Guild Wars 2

Serious question here. Some of the comments in a few of the prolific precursor threads got me thinking about the sinks in the economy…. here’s what I see:

1) T3 armor at 100g+ / set is a a sink, but there are 8 dungeon looks that provide alternatives to the single T3 set, and the fact that the T3 set must be transmuted onto exotic armor makes it a less appealing sink…

2) 100g for Icey Runestones for the legendary, + the 10g recipies required along the way.

3) Armor repair and waypoint costs, though I feel those are trivial…

4) Listing / selling fees at the TP.

5) Commander

so, I’m thinking on the question: What do you do with a lot of gold? What do you do to promote people pouring coin into a bucket for something of worth…..

I know that the Gem Store can provide a sort of gold sink, as converting Gold -> Gems is a good method of getting gem store items, but I really think we’re missing a good gold sink that people will hit with more frequency.

I think the Lost Orrian Jewelry Boxes are an excellent Karma Sink, and most people are happy with them. What would it take to do something similar for Gold?

Do we need more high end skins that are available for gold? 50g weapons from merchants?

What do people think? Would the economy benefit from more gold sinks?

I think there are enough gold sinks. Saving for a legendary is a pretty huge gold sink. I’ll be saving for a year+ before I can afford one. Gold sinks are going to affect players differently depending on the time they put into the game and where they spend that time. While 3s waypoint fees might be trivial to a dungeon grinder that puts in 4hrs a day, it’s not trivial to a pve’r who plays 4 hours a week.

I pve mostly, casually and I’m far from swimming in gold.

I think this is something that John Smith looks at every day. Right now I can’t imagine how the gold sinks we have in this game are enough. There are thousands of players playing and vendoring their greens/blues, while only a handful actually utilizing the large gold sinks.

However, if you looked at the interview of Smith awhile back on economics and games, they did make a good point that you do not want to design a game that mimics real life too much because it’s not fun. So from that point of view I think having some inflation due to the lack of gold sinks is best for the game. But from a pure, no-fun standpoint, absolutely not!

Olfinbedwere.5049:

I think there are enough gold sinks. Saving for a legendary is a pretty huge gold sink. I’ll be saving for a year+ before I can afford one. Gold sinks are going to affect players differently depending on the time they put into the game and where they spend that time. While 3s waypoint fees might be trivial to a dungeon grinder that puts in 4hrs a day, it’s not trivial to a pve’r who plays 4 hours a week.

I pve mostly, casually and I’m far from swimming in gold.

Keep in mind that gold sinks are transactions that take gold out of the economy – not items.

So the only gold sink for legendaries are the Icy Runestones, and that alone is not sufficient since not everyone is undertaking a legendary or have even reached point of buying the Runestones.

Vol.5241:

Keep in mind that gold sinks are transactions that take gold out of the economy – not items.

So the only gold sink for legendaries are the Icy Runestones, and that alone is not sufficient since not everyone is undertaking a legendary or have even reached point of buying the Runestones.

You have to count tp fees as part of the legendary gold sink tho. It’s not reasonably possible to craft a leg without trading on the tp.

Vol.5241:

Keep in mind that gold sinks are transactions that take gold out of the economy – not items..

Why not count items? Items = gold. You counted them as a source of gold, “There are thousands of players playing and vendoring their greens/blues..” If people are cranking items into the Forge trying for a precursor or just trying for upgrades, that’s removing potential “gold”, it’s vendor credit value, from the game.

Transactions that take items out of the game take gold out of the game. Or people salvaging and crafting depending on the vendor value of the original vs the product, there is probably usually a loss of “gold” or value. That’s a gold sink. Craft mats purchased from vendors are another gold sink, and training manuals, and retraining, I retrain about once every two weeks.

And harvesting tools, salvaging kits, food. This game has plenty of gold sinks.

With the price of Precursors, Legendaries definitely need less gold sinks. The Icy Runestones should be removed.

Vol.5241:

I think this is something that John Smith looks at every day. Right now I can’t imagine how the gold sinks we have in this game are enough. There are thousands of players playing and vendoring their greens/blues, while only a handful actually utilizing the large gold sinks.

However, if you looked at the interview of Smith awhile back on economics and games, they did make a good point that you do not want to design a game that mimics real life too much because it’s not fun. So from that point of view I think having some inflation due to the lack of gold sinks is best for the game. But from a pure, no-fun standpoint, absolutely not!

I remember the interview, and the Sinks vs. Faucets discussion, but I think the coment you make about only a handful utilizing the large gold sinks rings true in a significant way.

And in no means do I think we need a required gold sink. I think armor repair, WP costs, and TP fees have that part of the sink system well covered.

What I think though is that the cosmetic rewards side of things is lacking in sinks….

8 Exotic Armor sets for tokens, 1 exotic set for Karma, 1 lvl 80 rare set per race for coin.

All t3 cultural weapons are karma

Exotic weapons for dungeon tokens.

While exotics can be crafted, and some people see this as a gold source of exotics, it is player driven, and not a true sink asside from the TP fee.

What kind of sinks would people like to see in the game in the sub 100g range? The sub 10g range?

Again, I’m all for cosmetic sinks, I just think the game is lacking in things to siphon money out of the economy.

Oglaf.1074:

With the price of Precursors, Legendaries definitely need less gold sinks. The Icy Runestones should be removed.

So either you want the precursors to cost more money or you don’t understand the effect inflation (aka increasing total gold amount) has on the TP pricing…

Olfinbedwere.5049:

Vol.5241:

Keep in mind that gold sinks are transactions that take gold out of the economy – not items..

Why not count items? Items = gold. You counted them as a source of gold, “There are thousands of players playing and vendoring their greens/blues..” If people are cranking items into the Forge trying for a precursor or just trying for upgrades, that’s removing potential “gold”, it’s vendor credit value, from the game.

Transactions that take items out of the game take gold out of the game. Or people salvaging and crafting depending on the vendor value of the original vs the product, there is probably usually a loss of “gold” or value. That’s a gold sink. Craft mats purchased from vendors are another gold sink, and training manuals, and retraining, I retrain about once every two weeks.

And harvesting tools, salvaging kits, food. This game has plenty of gold sinks.

The forge is not a gold sink.
Sure, if you make the argument that gold sink of items is the vendor price of them – but when you have something as valuable as T6 or rare items, no one in their right mind would vendor those. So items by themselves when you throw them in a forge are not gold sinks.

If you sell them on the outpost – sure – there is the BL fee that takes it’s 15% cut.

Oglaf.1074:

With the price of Precursors, Legendaries definitely need less gold sinks. The Icy Runestones should be removed.

Good idea, give players wanting a legendary 100g more to spend on a precursor. That won’t raise the price of precursors at all. /sarcasm

CassieGold.7460:

Vol.5241:

I think this is something that John Smith looks at every day. Right now I can’t imagine how the gold sinks we have in this game are enough. There are thousands of players playing and vendoring their greens/blues, while only a handful actually utilizing the large gold sinks.

However, if you looked at the interview of Smith awhile back on economics and games, they did make a good point that you do not want to design a game that mimics real life too much because it’s not fun. So from that point of view I think having some inflation due to the lack of gold sinks is best for the game. But from a pure, no-fun standpoint, absolutely not!

I remember the interview, and the Sinks vs. Faucets discussion, but I think the coment you make about only a handful utilizing the large gold sinks rings true in a significant way.

And in no means do I think we need a required gold sink. I think armor repair, WP costs, and TP fees have that part of the sink system well covered.

What I think though is that the cosmetic rewards side of things is lacking in sinks….

8 Exotic Armor sets for tokens, 1 exotic set for Karma, 1 lvl 80 rare set per race for coin.

All t3 cultural weapons are karma

Exotic weapons for dungeon tokens.

While exotics can be crafted, and some people see this as a gold source of exotics, it is player driven, and not a true sink asside from the TP fee.

What kind of sinks would people like to see in the game in the sub 100g range? The sub 10g range?

Again, I’m all for cosmetic sinks, I just think the game is lacking in things to siphon money out of the economy.

Gamble chests. % chance to reward you globs, rares, exotics, skins, but most of the time reward you an item that vendors for less than what it costs to gamble.

It seems to me you did not list the ~9G for order armour.
(edit: oh, I guess that’s the one rare set you mentioned, forget it)

I had an idea when someone mentioned player housing is supposed to be coming soon.

It is my hope that if this system is indeed coming, that they dont make a large gold requirement for it. For housing, the perfect requirements for it that I thougt of would help the economy.

Depending on quality of house, a player could be required to “spend” stacks of various woods and ores. That hopefully will get some of the mass bulk of these out of the TP and raise the values of them. As it is, I dont gather wood anymore, except ancient, as it is worthless. By making this a requirement to get your house, people will start buying it out of the TP and therefore we get it to a reasonable price that makes it worthwhile to gather and sell

just my 2 copper

lordozone.9167:

I had an idea when someone mentioned player housing is supposed to be coming soon.

It is my hope that if this system is indeed coming, that they dont make a large gold requirement for it. For housing, the perfect requirements for it that I thougt of would help the economy.

Depending on quality of house, a player could be required to “spend” stacks of various woods and ores. That hopefully will get some of the mass bulk of these out of the TP and raise the values of them. As it is, I dont gather wood anymore, except ancient, as it is worthless. By making this a requirement to get your house, people will start buying it out of the TP and therefore we get it to a reasonable price that makes it worthwhile to gather and sell

just my 2 copper

Not that I find this to be a bad idea, but it’s not a significant sink as it would only drain money from the economy via TP fees.

If you wanted player housing to be a sink, you’d want to look at something like the GW1 system for a guild hall…. certain upgrades (a bank access NPC, a crafting station, what have you) would have a fixed gold cost that you would pay to an NPC to unlock for your housing.

In terms of my inventory, the gold sinks are enough (especially if you count Gem store transactions via Gold). However, I would not mind more gold sinks being implemented.

Really the only gold sinks needed are for those people with more than 1000 gold. For players who tend to maintain between 3-10 gold, anything more would break them out of being able to maintain that amount. Everyone in my guild has less than 100g.

Esplen.3940:

In terms of my inventory, the gold sinks are enough (especially if you count Gem store transactions via Gold). However, I would not mind more gold sinks being implemented.

….that’s not really a sink when gold is simultaneously coming out to people that sell gems for gold.

It’s too late, the people with money will always have money since they aren’t ever going to spend in a way that they’ll lose money, meanwhile the average player will rarely ever have more than 50g. Precursors will always be expensive as a result of this.

Lenneth.1372:

Really the only gold sinks needed are for those people with more than 1000 gold. For players who tend to maintain between 3-10 gold, anything more would break them out of being able to maintain that amount. Everyone in my guild has less than 100g.

Sinks should never ‘break’ a player. The purpose of a sink is to funnel money out of the economy into the black hole of an NPC, rather than funnel money from Player A to Player B via the TP.

T3 armor is a sink, you get something cool that you want, and your money vanishes from the economy, no player recieves that money, it goes off into the ether.

Hmmm. It’s an interesting question. Personally, I don’t think it needs any additional sinks. I feel (IMO, I may be completely wrong) but the TP listing fee/tax is one of the biggest sinks this game has, and it’s something that actually scales with in-game inflation. It’s quite genius, really.

Though I think one of the biggest problems in this game is that, between the Legendary and Exotic tier, there just isn’t anything to spend money on (as posters here have alluded to). There some unique exotics like Volcanus/Foefire, sure, but they aren’t direct gold sinks (more indirect if player bought mats off the TP).

Mmeh, but just because the way the TP listing fee/taxes are structured, I think we’re fine as where we are.

I would like to see more of a progressive gold sink. ie…the more you make , the more you pay/get taxed. So instead of a 15% flat tax for listing have a tax on the gold exiting the tp.

For example: Over the course of a week you collect 1g from the tp, then you would pay a 5% tax on that. If you collected 100g in that week you’d pay a 20% tax…so on so forth

I’m not exactly sure how it would work out but imo it would be better than the regressive system we have now.

Essence Snow.3194:

I would like to see more of a progressive gold sink. ie…the more you make , the more you pay/get taxed. So instead of a 15% flat tax for listing have a tax on the gold exiting the tp.

For example: Over the course of a week you collect 1g from the tp, then you would pay a 5% tax on that. If you collected 100g in that week you’d pay a 20% tax…so on so forth

I’m not exactly sure how it would work out but imo it would be better than the regressive system we have now.

Then the superrich will jump ships to avoid the high taxes. Perhaps apply for citizenship in EVE?

Vol.5241:

The forge is not a gold sink.
Sure, if you make the argument that gold sink of items is the vendor price of them – but when you have something as valuable as T6 or rare items, no one in their right mind would vendor those. So items by themselves when you throw them in a forge are not gold sinks.

If you sell them on the outpost – sure – there is the BL fee that takes it’s 15% cut.

Vol.5241:

The forge is not a gold sink.
Sure, if you make the argument that gold sink of items is the vendor price of them – but when you have something as valuable as T6 or rare items, no one in their right mind would vendor those. So items by themselves when you throw them in a forge are not gold sinks.

If you sell them on the outpost – sure – there is the BL fee that takes it’s 15% cut.

Two words, Elonian wine. Z’s gotta get his drink on. And nobody vendors t6 mats because they’re turning them into exotic greatswords and feeding them to Zommoros. Why do you think people are “vendoring greens and blues” <— (your words as to why we have gold in the game)? Because it doesn’t do any good to feed them to Z.

If they put a .00001% chance on greens and blues fed to Z kicking out a precursor do you think anybody would be vendoring them? Of course they wouldn’t they would feed him every single blue/green they could get their hands on. And that would take all that gold out of the game. Same as it does every time he eats a rare/exo.

wvw is the biggest gold sink imo. i have no hard numbers to back this up, but after speaking to a few commanders from my server, it’s not uncommon for several wvw guild members to go through 10g a night in upgrades/siege. the coin isn’t coming from their personal coffer, but from guild donations.

how the wvw gold sink affects the rest of the open world is another question, however.

We don’t need more gold sinks because gold sinks unfairly harm the poorest players while doing little to reduce gold from the players with the most gold. And the point of goldsinks is to remove gold from the richest players as they are the ones who are most willing and able to pay higher and higher prices which is the source of inflation. This is also why gold sinks can never work.

What we need is a progressive income tax.

Charming Rogue.8071:

Oglaf.1074:

With the price of Precursors, Legendaries definitely need less gold sinks. The Icy Runestones should be removed.

Good idea, give players wanting a legendary 100g more to spend on a precursor. That won’t raise the price of precursors at all. /sarcasm

Yeah because supply/demand is how Precursors are priced. Not like you have a few players having monopoly on them or nothing.

Oh wait…

Oglaf.1074:

Charming Rogue.8071:

Oglaf.1074:

With the price of Precursors, Legendaries definitely need less gold sinks. The Icy Runestones should be removed.

Good idea, give players wanting a legendary 100g more to spend on a precursor. That won’t raise the price of precursors at all. /sarcasm

Yeah because supply/demand is how Precursors are priced. Not like you have a few players having monopoly on them or nothing.

Oh wait…

I’d love for you to let me know where you got the evidence to back up this statement you just made as if it’s a fact.

I mean for you to state this as an obvious fact, you have to have some hard, concrete evidence right?

Oglaf.1074:

Charming Rogue.8071:

Oglaf.1074:

With the price of Precursors, Legendaries definitely need less gold sinks. The Icy Runestones should be removed.

Good idea, give players wanting a legendary 100g more to spend on a precursor. That won’t raise the price of precursors at all. /sarcasm

Yeah because supply/demand is how Precursors are priced. Not like you have a few players having monopoly on them or nothing.

Oh wait…

People are buying them at the current price, there is demand there. We also know the drop rate for them is tiny. Whether they are being manipulated or not is irrelevant when the supply is tiny and people are STILL buying them at the current price…still supply/demand, the only thing the possible manipulation does is get it to the max price a buyer will pay (ie the highest demand)

Ellisande.5218:

We don’t need more gold sinks because gold sinks unfairly harm the poorest players while doing little to reduce gold from the players with the most gold. And the point of goldsinks is to remove gold from the richest players as they are the ones who are most willing and able to pay higher and higher prices which is the source of inflation. This is also why gold sinks can never work.

What we need is a progressive income tax.

How does a gold sink harm a poor player?

WP cost / Armor Repair / TP Fees are very small sinks, encountered by most players, but they are small sinks, the impact is minimal.

T3 armor is a large sink, Commander is a large sink…. but the existence of these things do not harm anyone, though they may be out of reach for the ‘poor’ player.

The purpose of a sink is to make players want to pour money into a channel that removes the money from the economy.

Olfinbedwere.5049:

Vol.5241:

The forge is not a gold sink.
Sure, if you make the argument that gold sink of items is the vendor price of them – but when you have something as valuable as T6 or rare items, no one in their right mind would vendor those. So items by themselves when you throw them in a forge are not gold sinks.

If you sell them on the outpost – sure – there is the BL fee that takes it’s 15% cut.

Vol.5241:

The forge is not a gold sink.
Sure, if you make the argument that gold sink of items is the vendor price of them – but when you have something as valuable as T6 or rare items, no one in their right mind would vendor those. So items by themselves when you throw them in a forge are not gold sinks.

If you sell them on the outpost – sure – there is the BL fee that takes it’s 15% cut.

Two words, Elonian wine. Z’s gotta get his drink on. And nobody vendors t6 mats because they’re turning them into exotic greatswords and feeding them to Zommoros. Why do you think people are “vendoring greens and blues” <— (your words as to why we have gold in the game)? Because it doesn’t do any good to feed them to Z.

If they put a .00001% chance on greens and blues fed to Z kicking out a precursor do you think anybody would be vendoring them? Of course they wouldn’t they would feed him every single blue/green they could get their hands on. And that would take all that gold out of the game. Same as it does every time he eats a rare/exo.

Elonian wine is a specific item with certain uses. Yes, that item alone would be a gold sink, but I’m not talking about that. Cores are not a gold sink. T6 mats are not a gold sink. Throwing rares and exotics in the forge are not a gold sink. I think you are getting confused as to what is a gold sink and what is not.

Vol.5241:

Olfinbedwere.5049:

Vol.5241:

Keep in mind that gold sinks are transactions that take gold out of the economy – not items..

Why not count items? Items = gold. You counted them as a source of gold, “There are thousands of players playing and vendoring their greens/blues..” If people are cranking items into the Forge trying for a precursor or just trying for upgrades, that’s removing potential “gold”, it’s vendor credit value, from the game.

Transactions that take items out of the game take gold out of the game. Or people salvaging and crafting depending on the vendor value of the original vs the product, there is probably usually a loss of “gold” or value. That’s a gold sink. Craft mats purchased from vendors are another gold sink, and training manuals, and retraining, I retrain about once every two weeks.

And harvesting tools, salvaging kits, food. This game has plenty of gold sinks.

The forge is not a gold sink.
Sure, if you make the argument that gold sink of items is the vendor price of them – but when you have something as valuable as T6 or rare items, no one in their right mind would vendor those. So items by themselves when you throw them in a forge are not gold sinks.

If you sell them on the outpost – sure – there is the BL fee that takes it’s 15% cut.

Forge is a gold sink. It is like a craps table or blackjack table in a casino. It is designed for the “house” to win out overtime. I am positive that the value of goods put into it versus the output is -eV.

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Vol.5241:

Olfinbedwere.5049:

Vol.5241:

Keep in mind that gold sinks are transactions that take gold out of the economy – not items..

Why not count items? Items = gold. You counted them as a source of gold, “There are thousands of players playing and vendoring their greens/blues..” If people are cranking items into the Forge trying for a precursor or just trying for upgrades, that’s removing potential “gold”, it’s vendor credit value, from the game.

Transactions that take items out of the game take gold out of the game. Or people salvaging and crafting depending on the vendor value of the original vs the product, there is probably usually a loss of “gold” or value. That’s a gold sink. Craft mats purchased from vendors are another gold sink, and training manuals, and retraining, I retrain about once every two weeks.

And harvesting tools, salvaging kits, food. This game has plenty of gold sinks.

The forge is not a gold sink.
Sure, if you make the argument that gold sink of items is the vendor price of them – but when you have something as valuable as T6 or rare items, no one in their right mind would vendor those. So items by themselves when you throw them in a forge are not gold sinks.

If you sell them on the outpost – sure – there is the BL fee that takes it’s 15% cut.

Forge is a gold sink. It is like a craps table or blackjack table in a casino. It is designed for the “house” to win out overtime. I am positive that the value of goods put into it versus the output is -eV.

The forge on a whole is not a gold sink. Sure, if you’re using wine to upconvert. But I assume you’re talking about gambling.

Explain to me how using the forge, aside from upconverting, removes gold out of the economy.

If Anet implements player housing, that would be an incredible (and necessary) gold sink. It could be a tiered system where the initial tier to just GET a house is small, but if you were to add all the upgrades (merchant, crafting stations, armorsmiths, weaponsmiths, etc.), the total would be huge.

Rich players would dump cash into buying everything they could because they have the money to spend on something useful and poor players would buy just what they need.

The largest gold sinks are the ones that impact the greatest number of players. The WP and repair fees are a GREAT example of this. While these sinks are small, they affect every player on every server in the entire game. Player housing could potentially have the same impact, but it’s not something anyone “needs” as all of those services are available elsewhere. It’s just something people want.

I like the idea of Player Housing.

Many people will complain that they don’t want more gold sinks, but I feel they are necessary to the overall health of the economy in a game. As John Smith stated in another thread, the key is to balance the faucets and the sinks. If those are in balance, inflation will be kept to a minimum.

Vol.5241:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Vol.5241:

Olfinbedwere.5049:

Vol.5241:

Keep in mind that gold sinks are transactions that take gold out of the economy – not items..

Why not count items? Items = gold. You counted them as a source of gold, “There are thousands of players playing and vendoring their greens/blues..” If people are cranking items into the Forge trying for a precursor or just trying for upgrades, that’s removing potential “gold”, it’s vendor credit value, from the game.

Transactions that take items out of the game take gold out of the game. Or people salvaging and crafting depending on the vendor value of the original vs the product, there is probably usually a loss of “gold” or value. That’s a gold sink. Craft mats purchased from vendors are another gold sink, and training manuals, and retraining, I retrain about once every two weeks.

And harvesting tools, salvaging kits, food. This game has plenty of gold sinks.

The forge is not a gold sink.
Sure, if you make the argument that gold sink of items is the vendor price of them – but when you have something as valuable as T6 or rare items, no one in their right mind would vendor those. So items by themselves when you throw them in a forge are not gold sinks.

If you sell them on the outpost – sure – there is the BL fee that takes it’s 15% cut.

Forge is a gold sink. It is like a craps table or blackjack table in a casino. It is designed for the “house” to win out overtime. I am positive that the value of goods put into it versus the output is -eV.

The forge on a whole is not a gold sink. Sure, if you’re using wine to upconvert. But I assume you’re talking about gambling.

Explain to me how using the forge, aside from upconverting, removes gold out of the economy.

Okay,

When I lack better things to do with my money I sometimes buy crap out of the TP just to throw in the forge to see if I get more coins out than I put in. Sometimes I get an item like Sigil of Bloodlust and make a profit. Most of the time I am going to air on an item that is profitable.

Fools like myself who have a fetish on crapshoot gambling do take gold out of the system because I have made a transaction that has a 15% tax on it from one side.

And, I am not the sole degenerate mystic forge gambler in the game

I am not going to argue that is a complete gold sink or anything. But it does have that effect.

I can understand that, but that indirectly makes the forge a gold sink. There is no question the outpost is a gold sink in of itself, but the forge is not. Merely conducting transactions on the outpost act as a gold sink due to fees, while merely combining on the forge does not – that’s pretty much my main argument.

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Vol.5241:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Vol.5241:

Olfinbedwere.5049:

Vol.5241:

Keep in mind that gold sinks are transactions that take gold out of the economy – not items..

Why not count items? Items = gold. You counted them as a source of gold, “There are thousands of players playing and vendoring their greens/blues..” If people are cranking items into the Forge trying for a precursor or just trying for upgrades, that’s removing potential “gold”, it’s vendor credit value, from the game.

Transactions that take items out of the game take gold out of the game. Or people salvaging and crafting depending on the vendor value of the original vs the product, there is probably usually a loss of “gold” or value. That’s a gold sink. Craft mats purchased from vendors are another gold sink, and training manuals, and retraining, I retrain about once every two weeks.

And harvesting tools, salvaging kits, food. This game has plenty of gold sinks.

The forge is not a gold sink.
Sure, if you make the argument that gold sink of items is the vendor price of them – but when you have something as valuable as T6 or rare items, no one in their right mind would vendor those. So items by themselves when you throw them in a forge are not gold sinks.

If you sell them on the outpost – sure – there is the BL fee that takes it’s 15% cut.

Forge is a gold sink. It is like a craps table or blackjack table in a casino. It is designed for the “house” to win out overtime. I am positive that the value of goods put into it versus the output is -eV.

The forge on a whole is not a gold sink. Sure, if you’re using wine to upconvert. But I assume you’re talking about gambling.

Explain to me how using the forge, aside from upconverting, removes gold out of the economy.

Okay,

When I lack better things to do with my money I sometimes buy crap out of the TP just to throw in the forge to see if I get more coins out than I put in. Sometimes I get an item like Sigil of Bloodlust and make a profit. Most of the time I am going to air on an item that is profitable.

Fools like myself who have a fetish on crapshoot gambling do take gold out of the system because I have made a transaction that has a 15% tax on it from one side.

And, I am not the sole degenerate mystic forge gambler in the game

I am not going to argue that is a complete gold sink or anything. But it does have that effect.

Going to split hairs for a second here just because I think it keeps the discussion on track: In this example the Forge is not the sink, the TP is the sink. You got money via method X, that money passed from you to the players selling items via the TP (15% sink) and you take those Goods out of circulation via the Forge.

Goods enter the market via a Faucet (crafting from gathered mats, loot drops, etc.) What the Forge is doing here is maintaining the value of the Goods by removing them from circulation. The fact that those rares can be salvaged for Ecto also preserves the value of those goods, the same way the forge does, but that’s not a sink either.

The purpose of a Sink is to take currency out of circulation.

Vol.5241:

Gamble chests. % chance to reward you globs, rares, exotics, skins, but most of the time reward you an item that vendors for less than what it costs to gamble.

Wanted to go back to this gem of a statement:

How many people would play with a 1G gamble chest if you had a chance of getting:

- 5 Unidentified Dyes
- 3-5 Ecto
- Black Lion Key
- RNG Lodestone
- 3-5 t6 mats
- etc….

Essentially, give it a gamble value that returns between 50% and 150% the value of what you put in…. Over time, if the returned goods held a value of 75%, but gave you an alternate method of getting at some high end items, and had the potential to pay out in premium goods…. would you gamble?

I know I personally spam the snot out of Lost Orrian Jewelry Boxes, but those things feel like a faucet to me because I can convert a non-liquid currency (Karma) to a liquid currency (coin.)

CassieGold.7460:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Vol.5241:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Vol.5241:

Olfinbedwere.5049:

Vol.5241:

Keep in mind that gold sinks are transactions that take gold out of the economy – not items..

Why not count items? Items = gold. You counted them as a source of gold, “There are thousands of players playing and vendoring their greens/blues..” If people are cranking items into the Forge trying for a precursor or just trying for upgrades, that’s removing potential “gold”, it’s vendor credit value, from the game.

Transactions that take items out of the game take gold out of the game. Or people salvaging and crafting depending on the vendor value of the original vs the product, there is probably usually a loss of “gold” or value. That’s a gold sink. Craft mats purchased from vendors are another gold sink, and training manuals, and retraining, I retrain about once every two weeks.

And harvesting tools, salvaging kits, food. This game has plenty of gold sinks.

The forge is not a gold sink.
Sure, if you make the argument that gold sink of items is the vendor price of them – but when you have something as valuable as T6 or rare items, no one in their right mind would vendor those. So items by themselves when you throw them in a forge are not gold sinks.

If you sell them on the outpost – sure – there is the BL fee that takes it’s 15% cut.

Forge is a gold sink. It is like a craps table or blackjack table in a casino. It is designed for the “house” to win out overtime. I am positive that the value of goods put into it versus the output is -eV.

The forge on a whole is not a gold sink. Sure, if you’re using wine to upconvert. But I assume you’re talking about gambling.

Explain to me how using the forge, aside from upconverting, removes gold out of the economy.

Okay,

When I lack better things to do with my money I sometimes buy crap out of the TP just to throw in the forge to see if I get more coins out than I put in. Sometimes I get an item like Sigil of Bloodlust and make a profit. Most of the time I am going to air on an item that is profitable.

Fools like myself who have a fetish on crapshoot gambling do take gold out of the system because I have made a transaction that has a 15% tax on it from one side.

And, I am not the sole degenerate mystic forge gambler in the game

I am not going to argue that is a complete gold sink or anything. But it does have that effect.

Going to split hairs for a second here just because I think it keeps the discussion on track: In this example the Forge is not the sink, the TP is the sink. You got money via method X, that money passed from you to the players selling items via the TP (15% sink) and you take those Goods out of circulation via the Forge.

Goods enter the market via a Faucet (crafting from gathered mats, loot drops, etc.) What the Forge is doing here is maintaining the value of the Goods by removing them from circulation. The fact that those rares can be salvaged for Ecto also preserves the value of those goods, the same way the forge does, but that’s not a sink either.

The purpose of a Sink is to take currency out of circulation.

Well, it is a two fold gold sink. You need to fetch input items for output items.

Besides farming, you rely on the TP for input items for the mystic forge. I can argue that without the mystic forge I wouldn’t be shelling out coins that get caught up in the tax process.

I may be very wrong on this so please exlain me my fault but: Isn’t almost every item you buy and soulbind a gold sink???

If you for example buy a precursor, storm, you exchanged your gold for something that has a value of 150g. No complains there. It was a simple exchange. (Except for the listing fee of 15% nobody lost or gained something) But now by equipping it you make it soulbound and untradeable! You yourself just lost 150g. That’s how i see it.

The mystic forge is rather a lottery than a gold sink. You have chances to get items that inherit a greater value and chances that you get things with lower value. You either lose gold or gain gold, therefor i think you can’t overall call it a goldsink because chances are that you might earn gold.

Btw selling stuff to the vendor is neither creating nor destroying money. It’s a simple exchange. If you don’t sell them you still have the valie they’d be worth.

That’s how i think about it, please note that i don’t have an economics degree nor am i very into economics so mind me please^^

Lucas of the Desert.2165:

I may be very wrong on this so please exlain me my fault but: Isn’t almost every item you buy and soulbind a gold sink???

If you for example buy a precursor, storm, you exchanged your gold for something that has a value of 150g. No complains there. It was a simple exchange. (Except for the listing fee of 15% nobody lost or gained something) But now by equipping it you make it soulbound and untradeable! You yourself just lost 150g. That’s how i see it.

The mystic forge is rather a lottery than a gold sink. You have chances to get items that inherit a greater value and chances that you get things with lower value. You either lose gold or gain gold, therefor i think you can’t overall call it a goldsink because chances are that you might earn gold.

Btw selling stuff to the vendor is neither creating nor destroying money. It’s a simple exchange. If you don’t sell them you still have the valie they’d be worth.

That’s how i think about it, please note that i don’t have an economics degree nor am i very into economics so mind me please^^

In your transaction, the gold sink is the outpost fee. That gold goes no where. It’s lost.

But the gold that you lost due to your purchase went to someone else. They now have the 150g minus the 15%. That gold is still in the game and still in the economy.

Your argument on the forge is incorrect – this has nothing to do with the value of gold that you could sell your items that you get from the forge.

Is the forge an item sink? Absolutely – an extremely effective one, more so than soulbound items. But it is nothing near a gold sink as it is.

Remember, a sink is something that removes the object in the economy and is accessed by no one.

Gold sinks in this game – outpost fee, siege from merchant, elonian wine, runestones and more

Items in this game – forge, soulbound/account bound items

Lucas of the Desert.2165:

I may be very wrong on this so please exlain me my fault but: Isn’t almost every item you buy and soulbind a gold sink???

If you for example buy a precursor, storm, you exchanged your gold for something that has a value of 150g. No complains there. It was a simple exchange. (Except for the listing fee of 15% nobody lost or gained something) But now by equipping it you make it soulbound and untradeable! You yourself just lost 150g. That’s how i see it.

The mystic forge is rather a lottery than a gold sink. You have chances to get items that inherit a greater value and chances that you get things with lower value. You either lose gold or gain gold, therefor i think you can’t overall call it a goldsink because chances are that you might earn gold.

Btw selling stuff to the vendor is neither creating nor destroying money. It’s a simple exchange. If you don’t sell them you still have the valie they’d be worth.

That’s how i think about it, please note that i don’t have an economics degree nor am i very into economics so mind me please^^

Soul binding an item is not a sink, here’s why:

Let’s say there is 1,000 gold circulating in a very small economy. You have 100g, and another player has an item that they are selling for 100g. You buy that item, the other player receives 85g (15% in TP fees) and you receive the item. There is now 985g circulating in the economy.

Now you soul bind the item. There is still 985g circulating in the economy. You have not removed any additional money from the economy.

Vol.5241:

Elonian wine is a specific item with certain uses. Yes, that item alone would be a gold sink, but I’m not talking about that. Cores are not a gold sink. T6 mats are not a gold sink. Throwing rares and exotics in the forge are not a gold sink. I think you are getting confused as to what is a gold sink and what is not.

I half think you’re trolling me now. I’m not confused. We just seem to disagree that removing items = removing gold. My stance is that most of the gold in the game comes from vendoring stuff. And that anything that stops people vendoring an item keeps that gold from entering the economy. The destruction of items is the same, in my opinion, as the destruction of gold. Or anything else that keeps players from vendoring the item. It removes potential gold, which is what every item that drops is.

If only exotics worked for getting precursors everybody would vendor their rares. Destroying them in the forge is exactly the same as vendoring them and then throwing that coin at skritts.

Rares and exotics will never be vendored.
Blues are always vendored and would be a stupid waste to forge
Greens may be vendored and forged, but I suspect that forges happens very rarely, so that would not really be considered a gold sink.

So yes, while I do agree that destroying items in general removes potential gold from vendors, if those same people were not to destroy those items, they wouldn’t be vendoring them anyway. Rares/exotics would be put on the outpost. Greens/blues wouldn’t even be in the discussion since they are very rarely put in the forge.

Lots of ppl forge greens. I for one must throw at least 50 a day in there.

CassieGold.7460:

Lucas of the Desert.2165:

I may be very wrong on this so please exlain me my fault but: Isn’t almost every item you buy and soulbind a gold sink???

If you for example buy a precursor, storm, you exchanged your gold for something that has a value of 150g. No complains there. It was a simple exchange. (Except for the listing fee of 15% nobody lost or gained something) But now by equipping it you make it soulbound and untradeable! You yourself just lost 150g. That’s how i see it.

The mystic forge is rather a lottery than a gold sink. You have chances to get items that inherit a greater value and chances that you get things with lower value. You either lose gold or gain gold, therefor i think you can’t overall call it a goldsink because chances are that you might earn gold.

Btw selling stuff to the vendor is neither creating nor destroying money. It’s a simple exchange. If you don’t sell them you still have the valie they’d be worth.

That’s how i think about it, please note that i don’t have an economics degree nor am i very into economics so mind me please^^

Soul binding an item is not a sink, here’s why:

Let’s say there is 1,000 gold circulating in a very small economy. You have 100g, and another player has an item that they are selling for 100g. You buy that item, the other player receives 85g (15% in TP fees) and you receive the item. There is now 985g circulating in the economy.

Now you soul bind the item. There is still 985g circulating in the economy. You have not removed any additional money from the economy.

How do you count gold? Do you count the value of items in or not? If not then you are completely right. But if you see it’s value as just another currency of gold then you are wrong.

If i buy an item, which would just be a currency exchange then, the only gold that is lost is that of the trading fees, but then there would be another sink in me soulbinding.

Imagine someone owning a dusk in that little economy (and let’s asume it’s price would be fix) so there is 1000g in the economy and one dusk (500g). Grand total of 1500g. If i now buy the dusk 75g is lost but there’s still 1425g in the economy. By equiping it i take the dusk out of the tradeable items —> it disappears from the economy. There’s now 925g left in it.

That’s how i see it at least

Lucas of the Desert.2165:

CassieGold.7460:

Lucas of the Desert.2165:

I may be very wrong on this so please exlain me my fault but: Isn’t almost every item you buy and soulbind a gold sink???

If you for example buy a precursor, storm, you exchanged your gold for something that has a value of 150g. No complains there. It was a simple exchange. (Except for the listing fee of 15% nobody lost or gained something) But now by equipping it you make it soulbound and untradeable! You yourself just lost 150g. That’s how i see it.

The mystic forge is rather a lottery than a gold sink. You have chances to get items that inherit a greater value and chances that you get things with lower value. You either lose gold or gain gold, therefor i think you can’t overall call it a goldsink because chances are that you might earn gold.

Btw selling stuff to the vendor is neither creating nor destroying money. It’s a simple exchange. If you don’t sell them you still have the valie they’d be worth.

That’s how i think about it, please note that i don’t have an economics degree nor am i very into economics so mind me please^^

Soul binding an item is not a sink, here’s why:

Let’s say there is 1,000 gold circulating in a very small economy. You have 100g, and another player has an item that they are selling for 100g. You buy that item, the other player receives 85g (15% in TP fees) and you receive the item. There is now 985g circulating in the economy.

Now you soul bind the item. There is still 985g circulating in the economy. You have not removed any additional money from the economy.

How do you count gold? Do you count the value of items in or not? If not then you are completely wright. But if you see itm value as just another currency of gold then you are wrong.

If i buy an item, which would just be a currncy exchange then, the only gold that is lost is that of the trading fees, but then there would be another sink in me soulbinding.

Imagine someone owning a dusk in that little economy (and let’s asume it’s price would be fix) so there is 1000g in the economy and one dusk (500g). Grand total of 1500g. If i now buy the dusk 75g is lost but there’s still 1425g in the economy. By equiping it i take the dusk out of the tradeable items —> it disappears from the economy. There’s now 925g left in it.

That’s how i see it at least

Here’s why you need a sink in the economy: If there is 1,000g in the economy, that represents all the liquid currency available to purchase items. In your example, where you buy Dusk for 500g, you have half of the coin in existance. It is highly unlikely that an item would be valued at such an astronomical amount.

The purpose of gold sinks is to keep the total amount of liquid currency down relative to the rate at which liquid currency is produced (faucets.)

A quest reward is a Faucet, money is produced from thin air. Drops that are sold to a vendor is another faucet, money produced from thin air.

When we’re talking about gold sinks, we’re only talking about liquid currency. The value of items is relative to the amount of liquid currency in the market.

Essence Snow.3194:

Lots of ppl forge greens. I for one must throw at least 50 a day in there.

^this

Except my #s are lower

@CassieGold i am well aware that we need gold sinks in an economy all i wanted to ask is whether soulbinding is a kind of gold sink or not.

I suppose my example was badly picked, what i wanted to emphasize is that by soulbinding you remove the item value of an item out of the economy which represents some kind of gold sink to me. (Apart from still being able to vendor it which in case lowers the gold taken out by a few silver)

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

Essence Snow.3194:

Lots of ppl forge greens. I for one must throw at least 50 a day in there.

^this

Except my #s are lower

Forging items does not remove currency from the economy, even forging greens. It stops currency from entering the economy, which is a good thing, but it only stops the vendor value of the item from entering the economy.