pick is intended to work.

saw on reddit : http://i.imgur.com/Ec9fh1X.jpg
So i guess you can still have 2 ore + sprocket

Kaidaten.6954:

saw on reddit : http://i.imgur.com/Ec9fh1X.jpg
So i guess you can still have 2 ore + sprocket

That is a rich iron node which inherently can yield a 2x ore. Try it on a normal node. Rich iron is a unique node in the game. When you do it on a normal node you would see 4 × 1 ores, rich irons produce 1×2 ores.

I’ve gotten 2x ore with a mithril pick on a regular node. It can happen. No idea if there’s a better chance on Thursday night Vs Friday night due to you server WvW bonuses but it’s been happening for at least a year with conventional gathering tools and ordinary nodes.

I really don’t understand the pick complaints at all. Months ago they released an unlimited pick – a way to save money within the game. Very nice. Now they release a pick that is unlimited and can produce sprockets. Cool. It doesn’t unwind the months you spent knocking out nodes with your unlimited pick. It doesn’t make your unlimited pick useless. It is just a new shiny that some people will spend extra gems on to get sprockets – which can already be pulled from a node in your home instance.

I am looking forward to an upgraded Molten pick that gives Azurite.

What we’re mainly concerned about is the precedent that this pick sets. It sets the stage for power creep with gathering tools, since all future tools that ANet releases will either need to match or exceed what the Watchwork Pick can do, since players won’t buy it otherwise.

Then there’s the fact that we now have a gem store item that is undeniably better than anything players can normally obtain in game. The gem store previously used to sell items that offered only convenience or cosmetic benefits (and for the few items that did offer small benefits, such as boosters, you could acquire them through in game means); the Watchwork Pick breaks this rule.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TooBz.3065:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

While I agree that the new pick is walking a thin line, there’s no real disrespect in the Gem Store. All items are meant for conveniences, and require no real world money to purchase. Getting mad that a current item is better than your previously purchased one, is like getting mad at Toyota because their new 2014 Corolla is better than your 2010 one. It’s just silly.

Or because the 2014 Corolla made in January is better than the 2014 Corolla made in August.

Edit: Changed the month for accuracy

If you like the newer model over the older one, simply buy the new one. Both are functionally the same, only one has a minor improvement.

I think that you miss the point.
1st). adding drop like this is just wrong on economy and for all previous users.
2nd). you sell one car and buy newer with few extra $… Oh wait, you can only destroy the pick… GREAT.
3rd). How long will people be slapped in the face? For me in real world unsatisfied customers leave the shop. In this case it has to go with whole game, but as I stated I already am taking it personally and look for place when I won’t fell as ANet shop made me feel.

Aye.8392:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

While I agree that the new pick is walking a thin line, there’s no real disrespect in the Gem Store. All items are meant for conveniences, and require no real world money to purchase. Getting mad that a current item is better than your previously purchased one, is like getting mad at Toyota because their new 2014 Corolla is better than your 2010 one. It’s just silly.

Nonsense. It isn’t like that at all. This is a pixelated set of programing code that doesn’t get better or worse as “milage” is applied, it gets better or worse as the devs decree it. There aren’t higher product costs, there aren’t more safety features, there isn’t anything except arbitrary developer decision, and it’s a bad decision.

Like the OP I’ve bought a lot of infinite gathering tools. In my mind this isn’t a thin red line, it’s a gaping chasm and clearly pay to win unless they make every orichulcum level pick in the game do the exact same thing. It’s not okay.

100% Agreed…

Septemptus.7164:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TooBz.3065:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

While I agree that the new pick is walking a thin line, there’s no real disrespect in the Gem Store. All items are meant for conveniences, and require no real world money to purchase. Getting mad that a current item is better than your previously purchased one, is like getting mad at Toyota because their new 2014 Corolla is better than your 2010 one. It’s just silly.

Or because the 2014 Corolla made in January is better than the 2014 Corolla made in August.

Edit: Changed the month for accuracy

If you like the newer model over the older one, simply buy the new one. Both are functionally the same, only one has a minor improvement.

I think that you miss the point.
1st). adding drop like this is just wrong on economy and for all previous users.
2nd). you sell one car and buy newer with few extra $… Oh wait, you can only destroy the pick… GREAT.
3rd). How long will people be slapped in the face? For me in real world unsatisfied customers leave the shop. In this case it has to go with whole game, but as I stated I already am taking it personally and look for place when I won’t fell as ANet shop made me feel.

No, the points are here:

1) I agree that the new pick mechanics are not good. But on that note, we don’t know if these mechanics already existed, but were never publicized. With this, I’m talking about mining and getting bonus ores from the node. We’re not sure if the sprockets just replace the bonus ore you inherently have a chance to get.

2) Your dissatisfaction is based on your misunderstanding of how the Gem Store works. They offered an infinite mining tool once, and you expect another one to never come out? Even with the bonus sprockets you might get, it still doesn’t change the fact that your old tools still work. New tool has a new skin, and enhanced features. If you like it, buy it.

3) You’re making a mistake between “wanting” the new item, and “needing” the new item.

Smooth, are you gonna say that too when they start selling stuff like an ect-o-matic, or a darkgl-o-bmatic? Heck, when that happens, they’ll probably forget to replace the icon at first. This whole thing is an embarrassment to this company that was actually doing really well. They were worth defending.

It’s essentially two problems: 1) customers believe they were given false expectations (they paid 10 euros for kittening pixels for crying our loud!) and 2) it opens Pandora’s box of cash grabs.

1. You can shout all you want that one icon doesn’t resemble the other, but it’s the same bloody item, it’s just 30% better (I read on reddit the chance is 30%, not 20%). Especially when scarlet leaves the scene, which we know she will. It’s like passion flowers that dropped like candy from them gemstore boxes. Cheap at first, but check out their prices now.

2. Dragonite converter in the gemstore anyone? We’ve seen the threads, people think it would be a nice thing. Until they meet the item that everyone must have to not fall behind on everyone else.

Buttercup.5871:

Smooth, are you gonna say that too when they start selling stuff like an ect-o-matic, or a darkgl-o-bmatic? Heck, when that happens, they’ll probably forget to replace the icon at first. This whole thing is an embarrassment to this company that was actually doing really well. They were worth defending.

It’s essentially two problems: 1) customers believe they were given false expectations (they paid 10 euros for kittening pixels for crying our loud!) and 2) it opens Pandora’s box of cash grabs.

The rest of your post was talk about assumed items that may never exist, so I’ll address the only thing that’s tangible: the previous tools

There are no problems, except for the ones you make up on your own. Please provide me the quote from a Dev, or wording within the game that states they would never release new Gem Store gathering tools. Until you can provide this to me, all your complaints amount to shouting “the sky is falling”.

You paid Gems for a tool that you can use indefinitely. Either you paid real money for the Gems, or exchanged in game Gold for it. But what truly matters is that you can still use it. The functions of all infinite gathering tools is that you can use if forever on anything.

Again, all complainers are making the following mistake: They think they need the new tool, when in fact they just want it.

As for a real world example: A child at the supermarket crying for candy. The child doesn’t need the candy, but merely wants it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, all complainers are making the following mistake: They think they need the new tool, when in fact they just want it.

As for a real world example: A child at the supermarket crying for candy. The child doesn’t need the candy, but merely wants it.

No. I still don’t think you understand the problem with the situation, even though it is pretty clear in my opinion. The new pickaxe vs ANY other pickaxe will yield additional sprockets, which translates to additional income. Players who buy the new pickaxe will get more income from the same effort than the others. This is the definition of pay to win.
It’s not that the complainers want the new tool, it’s that if they don’t get it they will not have equal chances in terms of earning gold to those that bought it. Also while the new pick can be bought using ingame gold, I think is is safe to assume that the average player doesn’t have 90g lying in their banks just to buy a gathering item for one of their characters, and so the great majority of the new pick owners will have paid real money for it.

DCM.3654:

No. I still don’t think you understand the problem with the situation, even though it is pretty clear in my opinion. The new pickaxe vs ANY other pickaxe will yield additional sprockets, which translates to additional income. Players who buy the new pickaxe will get more income from the same effort than the others. This is the definition of pay to win.
It’s not that the complainers want the new tool, it’s that if they don’t get it they will not have equal chances in terms of earning gold to those that bought it. Also while the new pick can be bought using ingame gold, I think is is safe to assume that the average player doesn’t have 90g lying in their banks just to buy a gathering item for one of their characters, and so the great majority of the new pick owners will have paid real money for it.

You don’t seem to have a full grasp of what Pay 2 Win is. Allow me to quote myself to help you understand that this isn’t what you think it is:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sorry mate, but you have absolutely no idea what Pay 2 Win is. P2W means you “pay” to have an advantage over other players. So say Anet offered a Mega Legendary Greatsword that could be wielded by one hand. Say this sword can only be purchased via Gems obtained with real money (no Gem exchanges allowed). Then take two of these uber swords into PvP, and you then have “Pay 2 Win”. Why? Because you “paid” money to have a statistical advantage over a “non-paying” player.

Being able to get a couple of extra sprockets from mining does not come close to “winning”. I’ve said that it comes close, but it doesn’t cross that line.

To add, there’s no advantage over other players by having a 20% chance to get a few extra sprockets.

I don’t see how getting extra sprockets gives you an advantage over other players. Better gear doesn’t mean you’re going to win a 1v1 fight. More gold won’t make you a better player. Gold in this game is worthless in all honesty, you don’t perform better because you have ascended > exotics.

Florgknight.1589:

I don’t see how getting extra sprockets gives you an advantage over other players. Better gear doesn’t mean you’re going to win a 1v1 fight. More gold won’t make you a better player. Gold in this game is worthless in all honesty, you don’t perform better because you have ascended > exotics.

Getting extra sprockets doesn’t give you a statistical advantage over other players aside from the actual chance for sprockets, however, depending on your definition of perform, ascended gear may make you perform (get bigger numbers) over exotic. I agree that gold doesn’t necessarily make you a better player, but it’s only worthless if you are measuring in player skill or something like that. Gold can get you better gear, etc.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TooBz.3065:

Or because the 2014 Corolla made in January is better than the 2014 Corolla made in August.

Edit: Changed the month for accuracy

If you like the newer model over the older one, simply buy the new one. Both are functionally the same, only one has a minor improvement.

When you find yourself saying something along the lines of: “They’re the same, except for the differences,” you are probably doing something wrong.

I’m going to agree with Smooth Penguin on this one, particularly because Guild Wars 2 requires NO monthly subscription. I mean, if a game like WoW (haven’t played), which DOES have a subscription, does stuff like this, I’d probably be more than a little annoyed. Paying like $15 a month or whatever it is PLUS these extras? But GW2 isn’t like that, so I don’t mind buying some gems every other month or so to support them. I haven’t bought any of these gathering tools though, so it may not be my place to say anything.

If you really like the new mining pick so much, why don’t you just buy it? Regardless of whether you have the old one or not.

Yes the new mining tools HAVE TO BE BETTER than the old one, otherwise why bother making new mining tools to spur gem store sales?

I bought my car 10 years ago, so this year’s model better not have any new features over my 10 years old car. It is disrespectful and a slap in the face I tell you! And Windows 8 better not have more features than Windows 3.1 which I bought many many years ago. That would be disrespectful of Microsoft and a slap in the face!

DCM.3654:

No. I still don’t think you understand the problem with the situation, even though it is pretty clear in my opinion. The new pickaxe vs ANY other pickaxe will yield additional sprockets, which translates to additional income. Players who buy the new pickaxe will get more income from the same effort than the others. This is the definition of pay to win.
It’s not that the complainers want the new tool, it’s that if they don’t get it they will not have equal chances in terms of earning gold to those that bought it. Also while the new pick can be bought using ingame gold, I think is is safe to assume that the average player doesn’t have 90g lying in their banks just to buy a gathering item for one of their characters, and so the great majority of the new pick owners will have paid real money for it.

In the same way, those who have bought the old tool get to benefit from it longer than those who have bought the new tool. If you are counting that small 20% sprocket as gold, then you shouldn’t even have bought an unlimited tool because it makes no sense in terms of gold, but only in terms of convenience.

DeShadowWolf.6854:

When you find yourself saying something along the lines of: “They’re the same, except for the differences,” you are probably doing something wrong.

Nice try, but you need to not only read what I posted, but understand it as well. I said “Both are functionally the same, only one has a minor improvement.” That means both the old and new tool has infinite usage. To make it more simple, that means you can use both for ever and ever and ever on all ore types. So as you can see, they’re both the same in that regards.

I think you’re making a similar mistake that a lot of other people are making. There’s a difference between needing the new Watchwork pick, and wanting it. If you have the Molten pick already, you don’t “need” to have the Watchwork one, since they both work the same. You “want” it.

@smooth: I don’t want it. I don’t want power creep through gathering tools, either. Again, this is not about sprockets. Not yet, at least. Now it’s sprockets, next it will be a new pick, one that the sprocketpick-buyers wanted more than sprockets because the new “output” sells for much much more. Power creep, all the way. First it’s economic items, next it’s account bound items you cannot buy or acquire reliably in any other way.

Oh, and can I sell my old infinite pick on the TP to buy a better one? No. Phones, cars, those examples do not apply. No wear and tear, either. You’re entirely at the mercy of the gemstore; when it decides it needs money, it can simply re-introduce the same item you bought, just better.

DarkSpirit.7046:

I bought my car 10 years ago, so this year’s model better not have any new features over my 10 years old car. It is disrespectful and a slap in the face I tell you! And Windows 8 better not have more features than Windows 3.1 which I bought many many years ago. That would be disrespectful of Microsoft and a slap in the face!

I have given this analogy some thought and I was beginning to accept it when I realised what is wrong with it in my opinion: I am happy to buy a new Windows version, because when I bought the previous one it included cutting edge technology. They simply couldn’t have produced a better version, even if they wanted to, so with buying the new version I appreciate the development effort that was put into it. In the case of the mining picks however, there is no development or any effort involved in releasing a better one. It is simply an attempt to make players invest real money in the game continuously, just to be able to maintain their equal opportunities compared to others.

Also I completely agree that the additional income from sprockets is not very significant for now, but the existence of this pick – and the willingness of ANet to create such items – foreshadows even ‘better’ picks and other items, which will result in further increased extra income. (Additionally, in the case of sprockets we don’t even know of any other ways to source them aside from the home instance node after the Scarlett event is over, which means their price could increase significantly.)

DCM.3654:

I have given this analogy some thought and I was beginning to accept it when I realised what is wrong with it in my opinion: I am happy to buy a new Windows version, because when I bought the previous one it included cutting edge technology. They simply couldn’t have produced a better version, even if they wanted to, so with buying the new version I appreciate the development effort that was put into it. In the case of the mining picks however, there is no development or any effort involved in releasing a better one. It is simply an attempt to make players invest real money in the game continuously, just to be able to maintain their equal opportunities compared to others.

You can say the same thing about the old unlimited pick. It doesn’t take much coding effort to make such a pick, it can be as little effort as simply changing a variable to 0. But such is the nature of their business and the stuff sold in their gem store.

Also I completely agree that the additional income from sprockets is not very significant for now, but the existence of this pick – and the willingness of ANet to create such items – foreshadows even ‘better’ picks and other items, which will result in further increased extra income. (Additionally, in the case of sprockets we don’t even know of any other ways to source them aside from the home instance node after the Scarlett event is over, which means their price could increase significantly.)

Yes it is a slippery slope but you should know ArenaNet’s business model by now. My guess is that they ran out of new ideas for their gem store and simply recycled an old idea that has worked very well in the past – the unlimited gathering tools but now with a new twist added.

Most of the people that complained are those that have already bought the old unlimited gathering tools and they are trying to get theirs upgraded with the latest features, by complaining, without paying extra. It is like buying Microsoft office years ago and wanting to get free unlimited upgrades from then on with the latest features. Do you think Microsoft would have survived if they do that?

In the same way, ArenaNet has to keep getting income. They can’t pay salaries for just one month and expect everyone to continue to work for free from then on for an unlimited time. Some of those income would be from those players who have already bought the old unlimited gathering tools, like the new gathering tools better, and decide to buy them even if that means destroying their old gathering tools (or so they hope). Just like uninstalling your old Microsoft office for a new version.

Yes waiting longer to buy tend to give you the better tool, better software, better computer, better car, etc. But they know that you can’t just wait forever. If I am ArenaNet, I would also sell a consumable (cheaper than 1000 gems, of course) that would upgrade an old unlimited pick to the new one. But that is just me.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

While I agree that the new pick is walking a thin line, there’s no real disrespect in the Gem Store. All items are meant for conveniences, and require no real world money to purchase. Getting mad that a current item is better than your previously purchased one, is like getting mad at Toyota because their new 2014 Corolla is better than your 2010 one. It’s just silly.

This is a false equivalency.
To be a true equivalency Toyota would need to be:
-The only manufacturer of everything
-The only entity conducting research into new products while maintaining a blackout on said research
-Able to change the laws of physics

The progression of items offered within the BLTP can not be compared to the real world progression of manufactured goods. The BLTP creates product progression only as it offers new products.

Such a marketplace can be very unfair to the consumer.

Psientist.6437:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

While I agree that the new pick is walking a thin line, there’s no real disrespect in the Gem Store. All items are meant for conveniences, and require no real world money to purchase. Getting mad that a current item is better than your previously purchased one, is like getting mad at Toyota because their new 2014 Corolla is better than your 2010 one. It’s just silly.

This is a false equivalency.
To be a true equivalency Toyota would need to be:
-The only manufacturer of everything
-The only entity conducting research into new products while maintaining a blackout on said research
-Able to change the laws of physics

The progression of items offered within the BLTP can not be compared to the real world progression of manufactured goods. The BLTP creates product progression only as it offers new products.

Such a marketplace can be very unfair to the consumer.

I don’t know why you guys are such cheapskates. If you really like the new version then uninstall (i.e. destroy) your old version of the unlimited pick and buy the new version. Just like you would uninstall your old version of Microsoft office to install the new version. This is what companies do to continue to survive, to keep coming out with newer and better versions of the product to entice people to buy.

If the newer version doesn’t entice you to buy them then simply don’t buy. Demanding for free upgrades forever, after a 1-time payment, is just lame.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Psientist.6437:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

While I agree that the new pick is walking a thin line, there’s no real disrespect in the Gem Store. All items are meant for conveniences, and require no real world money to purchase. Getting mad that a current item is better than your previously purchased one, is like getting mad at Toyota because their new 2014 Corolla is better than your 2010 one. It’s just silly.

This is a false equivalency.
To be a true equivalency Toyota would need to be:
-The only manufacturer of everything
-The only entity conducting research into new products while maintaining a blackout on said research
-Able to change the laws of physics

The progression of items offered within the BLTP can not be compared to the real world progression of manufactured goods. The BLTP creates product progression only as it offers new products.

Such a marketplace can be very unfair to the consumer.

I don’t know why you guys are such cheapskates. If you really like the new version then uninstall (i.e. destroy) your old version of the unlimited pick and buy the new version. Just like you would uninstall your old version of Microsoft office to install the new version. This is what companies do to continue to survive, to keep coming out with newer and better versions of the product to entice people to buy.

If the newer version doesn’t entice you to buy them then simply don’t buy. Demanding for free upgrades forever, after a 1-time payment, is just lame.

Why does your response make me think of W. C. Fields? If you ask any manufacturer what the biggest problem with consumers is, they would agree with you; consumers don’t spend enough money and think too much about how they spend their money.

On the surface some folks are asking for upgrades, but what they are actually asking for is a product release model that does not devalue their past purchases, a model that does not leave them feeling like a sucker or have them counting how many times they have been fooled.

Psientist.6437:

On the surface some folks are asking for upgrades, but what they are actually asking for is a product release model that does not devalue their past purchases, a model that does not leave them feeling like a sucker or have them counting how many times they have been fooled.

But it has always been like this with the world. The new version of Windows is suppose to be better (i.e. more features) than the previous one and you would have to pay to upgrade to that newer version. Same with other software like Microsoft Office or computers. I never complained when newer PCs come with newer and better features than the one I bought 10 years ago. I never complained when newer Toyotas come with better features than the one I bought 10 years ago. So on and so forth.

The reason why these companies bother to keep building better versions of their old products is because they need to entice people to keep buying from them. ArenaNet has the same need, so I don’t see what is so surprising or disappointing about their actions. This should be expected. How else are they going to survive? Furthermore, they have never ever promised that the molten pick would be the best-in-class pick forever and ever. Some of you guys just imagined this extra sales clause in your heads.
They have also never promised free upgrades to the best-in-class pick with all its features forever and ever. That is another thing that complainers HOPE for but that doesn’t means ArenaNet is obliged to provide for free. It has never been in their sales agreement when they bought the molten pick.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sorry mate, but you have absolutely no idea what Pay 2 Win is. P2W means you “pay” to have an advantage over other players. So say Anet offered a Mega Legendary Greatsword that could be wielded by one hand. Say this sword can only be purchased via Gems obtained with real money (no Gem exchanges allowed). Then take two of these uber swords into PvP, and you then have “Pay 2 Win”. Why? Because you “paid” money to have a statistical advantage over a “non-paying” player.

Being able to get a couple of extra sprockets from mining does not come close to “winning”. I’ve said that it comes close, but it doesn’t cross that line.

Well, for me You are the one who doesn’t get one thing.
P2Win isn’t about the scale but the fact.

If you get ANY advantage with gem store it’s still an advantage and it’s P2Win for me.
If you need such an obvious advantage like wilding greatsword by 1 hand to make you believe that you are threated better… That’s just the fact that you choose to dismiss little stuff.

Yet as it was stated:

No. I still don’t think you understand the problem with the situation, even though it is pretty clear in my opinion. The new pickaxe vs ANY other pickaxe will yield additional sprockets, which translates to additional income. Players who buy the new pickaxe will get more income from the same effort than the others. This is the definition of pay to win.
It’s not that the complainers want the new tool, it’s that if they don’t get it they will not have equal chances in terms of earning gold to those that bought it.

Thats the point. Gem store makes chances not equal across the game in terms of gathering gold (not to mention crashing economy around sprockets).

DarkSpirit.7046:

If you really like the new mining pick so much, why don’t you just buy it? Regardless of whether you have the old one or not.

Yes the new mining tools HAVE TO BE BETTER than the old one, otherwise why bother making new mining tools to spur gem store sales?

I bought my car 10 years ago, so this year’s model better not have any new features over my 10 years old car. It is disrespectful and a slap in the face I tell you! And Windows 8 better not have more features than Windows 3.1 which I bought many many years ago. That would be disrespectful of Microsoft and a slap in the face!

I already answered this before, but I can send it to you again:

2nd). You can sell one car and buy newer with few extra $… Oh wait, you can only destroy the old pick… GREAT.

Also keep in mind that you can buy cars from different companies, you can have 3 operating systems that will run GW2: Windows, Linux, Mac, yet Black Lion Trading Company is the only and lately very bad supplier.

Basically game items aren’t real live items, they don’t have the same values of making and selling, but the also don’t have the same other characteristics, so if you want to show similarities, please think about it a bit more and provide good examples.

I write this just because your points are just totally off witch each item you want to point as similarity.

If you want better items I think that skin variety would help this game a lot… (read more posts on this topic on the forum so you won’t take it only as my opinion)

I wouldn’t be so bothered by it if it wasn’t for a triad of issues I think this has caused;

1. Players who aren’t here right now are fundamentally screwed. And honestly, a lot of people are fed up overall for countless reasons.

2. There is honestly no reason to buy the other two now. None at all. Very very rarely do people prioritize visuals over value. If you can’t get the same results from the Molten. People will put it as second tier. That’s the reality of the situation, unless they create some sort of “Pick-Trans-Stone”.

3. THEY JUST SOLD A kitten OLD PICK less than a month ago. I don’t mind a year, I get that. But really? 3 weeks? That’s just unnecessarily creating buyer’s remorse. Good work on your part , ANet.

For me personally, part of me wants to rejoin and quickly get this stuff while it’s around. Even though I’ll probably leave after.

And part of me feels like saying “Nope. Fix yourself, ANet, and perhaps I may return”. Problem is neither will probably give good results.

DarkSpirit.7046:

In the same way, those who have bought the old tool get to benefit from it longer than those who have bought the new tool. If you are counting that small 20% sprocket as gold, then you shouldn’t even have bought an unlimited tool because it makes no sense in terms of gold, but only in terms of convenience.

The point of this is that old tools were convenience, but new ones are income generators that give you small but still an advantage. So next items could get you more and more advantage since you stated:

Yes the new mining tools HAVE TO BE BETTER than the old one, otherwise why bother making new mining tools to spur gem store sales?

So basically you ask for more in game advantage with each new item they add. Thats asking for Pay2Win in the face man… Really?!…
There are plenty of games like that out there… Maybe you need to find one for you?

DarkSpirit.7046:

If the newer version doesn’t entice you to buy them then simply don’t buy. Demanding for free upgrades forever, after a 1-time payment, is just lame.

I don’t.

I WANT THAT ADVANTAGE TO BE REMOVED SO ALL ITEMS CAN BE THE SAME GRADE AGAIN WITH ONLY A CONVENIENCE FOR NOT BUYING ONE EACH 33 NODES.

That is the point you fail to see…

Psientist.6437:

On the surface some folks are asking for upgrades, but what they are actually asking for is a product release model that does not devalue their past purchases, a model that does not leave them feeling like a sucker or have them counting how many times they have been fooled.

I love you could see that. That means we still get peoples who understand what some of us write. Thats encouraging a lot. Thank you.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Psientist.6437:

On the surface some folks are asking for upgrades, but what they are actually asking for is a product release model that does not devalue their past purchases, a model that does not leave them feeling like a sucker or have them counting how many times they have been fooled.

But it has always been like this with the world. The new version of Windows is suppose to be better (i.e. more features) than the previous one and you would have to pay to upgrade to that newer version. Same with other software like Microsoft Office or computers. I never complained when newer PCs come with newer and better features than the one I bought 10 years ago. I never complained when newer Toyotas come with better features than the one I bought 10 years ago. So on and so forth.

The reason why these companies bother to keep building better versions of their old products is because they need to entice people to keep buying from them. ArenaNet has the same need, so I don’t see what is so surprising or disappointing about their actions. This should be expected. How else are they going to survive? Furthermore, they have never ever promised that the molten pick would be the best-in-class pick forever and ever. Some of you guys just imagined this extra sales clause in your heads.
They have also never promised free upgrades to the best-in-class pick with all its features forever and ever. That is another thing that complainers HOPE for but that doesn’t means ArenaNet is obliged to provide for free. It has never been in their sales agreement when they bought the molten pick.

Let me start by setting the record straight. I have the MAMP. I don’t plan to ever buy the sprocket pick and it has nothing to do with the complaints on the forums. I am perfectly happy with the on I have and don’t need sprockets. I don’t care what anet does so I have no horse in this race.

Having said that, your constant analogies about MS office and cars are not even close to applicable here. First off, when you buy windows you do get free upgrades for a LONG time. If this particular pick was released 10 years after the other one and people were complaining, I would be inclined to agree with you. However, it was released 2 months ago. If Microsoft released new versions of windows every two months and made you buy the latest version to get all the new features at a price tag of $129 would you accept that?

To your point about people wanting free upgrades: I think a lot of people would be happy to be able to spend 100 gems to add on the additional ability to get sprockets. But, instead they would have to flush $12 down the drain by getting rid of their old pick and buy the new pick for another $12 and then another in two months and so on…. I think for the most part people don’t mind spending money on gems to support the game, but stuff like this is crazy and you can’t deny that.

I also find it very interesting that they don’t mention anything about the ability to mine sprockets in the description in the gem store. I don’t know why, but it has suspicious behavior written all over it.

cranked.3812:

Let me start by setting the record straight. I have the MAMP. I don’t plan to ever buy the sprocket pick and it has nothing to do with the complaints on the forums. I am perfectly happy with the on I have and don’t need sprockets. I don’t care what anet does so I have no horse in this race.

The thing is: if they add mining Azures that go with high prices now will it be an advantage that again will push people to spend money? Or maybe should they choose some less valuable resource?!

The core idea is just wrong…

cranked.3812:

Having said that, your constant analogies about MS office and cars are not even close to applicable here. First off, when you buy windows you do get free upgrades for a LONG time. If this particular pick was released 10 years after the other one and people were complaining, I would be inclined to agree with you. However, it was released 2 months ago. If Microsoft released new versions of windows every two months and made you buy the latest version to get all the new features at a price tag of $129 would you accept that?

To your point about people wanting free upgrades: I think a lot of people would be happy to be able to spend 100 gems to add on the additional ability to get sprockets. But, instead they would have to flush $12 down the drain by getting rid of their old pick and buy the new pick for another $12 and then another in two months and so on…. I think for the most part people don’t mind spending money on gems to support the game, but stuff like this is crazy and you can’t deny that.

Agreed.

cranked.3812:

Having said that, your constant analogies about MS office and cars are not even close to applicable here. First off, when you buy windows you do get free upgrades for a LONG time. If this particular pick was released 10 years after the other one and people were complaining, I would be inclined to agree with you. However, it was released 2 months ago. If Microsoft released new versions of windows every two months and made you buy the latest version to get all the new features at a price tag of $129 would you accept that?

You would be surprised that most people do not have a free upgrade on their windows. I am still using windows 7 and I don’t have a free upgrade to windows 8. Unless you opted to pay extra for your “free” upgrades, which most people don’t.

And the timing has nothing to do with it. Windows 8 can come 3 months after windows 7 and it would still be the same deal. So in answer to your question Microsoft can charge whatever they want, it is the customers that would vote with their money.

In the same way, why complain about the new pick, if you don’t like then just don’t buy it. It is only $12, hardly “crazy” at all, I spent more than twice that on lunch today. The fact is, if they dont keep making better upgrades in their gem store then I would not feel the need to buy gems from them.

If you have done the calculations, it would be obvious that even the old unlimited pick is not worth its cost. The only justification for buying it would be for convenience. So why dwell on the cost now? That ship has already sailed.

Septemptus.7164:

Also keep in mind that you can buy cars from different companies, you can have 3 operating systems that will run GW2: Windows, Linux, Mac, yet Black Lion Trading Company is the only and lately very bad supplier.

But you already know that before you bought the game don’t you?

Basically game items aren’t real live items, they don’t have the same values of making and selling, but the also don’t have the same other characteristics, so if you want to show similarities, please think about it a bit more and provide good examples.

Isn’t that the same case with the old unlimited pick? Yet so many of you guys bought them. If you don’t think that they are worth spending the gems on, then the point is moot, there is no point arguing, simply don’t buy.

The point of this is that old tools were convenience, but new ones are income generators that give you small but still an advantage. So next items could get you more and more advantage since you stated:

The old tools are also income generators. If you don’t have to keep buying gathering tools as you mine for orichalcum, what happens to your income? It generates.

20% chance for a 40c item. So that’s 8c a node. Oh no that new gold spigot will ruin the game’s economy for good.

Yeah, right.

Septemptus.7164:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sorry mate, but you have absolutely no idea what Pay 2 Win is. P2W means you “pay” to have an advantage over other players. So say Anet offered a Mega Legendary Greatsword that could be wielded by one hand. Say this sword can only be purchased via Gems obtained with real money (no Gem exchanges allowed). Then take two of these uber swords into PvP, and you then have “Pay 2 Win”. Why? Because you “paid” money to have a statistical advantage over a “non-paying” player.

Being able to get a couple of extra sprockets from mining does not come close to “winning”. I’ve said that it comes close, but it doesn’t cross that line.

Well, for me You are the one who doesn’t get one thing.
P2Win isn’t about the scale but the fact.

If you get ANY advantage with gem store it’s still an advantage and it’s P2Win for me.
If you need such an obvious advantage like wilding greatsword by 1 hand to make you believe that you are threated better… That’s just the fact that you choose to dismiss little stuff.

Yet as it was stated:

No. I still don’t think you understand the problem with the situation, even though it is pretty clear in my opinion. The new pickaxe vs ANY other pickaxe will yield additional sprockets, which translates to additional income. Players who buy the new pickaxe will get more income from the same effort than the others. This is the definition of pay to win.
It’s not that the complainers want the new tool, it’s that if they don’t get it they will not have equal chances in terms of earning gold to those that bought it.

Thats the point. Gem store makes chances not equal across the game in terms of gathering gold (not to mention crashing economy around sprockets).

You have no idea what Pay 2 Win is. Please understand this. Your assume your understand it, because in your mind, you’ve connected that term with the negativity surrounding it. You then took that negativity, and connected it to your dislike that your current infinite tool is not as good as the new one. At this point, A + B does not equal C.

Pay 2 Win games are those where “PAYing” customers have an advantage over non-paying ones. If I spend $50 on an awesome epic weapon that guarantees 100% critical attacks forever, that’s P2W. If I spend $100 on a better weapon that gives 100% critical attacks + life steal, that means my weapon is better than someone who spent $50, that’s P2W. Having an infinite tool that gives me a 20% change to get a couple of extra items is NOT P2W.

It seems that you just want to find an excuse to attack Anet. Most people understand that GW2 is not a P2W game. But here’s something else. Even if (and that’s a big if) the new Watchwork pick was P2W in another game, technically it can’t be P2W in GW2, because you can get Gems without spending any real money. Gold exchanges to Gems prevent anyone ever trying to call GW2 a Pay 2 Win game. P2W games require spending real money. If there’s a way to obtain virtual game currency without spending money, then it’s not in the P2W category.

@smooth penguin: By your line of argument they might as well sell supreme sigils and runes of the overlord (account bound) in the gemstore. And 100% crit food (account bound). And special uberskills for tpvp. Because you can convert gold to gems, right?

Wrong. Sorry, that’s too easy an argument. It’s more complex than that. You can’t smother all p2w arguments just because we can convert gold to gems.